Amy Hopper Swan & Jeff Amerine - Angel Investing Across Arkansas

Speaker A: You're listening to the Multiplier Effect, an endeavor podcast.

Speaker B: I always say, do as much research on the group that you're going to pitch to as they're going to inevitably do on you when they do the due diligence. Make sure you understand the personalities and what they've invested in before and check size and stage and all that. And it's true for angel groups as well. I mean, look at some of the other things they've invested in. Call, talk to other founders, find out how are they to deal. What was the process like?

Speaker C: All right, everyone, welcome back to the Multiplier Effect podcast. I'm your host, Quinn Robertson, uh, director of the 412 Angels program. I've got a really interesting set of guests today. Um, we are coming in towards the very end of our series on angel investing right now, and I've got some really smart folks, uh, on how to run angel groups and how they've been involved in trying to grow them in the state of Arkansas. And so, uh, we have Amy Hopper Swan here from Central Arkansas, and we've got Jeff Amaran here from northwest Arkansas, each with their own backgrounds, uh, backgrounds on how to run angel groups, wins, losses, what the state's doing well, what the region's doing well. And so I'm really excited for the discussion today. I'll also note as well, uh, when this podcast, uh, session ends up coming out, there's going to be an event coming up in Northwest Arkansas called the Mid Continent VC Summit, hosted by Cortado Ventures in Oklahoma City. Good partners of us and currently, uh, you know, working well with them, trying to get more money and, uh, investment rolled around into, into the startup scene in the middle of the country here. We'll put a link to the RSVP, but listeners to the podcast put in a code, MVCS24 end VR. And you'll get a discount on that. And that's coming up in early May. Again, we'll put that, uh, in the link to the podcast, so check it out there. So we'll start off with Jeff, Amy, thank you all for coming in. I'm excited to have you as a part of the podcast. Uh, and welcome into the podcast studio here.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for having us.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, how about we'll get started off, uh, with Amy. We'll start off with you. Maybe give the folks, uh, a little bit of your background and, uh, how you got into running around with the Archangel Alliance. We'd love to hear a little bit of the backdrop there.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Quinn I am an Okie originally. Um, I've been living in Arkansas for the past seven years and I really stumbled into working with entrepreneurs and then later into um, this investor network. My background is in corporate finance and when I moved to Arkansas I looked to make a change into nonprofit and ran um, an accelerator somewhat for entrepreneurs based on I core. So I was working with people in the very earliest stages of having an idea. Um, and now I primarily work with uh, researchers who may be commercializing their work, looking to partner with industry and then of course I serve as the board chair for the Archangel Alliance. Um, and I'm honestly still on that learning curve of learning what it means to be an investor. But it's been uh, quite the journey so far and I'm proud and excited to be a part of it.

Speaker C: We're incredibly happy to have you here and then and also just the work that you're doing with the Archangel alliance and trying to grow an investor base there. I'm like five years into my journey Jeff. Maybe one or two years more after or longer than me there, I don't know. But I'm still on this learning curve and it's, you know it's a, it's a decades long, 20 long thing. So I'm super excited to have you here Jeff, go ahead as well.

Speaker B: Sure, sure. Uh, yeah, first of all thanks for having us on again. And so a little bit of background. Serial entrepreneur I guess by experience or affliction however you want to play that. Nine startups over a long career primarily in technology. Three Fortune 500s along the uh, spent 10 years in the military. So all this is kind of equating to this is a really old guy which is all true. And uh, seven years at the University of Arkansas running tech commercialization and I still teach out there in the last 15 years have been integrally involved in all aspects of the venture and early stage investing and entrepreneurial ecosystem. Run a company called Startup Junkie Consulting who has affiliates or DBAs. As innovation junkie and as the conductor in central Arkansas we touch probably 2,000 entrepreneurs a year through mentoring. Put on 250 events, a lot of activity and run a fund called Catherine Capital Partners which is sort of a traditional 2 and 20 general partner limited partner fund. Invests in companies that are a little farther along but all the way along have been involved in sort of the primordial state of very early stage investing beginning with work on a fund for Arkansas's future as one of the funds, uh, managers. Also we started an entity which Wasn't really an entity. It was a forum called Natural State angel association some years back and would have companies present from all over the place. And then more recently, Archangel Alliance. Proud to be a board member there. Proud to be, uh, also a active investor and participant in 412 Angels, which you do a great job running and so love it. I live in this space and, uh, I really enjoy all aspects of understanding the founder journey and writing a few early stage checks as well.

Speaker C: Love it, love it. Appreciate the backdrop there. So I've, you know, we've got multiple different angel groups that are sort of represented on the call here. Uh, previous and, you know, and current today as well. We have listeners that are entrepreneurs, we have listeners that are maybe prospective angels or they're sort of thinking about what they might want to do here. Um, so we'd love to give each of y' all the floor on, you know, give folks kind of a backdrop or maybe like, operationally what y' all typically look at from an investing perspective. Um, so just give like, a little bit of an overview of the angel group, how it works. What do y' all typically look at? And, uh, and Amy, we'll start with you.

Speaker A: Sure. Well, I was actually just going to punt this over to Jeff because he was our longstanding co, um, leader of our deal committee for the Archangel Alliance. So he, um, along with James Hendren, who's also on our board, did a great job of choosing companies that we, that our members looked at each month, um, of course, with input from members and the rest of the board. But, um, I would love to hear kind of his top three to five things that he looks for.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So thanks for that baton pass there, Amy. I'm happy to talk about that a little bit. I always tell everybody that the first three things I look at are the team, the team, and the team, uh, out of the 10 things you might consider. But it's really a business of sizing up a leadership team. Their tenacity, their grit, uh, their ability to make things happen, their ability to deal with ambiguity and the chaos associated with running a startup, their capability of building a good culture that will be resilient. So, uh, it starts with the team, for me, and then the other sorts of things we try to look at are, is it a compelling problem that they're solving? Ah, is it something that's meaningful? Can they build an economic moat around what they're doing? Is there some differentiation? Or is it just an execution play where they've got to kind of go really fast? Understanding those things is important. Is it a big market? Typically you like to see startups that address at least a billion dollar total addressable market so that they can build the business in a way that it can be acquired by someone else, uh, at a multiple to what you've invested in. So those are kind of table stakes things that we look at. But I'd say for me it always starts with the team.

Speaker A: The thing I will add on behalf of our members, we did some customer discovery a couple of years ago with uh, Archangel alliance members, really asking them what they were looking for because we're industry agnostic, a lot of them wanted to understand the business model. I know all of us on the call have listened to pitches where undoubtedly the founder is extremely smart, but if you don't understand what they're talking about on the other end, it's hard to buy into the business model. So someone that really understands their audience and can communicate in a way where they can convey that they know what they're doing but also include you, um, and understanding where they're headed is important.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a great call out. And the, you know, the difference between what is a hobby versus what is a business, uh, if you can sell it to someone and someone's going to pay you out of their, out of their own pocket, you've got an interesting business here. But until you get to that point, it's, it gets a little bit different there. Um, and it's a little bit of a different thing that you might be betting on. I'm curious Amy, on the Archangel alliance, how was 2023 for all of you? Um, maybe give some great milestones or anything like that that happened. We certainly had some great transitions that we've talked about on some of the previous episodes, but what's going on with Archangel alliance right now?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'm really proud of our executive director, Melissa Kemkiss. She is a new addition to team in 2023. She's a part time director, uh, on the side. I shouldn't. We're probably on the side. She's got a startup company that's little, uh, rock based with one of another, one of our board members, Elise Johnston. She's really focused on helping us recruit earlier career investors to the group. She's also got excellent relationships with Oklahoma particularly, but also regionally for Deal Flow. And I think, you know, Jeff, you know, can probably talk to this as well. But I think we've seen better Deal Flow, um, through her leadership and I'm, um, Excited to see where she takes the organization.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. I think Melissa, she has the background and she kind of comes from the space, which is usually helpful, but some of it is just, uh, exercising your network efficiently and getting people to go ahead and go through a somewhat rigorous process to upload stuff into the GUST application and, and then. And then energizing all of the members and the board members to make sure that they're being diligent and engaged and actually offering up things that they see in their own networks makes a big difference. But Melissa has brought a level of energy to the position that's been really helpful.

Speaker A: I agree. And then as far as milestones go, for 2023, we invested. I say we, our members invested a little over two and a half million. Um, and you know, we did. We don't exclusively show our members Arkansas deals, but over 90% of them of those investments were in Arkansas companies. So I'm proud to say that we are, uh, positively impacting economic development here in our state as a group.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I love that focus there. And, um, it's one of the things that us, on the 412 side, I always tell entrepreneurs that, you know, we as a group are looking at investment opportunities not just in Arkansas, but across the region, but we're prioritizing the ones in Arkansas. So, like, you're going to be. You're going to be at the front of the line. You're still going to be graded against everybody else, but you are at the front of the line on that front. And so whenever I do talk to entrepreneurs that are based here, um, you know, that's. It is an area that we try to emphasize on that front. And we want to, we want to be able to, both on the investor side and the founder side, we want a larger diversity of prospective companies and investment opportunities to level everybody up. Right? That's. That's kind of the goal with this is, um, is to be able to continue to level up the playing field that exists there as well. Um, I'd be curious as well. I can provide even a little bit of perspective on even just what I've seen on the northwest Arkansas side. But it's interesting seeing, you know, northwest Arkansas and Tulsa and then Little Rock. I'm curious, you know, Amy or Jeff, in the, in the time that you all have been, you know, around angel investing and all of that, have you seen any significant similarities? Have you seen any significant differences maybe between the two regions? I'm curious on what Yalls thought processes are there

Speaker B: you want to start with that one, Amy?

Speaker A: Sure, I will. I will say one thing that I've really admired in the northwest Arkansas community is that entrepreneurship and early stage investments seem to have grown in the fabric of how you all are positioning yourself, uh, economically and culturally up there. And that is one thing, especially with younger people. I, um, think Little Rock has room to grow. We probably have a longer history of investments, I would say, Jeff, you can speak to this better than I can, but the growth I've seen has been intergenerational in northwest Arkansas and I'd like to see more of that happen in Little Rock.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's fair commentary. They're just two very different places. Little, uh, Rock, it has, is a more traditional southern city, kind of more traditional industries there in many respects very strong in finance and fintech and government and university and health care. But it's kind of traditional. Whereas 60% of the people in Northwest Arkansas are from somewhere else. So you've got this kind of interesting melting pot that tends to refresh the talent pool on a very regular basis, very rapid growing pace. It's not to say one's better or, or worse than the other. They're just different really. And consequently with that and also with the sector differences, you tend to get some different stuff happening up here. You tend to get a lot of things that are focused on retail, uh, supply chain food and beverage, some health tech related stuff, uh, more recently advanced mobility. A lot of conversations around that just because of the interest in the area, outdoor recreation. Some of these things have not just randomly occurred, but it's been driven by things that are of interest in the place making aspects of what the Waltons do. So if you think about all the trails, their intentionality around outdoor recreation, how to turn ventures into that, uh, all of that has brought about things that might otherwise be located somewhere else lives in would be a good example of that. An outdoor apparel company has interest in investment from RZC Investments, Tom and Stuart Walton's group, amongst other capital. But that's one that given any other set of parameters, given its outdoor apparel, were there not an intentionality some years back about that making a focus, they might have gone somewhere else. They could have been in Colorado or could have been in the west coast or just about anywhere else. I think those are some of the differences. You see, we're trying to build on what the Waltons and The Tysons and J.B. hunt and others did in the area, but with completely new, uh, startups and ventures that are not necessarily Completely similar to what's happened here in the past.

Speaker A: And Jeff, totally agree with these comments. What I'm really excited about from a statewide perspective, and this is kind of putting on my other hat for the Arkansas Research alliance, we've embarked on a project to update Arkansas's core research focus areas with a lens towards Arkansas industry. And so I think what's going to come out of this data and report it's narrowing out around seven areas where Arkansas could really go from good to great. And I expect that investments on both the public side as well as the private side, um, will align with that data. And so I'm excited to see how we use it as a state not only for, you know, investing in research, but also investing in entrepreneurs who are adjacent to or coming out of that

Speaker B: research and coming soon. And just to follow on with the important points that Amy made there is a bunch of us attended the um, Lithium Innovation Summit, the Arkansas Lithium Innovation Summit, and in a place in South Arkansas that's had a long history with the smack overplay of oil and gas and bromine production, well, it turns out it's 15% of the world's supply of lithium as well. So in the scheme of things, as electrification grows, you've got these four relatively well established publicly traded companies that are figuring, figuring out how to do extraction and next level processing. But we would be missing the opportunity as a state if we didn't also look at, well, geez, maybe we need advanced manufacturing technologies, maybe we need AI software, maybe we need more things that are going to focus on the kind of educational resources required in terms of startups to build the workforce. Uh, there's a value chain, supply chain opportunity there to build an innovation ecosystem that will in turn make for lots of early stage angel investment opportunities in the new companies that will sprout around that. Uh, imagine if you could take the clock back 65 years and you're sitting in Bentonville and somebody said, well, there's this gold brick called Walmart that's going to be created. What could you do around all of that? They didn't have the benefit of that. It all happened organically and it's great, but now we can, we can kind of see how these things work. And I think we've got a real opportunity in the case of South Arkansas to do some amazing things that will be great for early stage investors.

Speaker A: And Jeff, just to uh, echo that point, I'm also seeing something similar in northeast Arkansas around the steel industry. We just saw recently the state investing in Arkansas State and research that supports that industry. I think there's opportunity there as well.

Speaker B: Could not agree more. And it's a little known fact that Mississippi county, uh, is the largest steel producing county in the country now. So it's, that's something most people wouldn't associate with Arkansas, but there's all the other value chain and supporting industry that can happen there as well.

Speaker C: Yeah. And to me the thing that I hear through all of this that I really love to see is whether it's the Northeast, the Northwest, the south, the center part of the state. If you are coming to this world from a, from a perspective like angel investing perspective, you've got a diversity of uh, industry knowledge and experience and background coming from all of these different areas. You've then got startups that are created that are going to be diverse and different between all of these different parts, um, of the state. And so for me, what I love seeing and what I try to tell my folks is building out a diverse portfolio of um, companies you invest in and a network that you're building. Um, don't just pull it in from one area because that'll likely give you maybe a little bit of ah, less of a world to work around. Pull in from all of these different areas, look at investment opportunities and groups, uh, that you want to invest with all across the different parts of the state. And to me that helps bring in like a broader diversity, uh, into your own portfolio and into your own mindset there.

Speaker B: It's really true. It's really true. One thought about that, just one quick thought about that. Is the one rule that Warren Buffett rule says invest only in things that you understand well, uh, for anybody that's grown up within a particular industry, that can be a pretty tight silo. But you can defeat that by participation in things like the Archangel Alliance, 412 angels. Because guaranteed there's going to be somebody in the room there that can go as deep as you'd want to go in any of these companies that present any of these opportunities that allows you to leverage that subject matter expertise in a way that you don't get to if you invest on your own and outside of being part of a group. I think it's really a good point for why these sorts of organizations are a good place to start if you haven't done it before.

Speaker A: That's a great point, definitely.

Speaker C: All right, we've got two, I might add in my third is like the half. But at least two really smart minds uh, in the room right now that have been working with Some of this angel investing. And I want, uh, for the entrepreneurs that are going to be listening in, um, for both of you all, what thematic advice do you give to, uh, entrepreneurs or founders that are looking to raise capital from angels or angel syndicates? Do you have any advice for them on how this world works or how to successfully go and raise from this group different than maybe a venture capital group or something like that? So curious on Yalls thoughts related to that.

Speaker B: Amy, kick us off.

Speaker A: I was going to say same thing to you, Jeff. Uh, I mean, in this world, especially in a place like Arkansas, relationships are everything. Um, in my opinion, someone who's relatively new to the state, the whole state of Arkansas sort of operates like one big city. Um, so I would say yes, you're pitching, but you're also developing a relationship. And even if the answer is no, at that moment, you, I think our members are really willing to step in and mentor and connect and so taking advantage of that opportunity as well. So even if you do get investment or you don't, the opportunity doesn't just end at the pitch in Arkansas. I think, um, you know, leaning on these folks is in their best interest and leveraging those relationships.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's really good. I would, I would say, I always say do as much research on the group that you're going to pitch to as they're going to inevitably do on you when they do the due diligence. Make sure you understand the personalities and what they've invested in before and check size and stage and all that. And it's true for angel groups as well. I mean, look at some of the other things they've invested in. Call, talk to other founders, find out how are they to deal with, ah, what was the process like, etc. You need lots of at bats. To use a baseball kind of analogy, you need lots of at bats. You're going to hear no a lot. But I would say in this state in particular and with these groups, we'll give you feedback. If it's a no, we'll tell you this is why it wasn't a fit. This is why it doesn't fit with my investment thesis. But these are people you ought to talk to, or these are some things you really need to focus on and square away, or these are the areas of risk we see that you didn't address adequately. And sometimes it could be a no for today, but not a no forever. And I think in some ways, uh, angel groups are a little more giving in that regard than most VC funds would Be. And there are exceptions. At Cadwin, we try to provide really candid feedback to people, and if it's a pass, we tell them why, or if they ask, we'll give them details. Uh, uh, all of the angel groups here that I've seen are that way. You've got a lot of people that have walked in the shoes of the entrepreneurs and angel groups that know how difficult it was and want to be supportive. I mean, they really do kind of feel the pain of the entrepreneur in a very direct way.

Speaker C: Yeah, I couldn't, couldn't agree more on that side. Um, you know, when I, when I'm talking to, uh, different entrepreneurs, the thing that I tell them on what's, what's different about, about angel groups is like me or Melissa or Amy with Archangel, uh, on that side, weirdly enough, we're not the ones you have to convince. Right. You have to start off with convincing us, but then you've got to go convince a bunch of other people as well to sort of say yes on that front. And so, um, there's a little bit, I think more work that sometimes involved to get, you know, 10 people to say yes is sometimes a little bit more different than one. But I think for me, the value prop is you've now got 10 people on your team if they're going to write a check for you versus maybe one entity or one fund on that side. And so that to me is like, it's a little bit more work. But I think the upside that comes with it is there's a lot more value on the other side, hopefully, at least.

Speaker B: And some of it is preparation, too. And it doesn't matter whether it's a VC fund or an angel group. But one of the things is most entrepreneurs kind of the rite of passage will become good at the choreography of doing a good presentation, telling a good story, being able to work their way through it. But the game is completely won and lost most times in Q and A. The Q and A is sort of that forensic part of the process where if I can ask a few questions and you don't have relevant knowledge to your customer or the industry you're in, you're dead to me at that point.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, not in a literal sense, but I'm not going to carry it forward. I'm just. I've asked you those sort of questions as I would anyone that I expect a level of expertise from. And if there's gaps in your knowledge that are really kind of gaping, that's a risk. That's an execution risk for me, in which case I'm probably not going to go forward. So preparation is important. Really understanding your industry well enough on the Q and A that you can provide crisp and relevant answers. And if you do genuinely not know something, because sometimes it's a little bit of a gotcha to see how far you can probe being forthright to say, you know, that's a great question, I don't know that I'll find out and I'll get right back. And then actually following up, uh, and providing that information, those are all ways that I think you can work your way through the process.

Speaker A: Well, and I think also because sometimes you're given parameters around how long your pitch should be. There's different formats for every group that you pitch to. I think really making sure that key components of your message are included. I mean, we just recently heard a pitch where they got off a call and everyone was asking, remind me what was their revenue model? And uh, it wasn't in the pitch. Right. So just making sure that you recognize what investors care about. Right. Like obviously they want to help you, but they also want to make money. So telling them how you're going to make money is key.

Speaker B: And it's so completely true sometimes, particularly if you have really seasoned entrepreneurs, they've got kind of the curse of success in some ways. And sometimes they'll gloss over those important points that you just have to hit. In which case you're left wondering, well, we know these folks might be rock stars, but they didn't explain sort of the fundamentals of what are we investing in? What do we get? What's the business model? How do you make money? And you can't leave any of that to assumption. You really have to be very clear and tell a very clear and concise story. Or else, you know, it's all, it's a first impression thing. Some of us see a thousand pitches a year. If there's any warts on it at all, I'm going to be like, I got better things to do with my time. I'll go on to the next one.

Speaker A: They're not going to, they're, they're most likely not going to chase you down.

Speaker B: Right, Exactly.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a good call out. And it's, you know, also recognizing that a lot of angels, uh, this is their part time gig. If you're talking to a venture capitalist. Right. It's their full time gig. They're in this every day of the week. Um, Saturdays and Sundays are a little bit different. They come from different backgrounds and this is a little bit different. So you have to be very clear and concise. I couldn't agree more. Um, I'll flip over to the other side of the world, right. We're running two sided marketplaces with investors on one side and founders on the other side. For someone that was interested maybe in joining an angel investor group, um, what advice would each of you give them as they were evaluating? Should I join? What group should I join? Um, I'll toss it over to Jeff to start.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, for starters, there's strength in numbers and there's different models that are out there. There's some models where they're sort of casual and they're more forum oriented and you can attend it and it's sort of, there's not sort of a high threshold for membership. There's some models where there is a membership and the membership is intended to capture all of that administrator associated with it. Both models are good. I would say what I would do is evaluate who else is there, uh, and are you going to enjoy spending time around them? Are you going to get some value from being with those other members? You really, uh, the value here, the quid pro quo is not just I'm going to see great deals, but I'm going to be able to expand my network with other really smart people that I probably ought to know, even though I didn't realize it. So some of that is just an evaluation of am I going to enjoy hanging out with them, is it going to be fun, am I going to learn something, am I going to add some value, that sort of thing.

Speaker A: And my advice as someone who's uh, a new investor is recognizing that the learning curve is steep for everyone. And I think there's been, I think just inherently there's a lot of mystery and exclusivity associated with this asset class because the folks that have been investing for a long time are generally quite successful, smart individuals. And it can be intimidating to come in and feel like I need to be an expert, but I'm not. And I think just recognizing that no one is an expert and the folks that you think are probably still learning about it. And so like Jeff said, just are you comfortable asking for the help that you're going to need? Right. I mean, I talked about Melissa and her knowledge. I'm calling her all the time with my own personal investment question just because I, uh, feel comfortable doing that. And so I think having someone that will mentor you and that you're comfortable doing outreach to is important.

Speaker B: And Add one thing there, and this is something that's difficult, particularly for driven people, is it's okay to go into it with a child like mine, where you might ask the question that you think everybody else already knows the answer to, because maybe they don't. I mean, sometimes the best questions are asked by those people that aren't really well versed in a particular vertical or a particular business. And it might be one of those things where it's like, God, we all should have asked that. That's like the most obvious thing. And so I would say, just don't be afraid. If you get into the right kind of group, with the right culture, people are patient. People, uh, are going to enjoy the. That you're going through the learning process and are going to want to help. And some of the questions you'll ask from that position of not having the experience are sometimes the very best questions.

Speaker C: Couldn't agree more on that one. Couldn't agree more. Yeah. Having, um. You know, as someone phrased it, to me, I like your version, childlike mindset. The way that it was described to me, maybe in the last decade, is the sometimes walking in, being the dumbest person in the room. Um, and to me, there's value in being kind of having. I like the phrasing better of having a childlike mindset, of walking in and being comfortable asking any question on that. Because back to your point, it's those that are in industries that have that significant knowledge, sometimes have a little bit of baggage, because you're the one that's getting. Trying to be disrupted on that front. And so coming in with a very fresh perspective can be a great value add. Um, well, we're coming into the tail end here. Uh, maybe. Last question for y'. All. What are the plans for 2024? Um, uh, right now, we're about a quarter into. Into 2024. It sounds like some great successes from Archangel on, uh, on 2023. What. What does good look like for y'?

Speaker A: All?

Speaker C: What's the plan for 2024 as you head into the rest of the year, Amy?

Speaker A: Uh, for me, I think outreach is the most important. As Jeff mentioned, there's strength in numbers when it comes to angel investing, especially having more folks with, um, tailored experience, listening to these pitches and giving honest, good feedback that comes from their own experience. I want to see more of that. I want to see earlier career folks recognizing this is an asset class that can be part of their portfolio and feeling empowered to take advantage of it. I mean, I know that's a really bold goal, and I think it'll probably be that for the next five to 10 years. But I think, um, we've got to tap into a different generation to make sure that our companies here in Arkansas have the capital that they need here in our state, um, or the connections. Right. And can stay here and thrive.

Speaker C: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Go ahead, Jeff.

Speaker B: That. That was well said. That was well said. I think we have to. In order to have an energized group, you have to have people that are still kind of at a point in their career where this is interesting and exciting to them. It's not the slightest bit of philanthropy or I have to do it because I made a ton of money and I'm kind of at the tail end of my career. We need that energy from people that are still engaged just by the reality of that they're going to be better from a standpoint of mentoring and more engagement with the companies, et cetera. From the company side and from a group side as well, I guess. I think we're going to continue to see good valuations, more realistic valuations. I think there's still things that are red hot. Like anything that's got AI in it has probably got a bloated valuation. So you constantly have to look for, is there a real business model there and is there traction and whatnot? But I think there's a reset, as there often is every eight or ten years. Back to fundamental economics. What's the business model? How's the capital being spent? And I think as a consequence, we're going to see better deals at early and even mid stage in the angel group than we might have in 20 and 21.

Speaker C: Yeah, I certainly agree with that. I think, um, you had 2021 and 2022 where folks got a little bit over their skis from, uh, valuations they were jumping into. I think folks are experiencing a little bit of that pain right now. And I think there is that natural reset that I think we saw last year and we're going to see more of it this year. I agree. And I think walking in both on the investor side and the founder side with those types of expectations that this is a market, things go up, things go down, and, you know, understanding what current market conditions are is certainly, uh, is certainly a real thing. I think for the 412 angels, my, my thought process this year is I want to get a really interesting and diverse set of deals in front of the group, um, to me, and prodding in a few different areas, you know, We're. We're younger than the Archangel alliance, and so we're still sort of figuring out where do the members have interest and what verticals are really interesting to them, what stages, etc. And so I'm going to be, uh, experimenting a little bit this year and figuring out where does money flow versus not flow. And so that's kind of my goal is, uh, in 2024 is a little bit of that learning stage right now. So I'm really excited for what's ahead for the next year. Um, Jeff, Amy, thank you so much for taking some time out today. Uh, it's been a pleasure talking to y'. All. Uh, some great. Some great wisdom, I think we have, um, in this state specifically, and really in the region, we've got really good folks that are working on getting access to capital for earlier stage companies and building out that pipeline of risk capital that is fun and interesting and innovative to be a part of. And so I appreciate your time, uh, for the last little bit, but I appreciate your time more just in the work that you're doing outside of this. And, uh, thanks so much for being on the podcast today.

Speaker A: Thanks for having us, Quinn. I mean, shooting that right back at you. What you're doing in Northwest Arkansas and beyond is extremely important to the state, and we all have similar goals here, and I'm glad that we're collaborating.

Speaker B: Well said. I mean, thanks for having us. And you do a great job on the podcast and all that you do, and so really appreciate you having us on today.

Speaker C: Appreciate that. Appreciate that. All right, well, we'll wrap that up, uh, for folks that have tuned in listening to this. Thanks so much for, for your time. Uh, and, uh, if you've not checked out any of our other episodes in the series, go check them out and, uh, we'll catch you at the next one that you listen to. Thanks for tuning in.