The Digital Product Passport Standard Is Here: Thomas Knothe on JTC 24, AI, and the Future of Physical Products

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Speaker D: Huge news in the world of physical AI. Just three weeks ago, the European Union's censer standards teams finalized the first ever standard for Digital Product Passports. JTC24 is massive in its importance and its scope, initially covering car batteries, but extending to many other categories of products. This is a standard that's backed up by mandatory legislation, so adoption is assured and it's something that impacts everyone that wants to sell products into any of the European Union countries. The implications are big for manufacturers, uh, for retailers, for consumers and also for anyone that is interested in the convergence of artificial intelligence agents, commerce, digital physical integration. So we have the best person in the world to talk to uh, about that, Professor Thomas Cote, who is the chair of JTC24 which is a group of hundreds of experts and specialists in this area of dpp. And we've got an amazing uh, discussion, uh, that's far ranging with him, uh, exploring, explaining uh, the timing, the scope, what the implications of this and digging into this uh, AI physical world convergence which is really going to be critical for people that want to sell products in the future. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. The Mr. Beacon Ambient IoT Podcast is sponsored by Identiv, whose IoT solutions create digital identities for physical objects enhancing global connectivity for business people in the planet by bleak to enable physical products to communicate with cloud applications using Bluetooth Flow Energy and by ambientchat AI. We connect people, places, products and brands with a digital assistant using AI and ambient IoT. Thomas, welcome back to the podcast. It's just a uh, real, real pleasure to have you back on this momentous. Occasion.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you so much. Um, I remember last time was really in a hurry uh, as well the eevee. So when you asked me I thought okay, of course, um, I like to talk with you again because this was now more than one year ago. Time blows by so fast and this was so amazing, so intensive and even today it's still quite crazy what's going on.

Speaker D: Yes, well I have to congratulate you. I think what you've pulled off uh, with leading a uh, huge team uh, in um, getting a real standard that is complete for digital product passports for the SENS, JTC24 to give its technical term, it's important and part of what I want to ask you but later on uh, is how you did it because is so huge and we've got a lot to talk about, you know, towards the end I actually want to talk about your day job where you've been implementing I think uh, reference implementations, test uh, harnesses for this to make the standard, help make the standard come to life. But I do want to hear uh, from you how things changed, you know, what's new from uh, 14 months ago when we last spoke. How did the standard evolve on its journey to compute completion? And I do want to get your latest perspective on why it's important how it's going to be used. We also need to talk about what it is in some detail. But maybe for those people less familiar with this important EU standard, maybe we should just start off doing a level set to get people to understand at a very high level what and why jtc24, uh, could you set the scene maybe?

Speaker C: Yes, thank you so much. I think that's um, to introduce into DPP digital product passport system and in particular to the European Union one it's always not um, very easy. So I'm still frustrated that my explanations are not good enough because whenever I talk about that um, it's still very much tacking and um, I have the impression I have to improve um, the explanations much, much more. So even I talk in webinars every week or twice a week, whatever. But anyhow, uh, what's behind this uh, digital product passport? It's these digital twin of products with the notion to provide the information based on a product. This conformity, circularity, what is interesting for um, consumers in a standardized form but selective for different stakeholders in a way that's easy to access. This is the idea behind, so that it is at least one set of data provided by a uh, so to speak economic operators and there's a Manufacturer or an importer because we are talking for a European system as a pioneer for that. And then at least different stakeholders get different access to the data. And this makes this idea at least sexy because this increases um, applicability and uh, efficiency. This is the idea behind. Yes, it should be fancy, it should be interesting. Um, for uh, consumers for instance, there should be, not bought, there should be, let me say inspired by that. And um, this is the idea behind this is what we are, let me say for where we are aiming for. In total there are a lot of people saying yes, this is the right one. Even this came from these uh, so to speak, boring institutions, from European Commission, from our government and so on. But we see to which extent this can bring um, improvement and benefits for um, entire um, partners in uh, our digital product data ecosystem. At least. This is the idea behind in, in total from the, from the, let me say from the ar. Yeah, yeah. So and in order to make this happen we um, have to bring or we have to provide a system which um, is on the one hand efficient and easy to use and on the other hand uh, at least uh, secure, safe and especially protecting, for instance IPRs. Yeah. And this is at least um, the challenge we have. Yeah.

Speaker D: And when you say I protecting IPRs, what do you mean by that?

Speaker C: Yes, you can imagine in batteries uh, uh, have very, we say competitive product details.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: How is the chemistry, how are the cells organized and so on.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And of course to some extent those data is important, for instance for the recycler to know what's in it and how it is in order to see what we can do with this old battery. At the same time this information is important or useful for the competitor.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Well this means we have to foresee that uh, the right people or right stakeholders get the right data. This is about IPR for instance.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And this is now very as we say, clear from the product IPR perspective. Yeah. But you can imagine if you are a company who is um, uh, selling um, let me say chemical material all over the world, then it's quite, quite interesting for some partners to know how many volume you are providing on chemistry to China or to uh, some to other markets and so on in order to um, squeeze you, in order to see what you can do and so on. This is important to protect those data, to see. Okay. To hide your data about your market. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: I mean so just to pause and interject here, you know, knowledge is power. Right. And what we're talking about is unlocking and empowering consumers to vote with their wallets. And up until now, our process is sort of almost medieval. You know, uh, if you think about how we brought up byproducts today, it's not a million miles from going up to some Middle Ages store where you see these products, where do they come from? What are they? We really don't know. And okay, someone wrote something on there. Is that real? I mean, there's a lot more organic products sold than are actually produced. So we know that counterfeit is, uh, terrible. We know that certain products are produced with slave labor. Uh, we know that certain products are produced that destroy the environment because there's clear cutting of forests. And so if we're going to have any chance of recycling products, uh, and moving on from this sort of medieval state, we have to arm, um, everyone in the supply chain with information. But as you pointed out, intellectual property rights can be used against people in the supply chain. And so I am. We'll pop back up to the high level in a minute, but I have to go down this rabbit hole. How on earth did you resolve this challenge that you just described? Uh, so that this information isn't used against the manufacturer by their competitors or by even their customers who squeeze them and yet provide the information that the recycler needs to know in order to be able to recycle the battery. How do you solve that problem?

Speaker C: Yeah, of course you cannot solve by a standard the entire problem for each product separately. And of course I'm not allowed to tell you, let me say the details of the standards because this is as well, subject of ipr. Yeah, you have to buy this. I can give you, uh, some principles and how to organize this because I'm a scientist in the field of enterprise interoperability and data protection is part of that. So the very important part is first to provide, um, the right risk assessment. Because for some products it's not important, um, to protect itr. For some m. Parts of the product, yes. So this means based on a risk assessment and then to um, assign the right, um, um, safety level. It's already half of the game. And what we made is to define the methodology for that so that the authorities, um, the European Commission can take this instrument looking to a specific product group in the, uh, interaction, um, with the industry, with our associations, to define, um, the right, um, data sets and the protection levels. So this is already the first part and uh, of course, first things first. Protection in Europe is much more important than in U.S. you see, you have VMO and others, uh, um, that you say have unmanned guided, uh, cars already. M We have similar technologies, but of course um, we have some other regulations that do not allow something. Um, but anyhow, this is even individual, not only for product groups as well in different regions in the world. This is based on regulation, based on culture. So what we made is to um, develop uh, and to define a framework where you can set the right safety level and security level of data. And this is of course done by already existing achievements. So we did not invent the wheel. M. But anyhow, this is new in the application of uh, digital product passport. So now we have it. Now we will try um, out and see how far we can come and then we will adjust.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And of course first things first, security and then see how to deal with that. And the idea is to start simple with that, to do not go too much into risk on that. That's the issue.

Speaker D: Um, so is the principle that not everyone can see everything, that certain people will see certain things.

Speaker C: Is that certain roles? Yeah. And you're not allowed to uh, um, go into the bank treasure from something of your US Bank. This is only possible by people who have the authorization for that. And um, in Europe we are currently set up a system of, so to speak, UD wallet, um, where we have um, at least a set of club cards, uh, with some credentials and permissions and all these things. And this um, is a part of, not of our standards, but we are using that. So you have some roles, some of them allowing you to see some details of the data. Um, and of course then you need maybe as well as well certifications to. To be on the side. Yeah. For instance, in Europe we have the market surveillance. They can see everything. But of course they have to authorize themselves in order to get the data. And the good news in, in our European system is that the data are decentralized. The data are belonging to the economic operator. Yeah. Uh, no specific data in. In a registry or central database. So this means the data owner have the sovereignty of it.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And this is one of the first principles we just fulfilled by design. So we don't need to um, let me say trust European Commission about everything of our data. Data is still there, where the data comes from.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And this at least, um, this helps a lot.

Speaker D: Very good. So later on in our conversation, I do want to find out from you how people can buy copies of the standard. Uh, and I also want to go into how it works, what are the components. But let's pop up to the top level, the high level. Uh, Again and just say, um. So you mentioned batteries, which is one of the areas where the mandate is imminent. I mean, so tell us, um, can you summarize the kind of the most important uh, product domains where this will be applying and if it's possible, uh, a little bit about the timing of those, uh, in terms of compliance and uh, what's available now?

Speaker C: Yes. Uh, we have some deadlines already because of regulation and every battery, uh, with certain properties, uh, have to have the DPP from 18th of February 2027.

Speaker D: Okay. So February of next year.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. Um, and this means there are at least three types of batteries. One are the batteries for the EV cars.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And even for hybrid ones, this means no starter battery. Um, then we have the batteries for the lmt. These are the light means of transportation. It are the bicycle, the scooters and so on.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Then we have the industry batteries with um, um, an energy um of more than uh, 2 kilowatt hours. So for forklifts and so on. And it's quite clear why European Commission made this selection. Uh, because those are the increasing ones in the market. They consume a lot of raw materials which have to be in a circle. Um, in Europe because a lot of

Speaker D: them we do not have circle as in the circular economy. Right. We want to get our only chance

Speaker C: to keep it in the. In, in, in. In the circle because of our um, short breaks, um, on, on. On those materials and the. Based on this risk analysis, European Commission made some choices of product groups already long time ago. So from the perspective of uh, climate change and uh, carbon footprint. Of course construction material is important. Yeah. You know, cement and so on needs a lot of energy. So this was clear from the beginning to, to start with the ones which have the biggest impact for. To into our environment.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: You know all the problems and I guess this is the same in US like we have in. In Europe. Is. Is everything about textile.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Fast fashion and all these things. Um, then bring this um, to Africa and uh, pollute Africa. Of course this is as well a um, priority product. At least step by step from the European perspective are cars in total. Because still we are exporting racks to Africa.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Uh, still it's really an issue. So this means you can imagine Commission or European Commission selected the most critical one.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Once for the first. Um. And then to have it step by step product per product group. And this is from the one perspective. From one perspective, very m. Um, let me say, um, useful at least. On the other hand, the, the batteries are quite complicated.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Implementing. So I'm not quite sure if it was wise to use the batteries because a lot of things are still unclear and this makes a lot of fog. So the companies who are implementing that means the European car industry, which struggles anyway, has a lot of burden, a lot of costs, effort to do this because it is a pilot and you know, a pilot is always in trouble. So yes, last time I explained, I think already I'm not only doing um, the uh, standardization, we are performing the implementation in the industry. This means for car industry already. So we see what does it mean? So that is not just a nice story to have this dpp. The circularity and everything is fine. It's still really, really a heck of work. Ah.

Speaker D: And your work on the implementation, that's through uh, Frankhofer, um, the Institute for Production Systems and Design Technology. So this is really good that you know that if the standard's impossible, it's going to be very difficult to do your day job. So you.

Speaker C: Uh, yes, of course I have to eat my man your dog food as well. So. And of course for sure there is criticism. Yeah. Hey Thomas, what you had done there, um, it's okay. But I'm a scientist, so for sure validation is important.

Speaker D: So batteries first and that's kind of the pilot. And inevitably there's going to be teething challenges there then. Um, so construction materials and uh, textiles will follow.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: Roughly. When will those be?

Speaker C: Um, that's a good question. Normally we have a nice timeline. Means already in 2027 some construction materials come into the game. It is planned, but I'm not quite sure if this will be happen. So I hope that commission and others, um, will first learn from the experiences from the batteries and then adapt the timeline. This would be my wish, but um. This is our government. Yeah.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: I'm not quite sure if you can go to Mr. Trump and say, oh, I would like to have something different and he will listen. I don't know. It's similar to our commission even. It's, It's a huge job for them as well.

Speaker D: So.

Speaker C: And of course we are in a quite, uh, intensive interaction, that's for sure. So I'm um, mostly happy with the interaction between standardization and European Commission and even the industry partners and so on. It is um, it's quite amazing. But it's a huge job with m. A lot of challenges and we will see. Yeah. So that issue.

Speaker D: So there's been some. Sounds like sensible prioritization in terms of uh, uh, the impact, environmental impact and the size and we all See these uh, uh, electric scooters just everywhere. It seems like every person under 18 has got one. Even here in the states where the car is uh, king and then any other groups that are kind of in the next wave. I think uh, was toys were part of this at some point.

Speaker C: Yes, of course, toys, um, there I guess the circularity is not the issue. It's more the um, uh, environmental issues means which kind of plastics but as well the source uh, of production. Because all we know the working conditions in those kind of factories. And this is one of the part why toys came into the game. But I think what is um, even maybe more important is the issue of keeping conformity or conform products in the market. Because especially in toys we are importing a lot. And um. Now I give you a number. Our market surveillance is able to check the conformity of products today by 0.025% of our imported products. So they are floated um, by products bought by the large um, platforms. Uh, and today they have no chance. And I think this and toys are uh, typical um, products where um. We have a uh, safety issue. Yeah. Because small kids are playing with that and all these things. Yeah. You have to look for chemicals, um, for let me say broken parts and all these things you can imagine. Yeah. So this is my guess why toys went into the game. It's maybe not so much the circularity issue, it's more safety and conformity.

Speaker D: Yeah. I mean these are uh, you know, our most precious members of the family. Our children are sticking things in their mouths and uh, uh we have no idea where they came from. And so we. That totally makes sense.

Speaker C: I think this is very reasonable to have this, to have the selection. So you can see our um, um ministries means the European Commission, they made um, let me say good choices from the perspective of um, um the risk of a product.

Speaker D: So can you um, bring to life maybe what in February of next year, all being well, um. What will happen? I buy my uh, e bike, uh, and I pull the battery out. If everything goes to plan, what will the user experience be? How will I see the data? What data will I be able to see?

Speaker C: Yes. What is maybe for the consumer in the first choice? I'm not quite sure if this is a big effect for buying a battery because today you can see already capacities and all these things.

Speaker D: Mhm. Mm.

Speaker C: That's already possible today without having a passport. Yeah. Because the. For the scooters I'm not quite sure because I'm not in the game. For cars it's different. Yeah. Yeah, but where it comes um, is when you have products where you would like to have the possibility to, of repairability. Yeah. So this means even electrical tools, power tools and all these things are uh, in the game as well. So. And it's so frustrating having a lot of products and buying products and then there is a small thing broken and you have to remove everything.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: So this is for me really a nightmare. Um, and this is not only happened with uh, power tools, it's happened with everything at least in our um, let me say waste oriented economy.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And I'm not alone with this feeling at least. Yeah. So you're not. I, I had a damage on my window, uh, of my um, roof window in my house. Um, and I just uh, made a photo and sent to a repairer and he told me, oh, uh, Thomas, this entire uh, window has to be removed. And I was quite upset. And then I googled and tried to do something and had seen, oh, there's a possibility to repair.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And um, at the end last weekend I repaired my window, um, just spending 50 uh, euro had taken my screwdrivers and this was fine. So. And at least to know when you buy products, um, to know how about the repairability.

Speaker D: Yes, yes.

Speaker C: Uh, the huge improvement of um, customers and consumers experience. And this comes uh, step by step into the game. Um, and even here we have to work on that in a regulation. But there will be a scoring system. You know we have already an energy scoring system with ABC and so on. Um, and this repairability scoring system does look um, quite similar.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: So it's quite easy, you don't need to be an expert um, to see this and then you can compare, you see a very maybe cheat one which you cannot repair and there is something which only you can repair. And this is what really drives me to go with this DPP in order to um, have this user experience and the consumers experience in a way that they can at least take informed decisions. Because today we cannot.

Speaker D: Yes, yes.

Speaker C: Really, really drives me. Yeah. So this for the school time, I'm not quite sure because I'm not so um, that we say familiar with that or use cars is important to know how is the life status of the battery because the battery of uh, EV cars, the most expensive one. And we have a very big uh, uh, let me say used car economy at least. And this is for instance interesting. There are a lot more from the consumer's perspective where I see really, really good uh, opportunities and this goes really way beyond. So this is in the last Year we increased, um, the scope of, uh, application for DPP even more. Maybe it's too long for you, but, um. Last, uh, year I had to renovate my entire heating system. My heat pump had to be, um. Let me say, repaired. And um. And to some extent, um, at least modernized. And after 20 years. Okay. And um. I had a very typical, um, situation. There came the craftsmans into my house and said, um, okay, yes, we have to do something. We have to, um, install, um, this boiler. And I said, yes, this is true, but you have to do this, this and this as well. Ah, yes.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: Uh, okay. Let's have a look. He, uh, looked into my sanitation system and went back and said, oh, this kind of tubes I do not have in my, um. In my car. And I have even not the right tool for. For handling this. I have to go back to the store and take some new, uh, tubes. And I, uh, have to look for the. The tools. So it was really boring, really ridiculous. Because this craftsman, he wasted time.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And this is very typical. They come into the house and then they discover, oh, something is wrong. And then they go back to the shop. What we developed in our m. Um Institute is, um. A system where you can perform the digitization of the existing infrastructure automatically and provide to the craftsmans before they came into the house. So, um. We made not only a feasibility study, we, um, performed already really a pilot. And this in part of the electrical infrastructure of the house. So because we have the big switch box. And thanks to our, um. Um. Computer graphics and vision capabilities in our institute and. And all the digitization issue, um, we achieved that it can just take a smartphone, make a photo of your, um, connecting box. Based on, um, our capabilities. Um, with, um, artificial intelligence. They are generating all the data of the electrical installations of the entire house automatically. And provide this to a digital product passport of your house. And the electrician can see this in beforehand. See. Oh, this is, uh, coming from 20 years ago. And we had always problems, um, with this, um, switch and this kind of. We can repair this. Not. And this can be done in. Beforehand.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And this is a huge improvement. And this came into my mind, um, just last year when we had the first interview.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And I discussed this with our associations of electricians.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: One, um, week, two weeks after that, um, after our interview. And he said, wonderful. This is the right one. Because the DPP digital product passport of a electric, uh, installation which came new into the house today, has no benefit today because the benefit comes in 20 years. Then you have renovate and then we thought, okay, how to make it happen in an automatic way. Um, and the good news is, in September, we made the first pilot, um, in the house of the German association of Electricians, because they have an association, um, house, and everything is quite documented. And you just, um, performed the test. And from the first one, we had a trust level of more than 80% already. So this helps. This is something they, um, can reduce frustration and even reduce spending money. Yes, but what is driving us? Yeah, it's not just for a product you buy. It's even much more. And this is what we are driving for. This is where I'm staying, um, let me say, in the institute, overnight, whatever. Yeah. Because this.

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Speaker C: every style, every home.

Speaker D: It is very cool. And I'm so excited that you highlighted this link between artificial intelligence and digital product passports, because we know that AI is hungry for data. We know it's actually kind of run out of books to scan. But it hasn't run out of the real world. The real world is. And I believe that we're only just starting to think, uh, of the very first applications. But some people call this physical AI. And most people think when, um, the folks from Nvidia talk about physical AI, they're thinking robots and they're thinking cars. But when you describe this, this is, in my mind, a much bigger physical AI. This is a physical AI with trillions of things uh, and the ability for your personal robot or your chatbot or you know, uh, we're working on our own ambient chat, uh, assistant, the ability to scan a QR code or even sense, you know, rfid or ambient IoT Bluetooth tags. Suddenly DPPs become much more viable because, you know, I honestly believe that most human beings will be bored with the raw data, but they will love the idea of conveying to their AI assistant. Look, I want to um, lead a sustainable lifestyle. I want to make the world better, not worse, and give some very high level policy to their AI. And then the AI as it does the shopping, as it uh, looks at, uh, executing what we want. Then with dpp, the AI has the data that it needs in order to put into effect the things that are, you know, we sincerely want, we want to reduce our carbon footprint. But you know, we're human beings, we also want to watch the new Seinfeld, the latest, the old Seinfeld episodes or whatever. We're kind of trivial, but we're also principled. And the AI can kind of be our uh, personal ah, assistant in a much broader sense with this digital product passport. And I'm so pleased that you've actually put it into action. That's uh, amazing. Well done.

Speaker C: This is really interesting and this is in both directions, uh, because those data in a digital product passport are to some extent regulated. So you can trust them.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: So in all our nice search engines, the data coming from the digital product passport is much more value than others. Yeah. So we can deal with that.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: So already so the other way around, as I mentioned as well, AI for dpp, as I mentioned, uh, this is electrical infrastructure. So there are a lot of opportunities. And of course we had used this case because uh, we can um, at least live with not very, uh, much Precise data. Means 90% trust level is already better than nothing. Yeah.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: That's really where we are looking for and where we improve our capabilities. And of course there are some drawbacks, that's for sure. And this is where we are. So last was end of last year, I was invited by our um, general Craftsman's Association. Means this is our, let me say, roof of everything. Yeah. So this is our plumbers and so on. And they said, okay, Thomas, can you explain this, what you are doing with these electricians? And I said, yes, I can do, but I do not see any value for someone else. And so there were at least 12 or 13 different sectors, uh, even medical craftsmen or for medical technical issues and so on. Um, and I thought Okay, I will explain what we are doing with electricians. And then I was just asking, do you think this is useful for you? And I was really skeptical. I thought, okay, so the first answer will be, forget it. And then the first on the roof makers said, this is quite good. And so here's. So this means by having this inspiration, you come to completely new ideas.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And for a scientist, this is premium.

Speaker D: Here's an optimistic prediction for you. Uh, I think, um, you know, normally people, you say, oh, there's going to be DPPs for everything, and people's sort of eyes roll. But I really think DPP is going to be as important as for the physical world as search engine optimization is for websites. And, you know, in the future, AI will be buying products for us. You know, it'll be better at negotiating, it'll be better at. And so, um, in the same way as no major corporation would dismiss SEO, search engine optimization, they spend huge amounts of money. So what is the equivalent of SEO for the physical world? It's a dpp. If I don't have a DPP for my product, how can the AI even consider buying my product? It can't. And so I really think, uh, in the same way as no company would have a rubbishy website, uh, that wants to sell anything, I think that will apply to the digital product passport. It'll take a while, but that's. So I think your work will actually be adopted because manufacturers want to sell stuff, and they won't be able to sell stuff unless they have good DPP data. Because the people, the things that are buying are not human beings. They're going to be human beings with an AI agent in between. And the AI agent will want the data. If you don't have the data, uh, how can I even trust the thing that you're selling? I do want to make sure that we give people a sense of the structure of this standard. Uh, we've been talking for quite a long time, so we won't spend a huge amount of time on it, but I know from having seen earlier versions of the standard that it's pretty big. And what are the major components of the, the standard that people should understand?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: And, and if you can, is have there been any changes in the last year that we should know about?

Speaker C: Yes, I think they are not so big. That's my impression. But maybe that's because I'm behind this. Yeah, this is like a teacher telling, oh, this, um, math task is quite simple. So, yeah, it's, it's not so complicated. Yeah. What do you, what do you need? You have physical products. So this means you need a data carrier which is on this physical product and contains the link to the passport, uh, data. So with uh, a carrier is a QR code, an NSC ship, whatever. What we had done is to define in this standards, this standard for the data carrier, the requirements for those data carriers in order to a uh, low interoperability at least how the data is in this uh, data carrier. So how you can access this in all these things. This is in one standard for the data carrier. Then we have uh, the standard for the unique identifier. Of course the unique identifier on our side is at the end the link to the product data. Just an Internet link.

Speaker D: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: But we have as well unique identifiers for uh, the economic operators who are responsible for the data. So you can assign that. That's very important.

Speaker D: And then, ah, to interrupt you briefly, an example of an economic operator, because that's not.

Speaker C: It's an original equipment manufacturer.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: Who is bringing a product into the market. Yeah. This is one example. Another example is purely an importer. He is responsible for putting a product into the market and uh, establish into the market. And of course they are responsible for the data and you need a unique identifier to them in order to catch. It's quite easy so that we have as though the facility ID in order to see where this product was produced. So those are just the three identifiers uh, we specified. And here as well, we just defined first the requirements in order to have it unique from the first perspective. And um, for data carriers and for the unique identifiers, we provided eligible examples because we have already unique identifier schemes in the market. Yeah. When you are scanning a uh, product in your supermarket, then there is behind in league identifier.

Speaker D: Yes. So we're talking about um, things like a GS1 standard, uh, serial global trade identifier GTIN or something like that.

Speaker C: So this means I'm not allowed to tell you the details for sure. But of course existing systems in the market.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Are used uh, in this standard as examples which are eligible. But this is not just one. We are now six, seven. But they are just examples. Uh, we had taken the most important ones already and used ones. This is important from the perspective that as less as possible industry has to uh, change their existing system already. Because you can imagine if the retail industry should now change system to something else. This would be a nightmare.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So what we had uh, performed is to keep all the separate uh standards or parallel standards in a way that they are in total interoperable. Uh and that's the, this is our uh game. So we mean define the requirements. We provided at least trust by providing these um examples and by having this, this system in total is extendable because tomorrow there comes innovation into the market and as long they are um, at least complied to the requirements they can do good.

Speaker D: So that's great. And I understand that you can't get to specifics but um, you know the data carriers we're all familiar with like barcodes, QR codes, uh, NFC tags especially in Europe. But in the future you know the area where I've been focused is ambient IoT and uh, there's standards from the Bluetooth SIG From IEEE with WiFi tags and UH3GPP with these cellular battery free stickers that are coming uh very soon. So I think what you're saying is yes today you can use the established things that are uh, broadly accepted but the standard is not preventing the adoption of things like ambient IoT in the future.

Speaker C: Yes, this is at least we have to be extendable for sure.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And there exist maybe other UM systems already in the market and we should be inclusive as possible. So this was um, at least our narrative. This was not easy to establish for sure. Yeah this was quite a task uh to look into this narrative of inclusion who is owning the identification schemes. They are ruling the world that they are aiming for for sure. So they have to accept uh, at least parallel um solutions. And on the other hand um, on that side, on the technology side this is really important. On the data side you cannot live with parallel works. It's really hard.

Speaker D: That is very hard.

Speaker C: Um so this means some um data definitions and they're really small. We had to agree on, on one specification that's for sure. This means how about our uh taxonomy of the system itself so that everything is clear on that some headers and so on. You have to let me say agree on there's no way out. So this means those both um standards about data carrier and unique identifiers where at least one cornerstone, so the second cornerstone are uh, let me say services or specifications which has to be used for um common access and write and update of data. And um, here we had um developed a standard um where we defined all the API functions between the system components of the European um DPP system. Because you know we have the data part in decentralized at the economic operator. So but of course in order to have trust um, in order to provide um, the common data specification we have as well the centralized component where we have the registry for instance, where you can see the unique identifier for instance, where you have abilities of comparing different products. Um, where you have the um, uh semantic repository means um, where the data specification can be find for specific products. So you can choose a battery and then at least um, centralized European uh, repository will give you the data specification for machine readable data. Yeah. So um, and we have the backup service as well as a system component. And all three system components have to uh, work with each other and even have the outside interfaces to the consumer for instance or to the market surveillance. And how this is organized, this is organized by API. And for that we defined common API functions. And, and this was even a very hard job. Yeah. Ah, because um, um, uh, to um, to at least have consensus on that. It's quite challenging, you can imagine. So this means we started with really um, a um, selection of the most important ones. So we had at least identified um, nine different functions for that. Yeah. Uh, how to register for instance a port into the central registry, how to update data, uh, how to read data, uh, from certain perspectives, uh, and all these things. And um, this is um, the other cornerstone of our standards. Yeah. So that, and this should be as slim as possible. And we had big discussions how big this should be. The good news is um, after we um, made the specification in our laboratory, we made a sudden test. We at least sent the API specification into our AI tools.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And after 10 minutes we had the entire implementation uh, specification for machine readable data for Dutin, for implementing this into the system. So in total it's not a big burn to implement it.

Speaker D: And that's a really fascinating thing. So maybe DPP wouldn't even be viable. We talked about AI as the consumer of the data, but these are huge systems and if we maybe had the old model for development, maybe DPP's time has come that you literally can buy a copy of the standard, give it to your AI and tell it to implement this. And so the excuse of oh sorry, we've got to hire a thousand developers, uh, is no longer the barrier that it would have been two years ago.

Speaker C: It's even easier. Of course the first version came after 10 minutes. But then it took us um, one day to uh, let me say, make everything on a safe side. Yeah. So that's for sure. But anyhow those um, functions, there is no um, competitive advantage to have it or not. So this means um, this will be provided to the Economic operators by open source implementations. So there is no burden on that. Of course you have to uh, let me say adapt this to your systems and so on. There is something more to do but it is not this burden. Um, as we thought two, three years ago. Yes, that's our experience on that. So this is the second Cornish story with the API. Then you have two security standards. Um, I mentioned earlier. Okay, how about the methodology to perform assessment and how to adapt to levels of um, trust and so on. So how to do this? This is part of the standard but it's very, very slim. I'm not so happy. But we thought okay to have something um, and we will see even in the future. Um, and the other is the authentication. Yeah, this means okay, how to um, which, which kind of authentication, uh, schemes and methods uh we should use and how. This is um, that they say gives you the presumption of conformity at least. So these are the two um security standards. They are currently in formal vote. So they are not through the six others are um, already published. But the security standards are informal votes. This means our member states are currently assessing and say yes or no. So but we will see then at least we have some other interoperability standards. This is about the requirements uh for data exchange. This is just um, let me say the level of security or the security levels of um Internet um, protocols and so on which is required. No rocket science, just having a level and saying this is a standard. Do not go uh, below. Yeah, that's not a big deal. And even some uh, core data formats in order to assure a minimum level of interoperability. Yeah. And at least those are the standards, eight standards at least on that. So it's not so big. Um, but of course when you are looking, we had in total just one year time for elaboration of the standards. The rest of the time was voting, um, let me say, uh, um, dealing uh, with all the comments. Um, we had I think something like 7,000 something comments coming from the public inquiry and we had to vent through each comment, um, deal with this, um, discuss this um, and all these things.

Speaker D: Um, amazing how many people were involved in creating this standard.

Speaker C: In total we have 400. And of course you know, in those environments and communities, um, let me say 20% in maximum are very active. When we have 30 um percent let me say slightly active. And then you have 50% um listening and having some comments. Yeah. So at least I would guess 60 to 100 people they are very much involved. And um, when each discussions and be counted um, the effort. Maybe you can. You can make a best guess how many money, um, European industry spent voluntary into the standards best there.

Speaker D: I. I can't. Yeah, it's, uh, 100 million euros. I don't know.

Speaker C: Yeah. Not far away. We are. We counted. We were by 60 million.

Speaker D: 60 million. It's a lot.

Speaker C: It's a lot.

Speaker D: But, I mean, you know, my family, uh, you know, half a dozen people, we can't even agree where we're going to have dinner. So how did you. How did you. How did you get all of those people to agree on something that's so monumentally big? Uh, simpler than I thought. You did a great job of explaining it. But how did you get people to agree?

Speaker C: Yes, we made some reflection already, but we need this analysis, uh, together with our standardization organizations. This is in front of us. But I made some of the reflections, um, why we, um, were successful, to my extent, because normally those kind of standards need 10 years. So this is typical. So I think one part is because there were so much time pressure.

Speaker D: You had a deadline.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, so normally everyone was yelling, oh, we have no time. And European Commission is so bad, they are giving us timelines which can never achieved. And so. And, um, having time pressure is very good.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. So there's a deadline. There's no way out. We have to come to a consensus until this. And of course, there was a consequence when we are not achieved, that. That. That's very important. And the consequence was, okay, if we can do not, uh, elaborate the standards in the right way from the industry perspective, then European Commission will take their resources and define the standards by their own. And nobody liked this idea because m. You never know what's coming out. You can imagine coming from, let's say, retail and European Commission come with a standard where you are not compliant with. This is a nightmare. So this was always clear. If we are not, um, achieving this timeline, then there is a devil around the corner.

Speaker D: Yeah. Better the devil you know than you don't know. And that competitive pressure is fascinating. I'd never thought about that as, uh, a way of driving this, but it makes total sense.

Speaker C: Yeah. And of course, this working in a rush and achieving consensus is not so good for quality. So this means our standards, uh, from my perspective, have, let me say, questionable, um, quality. But it's useful. You think so? And that's for sure. And this I made as our statement in front of our standardization community. Of course, when we finish the standard, the revision starts.

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker C: And this is typical in any, um, technology development but in standardization is different. Yeah. Normally you're wait for five, 10 years, whatever, until revision it's different. And we see already mistakes. And in parallel to our standardization regulation didn't stop. So now we got a lot of new regulations which are affecting our standards. And of course there's a mismatch, uh, and we have to deal with that. Yeah, yeah, that's. So that is far from being perfect, that's for sure.

Speaker D: Yes, but you didn't let perfection get in the way of progress. And this is the way uh, agile teams perform, isn't it? They get an mvp, uh, minimum viable product out. And maybe you've got a minimum viable standard out. Uh, that's a really great uh, approach. Thomas, where can we buy a copy of these standards?

Speaker C: It's quite easy. You can just go to the national standardization organization. So I do not now take the German one. Let's go to Sven. This is sis Swedish Institute of Standardization. When you go to the Internet, um, portal and um, you just uh, search for the DPP standards, you find six, um, out of eight and you can just click on that, show your credit card and buy.

Speaker D: And what's the ballpark cost if someone wants to.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm not quite sure because um. I think something like €500, whatever.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's the order of magnitude. So it's affordable for anyone that's serious about this.

Speaker C: But of course I got the feedback from our European um, center and they already announced me. Hey Thomas. Those standards will be the best seller of European standards, that's for sure. Uh, no doubt you will see. So. But anyhow, um. To some extent, um. I'm quite happy to be part of this team. And to some extent, of course, I see we have a lot of things in Lauterburg in front of us. So this is not perfect. Um, we have to do a lot, um. We have a lot of criticism already for sure. But anyhow, um. There is no way out. I think creating this kind of um. Um. Digital product ecosystem, um, in Europe is worth to do anyhow. So in VC we need this international alignment. So even last year when we had the first um, interview, um, we had already, let me say planet to uh, um. Um. At least, uh, move up to international level means to ISO and ic. The good news is we will have a kickoff meeting for digital product passport system on ISO level in September this year.

Speaker D: Wonderful. That's great. Graduation.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it was really a hard job, uh, even here to start this and to. To uh. Let me say to lower the barriers, um, to Convince different countries in the world that uh, not now the Europeans come with their system and dictate everything. Yeah, so really big hesitation already. But anyhow, uh, now we made it US was first against. So they voted against this. But now um, they voted for the new chair positively. So it's, it's going on because we are sitting in one boat at least.

Speaker D: Well I think if people understand that to make progress with AI in the physical world you need these standards, then, then things will be start uh, to move faster. And what about your day job? If uh, if we um, want to uh, get access to some of the work that you've been doing at Fraunhofer ipk, what's the best way of engaging there?

Speaker C: Yes, it's quite interesting because um, on 24th of June we have the next webinar of our Battery Pass ready project where we launched the first test version. You can just upload, upload the download. Um, and sorry for that. Um, so this is the first one. This is about data, um, uh validation. But um. The next functions will come into the game even open source for the interaction tests between the different components and so on. So this is already um. Some of them are public as we are doing. This is Battery Pass already project together with very good partners with the German um Academy of uh, Technology, for instance um, with um, a company who's performing testing already of tax system with the Technical University of Berlin where we created the system. And um. Yes step by step um, we are putting this into the community. So we are supported by even more 100 supporting partners. So they tested the test system already. Excellent. And they provided um, feedback. And of course this test system today is not perfect but let's do in order because this testing is you know, so super important to uh, provide trust to the ones who have to implement. And that's fine. And this is open. Um, and of course as you know we are uh working in bilateral collaboration with companies. So we currently um, finishing the implementation of Battery pass for an um, European um automotive OEM including 40 plants. Um, so they are producing small cars, large cars, even motorcycles, lorries, sports cars, whatever.

Speaker D: Amazing. Well um, one of the. You can't argue with Germany's ability to produce great cars and it's uh, great to hear that there'll be a digital product passport uh, uh, connected to those cars.

Speaker C: Yes, and this is just EV cars. You know we are uh, as well uh engaged in um, a global um company coming from Asia producing at least I would not say everything but a lot of things in order to see where are the challenges, um, how to, let me say, um, elaborate, uh, new solutions. And we are quite proud to be active in different markets in order to develop our tools, technologies and um, um, to find at least, um, solutions which are um, useful for the others. So that's, that's as well. So, um, this is part of our job as well. Um, so that. And, and it's really inspiring. Um, and of course, you know, we have in. Especially in Europe, but mostly in Germany, a lot of big problems, um, in our economy and even the car industry, you know. And um, I think it's quite, quite, um, let me say inspiring that this kind of work can even here help to recover, um, to some extent. And this of course is a. Is a big challenge. Yeah, but we see, for instance. Yeah, in Europe we were very much creating complex, um, infrastructures, complex processes. And we are very proud to have very complex solutions of a complex problem. Um, and on the other, you see in other, um, Let me say, coming from other cultures, how systems can be much easier, much more simple. And this gives us the impression, um, that we can learn from each other. And that's very good for our, um, European and especially in German, um, um, economy at least, and our industry. So this means, this is, um, quite good to combine those and to see what we can do. You mentioned this issue of what does it mean if AI is selecting products based on the DPP and you made it to the top? Yeah. So this means, uh, products which not have a DPP will not be bought, will not be sold. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, anymore. And I, um, would say 60%. Around 60% of our, um, OEMs do not know this consequence yet.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think they'll learn fast because, you know, everyone, every board, every CEO is thinking, how do I need to be using AI to compete and to survive? And so I think this will very, you know, it's. It's a very simple concept really. Uh, of course I want to use AI in procurement. AI needs data. How do I present the data? Digital Product Passport. And then I think, you know, if a board of directors understands that then. And also when sales numbers start to reflect it, then I think we'll see a much faster adoption than people originally thought. Which is. Which is great.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: I gave you a choice of. You could either have. As a return. As an honored return guest. You have a choice of either three songs that have meaning to you or three movies that, uh, are of note. Which way did you go?

Speaker C: Yes. Last time you asked me about music.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And we Discussed a long time about my, um. Let me say, flavor. And, um. This was so inspiring me talking about Madonna, um, last time. But now I made my memory in the right way and thought, okay, what is really inspired me.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: This is a long time. And I think, um. When I thought first. And of course, you are looking to, um, movies, uh, which you had seen again and again.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Then it's quite easy. It's, um. It's Dirty Dancing. I think I would. I could see this tomorrow. And I will not be bored even it's maybe the 20th time.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, um. Yes. What was so amazed by. By Jennifer Grey at this point in time? I was very young when I was. I think this was when I was 16, 17, whatever. Yes. And I was really amazed. The second is as well, coming from this age. Maybe, you know, Amadeus.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: Very, very long one. I think it's 87. Whatever. Three hours. And I was really seduced by friends of me. Let's go to this, um. Um, to the cinema. And in the first one hour, I was quite, um, bored, uh, so long. And I have to still sit here for two hours more.

Speaker D: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: But anyhow, I was, um, so excited that I went back to this movie one day later. Oh, my goodness. And then in the second time, I understood even more, and I was really excited. And so this went really into my memory, at least. Um. Yeah.

Speaker D: Oh, you've sold that to me. I'm gonna go and watch it a second time because I've only watched it once. But I remember the performance. I mean, this was. It came out a long time ago. And, uh, I thought the performance was just so charismatic and. And, uh. Um. What did you. I mean, what was it that hooked you that, uh. I'm gonna seem like a nincompoop, But Mozart was German, right?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: Was that part of it?

Speaker C: Yes, of course. Uh, Amadeus. I had seen this in German. But Amadeus M is an Austrian anyhow. Lud Mozart.

Speaker D: Austrian.

Speaker C: Yeah, he was an Austrian. He came from Salzburg book. But anyhow, um, we see, um, Mozart as, um, a. As a European genie, at least. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. But anyhow, um, it was just so inspiring. And this was quite new for me how this topic was presented, uh, to the audience. And this was so interesting for me. And at least this, um, was a nice idea, at least, uh. Or let me say nice experience from this.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: And the third, I had really to, um, negotiate between two. And the first idea I had was quite problematic for me to know the English name even. It's a Hollywood Um, uh, movie.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, because in German it's uh, called in. In English, I think it should be different. Like a light in a dark night. This is this, um, Michael Douglas and Melanie Griffiths. This is. This was a, um, agent. Um, and, um, yeah. Um, um, movie in the second World War, but plain in Germany.

Speaker D: Um, interesting.

Speaker C: It was not very successful movie.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker C: I guess nobody in us knows this, but even Mike Godless. Yeah. And Melanie Griffiths. Um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: Great stars.

Speaker C: And uh. Yes, but I like this movie. But this was felt down by every criticism. Yeah. So, but the reason why I remember is I was part of the movie.

Speaker D: Oh, really?

Speaker C: I was playing there as a student. Um, I was in German Soldier. So it means, um, uh, it was quite, quite interesting. So I have seen Michael Douglas lies and Melanie Griffiths.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker C: And May, you know, at this point in time, Don Johnson was the husband of Melanie Griffiths. Oh, interesting. And he, Beverly and was sitting in a car. Um, so. And I had seen, um, Don Johnson light. So this was my hero.

Speaker D: Uh, yeah, Miami Vice. Yeah.

Speaker C: So this was just my memory. And um, May, you know, um, there is an actual actor, Dakota Johnson. This is the child from both meets Melody Griffith and Don Donson. And at least she must be born around this.

Speaker D: Interesting. So I've got to ask you, why did you volunteer to be an extra? Because I was an extra in a movie as well. Uh, and I did it because I wanted to make movies and I wanted to just get on set and see it.

Speaker C: And uh, and this point in time, I was just entering Berlin as a student. Did you know it was pure money? Yeah, because a friend of mine told me, hey, um, there is something you can go to casting. And then it's quite nice. You get 100, uh, Deutsche Mark for one day. Just uh, staying somewhere and um, doing a little. Yeah. So I thought, oh, good idea was at the weekend, uh, make money. Yeah.

Speaker D: So, uh, so if we, um, if we wanted to go back and watch that movie, which scene were you in? If someone wanted to find the, uh, the young chairman of. To be of JTC 24, uh, near, uh, Melanie Griffiths. Where. Where would they see you in the movie? Do you remember?

Speaker C: Yes, yes, of course. Because I was part of, Of a line of soldiers protecting the street where at this point in time, um, Adolf Hitler came with a car along the street. But our line was, um, filmed from behind. No face, nothing. But I was the one because I was tall at this point in time as well. And I was in the beginning of the road, all right. And um, I was bored at this point in time. And I was not looking straight across the street. I was just looking by side. So when the camera came along the line, well, they had seen my face as the last one even. It was not, um, foreseen or, um, whatever. So this means I would say you can see me in a half of a second.

Speaker D: Oh, uh, that's hilarious. And I can really relate to that because the movie I was in was, I think, even less well known than yours, which is called Zero Effect. And it had Ryan o' Neill in it. The star of Love Story. He was older, and it wasn't a successful movie, but it was shot in Portland, Oregon. And, um, there's a scene in Portland Airport where I'm just one of these people. They always have people walking backwards and forwards. So I'm walking along and I'm doing that, and I suddenly realize I might not even be in this shot. So I veered to the right, towards the curb, and ended up bumping into this poor lady that was passing her away because I wanted to get in the shot and they kept it. So I actually did make it into the movie, but probably for about half a second.

Speaker C: But anyhow, it was my only experience in Hollywood business because it was so boring. At least tested for at least one day. It was very cold. Um, um.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And at the end, the entire scene was less than one minute.

Speaker D: Amazing.

Speaker C: For one day, um, working. And so I thought, oh, that's. It's not much. So how about efficiency?

Speaker D: Exactly. I agree. I agree. And I think, uh, even the stars kind of find it pretty boring because they're only, you know, and they're on the screen a lot more than, uh, you or I were. But, uh, uh, that you have to have a high, uh, threshold for boredom. Well, Thomas, thank you so much for sharing that. That was super interesting. And, uh, thank you for coming back on the show. It's been, uh. It's been a real pleasure to have you, uh, on our podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you for this inspiring, um, talk at least. So whenever I'm, um, Let me say talking, uh, with, um. Let me say outside people at least, um, I'm always inspired too. And thank, uh, you so much for having this experience with you.

Speaker D: Uh, real pleasure. Well, that was the conversation with Thomas Notay. I, uh, really enjoyed it and. And, uh, it's great talking to someone with expertise, uh, humility, and, uh, really someone who's made a huge contribution to this field that we work in. So I hope you got as much out of that conversation as I did. It's a tradition that, uh, I share the music that uh, I've been listening to leading up to the show. And so, so this is uh, uh, the album of the episode Crosby, Stills and Nash's debut album, which is famous because it actually has Nash, Stills and Crosby in the wrong order on a sofa. They, uh, shot this photograph, loved it, loved the backdrop, which is near Laurel Canyon, uh, where they all lived at the time. Went back to reshoot the photos so they could be uh, in the same order as the title. But unfortunately in the day prior to their visit the uh, the building was demolished and so it was basically a completely barren piece of land. So. Barren land, but not barren music. This is just amazing. I got this secondhand for like uh, 15 bucks on discogs, and I highly recommend listening to it in any medium you choose. Thank you so much for uh, joining the podcast if this is your first time. We've got a ton of other content that's very relevant to what you've just listened to, uh, the initial interview with Thomas Cenote, uh, which was 14 months ago. So you can see what's changed there. But, um, leaders of companies that ah, are all uh, relevant to this world of auto identification and digital physical convergence that we live in. So thanks to Aaron Hammock, who's our editor and is busy working on this as I speak. And please enjoy the journey, stay safe and I'll see you next time.

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