Inside Sungrow's Global Expansion: Transforming Renewable Energy Markets

Speaker A: Foreigners.

Speaker B: Stuart Mullen here, chief industry officer of the Global Wind Energy Council. And, uh, we are coming to you with an offshore wind podcast from Wind Europe in Madrid. Uh, and actually, I'm joined for the first time in person in the offshore wind podcast by Rebecca Williams, who's not only graced us, who stopped the touring of the showroom floors to come and join us for a podcast, but this is actually the first time we've done a podcast together, uh, in person.

Speaker C: That's right. The last podcast I recorded from the show floor. Uh, I had said that I took Stuart out of the chair, but he just keeps coming back. I can't get rid of him. But it is an exciting moment for us to be here together in person. For those of you who work with G work, you'll know we're spread all across the world, so it's always a delight to be here in person with colleagues.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And so to kick this episode off, actually, it's not just Rebecca and I talking. We actually have invited. We've actually invited a couple of guests today. So we have, from Foodrow, we have the Global Director of offshore wind, uh, Brian Bell, and we also have Julia Root from who is the Offshore Wind Strategy Manager, Europe and Africa. Welcome, Julia and Brian.

Speaker D: Thank you very much for having us. Delighted to be here.

Speaker B: So, to kick off the show, we'd like to get to know you guys a little bit. So first of all, maybe we start with your background. How did you get into while wind power and particularly offshore wind, given that this is an offshore wind podcast. No problem.

Speaker D: I'll start. So, um, as I say, I'm the global director for Offshore Windmills Food Group. I, um, I never wanted a desk job, but the irony is I've had one ever since I left university. Certainly understanding the world, the world around us, what it's formed of and how it behaves all the time, that's always interested me. And of course, talking about geological history, we're talking about, like, billions of years. Um, but after kind of learning about that and trying to apply that knowledge and that interest in industry, I've worked through a number of different sectors, including quarrying, civil engineering, dredging. And then around 2010, I discovered something quite strange called offshore wind. Um, and that kind of piqued my curiosity. And I'd already joined FUBRO at the time as a project manager working on site, so I was able to work in the field away from the desk, um, exploring the world around us. And with a vision of helping clients build these offshore wind farms, which are becoming quite fractionable at the time.

Speaker B: And so we'll get into a little bit of that, uh, uh, detail about, uh, the geologist aspect, the geology aspect of our, uh, offshore wind and how that actually is playing out around the globe and what that means for permitting and site selection, et cetera. A little bit later in the episode. Julia, what about your background? How do you end up in offshore windfall?

Speaker A: Yeah, so my background's actually in oceanography. So that's the physics, the chemistry and biology of the ocean. So always huge curiosity about what's going on in the sea. And that led me to my first role was actually, um, marine scientist. So I started my career working out in the field, working on vessels, doing all sorts of like, hugely interesting projects. Whether it's about energy and infrastructure for environmental purposes, Basically out vessels gathering data, uh, and looking at Earth, what it meant about that particular project. So I think it was around 2009 that I was actually on one of the ground two projects, the Offshore wind farms, doing some, uh, marine mammal mitigation as part of the tile installation process. Um, and seeing these huge infrastructure projects get built was incredible. Um, so that was one of my first encounters. And when I moved on to Fugro, I was actually really inspired by one of my colleagues, Tony, who since retired.

Speaker C: That legendary.

Speaker A: The legendary uncle, uh, Tony, as we like to refer to him. But he really sort of took me under his wing and really mentored me in business development. That was my role at the time and really helped me build this huge understanding of how the industry. And it really just went from there that this is the sector, ah, that I want to be part of.

Speaker C: So can I just ask then, if you've got a geologist and a marine scientist? Brian, have you got a favorite kind of rock structure?

Speaker A: Julia, what's your favorite marine mammal? The older listeners need to know.

Speaker D: It seems quite morbid, but I have chosen the rock that I want on my headstone. I'm not going to tell you, but it will look quite pretty.

Speaker B: Can you say we're dying to find out?

Speaker D: I am.

Speaker B: Okay,

Speaker A: so I'm gonna go with seal. Um, it's not very exciting, but you know what, you see them out at sea, you see them in the harbors, and they just always look really tall. They look like having a nice time. And you know, I just will happily come back in the second life as a seal, there's a strange emerging theme.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Which I will boss over. Um, so first of all, I mean, it's great to have two people that are Seen at the cutting edge and actually have been out in the field. I mean, that sort of technical and field experience must help, uh, immensely in your roles at the moment. But maybe before we dive into that, maybe a little bit about food, grow the company. Brian, uh, I think you were down a bit.

Speaker D: Yeah, certainly. So Fugro is headquartered in the Netherlands. We were founded in the early 1960s and we currently have around 10,000 people spread across offices in 55 countries around the world. Um, we describe ourselves as the world's leading geodata specialist. And usually whenever I say that, the first question I get is, what's geodata? Very simply, geodata is information, intelligence and insights about the composition and condition of the world around us. So in other words, what it's made of, but also how its behavior, uh, and condition changes over time. And that applies both to the natural world, but also built environments as well. That can be bridges, it can be skyscrapers, uh, of course, the offshore in the oil and gas infrastructure and offshore wind farms as well.

Speaker B: And how does that relate to offshore wind? What way? So talk us through how that's related to an offshore wind project.

Speaker D: So our offshore wind journey started in the mid-1990s when we started to support the development cycle, providing, um, geophysical and geotechnical services just to help developers understand the composition of a se, uh, but also to understand the prevalence of wind resource. And there's a number of different data streams we ultimately developed. Ah, but very simply, when someone wants to develop an offshore wind farm, you need to understand the natural environment. Uh, it helps them understand the conditions, the, uh, soil properties, um, meteorological and oceanographic effects, but also the prevalence of biodiversity as well. What marine life is there that could be impacted positively or negatively by, uh, these assets. This investment, um, and the information and the geo data that we acquire, it allows clients both in the public and the private sector. So it could be government agencies as well, trying to identify seabed zones for development. But it could also be developers themselves wanting to design an optimal layout or a wind fog. We provide a number of different services and collect data types just to help refine the engineering concept into a proven layout and design, which of course feeds into the business case. And then it allows the project to progress through, um, maturity, ultimately to construction. But our involvement doesn't stop there. We also support clients in the construction phase, largely to ensure compliance against various specifications or standards. But then you've got the entire 20 to 30 year, uh, lifespan of monitoring an asset to ensure that it complies with its Design, um, expectations and we uh, provide a range of monitoring services, both of the natural environment using the cped, but uh, also the prevalence of limited life as well as monitoring the condition. If we are set all the time.

Speaker C: Ask a question about the data aspect. Because more and more in this world obviously data has become the currency, the lingua franca of everything that controls our lives. When we're thinking about geotechnical, geophysical data, um, uh, and the services that Fugro provides in that area, how does that interrelate with kind of data handling practices? What, what does FUGA own? What do governments own? What does developer own? This is a question I found really interesting from a data perspective.

Speaker A: Okay, so from a data perspective there's two ways to think about it. Um, and it depends what stage of the project you're at. If you're a very early stage project, actually if you're looking at something like a desk based study and really start to understand when you arrive on ten foot mid farm site, there's a lot of existing literature out there that you can tap into and also tap into any internal knowledge that you may have in house from previous work or in the case of geology. There's also a lot of analogous sites that we can kind of help understand at that particular site. Um, a lot of the data that we acquire is owned by the end user. So we acquire it, we analyze it, we interpret it, we send it in the. But ultimately the data is owned by them. But we may take on responsibility for storing that data, uh, and providing access for a certain period of time. But we are dealing with ever increasing quantities that need ever increasing amounts of storage and obviously access to that data as well. Potentially users.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I mean that, that data is, I mean seabed, location of uh, tables within the seabed. And you national security stuff. Do you see many different regulations? I mean your global organization, how are you dealing with the requirements from the various markets?

Speaker D: It is a challenge. Um, certainly when there's a desire for standardization, you need to comply with localization. I wouldn't say there's a one size sort of model. It usually involves early engagement, various authorities, just to understand what it is they're trying to achieve, what they're trying to protect, trying to save God. I mean ultimately everybody has to comply with the laws of a certain jurisdiction. Um, but at the same time it's good to have industry bodies like G where we can amplify a certain message, perhaps the, the desired approaches involved.

Speaker B: And do you guys have a track record? Back in 2009 so Iraq building journey

Speaker D: started in the mid-1990s with 1919.

Speaker B: Yeah. So um, now we see offshoot in being taken up in market. At what stage does market engage with Google? Is it right at the beginning? Is it the government that is asking you? So is it the government that's asking you for the um, the to do their uh, analysis of uh, the seedbed and conditions for the framing? Is that where it starts? Is that where they bring your board in right at the start of the project?

Speaker D: Yes. So the model varies from country to country. Um, some are government led, but yeah, government agencies who are just identifying seabed zones, they want to provide a uh, certain data package to make a site attractive to a developer. Um, in other countries it's all developer led where just maybe an area of seabed is identified and then it falls upon the developer to characterize the site as we call it, where they will acquire all the data that they need to mature their design, to prepare for permit applications and just to ensure that this site is suitable for development. So um, it varies from country to country. Um, we are seeing um, let's say a lot more standardized approaches in terms of um, decision gates and the types of data that is acquired at each stage. Um, but there is still a degree

Speaker C: of flexibility and just thinking about differences then between newer uh, markets, emerging markets you mentioned there that we're seeing maybe more standardization in terms of the data that's collected. But um, there must be differences in terms of how much data those countries already have at their disposal. Developers that are acting in those countries. If you're in a new market for offshore wind that hasn't had that history of an oil and gas regime, how would you kind of go through the process of getting the different data sets that you would need to develop in those areas.

Speaker A: And uh, maybe to give you a

Speaker C: live example, I mean we've been talking to the South African government a lot recently. They don't really still understand the resource that they've got when it comes to their seabed conditions, etc. So uh, just a live example there of a country that I know is going through this journey at the moment.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think where you've maybe not had um, any kind of historical maritime industry, there's maybe still opportunities to kind of look at what data you do have. So there might have been academic research that's held by universities, there might have been upgrades and expansions. So anything that starts to give you some insights you, you might encounter in the shallow zone, you might be able to use satellite based Data to kind of understand that nearshore environment, which is obviously very critical. And so you can start to build some picture also you can start to understand what you don't know. So when you start to understand, um, what you don't know, start to shape the campaign of what data you do need to acquire. And based on what you do know, start to get the right sensors, the right techniques to gather that data. Um, and, and also you might need to think about things like weather. Some markets are very, very seasonal. So you may need to look at, you know, summer campaign, may be able to work all year round. So this then starts to feed into the planning side of things.

Speaker C: And just to ask a very basic question, because we do have people listening who are foremost experts in offshore wind,

Speaker A: but we also have people on things

Speaker C: who want to know more about offshore wind. Um, how do you get the data? What's the physical process of doing that? And that data collection paint a picture for us of how that happens at Fugra.

Speaker D: We'll take this one together.

Speaker B: Start with the wrong swing out of the site.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker D: I think the easiest way of describing this is that, uh, everything scales up over time. So I think we all recognize at the very beginning, maybe you don't know very much, maybe you don't know anything. So, but, but also the, the effort and the budget that maybe people have available is relatively modest. So expectations need to be managed and everybody needs to be realistic. So very much in, uh, the early stages, it's largely about, as Julia said earlier, gathering data that maybe already exists to start to build an understanding, really a model of what this site looks like. And then it becomes a question of maybe repeatedly asking ourselves, is this fit for purpose? Is this sufficient for what the current end user actually needs? And that end user changes over time. It doesn't automatically lead to an offshore wind developer. Um, it could be a government agency. Just want to understand, is this particular site in the right location, a suitable wind resource? Is the seabed conditions problematic in any way? I don't really care about the final layout of an offshore wind farm, but I just want to understand how attractive this site is. Um, and we can work within those confines, not just on our own, but with a broad network of technical experts and other engineering, um, consultants right across the industry. And together we build a picture which satisfies the question of is this right for your needs? But then at the next phase, you start to layer up the data, um, and that involves, uh, much more technically complex and, yes, much more expensive assets. This is when you can Physically deploy equipment um, into the sea to measure the available wind resource or start to perform maybe geophysical surveys just to understand um, kind of changes in um, soil conditions. But then you marry that with geotechnical campaigns to actually extract um, soil properties just to understand and start to refine engineering designs. So we layer up throughout the development phase, at least we layer up an understanding of the site at each stage. And then as the end user changes as developers then take over, that's when we start to learn more about maybe the site that they want to develop a particular layout. And that's when we can acquire location specific data around individual turbines or cable routes. And it helps them just to quantify the total cost but also the engineering solution as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, just on that. So when you're doing your site layout and you're looking at turbo positions, uh, I mean there must be optimal like you've got the wind conditions but there must be particularly in the offshore space. It must be your optimal seabed conditions. So when you're juxtaposing the um, best wind position versus the best seabed conditions, what wins out?

Speaker D: That's a good question.

Speaker A: It's a very good question. And maybe it's a next time you've got a developer on maybe get there get there in points as well. But I guess from our perspective, um, you know there's a lot to consider but a lot is around de risking the site of which you ultimately end up putting the turbine. So things that you want to watch out for are unstable layers in the sediment. So the sub seabed, you know, below, um, seabed that challenges during installation. So things that are particularly tricky and things with where you're expecting rock, um, or you've got boulders and you might risk damaging a monopile or a pile or an anchor if you're trying to install it. So if you've got a site that's got a lot of boulders, if you can move a turbine slightly from an area with very dense boulders to slightly less boulders, your installation will be, you're reducing your is substantially.

Speaker C: Would that be the same for other unstable conditions like quicksand? Is that a risk or are you going too deep? That that's not a problem.

Speaker D: Certainly, um, certainly soft ground. Um, any type of soil condition which is not suitable for a turbine foundation, um, that's where people need to think again. Um, in fact you know most people either don't realize or fail to remember that an offshore wind farm is in power station in the sink.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: And if you just described it as that to A layperson, you'd think you were crazy. You're building an entire power station in the sea. So there's a huge range of technical factors that have to be considered. But you're absolutely right. Seabed topography which is the size and shape of the seabed. Where are there potential risky areas where turbines or cables can't be noticed? Um, in fact the very first project I was involved in that I mentioned at the introduction, I won't go into details but it's a well known wind farm in the Irish Sea. Um, I was on site project managing the geotechnical campaign. Um, and partway through that uh, exercise we encountered a completely different type of rock than what everybody previously believed them to be. And there was a lot of back and forth, uh, a lot of dialogue. This was 2010 when VSAT communications wasn't that brilliant so we couldn't facetime each other. But there was a lot of dialogue back and forwards from the experts on the beach in we got our location right. Have we um, misdescribed the rock? But actually we hadn't. And over the next two or three weeks we were able to map out um, an entire area where in the end turbines could never be placed. So that wind farm has quite an unusual scale because it was not possible or conducive to install uh, them.

Speaker A: Just to add to that we've talked a lot about geology actually you get human maize hazards on the seabed as well that may m impact turbines or things that you need to address before you can move to installation. So you might find reps on the site or you might find um, uxo so unexploded incidents that you have to mitigate and manage to make sure that it's not a risk project.

Speaker B: Uh, just on that. So if we look to the difference, uh, GWICK has just chipped off a floating industry accelerator program. So we're trying to uh, I guess remove some of the roadblocks for floating wind projects. And I know that this is still some way future to try to get these projects in the water on scale. But from a uh, geotech ocean uh, science perspective is there significant difference between a floating offshore wind path and a path? What are some of the technical challenges that we should be aware of between these two different technology types?

Speaker A: Regional. I think one of the things to think about is uh, the footprint and we're actually going to be the sea length. So we're very used to dealing with piles and jacket structures. We're obviously moving towards anchored platforms and if you think of the spatial footprint, um, you're going to a much wider spread, so potentially much greater variability, um, and lots more touch points with the seabed that all need to be understood. So that project, you know, when it's installed, certified,

Speaker B: would you expect it to have like any. We see some impact on. Does that have an impact?

Speaker A: It's certainly something that needs to be sort of assessed and understood properly when you're at the very early stages of the project. And that all goes back to your data gathering. So the different tools and techniques you've got, um, to do your environment baseline surveys, very important to do marine mammal monitoring, to kind of understand what's there and that a lot of that can be done to Google acoustic techniques. So these incredible sensors you can split in the water and leave there and they will detect passing marine mammals going through the area and you can determine what they are. Sometimes you see how many by the vocalizations are recorded on the instrumentation.

Speaker C: I mean it's absolutely fascinating to understand more about this and we could ask so many questions about floating and also cable interactions and all of these things that we need to unpack. I'm learning a lot about this topic today.

Speaker B: Um, today we've also got to focus on the APAC market. So is there anything special that you've seen? Because, I mean Europe's pretty well established now. Is there anything special that you've seen in the APAC market that the market should be aware of?

Speaker D: Um, I think it's widely recognized that APAC is seen as the future engine of growth, um, for energy, full stop. Um, certainly not as economies mature, increasingly industrialize, not invest in infrastructure. Um, and I think, you know, we've seen the example that China has set the world from just a wind and a broader energy point of view. Um, but it's been fascinating to see the rise, particularly in offshore wind, uh, interests, uh, in countries like Japan, South Korea, Australia. And I know you've got a soft spot for Australia.

Speaker B: If you didn't mention it, I would.

Speaker D: Um, but even, you know, Vietnam, the Philippines, you know, there's more and more countries are now realizing the potential. Um, I think, you know, in a region like apac, the physical and geographical size, it doesn't work against the region. But I think, um, if I had a wish list, I'd love to see maybe more integration and collaboration between countries to reach maybe a more standard or consistent approach. But each country needs to find its own way. Um, and I think certainly it's the interesting dynamic that everybody has to try now.

Speaker B: Sounds like a Very good approach. The regional collaboration is straight from the GWICK in book. Yeah, exactly. Um, so unfortunately we've reached the end of the main body. But uh, every time we have guests on the show, we ask our guests what's caught your attention over the last few days or maybe last weekend. Uh, Judy, maybe I'll start with you. Try you the spot first.

Speaker A: Wow. Well, I actually can. We haven't talked much about grid and so I'm actually uh, I know people talked about socks and things like that. I'm going to talk about bring us back to grid, um, because it's something that kind of sometimes feels very forgotten about. Um, I was sitting in London session state, I was 14 here live from Wind Europe and someone has said actually we have technology we need. Uh, about the grid. We've been so focused on development we've kind of forgotten about, but we have all the technology we need to get

Speaker D: there with the grid.

Speaker A: But what's needed is that holistic overview of what we need. Obviously this is talking in a European perspective. I think this. Across regional places.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I hear the commission's also coming out with some new recommendations on this topic. We at G work, ah, just also about to do a bit more work in the green topic. So, um, absolutely. We haven't forgotten about it actually Alex,

Speaker B: this is where you had planned the actual global grid modernization initiative for GWICK here. So thanks for reading. Thanks very much.

Speaker D: You know, for me one word meant resilience. Um, yes, the optional wind sector has been through bit of a journey over the past 12 to 18 months. Um, there is a lot of cautious optimism there, but there's also, you know, the players are getting back on their feet. They recognize that maybe the global rush that uh, we witnessed in the early 2000s, um, yes, that allowed the industry to rapidly mature and to scale up. But as Julia said, we need to move hand in hand with M stakeholders right across public sector, private sector, developers, operators, ESOs as well and the supply chain all need to scale up together. And there's a genuine, I feel it, a genuine um, sense of determination, resilience. I want to see this. Uh, and I think that's a testament to the foundation that the sector's built upon. People understand what needs to be achieved. Yes, there will always be peaks and troughs in any cycle, in any market. Um, people can see the long term vision and they also. It's just how we keep moving forward and some days may be better than others, but it's an online journey long may continue.

Speaker B: Rebecca what about yourself? You got anything to finish with?

Speaker C: Well, just the conference has been awash with the talk of the celebrity of Pedro Sanchez yesterday and his interventionist speech. But, you know, slight disappointment that we didn't see an unveiling of more details in the Spanish auction regime. I know that some people were hoping for that, but still some time left in this conference. Still a couple days to serve run, so. Pedro, you're listening. I know you made your speech yesterday, but may you want to come back and update the good people here at Win Europe on the next step. Sir?

Speaker B: Yeah. What's it like to have a conference where you're, uh, expecting to have a big announcement that doesn't come exactly? Um, yeah, sorry, Lily d', Ambrosio, that was not directly reported to you. And so for myself, we were having the Global Wind Report launch on Monday, and I think that as an industry, we could get caught up with, uh, sentiment and we can all see it. So that when things don't work and when there's challenges in markets, faced with challenges, but we did 165 gigawatts last year. Um, I guess the heavy lifting has been done by two fewer markets. So we need to get that level of volume into the other markets and drive growth in the other markets. But I think there's reasons to be optimistic as an industry, and I think sometimes we forget that. And anyone that's been in the industry since the 2000s, I mean, think what you were doing back in the early 2000s, and the scale that we're doing it at now, it's just amazing. And so, you know, in another 10 years time to think what the scale is going to be, then I think it's going to be unprecedented. So it's really great for me as a ministry continue to grow. I think that brings us to the end of the episode. So if you have liked today's episode, please remember to, uh, rate and review the episode. It actually helps a lot with the algorithms. Brian and Julia, thank you very much for your time. Rebecca, it's actually great to do these in person. Maybe we can do another one with the stars align. Thank you very much for listening. We'll catch you next time.