The Naval Aviation Ready Room Podcast with Legends and Leaders · 2026-08-04 · 1h 7m
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
64 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
This episode features retired Navy aviator Captain Royce Williams discussing one of naval aviation's most extraordinary and long-classified combat engagements. On November 18, 1952, Williams found himself in a 35-minute dogfight against seven MiG-15s while flying an F9F Panther from the USS Oriskany during the Korean War. Outnumbered and flying a slower, less maneuverable aircraft, Williams leveraged superior turn radius and stick-and-rudder airmanship to shoot down four Soviet-flown MiGs and damage others. The story remained classified for decades due to NSA surveillance capabilities revealed during the encounter, with Admiral Briscoe briefing Williams under strict secrecy. Williams explains the tactical decisions that allowed him to overcome the numerical disadvantage, including exploiting the MiGs' higher speed which forced them to execute wider turns. He also details how his aircraft suffered catastrophic damage, leaving him with only elevator control surfaces to fly the badly damaged Panther back to the carrier. The episode explores Williams' full career arc from South Dakota youth through World War II flying Hellcats and Corsairs, his transition to jets, and the leadership lessons from his remarkable combat experience.
Williams was flying an F9F Panther jet fighter launched from the USS Oriskany during a combat air patrol mission near the Yalu River in Korea.
Williams shot down four confirmed MiGs, with Soviet records after 1992 acknowledging four kills, though the identity of two pilots remains unclear (possibly Polish or Czech rather than Russian).
Admiral Briscoe classified the engagement to protect a new NSA electronic surveillance capability that had tracked the encounter from the USS Helena off Vladivostok, only declassifying it after the Soviet Union's collapse in 1992.
Williams flew Hellcats off the USS Ranger and CV-1 John S. McCain in World War II, then transitioned to Corsairs before attending the University of Minnesota on active duty and later attending Monterey before Korea began.
After the dogfight left his aircraft with only elevator control surfaces intact, Williams used elevator inputs alone to control the badly damaged F9F Panther for the flight back to the USS Oriskany.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains substantial tactical and historical content about the dogfight itself - Williams explains specific maneuver techniques, aircraft limitations, and decision-making under extreme pressure. However, much of the runtime is devoted to biographical chronology (childhood, training pipeline, career moves) and anecdotes (UFO sighting, hypoxia incident) that, while interesting, offer limited operational insight for B2B operators. The core dogfight narrative is information-dense but padded significantly with personal storytelling.
If they were at my speed, they would probably be able to do that turn, but they were faster, so I would be able to turn inside of them and they couldn't pull the G.
And the faster you go, the wider radius you pull at the same amount of GS.
The core story - a 35-minute dogfight against seven MiGs - is genuinely unusual and historically significant, with uncommon details about damage assessment and single-elevator landing. However, the conversational framework relies heavily on standard military-memoir tropes: the humble hero, the adversity-forged character, the untold-for-decades narrative. The host and guest do not offer contrarian reinterpretation or first-principles analysis; they largely affirm the conventional heroic narrative without pushing on uncomfortable questions or alternative interpretations.
He came over to me, was brought over to me, and we met. And then he took me by the elbow and he walked me to a big overstuff leather chair
I want to let you know it takes some hard work first making it, uh, but maintaining it.
Captain Royce Williams is an exceptional guest: a retired naval aviator with 220+ combat missions across three wars, Medal of Honor recipient, and direct participant in one of the most significant aerial encounters of the Korean War. He is a genuine operator who executed complex flying at the highest levels of difficulty and spent a 33-year career in command and leadership positions. His seniority, real-world experience, and firsthand knowledge of both tactical aviation and strategic military decision-making make him a rare and highly credible source.
On November 18, 1952, while flying an F9F Panther from the USS Oriskany, Royce found himself alone in a 35 minute dogfight against seven Soviet flown MiG 15s near the Yalu River.
I had a squadron down at, um, Key West. I had a transition. I had to Command of the F8 Crusader squadron on the Enterprise and around the world cruise.
The episode includes strong specifics on the dogfight itself: aircraft types (F9F Panther vs. MiG-15), dates (November 18, 1952), locations (Yalu River, Vladivostok), altitude (26,000 ft), duration (35 minutes), damage (263 bullet holes, 37mm round damage, severed rudder cable), and landing details (caught number three wire, OK-3 grade). However, broader career claims lack supporting numbers: '220 combat missions' is stated but not detailed; '551 days of leave' is mentioned without context; the claim of four confirmed kills is hedged with uncertainty about Soviet acknowledgment, and Williams himself expresses ambiguity about exact kill count.
November 18, 1952, while flying an F9F Panther from the USS Oriskany
At 26,000ft approximately at full throttle.
The host (Speaker C) asks clarifying questions and shows genuine engagement, but rarely pushes back or challenges claims. When Williams expresses uncertainty about kill counts and NSA/Russian discrepancies, the host accepts the narrative without probing deeper into the inconsistencies. The host does not challenge the timing of the dogfight, the fuel calculation mystery, or Williams' own statements like 'I didn't even think about it' regarding fuel, which would be natural follow-ups. The interview is respectful but lacks the sharp, skeptical questioning needed to test claims or extract deeper insight.
So tell me this. Your first aerial kill, I presume, was that.
I was wondering that about that uh,
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Airmanship under intense stress is often defined by quick instincts and decades of muscle memory, but what happens when you are vastly outnumbered, outgunned, and ordered to keep your greatest achievement classified for half a century? In this episode of The Naval Aviation Ready Room Podcast, Tim Kinsella welcomes retired Navy Captain Royce Williams, whose military career spanned World War II, Korea, and Vietnam over 220 combat missions. Royce breaks down his early flying days, bird hunting in South Dakota, and his transition into jet aviation during the early days of carrier operations. The core of the conversation explores the legendary November 18, 1952 dogfight off the coast of Vladivostok. Operating near the Yalu River, Royce was separated from his division and ambushed by seven Soviet MiGs. He dissects the 35-minute duel, the longest recorded dogfight in jet history, detailing how he maneuvered inside the faster MiGs, managed critical ammo, porpoised a heavily damaged Panther back to the USS Oriskany, and kept the engagement top-secret for over 50 years.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: So he's on the table and I start working with the only control I really had. And I would see his bullets go over me. They didn't have, uh, your push stick forward. Go into a dive and he's shooting over me. Then he's starting to get the solution and I jerk it up, he's got a maneuver again and he starts shooting and he's shooting behind me.
Speaker B: Welcome to the Naval Aviation Ready Room podcast legends and leaders. I'm Rear Admiral Kyle Kozad, president and CEO of the Naval Aviation Museum foundation, and I'd like to personally invite you to join us as we explore the stories, leadership, innovation, and experiences that have shaped naval aviation. From legendary aviators and visionary leaders to the cutting edge technology that keeps naval aviation at the forefront of global operations. We'll take you beyond the exhibits and into the Ready Room, where history is made, lessons are learned, and inspiration takes flight. Whether you're a naval aviation enthusiast, a history buff, or simply curious about leadership and service, pull up a chair and step into the Ready Room.
Speaker C: Today's episode takes us into one of the most extraordinary and long hidden stories in naval aviation history. A story of impossible odds, unmatched airmanship, and a secret kept for half a century. Joining us in the ready room is Captain Royce Williams, a retired U.S. navy aviator whose career spanned World War II, Korea and Vietnam with more than 220 combat missions before retiring in 1975. Was that right? 1975.
Speaker A: 1980.
Speaker C: 1980. Excuse me, my notes are wrong. On, uh, November 18, 1952, while flying an F9F Panther from the USS Oriskany, which is now off the coast of Pensacola.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker C: Royce found himself alone in a 35 minute dogfight against seven Soviet flown MiG 15s near the Yalu River. His aircraft was slower, less maneuverable, except in a turn you could turn tighter. Was that right?
Speaker A: We could probably turn about equal, but in this case, uh, turned out in my favor because they were diving on me and is so considerably faster. And the faster you go, the wider radius you pull at the same amount of GS. If they were at my speed, they would probably be able to do that turn, but they were faster, so I would be able to turn inside of them and they couldn't pull the G.
Speaker C: And we're going to get to the full story of that later on in this discussion. So less maneuverable. As we said, he was outgunned. They had more forward firing weapons. But through extraordinary flying, some real stick and rudder skills, he shot down four MIGs, damaged others, and somehow brought Your badly damaged Panther with only elevators, just elevators right back to the carrier. That was the only control surfaces that you have. Yeah.
Speaker A: Yes, I want to discuss that chart down. Uh, four.
Speaker C: Yeah, please. We're here for you, Royce.
Speaker A: I'm unable to get NSA to tell me anything. When I, uh, was first briefed by Admiral Briscoe, senior admiral in the Western Pacific, he had information from his first exercise ever by an NSA force. They were on the USS Helena, right off the coast of Vladivostok, and able to track verbally and visually the encounter. And as it was over, I was directed to see Admiral. And on, uh, the way in, he says, now we hear what we're about to tell you, you won't be able to tell anybody ever. And we proceeded to tell him about this new capability in sight, and that by observing that I, uh, shot down. They wanted that young man generally shot down at least three. And that's really all I've heard from them. But the Russians are spilling the beans. In 1992, when the Soviet Union broke up, a newspaper in Moscow discussed the event and put out, uh, names of four that were shot down. And that seems to be acknowledged in America. Then the history book came out and it covered the event, and only one got back, and we have his name. And then it discusses four with names, and, uh, the other two are more or less left out of the equation. And there are people that surmise that they may not have been Russian, maybe Polish, Czech, something. And those countries didn't want any way to be involved in international affair and don't put out the names. So people are playing with four and five and six and one for sure got back.
Speaker C: Well, I think if the enemy are the ones that tell you how many were shut down.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's worse. Usually they may shade it a little bit, but to, uh, give the full numbers, a lot of times we know, but somehow rather numbers become important and they play games with them.
Speaker C: So I do have some questions about that that I want to ask you when we get to that dogfight. Well, before we begin, first of all, just thank you for being here. Thank you for answering these questions. And I was with you this morning for the NYF graduation. That's the. Was it Navy introductory Flight Evaluation course where all the new aviators go through. What was that like for you, being there with all those brand new student naval aviators this morning?
Speaker A: Love it. I mean, you look at your. A government asset, you have the prospect of really given the opportunity to shine, and, uh, they will.
Speaker C: Yeah, that's Our future. Did it bring you back at all?
Speaker A: Yes. There's so many things that are so different, such as what they're going through. But age wise, I was there once and we did unique things as uh, applied to my journey.
Speaker C: So with your journey is where I'd like to start our discussion. Can you understand? You grew up in South Dakota, is that right?
Speaker A: I was uh, born in South Dakota and uh, my dad, a vet from World War I, during the Depression got a bonus from the government. All participants in World War I and during the suppression. It's likely that he might get fired. He was working in the grocery store for brother in law. But times were tough for everybody. So I went with him and Model A around Lake Batesland Lake, which played a big part in my life as a kid. It was the border between Minnesota and South Dakota. And uh, 36 miles long. We were right about in the middle of it. Which town? Wilmot. And um, on the other side into Minnesota to a little town named Clinton. And there he found a building for sale in Main street that could work for a grocery store. So Pat, he bought with his bonus and went over There was a carpenter amongst everything else he could do and he reshaped that for grocery store up front and lodging behind when ready. We moved over there. I was age 11 and first day of Sunday school. There she was my future wife, the lovely 11 year old Cabela, furry Norwegian girl.
Speaker C: That's wonderful.
Speaker A: Of course.
Speaker C: Yeah. Your father, he sounds like a very resourceful man.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: And did you learn a lot from him?
Speaker A: Oh good. Just following him around, um, pheasant hunting.
Speaker C: I've been pheasant hunting in South Dakota. It's wonderful. So you would hunt birds? Did you shoot? Hunt birds, Pheasants?
Speaker A: Oh yes, I got quite good at it. Had my own gun.
Speaker C: Did that help you, do you think, to shoot straight in the panther?
Speaker A: Well, uh, initially in World War II we didn't have the aids in a way of computing gun sights. Uh, you did it mentally by uh, we call them rads, which were imprints on the site that help you gauge lead and uh, practice with birds. Is a good start.
Speaker C: Yeah, that's what you read about pilots uh, in World War I and they talk a lot about hunting birds and how it taught them to lead. So then what got you interested into aviation?
Speaker A: Well, I flew with my grandmother, age 80, both of us. First flight I was 4 in a Ford Tri motor out of a pasture in South Dakota. And that kind of wowed me. And then aviation grew and several deer and devils um, bought airplanes or somehow really had them to use. They'd come by and we had a suitable piece of land, nothing on it but, uh, maybe pasture. And, uh, they would form up maybe 15 or so at a time. And was within running distance from where I lived in town, so I would hang out there. Then I had a friend who had a gas station in Clinton where we moved. And I was probably age 14, something like that. He hangered it on a piece of land not far from town. And, uh, we get to ride with him occasionally just because we were forming a friendship and he was speed everything. Motorcycles and boats and whatnot. And an airplane, a travel air open cockpit biplane. And I was invited to fly. And I'd go with him to county fairs where he would put on demonstrations of interest to the crowd and I'd sell rides. And, uh, that got me in the errands. Little fun flying, which I'm sure increased the interest in me in flying. And both my brother and me visioned ourselves flying off aircraft carriers.
Speaker C: Even at that early age?
Speaker A: Even at that age. Uh, I don't know where we came by it. I suppose it was a movie, but had it in mind. So when Pearl harbor happened, how old
Speaker C: were you in Pearl Harbor?
Speaker A: 16. And I wanted to, uh, get with it, so I joined the army, which would take me and the Navy would not. But when I turned 17, I was a corporal. And I was then eligible for Navy aviation for that program. So I switched.
Speaker C: The army just let you go?
Speaker A: Yeah, Talked them into it, I guess. You're a fast talker and had good eyesight. So I was accepted.
Speaker C: And then what did your training program look like?
Speaker A: Well, it looked like several years of deeply involved study. First I went, uh, with a group out of Minneapolis of 250 on a train in August on our way to Corpus Christi, Texas for boot camp. And I guess we were illegitimate or something. They put us right behind the, uh, entrance. And it was hot. And some ingenuity guy, uh, broke the windows on the train. And this soot from the train came in and I had a brand new graduation suit. Light colored. It changed colors. I sent it home, they burned it.
Speaker C: And that train took you to Minneapolis?
Speaker A: Well, I would love to have gone to Indianapolis, but I was ineligible. And I was still too young for one thing.
Speaker C: So that initial training then took place where?
Speaker A: No, it started. I went into boot camp. And I had sort of a leg up being a corporal in the army. So they started me leading right off the bat. One day I was at KP the first time and one of my seniors came by Williams, what are you doing here? And I said, kp, get out of here. It was sort of that way. Uh, then we still didn't have room for us in the training train line. So, uh, wore a sailor hat and was part of the operations department at uh, NES Corpus Christi and around airplanes, but mainly maintenance until late in 1943 I finally got into the line of being an aviator which we pre fled at Murray, Kentucky at uh, University there upon completion went to war training school in Conway, Arkansas where we primarily flying the N3N open concrete biplane propeller. From there to pre flight in Atlanta, uh, in Athens, Georgia in University of Georgia, then to Memphis, Tennessee for primary training in N3Ns Stearman. Stearman.
Speaker C: Which you'll be flying on Friday.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Ah, and then Pensacola and Pensacola and flying airplanes made out of metal.
Speaker C: Was that the SNJ?
Speaker A: No. SUV? Yeah. VoLTE vibrator.
Speaker C: Do we have one of those? I don't think we do.
Speaker A: Mhm. Once upon a time and then the snj and we did a lot including thundering in the SNJ and then getting close to getting my wings and reflying the SBD dive bomber. Um, so you flew the SBD before
Speaker C: you got your wings?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: What aircraft did you do? Carrier qualifications, fcsf. Okay.
Speaker A: After the sbd, I went to uh, Opelaka, Miami, Florida. Fighters, Hellcats.
Speaker C: So at what point did they give you your wings?
Speaker A: Just before going down there, uh, firing the sbd. I got my wings. There's a story there. I got them late because my name starts with W, so I didn't finish with the rest and handed over to go with the next class. And it turned out that my authorization from Congress for my commission was about to expire, so I got called in separately and raised my hand and got commissioned and sent aboard a destroyer to kill the time till the rest of the people caught up. Wow.
Speaker C: Was that before the war ended?
Speaker A: No, right after the war.
Speaker C: That was right after then. Okay.
Speaker A: Then I came back. So I got my wings with that class, then went to operational Hellcats in Hellcats.
Speaker C: Did you enjoy flying the Hellcat?
Speaker A: Yes, it was good. Solid Grumman M airplane. They make solid Grumman airplanes.
Speaker C: Grumman Iron Works.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: So after you did an operational tour of flying the Hellcat off of what carrier?
Speaker A: Well, uh, the CV4 Ranger. John S. McCain. Captain, get out.
Speaker C: And after your tour flying Hellcats, then
Speaker A: where did you go with the Corsairs?
Speaker C: Corsairs?
Speaker A: Corsairs, yeah.
Speaker C: Was that a big difference?
Speaker A: Not a lot, but yeah, they had a nose that went way out in front of you and land on the carrier and see the LSO had, ah, used the rudder. Move the nose out of the way, you could see the lineup.
Speaker C: I, um, had a conversation with Butch Rorris, who was the first skipper of the Blues.
Speaker A: He was my boss for a while when, when I was on the exchange duty with Air Force.
Speaker C: I had dinner with him once in Monterey and he told me about trying to fly the Corsair onto a carrier and looking out over that big cowling, uh, and not being able to see it. So. Yeah. And then I understand you went to college then afterwards?
Speaker A: I did, yeah. Well, I was a high school grad and um, the war was over. We had billions of people in service. We had a trim. And a lot of people got uh, orders to go inactive or back to civilian life and they didn't always want to. A lot of them wanted to get out. Quite a few wanted to stay. Some made it and some did not. I wanted to and I didn't think I had a chance. And I made it. And uh, after a couple of tours and moving to the east coast, then I got orders to University of Minnesota. Okay.
Speaker C: Back up north?
Speaker A: Oh yeah, back up north. Back up north to the cold winters. Yeah. Fly the Corsair in the winter with an open cockpit.
Speaker C: And then after there you went to Monterey, is that right?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: And that's when Korea started.
Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, I was sent to Minnesota to get a baccalaureate degree and given 18 months to get an associate, uh, degree and I got a baccalaureate degree and I still had time left over. So I went to Monterey.
Speaker C: Nice spot, Monterey. Good golf.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: Were you playing golf back then?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: Did you play pebble?
Speaker A: I took of course, at uh, Minnesota. I was taking so many and I, uh, had been teased about golf, so I thought, hey, why don't I tune this thing little can and take. Course I found out at uh, the lunch period they had ah, a class in one wing of the stadium and you're hitting into a canvas about 10, 12, 15ft away and all fundamentals and then it drilled in. And I think, uh, I prospered. I didn't know I could hit the ball till springtime and go out of doors. But, uh, it seemed to have worked. The professor there was quite well known for being an expert teacher.
Speaker C: That's fantastic. I wish I had that. So then Korea breaks out.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: And tell me what was going through your mind when you see that war breaks out again.
Speaker A: Well, I was ordered to a Courser squadron and reservers or their group on the Oriskany, uh, in San Diego. So moving on down there, passed by Miramar where they were based. So uh, the Panthers. And I said oh my. I found out who the commanding officer of it was and it was the executive officer of the NOTC unit at the University of Minnesota. I gave him a call and told him everything scheduled down there at the other squadron. But I'd certainly like to fly jets, see what I can do. The next day I was in his squadron.
Speaker C: So there's no replacement squadron like there are replacement air group for you to.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker C: So you learned.
Speaker A: No, no, no. That all came late. I was in 124 F8 Crusaders at Moffett, but that was some years later.
Speaker C: So you learn the aircraft when you get to the fleet squadron, is that right?
Speaker A: Yeah, you get a general briefing about the airplane, put your flight suit on and get in it, start it up and go. They all handle pretty much the same. I've never been been trained in a simulator except the old one for instruments it used to bobble on around.
Speaker C: I think we have one here at the museum.
Speaker A: Yes, I'm sure.
Speaker C: Okay, so you're flying Panthers now was this on the Oriskany?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: And did you deploy overseas then to Korea?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: Okay, and that was in when? 51 52. Okay, so walk us through. Than being on an active carrier in an enemy combat zone. Were you flying missions often? Were they mostly close air support or were they combat air patrol or what types of things were you doing?
Speaker A: Yeah, and uh, a lot of uh, anti logistics trains and bridges, buses, anything you move? Pretty much.
Speaker C: And why were you so far north?
Speaker A: Well that was in our territory. The navy pretty much had the eastern half of North Korea as responsibility and uh, Coltshair support for the troops in that area. Occasionally we would cross the line because of a need and we had more slugging power with the AD and the Corsair carrying heavy bombs. So story part of it ought to tell you later on maybe about President Eisenhower. But for the time being we had territory to the Yalu, the border between Soviet Union on our half of Korea, the others China to the north. And um, we couldn't reach them. We didn't have in flight refueling, so it was a little beyond our reach. And they favored in the peaceful attitude. But no one bowed. And their manufacturing and so forth was healthy. So Admiral Jocko Clark knew that we ought to do something about it. So one night he moved us just 100 miles from Vladivostok off Changin a major city up there. And, uh, for us, I was on the first flight in the morning and we hit the city of, uh, which was right on the Yadu. And the aircraft wasn't as heavy as we were used to. Just knew they didn't really need it much. One day we had three carriers, so we did our best and was manufacturing and storage. And I came back from there, the weather was deteriorating, had been nice and clear, and I was told to get lunch. I would be on the next flight. Combat air patrol. So this is the flight, the flight, the event.
Speaker C: The event, the story that you couldn't tell for 50 years, but now I think there's a lot of people asking you about it to tell your story because it's so amazing. So if you could tell it one more time.
Speaker A: For us, it was an important event. And certainly it had, uh, threats of enlarging the war. And Stalin, I'm told, did not want it. And I, uh, don't think we wanted it either. We had some military that thought because of the heavy activity of the Chinese, that we ought to hit them down around Hong Kong, down south, and draw them out of there and punish them.
Speaker C: So if you would walk us through that day, walk us through that event from. You're in a flight of four doing combat air patrol and then tell us what happens.
Speaker A: Of course, we're briefed as always, that MIGs don't fly over water. So, uh, they'd probably be done a very interesting flight. But the weather made it interesting to start with the, uh, blizzard going on and visibility was somewhat limited. Clouds down to 500ft. We joined under the clouds and when climbing through to 12,000ft, our controllers, Comet information center on the Oriskany, advised us that there were inbound bogeys from the north, 70 miles nautical miles and headed our way. And we kept climbing, heading north. And when we popped and topped, I could see the contrails. And that, uh, took a lot of my attention besides flying formation. And as they crossed over me, I could see they were MIGs. And I called it out as such. So now the task force knew, but you didn't know.
Speaker C: You assumed they were North Korean.
Speaker A: I assumed that they could possibly be an enemy. I didn't classify him and the flight lead. My roommate, Lieutenant Reserve from Michigan, was leading and he had a warning light that he m may have a problem with his fuel pump. And he was directed by comet information center to go with his wingman and orbit over the task force at 13,000ft just above clouds, and left me and they indicated that I didn't make an intercept with these incoming negs. So I charged my guns. Test fired. All set to go. Everything ready to fight. Except Wiggleman. He was there. And unfortunately, um, I don't think he returned his master ambulance, which, when we got back down, the maintenance officer of the squadron, the ordnance officer, uh, the chief, had a plane pointed over the side and permission to test it, hook it up with yellow gear, turn the master airman switch on the guns, fired every 750 rounds.
Speaker C: So why was that? Did he ever tell you why?
Speaker A: No. We weren't particularly friends, but. Well, we were in a carpool together, but we didn't talk about it, and I wasn't allowed to, and I didn't. I avoided. I initially heard him say that he never fired a shot. He never made that claim till others made it for him. And after a while, that he possibly damaged one sounded good to him and he adopted that. Gotcha.
Speaker C: That must have brassed you off a little bit. I mean, he should have been right there with you the whole time. But anyway, we'll get to that. So you're ready now for combat? Your weapons are ready?
Speaker A: I am. And come back and establish a barricade between last sighting and the task force. And in that turn, four of them came in from my 10 o' clock position almost on my nose, and they were in a loose formation. And, um, all guns firing, all the airplanes, all of them shooting, they declared war on me. I didn't, Sergeant.
Speaker C: Which is funny because they claimed that you started it. But they started it.
Speaker A: They're lying. Yeah, they bounced.
Speaker C: Yeah, they probably thought you were easy pickings.
Speaker A: Yeah, I turned into them, uh, hard and ended up right behind their, uh. Tailor and Charlie had tracked this ocean, pulled the trigger with just a short burst and caught on fire and dropped out of the formation. And my wingman left to track him.
Speaker C: So tell me this. Your first aerial kill, I presume, was that.
Speaker A: Yes. Okay.
Speaker C: It appears to me when you tell your story, that you're on automatic. Your training just kicked in. You're not thinking about, I just shot a guy down. You're thinking about, where's the next threat?
Speaker A: No, I just went from one to the other automatically.
Speaker C: Okay, so that's one knocked out of the fight, and then what happened next?
Speaker A: And the other three then pulled abruptly, uh, climbing beyond anything I could do. And when ready, probably 2,000ft or so above, they turned around and came head on me. I was going to tail them and see if I could get a shot. And they were Firing. So I first was going to take the gun that just lost his wingman, but he was in the sun and I saw these others already shooting, so I switched and I got the solution on lead of our just a short burst and he stopped shooting and he turned away and I assume he got hit. In any case, it plays into the story. And his wingman kept coming and I switched my lead, got him in solution and fired and he stopped fired and he just kept coming and just fired underneath me while I Reiki M and tree demise.
Speaker C: So that was number.
Speaker A: Well, it's maybe two out of the fight. So they're maybe down to four or, uh, five, number seven.
Speaker C: So how we're what, five minutes in,
Speaker A: ten minutes in, not more than it was the early part. And the other three came on around of the seven. And now they were all broken up in individuals and working pretty much like we do when we practice gunnery. We get up on the perch. When it's your turn, you make your run, pull up, go back on the perch, and, um, there's always a guy right behind me.
Speaker C: This sounds like you're in a bar fight and you're surrounded by guys and they're coming in at you one at a time.
Speaker A: Yeah, they were in control for sure. I responded to the threat as best I could. I was wearing a poopy suit, rubber casket, neck.
Speaker C: I know them well.
Speaker A: So I was. My only skin damage was bleeding neck. Oh, yeah.
Speaker C: That must have been so raw, because as you're explaining this, I'm imagining you in the cockpit and your head is on a swivel and you're looking out, you know, your head over your shoulder, over both shoulders, up, down, everywhere. Because it's literally like being in a knife fight.
Speaker A: Yeah, they're kind of all around me, and when it was their turn, they're shooting. And when they're shooting, I'm turning as tight as I can and hard to pull lead to some of this. And I think I was lucky. And they made mistakes and they weren't so lucky.
Speaker C: So that's something I'm interested in. So you're doing everything you can to not get shot out of the sky because you got four of them on you now.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: So is your mindset, is it purely defensive or you're doing what you can to stay alive, but then taking opportunities when you can, waiting for them to make a mistake.
Speaker A: Exactly. I was on, uh, the defense that was my intention to survive this. Like, they made mistakes. For the first guy, instead of pulling up abruptly, you kind of pull up, lazy like, and down. Uh, alone. I turn on him in close fired and so close that I had to maneuver drastically to avoid hitting him. Pieces, um, of the airplane coming off. Wow.
Speaker C: And you've got to know your aircraft like it's part of you, but you've got to know your aircraft to know what it can do. And I'm sure you're pushing it beyond its limits.
Speaker A: Yeah, I just don't fly into skulls. That's a problem in itself.
Speaker C: Okay, so now we're kind of halfway through the dog fight, by the way, for our listeners. The longest dogfight recorded up to this point was about five minutes, I think.
Speaker A: Uh, American dog fight, maybe less than that.
Speaker C: Less than that.
Speaker A: Normally they're an attack on mainly Korea and Vietnam. And of course today it's missiles. So they don't have the weapon system to stay in the fight for 35 minutes. You're out of ammo.
Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. And you think World War II, you've got a, you know, a 0 and a, uh, F6. And they're doing 250 knots at each other or more. They're not going to last long. So now you're into yours. You're already, what, 15, 20 minutes into it, trying to stay alive. Yeah.
Speaker A: Uh, mostly it's a slash or if you're getting on individual and maneuverability comes into it, attempting to get the lead for your weapon, a missile.
Speaker C: Okay, so lead us through the rest of it then. I want to figure out how you got out of this thing. How did you get home?
Speaker A: Yeah, well, again, they made some mistakes, and one of them led me to make it. One stake came in and I hit him, and he started smoking and kind of dropping down. And I was going to hit him again because he was right there. He didn't climb up. I guess his engine wasn't producing because he could have most of them even if the airplane would be able to zoom out, uh, abruptly. And it didn't. He started dropping down. So I was going to give another punch and got the solution and pulled the trigger and two rounds and I was out of ammunition. And there was a guy on my tail. And it's the first time I straightened out enough for them to really just sit there. And I saw that and I made a hard right turn with a lot of rudder in, uh, it. And to expose it like this. He got a lucky shot with a 37 millimeter that came through the wing butt and into the accessory section of the engine and blew up and made holes everywhere and, um, severed the rudder cable knocked out the hydraulic systems. So basically I had an elevator.
Speaker C: Yeah. And for our listeners, the elevator is just the tail of the aircraft and those flaps on the tail just to go up and down. So no rudder and no ailerons, which are on the wings.
Speaker A: I barely get a little bit, which allowed me to get aboard the aircraft, but not maneuver.
Speaker C: Wow. So he. So this guy's on your tail. All you've got are your elevators.
Speaker A: Yeah. And he's sitting right there. I'm in the clear. But there are, uh, the clouds and then a carrier under it at some point where I, uh, took off. And I happen to be pointed right in that direction. So he's on the tail and I start working with the only control I really have. And I would see his bullets go over me. They didn't push a stick forward. And, uh, I would go into a dive and he's shooting over me. Then he's starting to get the solution and I jerk it up and he's got a maneuver again and he starts shooting and he's shooting behind me. So I'm seeing him under and over and under and doing this until I got into the clouds. I'm diving. All this commotion before was at 26,000ft approximately at full throttle.
Speaker C: Were you at full throttle the whole time?
Speaker A: All the time.
Speaker C: The whole time?
Speaker A: All the time.
Speaker C: Wow.
Speaker A: And I kept doing this till I got in, in the clouds. I lost sight of him and what should I do? I didn't know the full damage. I knew I'd been hit severely. Uh, maybe it wasn't as loud or maybe I ought to eject. I'd never be rescued. And I'd gone, uh, 20 minutes, no matter what. I'd been dead. So I knew the bottom of the clouds were 500ft and I knew where the task force was. So had radio and told them I'm headed back. And the deck was loaded for a launch again, finishing touch and hoaryong. And then they were going to head back to our normal station at 38th parallel. So they had to move all that forward ahead of the barricade and couldn't take them below. But they were on the upper deck. And I just, uh, kept going down, down, flying, understanding what I've got. And when they came under the clouds, I was close and the task force was at general quarters and they hadn't been told I was friendly. So they were authorized to fire at any unknown or weapons free, uh, the ring of destroyers. And so they're shooting at me. And my commanding officer had Just taken off to be my relief. And he saw what was going on, and he called them off as friendly. So that problem was gone. Getting aboard the ship, we're, uh, working on making landing platform clear. And I'm testing the airplane and trying to maneuver it to the position to where I would be lined up with the carrier when it turns into the wind. So I find out that the airplane will stall out at anything below 170 knots. And so I got to keep my power up. And then I, uh, did a little work to see how I could turn it, how much control I had, and positioning at the right spot where I get a signal Charlie to land. In about 10 minutes, they had it rigged. I go to Charlie and I, uh, headed in. Working with the lso, they had switched their, uh, radio channel, and I told them, uh, I was coming in hot. And they pass that to the captain and he says, bring him in any speed he wants. We headed into a storm and a lot of speed himself. That taken care of. I can't line up. I said, oh, we'll cut you for an early wire. I don't know what that was going to do. I would go across the deck instead of down and into the water. But a lot of help in the area. And if I survived the crash, I'd probably been rescued. So confidently I proceeded as though I was going to land and not really knowing what's going to happen. And lo and behold, the captain of the ship at the right boat turned it and lined it right up with me and I landed and caught the number three wire in a comfortable landing.
Speaker C: So you got an ok3?
Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, got an okay3.
Speaker C: That was wonderful. I was assistant navigator on a carrier, so I understand what it takes to line the carrier up there to the aircraft. I think it's a great bull on the story, you know, that the ship maneuvering to be able to get you in there.
Speaker A: Yes, he did just the right thing at just the right time. Um, and a lot of that fight was that, uh, just the right thing.
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, a lot of things had to happen that day to get you home safely.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, it did, you know.
Speaker C: All right, so now you land and you land and you have this aircraft that's got 263 bullet holes in it.
Speaker A: Yeah. No, they weren't bullets. They were mainly shrapnel. The explosion of the 23 millimeter put a lot of the holes where the skin of the airplane is pointed out instead of in. So the blowing up, uh, and whatever was coming with it. Yeah.
Speaker C: Okay, so when you land I'm sure some people wanted to talk to you to debrief you.
Speaker A: Well if they were at general quarters. So I went immediately to the ready room and all of the non flying pilots they kept her with four when it just launched and I was there then minus the rest of the flight that I was with and there preceding me in landing. So I came in the ready room and the intelligence officer was waiting for me and had all the others in there promised they wouldn't say anything, uh, until he was through debriefing. So he took me to the debrief area of the ready room and we sat there and he didn't say anything. He's wasting time and they're yelling at him from the intelligence center in the carrier. Mac, get in here. Washington's on the line, they want to know now. They kept repeating him and he stuck it out. He didn't know anything. Finally the last land was the commanding, the division leader department or uh, division leader of uh, our uh, flight. And that's what he was waiting for to start the briefing. And he didn't know anything. He was away from it all and not involved. So he went to the next guy. Well the next guy did get an involvement because uh, I said I need some help up here. And this after I was hit. And so they sent him to intercept. The guy that I had shot was now down to 8,000ft and smoking and headed toward Valetta Vasa I guess. So he had been orbiting over the task force over the clouds. And this guy is north of there where the storm had gone beyond in the clear. So he was directed on, over and came on in at 90 degrees to him at 8,000ft and he's smoking and going down. And so he fired him from way on uh, out. And then he was going to come around and come with a tail and he had the speed to do it because his makeup was done. And as he was coming around here the uh, pilot ejected and uh, he watched him and then circled him in the water. And they wanted him to stay there and get a halo or something in order to see if they could rescue this guy. And he denied he had a combination of low on fuel. Well goodness, he'd been flying lesser power and the whole flight. And now uh, this one little thing. I must have been just about out of it. I'd never checked my fuel.
Speaker C: I was wondering that about that uh,
Speaker A: what am I going to do? I didn't even think about it. I had other things in my mind. Trust in Luck?
Speaker C: Yeah. Better lucky than good, right? So you're on the carrier, Washington's on the line. There is the makings of an international incident. How did we stop an international incident from happening?
Speaker A: Well, years later. No, uh, just before, I had majored in international relations. Now I gotta use it. Yeah.
Speaker C: Did you have to fly to Washington? Did you talk about it?
Speaker A: I really hadn't puzzled it that far. The solution was there when they said I, uh, had to meet Admiral Briscoe, and this was our last day online. So we were going in the Yakooska anyway, and, um, that's where his headquarters were. And, uh, I guess within a day or two to arrive, and I got in my greens, sort of the dress of the day, and was on my way and down to the hangar deck, where I ran across a sack of glass. Our aviation boatswain mate, people would move airplanes around, and I told him I was the pilot that came back with the holes in the airplane. I'd let you see it one more time before you offload it. He said, oh, I'm sorry, sir, but we push it over the side. Oh, thank you. And so in port, I went directly to the admiral's office. I met a friend of mine who was the fighting sec and, uh, greeted him and he says, come on, the Edmond wants to see you right now. He was standing by the door, and I came in. He closed it. And I don't know if he took me by the elbow, but he said, what we're going to tell you, you can't tell anybody. And he proceeded to say, we have this new department, nsa, and I guess I told you what happened there. They had followed everything they heard him say, increased speed and attack and all that sort of thing.
Speaker C: You'd mentioned President Eisenhower earlier on?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker C: So how did President Eisenhower come into it?
Speaker A: Well, right after this meeting, Washington, maybe two, three days, of course, is authorized to know what was going on. And President Eisenhower said, uh, if elected as a general, I will go personally to Korea and see how things are going. And then in time, he'd heard about that involvement, and he said, I want to see that guy. And so they got busy making plans for me to see the president.
Speaker C: So you went to the White House?
Speaker A: He came to me. He came to Sowell.
Speaker C: Oh, my. Uh, what did he say to you?
Speaker A: Oh, goodness. Do you want the whole story?
Speaker C: Yes, of course we do.
Speaker A: Well, I was flown to Busan, a, uh, Marine base in the south of South Korea, to wait for the arrival of Admiral Mark Chaco Clark. I was invited for A little together with the admiral and General Jerome Marine Base and maybe all of the Korea Marine activities. It was, uh, approaching Christmas. We had a nice little fire in the fireplace and a toddy and we were leaving the next day. But we flew in a DC3 R4D to Seoul. And then I was taken by limousine with the admiral, uh, and dropped off at a hotel to stand by a phone. And if this thing with the president really comes about, we'll give you a call and send it a limousine. So I stood by the phone and it rang and they came and they delivered me to the outpost. Uh, Corporal of the Guard sort of thing where a reign captain MP Was in charge with a squad. Uh, and jerked me out of the car and said, do you know who's up there? And I said, I think I do. What's your name? And the phone rang and it was Admiral Clark on the other end. He said, you got a Navy Lieutenant Williams down there? And I said, what's your name? I said, williams. And then he started saying bad words. Get him up here. So they rushed me up and Snowstorm. I'm m saying me. I got two other guys with me too. And they don't get involved or anything, but they're, uh, there. And the Adam was looking after me, brushing the snow off and combing my hair and making me look presentable. So I went in the room, which was fascinating, with stars. They determined the Joint Chiefs five star. Uh, the chiefs was the various services. Four stars, plus a few others, and even a couple of three sergeants, which were the admiral. Clark was the vice admiral and the. Well, uh, even the secretary of defense at the time. And, uh, an ambassador and a British ambassador that after a while got dismissed. So was not in the room. And the president wasn't in the room at that time. Got through meeting everybody, and we were just standing around chatting. And he came in from a side door and General Mark Clark says, gentlemen, the president. And it snapped and comes in and kind of waves. At ease, boys, at ease. He came over to me, was brought over to me, and we met. And then he took me by the elbow and he walked me to a big overstuff leather chair about 20, 30ft away. It was a big room. And sat me in the chair and then sat on the arm of it and put his arm around me. And he says, well, uh, Lieutenant, before we get down to business, we ought to have a drink, don't you think? I said, well, yes, sir. He says, well, we have bourbon and scotch, water and soda. My son John's the bartender. What do you have? Um, he shouldn't have asked me. He was trying to direct me. He said, my bourbon. M. We have awfully good scotch. Yes, sir. I prefer bourbon. Young man, we've got great scotch. Well, sir, I prefer a bourbon. He had another praise, and I denied it. Finally he says, lieutenant, we've got the world's greatest scotch and all these Serbs over there are dancing. I mean, what this kid do? Mr. President, I drink bourbon. Oh, John, give me my bourbon water.
Speaker C: That's great. So then what did he say to you? What did he tell you then over your glass of bourbon?
Speaker A: Akron got it or. Yeah, he started. He knew, I guess, said I was not allowed to talk about the event. And we just danced all around it. And he asked me, he said, you know, the new position I'm getting gives me authority over what you people use when you think about the comparison with the enemy equipment versus yours and stuff like that. And amongst the gathering of sires over there, they wanted it in, and they answered right away. Well, so and so and so and so and so and so the Air Force is jumping in, and when he threw the president and what were you going to say? Another guy popped up, and the discourse was. And he patiently waited, and he said, and then, lieutenant, what were you going to tell me? And so? Well, uh, I did. And then he asked another question, the same thing. And then we get the third question. No more. They figured it out. It was a discussion between the president and me. They were invited in.
Speaker C: That's a good story. I like that. That's a good one. Okay, so now that you go back to your squadron, I assume.
Speaker A: Yeah. But another interesting thing we had. An admiral can't give the same network now, but he was in line to become the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And all these SARs had aides and they had an aid room where they were dining. And so I was invited and escorted and joined them. And while in there, we ate. Well, when we went in there, someone entered and told me that this admiral that's become chairman of the Joint Chiefs wants to see me in his stateroom. So I had an independent discussion with him. Um, the next day, ooh, and Don caught a cod, went aboard ship.
Speaker C: So now, knowing that this incredible thing happened, that, ah, you survived and you can't talk about it, but it must have colored the rest of your career. It's always in the back of your mind and you can't talk about it, did you ever feel that you wanted to talk about it or you just put it to the back of your mind and that was it?
Speaker A: No, what I wanted was I do not want to talk about it. Uh, which was probably more of a tease because I pledged I'm not going to talk about it. And years and years went by and I just avoided anything at the discussions about. About that when it died. This is years later. You forget those things. It's no longer of any interest and I'm comfortable as it is. Just.
Speaker C: Well, it's your humility also. So was it the publication of a Russian book you saw or being published in the Russian newspapers after the fall of the Soviet Union when it became public? Is that right? M. And how did you find out?
Speaker A: Absolutely involved me until someone saw to it that I saw material. Uh, it was just like that. Hey, here's something about you. Was that Tailhook M. It was dismissed. It was not favorable to naval intelligence. They were led by people who wanted to stick with what the intelligence officer said, which he didn't know what he was talking about.
Speaker C: Interesting. I want to step back a bit in your career too, before we finish up. There was an incident where you were flying an F4. I was at a test pilot school or where was it?
Speaker A: No, I had a squadron down at, um, Key West. I had a transition. I had to Command of the F8 Crusader squadron on the Enterprise and around the world cruise.
Speaker C: Okay. I did a couple of cruises on the Enterprise.
Speaker A: Good ship.
Speaker C: Good ship. It was a good ship. Yeah, it was a good ship.
Speaker A: Tom Hayward and I transitioned or, uh, refreshed in the F8 Crusader. I had been an instructor at uh, 124 at Moffitt. And then I went to head of motion plans coming out of there, had been selected for command and went to Jacksonville 174 to, uh, upgrade. And so did he. At the same time we became good friends and he got a squadron and the east coast. And I did too initially. And I said, isn't there a war on? And uh, you know, I just felt they should take trained people and use them. They said, do you want in it? Sure. We could find somebody with a switch. And so it happened. So he had a, uh, squadron on the east coast on a, uh, coal, uh, oil burning, uh, SF4, whatever it is, where it puts out black smoke. And the sailors were ten times as hard to corrosion control and all that. Uh, as we did on the Enterprise. We both came back with four old corrosion avoidance. Only the hours involved his a lot more than mine. Easier.
Speaker C: Yeah, but did you have an incident where you were flying an F4 and both engines caught fire.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker A: Around the world, there were a lot of countries that flew the F4 Phantom. And amongst them all, there were 16 that were lost with the same cause. Double engine fire. And I know if I were still with the Air Force, the air rules would say jump. And Navy gives you a little place to use your own mind. I'm still flying. So we're on a, um, missile chute, and I just knocked it down. I went into a big victory roll and run it on the top of it. Bang, bang, the lights going on and they roaring. I look out and flames, uh, coming out of the engine and kind of fired up over the wing. Not much, but I recognized it was what evolved with some others, and I knew how they handled it. But I'm still flying. So I had my backseater eject, and he was ready. I said, joe, I don't really. Boom. And then I knew the altitude for distance, trying to get back to the base. So I had both throttles way back, and the temperature gauges don't move. They stay picked. And the flames are gone. And I am losing power. I really don't have me when I came up on full throttle, and I'm, um, still going down, so I'm getting pretty close. So I landed with both engines on fire and afterburner.
Speaker C: Wow. And the fire trucks just came up afterburner. With an afterburner. So you're landing with afterburner.
Speaker A: I, uh, just didn't have power.
Speaker C: Wow. My goodness. And you chose to stay with the aircraft?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker C: Just so they could examine what was happening?
Speaker A: Well, I suppose. And also get my tail back while I'm at it. Okay. But it was important because he lost so many. And he, uh, descended on it with the. Was getting engineers from all over the world. And in, um, about two months, it solved the problem.
Speaker C: Wow.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker C: And we're going to wrap it up here. But before we do, I got my young son sitting over there, and he'd like to be a naval aviator someday. And you were talking this morning to a lot of hopeful naval aviators, student naval aviators. For a young man or woman that wants to enter into the wonderful career of naval aviation and this amazing community, it's like, uh, a brotherhood, a sisterhood. You know, it really is a shared experience that we all have. When you wear those wings of gold, it's a very special thing. And so what advice would you give to young people that want to do it?
Speaker A: First you gotta get to want to do it, Uh, a lot of people just are dipped in aviation. They don't know what they're missing. They probably don't get the yearning or whatever because lack of contact. So you gotta have exposure. So Top Gun movie certainly did some.
Speaker C: Sure did.
Speaker A: I'd say to them, making the choice. Do you like adventure? Do you like challenges? Do you like money? It isn't the highest pay, but it's guaranteed. And if you do your part, the government will certainly do theirs career solid. And I want to let you know it takes some hard work first making it, uh, but maintaining it. It's like in school, you want to continue getting good grades, but it's rewarding adventure. Um, the tough part of it, consider it, it's family. And I think it's getting more considerate of that quarters and care. Understanding some of this my own device or because I was chosen to do things. I lost 551 days of leave. Uh, I didn't get a whole lot of leave while I was in the military. Mainly it was just transportation from one assignment to the next. When I built my home, where I live now was my 27th family move. We saw United States.
Speaker C: That's how many I did. I did 27.
Speaker A: Yeah. And, uh, we lived in Japan and Hawaii. And it was rewarding. I like both assignments I did for 33 years.
Speaker C: And it was always. It was a wonderful career. And it was the people that brought me back too.
Speaker A: Yeah. When it came time, choosing where to live, my choice, my wife's choice. When I was the head of promotion plans and Bureau of Naval Personnel, we had a consular that would, uh, brief people getting out of the military, letting them know about choices. And at that time it was, uh, Duluth, Minnesota, that had opportunity and cheap cost of living and the things you consider in retirement. So foolishly I said to my wife, well, you know, we're getting naps and we've got to do something after, so we don't own anything. And let's look into it. What do you say? Duluth, Minnesota? She said, how, uh, about Escondido, California? And so it was.
Speaker C: That's not a bad spot. I remember watching you, uh, during the president's State of the Union address. And I felt immensely proud watching you there receiving the Medal of Honor to see a fellow naval aviator get what is justly deserved after so many years. And it warmed my heart to see it. And it warmed my heart to see the reception that you got during that time. It really did.
Speaker A: Yeah. It was the only time that, uh, both sides of the Stood up.
Speaker C: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker A: You're always opposite. Whatever. You're here. They came together, uh, at Tellurus.
Speaker C: Our country needs you. We need you. Our Navy needs you. You receiving the Medal of Honor not only honors you and your legacy, but it's a legacy for our children. It shows our children what the men and women of our country are willing to do and willing to sacrifice in order to keep us who we are. You know, to keep America a great country that it is. So thank you for being here. Thank you for talking to us.
Speaker A: You're entirely, uh, welcome. I'm enjoying this stuff. Good.
Speaker C: And you said the more you tell the story, the better it is. Any final words they'd like to say?
Speaker A: Well, people like little stories. They got a little.
Speaker C: Well, I would love. You can tell all the stories you like.
Speaker A: Well, when I was on exchange duty with the Air force, I flew F86s in the F1 hundreds. And I was flying an F86 one day, probably a test hop or something, because I was by myself, no students, and they saw a ufo.
Speaker C: You didn't.
Speaker A: Thought I did. And it makes you question. I saw it out there. And, um, they were always looking for another airplane to jump. So here is a target for me. So I saw him, and he's probably over a mile away. So I'm just seeing a blob. So I turn into him, and I started closing on him, and all of a sudden it just took off to the south and it disappeared.
Speaker C: It was just a blob?
Speaker A: Yeah. As far as I could see, it was an airplane at a distance. And the closer I got, a little more formation to it, but I never got close enough to really get any identity data. Uh, I called the, uh, control tower right away and asked them if they had anything out that way. They did not. So I just dispissed with it. Anyway, another call tale, although we were
Speaker C: doing, uh, comp 2X on the Roosevelt, and some of the F18s on their radar got something that was very, very, very suspicious. And they recorded it and brought it back, and we didn't know what the heck it was. It was just zigzagging, doing 800 knots, and then stopping dead.
Speaker A: I got a friend that did just that, too, off the West Coast. But the little story, we're always looking for a fight to entangle in fighter tactics. So I have a wingman that I don't know, but he joined on me and we jumped two F86s at 44,000ft. And we were on their tail, and I mean, I didn't realize it, but I bout to have a problem. I called the wingman and said, where did they go? And he said, they're right in front of us. Where are you on your wing? Kind of problem. I knew it was hypoxia, so I reached down and I pulled the emergency bottle, the, uh, parachute, and it passed out. It went from 44,000ft down to 18,000ft by itself. And then I came to it. Wow.
Speaker C: I got hypoxia once.
Speaker A: Not good.
Speaker C: No, it's not.
Speaker A: It's insidious.
Speaker C: It is insidious. It's exactly what I recognized it because my fingernails were going blue.
Speaker A: Oh. Well, I did it because my vision. I'm on your wing. I didn't see.
Speaker C: Yeah, I couldn't stay on the air route. I kept on drifting off and drifting off. And then I started trying to do arithmetic in my head and I couldn't get past counting to two. And then I. So I got emergency oxygen. Put it on.
Speaker A: Well, our, uh, training is valuable.
Speaker C: It sure is.
Speaker A: That can sneak up on you, but
Speaker C: you're proof of that. I mean, that's why the naval aviation pipeline is so rigorous, because you're in a dogfight for your life and your training takes over. And the worst injury you have is the rash around your neck from all the twisting and turning you're doing. It's an amazing story, and it's a story for the ages. And it's a story that is now part of American history. It's part of our national narrative. You know, something that happened. Just like our famous World War II aces, like our, uh, Vietnam aces. You know, your story can finally be told and it's a good thing. Anything else you'd like to. Any other great stories you have for us?
Speaker A: That's it.
Speaker C: Okay. Well, I think then we will wrap it up. So, Royce, Captain Williams, thank you very, very much for being here and especially for being here at the Naval Aviation Museum. What better place than to talk about one of the longest dogfight in history? So, listeners, thank you for joining us on this flight through history and innovation here at the Ready Room. We hope today's episode inspired you with new insights and the incredible stories that make naval aviation so extraordinary, just like we heard today. So please don't forget to visit the National Naval Aviation Museum right here in Pensacola, or explore our online resources@the navalaviationmuseum.org to dive deeper into the stories we've shared. Follow us on social media for updates, behind the scenes content, and a sneak peek at upcoming episodes. This was the history you didn't know that happened before the history you know with Captain Royce Williams retired. So this is Lucky signing off and we will see you next time. Thanks for listening to Ready Room. See you on the next flight.
Speaker B: Thank you for joining us on this flight through history and innovation here at the Ready Room. We hope today's episode inspired you with new insights and the incredible stories that make naval aviation so extraordinary. If you enjoyed the journey, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share the podcast with your network. It helps us reach more listeners just like you. Don't forget to visit the Naval Aviation museum in Pensacola, Florida or explore our online resources at navalaviationmuseum.org to dive deeper into the stories we've shared. Follow us on social media for updates, behind the scenes content and a sneak peek at upcoming episodes. Until next time, thanks for listening to the Ready Room. See you on our next flight.
Flying the Ice Shelf: LC-130 Ski Operations in Antarctica89 / 100
540 Miles From Land: A Solo Pilot’s Nightmare and Miracle Rescue52 / 100
Halsey’s Typhoon: The Bull vs. the Barometer43 / 100
Marine Aviation in WWII: The Real Story of VMF-22157 / 100
The Revolt of the Admirals: Five Days that Shook the Navy44 / 100