Ep. 118- The LAST Marketing Ladder w/ Mason Cosby, Brianna Doe, and Alexis Scott

Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to the Last Marketing Ladder. This is your host, Mason Cosby. And I'm going to be really honest, I, uh, was just talking with Bri and Alexis. I'm getting a little bit emotional. This is the last time that we're going to do this intro. But I also have to say thank you, thank you, thank you. We have had over 200 people join us for this last session. So, again, so excited that you're here. Could not be more excited for this last episode. So with, uh, that we're going to actually go ahead and pass it over to our two guests. So, Alexis, will you go ahead and introduce yourself real quick?

Speaker B: Yes. Hi, everybody. First of all, so honored to be here for this momentous occasion to celebrate with Mason. And I could not think of a better third person to be here with me than Bri. Very, very excited. My name is Alexis Scott. I am the founder of a company called the Fairy Job Mom. I help job seekers leverage LinkedIn, them, market themselves, do resume updates, reviews, LinkedIn updates, reviews, and really help people navigate how to position themselves to land their next best career move and whatever that looks like for them.

Speaker C: I'm, uh, Brianna. I am the director of Man Generation for a company called Ion, which is a fintech startup, also a certified career coach. And if you follow me on LinkedIn or anywhere, really, I'm really passionate about helping people market themselves well as job seekers, but also make really intentional strategic decisions about the roles they take and the companies they work for. So that's me in a nutshell.

Speaker A: Love it. And I'm Mason Cosby. In my formal day job, I serve as a director of Demand Generation for a company called Sales assembly that is a learning and development platform for the Go to Market team. But, um, for the past two years, I have been the host of this show called the Marketing Ladder, where We've done about 120 interviews with marketing leaders to learn how they built their career. So the entire idea behind this show, if you've not listened to it, is I've interviewed leaders to understand how they build their career. Because when you ask a marketer, they typically say, oh, I kind of fell into it. And that's not really helpful if you're trying to learn, uh, how do I take that next step. So if you've not listened to the show, there's about 120 episodes that you can go back and binge with CMOs, VPs, directors on how they took the intentional steps or sometimes serendipitous steps to get to where they are today. And this show has just been a blast to do for the past two years. So again, could not be more excited to close this show out with some great, really support from an incredible audience. With that, uh, we've got a couple of questions prepared. The question that we did want to go ahead and start off with is how can a young professional stand out to land a role in the current market? Again, we've seen it's over 200,000 layoffs in the tech space. So for a lot of these young career professionals, they aren't experiencing the same market that we had a year or two years ago where there were a lot of jobs and the best talent was getting snatched up and there wasn't as much competition. But now we have top tier talents back on the market, very surprisingly. So again, what we want to do is start there. So I'd love to pass it over to Alexis to really, as you're thinking about people that you're working with and maybe some younger professionals, how are they able to stand out in this current economic environment?

Speaker B: Yeah, so a couple of ideas and let me preface this because one of these ideas came up on my last webinar and I thought it was brilliant. There was, it was a little controversial when I shared it on LinkedIn. So again, advice is, you know, tailor made for what you believe is right for you. Like please don't just take anything that we say and assume that that's the bible, you know, whatever works for you, works for you. So let me, let me start there. However, I think for early career professionals, a couple of things. Number one is if you have no experience, so let's say you're coming out of college and you really haven't worked in corporate marketing yet, a wonderful idea is to dip your toes into the idea of special projects, perhaps free of charge, because the idea is to build your portfolio to show that you can do the work. That's one thing. Now if you have had a role before, obviously metrics on your resume are going to be very important. Think impact, not just duties. Like was the impact and results of the work that you did for the company that you were at. That's so important. And the way in which you frame those and the language that you use is really important as well. So there are certain metrics that in general like a demand gen team is going to look at. Right. And so if you can speak to those metrics in your bullet points, you are then showing the hiring manager that you understand what will most likely be asked of you when it comes to Your duties and results that you are going to be responsible for. So speak their language. That's really important. Now this is the potentially controversial idea that I loved. Instead of a cover letter, there's all this controversy about COVID letters. Do them, don't do them. Whatever the potential idea of either doing like a very short slide deck or a short video. Succinct. I'm not talking a manifesto, but just answering the questions. And this is totally stolen from Jenny Anderson Frazier, but the four whys. So why marketing, why that company, why that role? And why you? And that's it. Give them a reason to talk to you, make them interested in you. Because ultimately you are now floating in a sea of amazing, talented applicants. So what can you do to stand out? I'm, um, gonna stop there because I know Bri's got great ideas too.

Speaker C: Well, I don't know if my idea can even compare to that. Personally, I love the idea of videos and leaning into the four whys. I get that it's controversial. It really depends on your industry, who you're even sending it to, all of that. But I think it's really great advice with this question. I thought mainly about how to stand out even before you get the interview. So just making your name stand out to them. And where I landed was just network, network, network. And that sounds cliche, we hear it every day. But LinkedIn is a gold mine for making really intentional, really valuable connections. Your hiring manager is only a comment away, like only a connection request away. So figure out the companies that you're interested in, um, the industries, whatever the case may be, the roles, the teams, and then start making connections. Comment on people's posts, send connection requests, build relationships. That will help you in the long term too. Not just landing this next job, but also building that network that you might not have before. And you'll be top of mind for a lot more people. You'll have people to link into and leverage, you know, throughout your career. So I would start there.

Speaker A: So I have some follow up questions for the both of you before I start to give some of my thoughts. But Alexis, I am curious from your perspective, like why was the idea of creating a slide deck or sending a video or doing some of those tactics even controversial in the first place.

Speaker B: So the feedback that I got was depending, uh, on the type of company. I primarily live in the startup world, SaaS, startups, innovative and also, I should say sales and marketing. The go to market function, where we are extroverts in general, we want to connect with people. It's all about making a name for yourself. That's normal, right? Like, that's very run of the mill and, and really the cream of the crop knows how to do that seamlessly. So when I heard the idea, I'm like, oh, my God, why have I never done this? This is absolutely brilliant. Now, when you are operating in an enterprise company where there are, uh, like eight levels of HR and the ats, you know, there is a potential that by doing something out of the ordinary, you are going to accidentally kick yourself into the no zone. There's bias, potentially the file type is not supported. I mean, there were some really reasonable reasons why that might not be a great thing. Now, additionally, I think it is also very dependent on the role. When I was in Seattle last week, Jess Ramos was there. She's in the data analytics world and she's like, I'm telling you right now, if someone in data did that, that would be weird. Like, that would be very, like, whoa, what, what is going on here right now? Not common at all. I think that depends on the hiring manager. Some hiring managers might be like, wow, this candidate's different. I want to talk to them. But others potentially could be put off by that, just depending on what their expectations are. So, again, advice, like anything, uh, you know, it could work for some and not for others. I think really be cognizant of your own situation and the type of company that you are applying to and if it makes sense to, to do that. But again, I love the idea. I thought it was brilliant.

Speaker A: Love it. Bri, you had mentioned this idea of identifying the companies that you would best want to even work for and then starting to do some great networking so that by the time you're actually ready to make a job search or make a jump to a new opportunity, you're not starting from ground zero, but you're starting from preexisting relationships. So I'm curious. I know you have done this, so how are you even identifying those companies and actually building out that criteria around, these are the kinds of organizations that I want to work in and work for.

Speaker C: I love that question. So, okay, logistically, I look at like, boutique job boards. I don't typically look at LinkedIn jobs or Indeed or anything like that. I like websites, like, well found, still hiring today, ones that you'll find more unique startups and companies and even roles that maybe people aren't actively applying for as much. But when it comes to figuring out the types of companies that I want to work for, when, when I first started out in marketing, obviously I didn't have a background with a bunch of different industries, so I didn't know that I liked sustainable tech or that I didn't like politics or anything like that. But I knew what I wanted to learn, I knew what kind of people I wanted to work with and I knew what my goals were for the next one to two to three years. And so I based my decisions around that. I found managers who would help me become a stronger demand generation marketer and a better content marketer and copywriter. I, uh, looked for smaller startups because I know I'd be able to wear more hats and dive into a lot of different, you know, facets of marketing and grow really quickly. I stayed away from enterprises or large organizations for the exact same reason. And I also thought about just what I was interested in. What do I like to do in my free time, what companies am I drawn to, what do I do as hobbies like? And that's how I actually got into sustainable tech. Um, I was really interested in going green and how that was impacting the US and the world as a whole. And so that's what drew me to actually work for a company called Footprint at one point and learn more about that industry. So even if you don't have a lot of experience in marketing, you know what you like, you know what you enjoy, and if you aren't sure yet what you want to do in your career, which is fine, just think about the next year and then focus on finding managers and teams that can help you move in that direction.

Speaker A: Yeah, I really love the idea of truly just kind of looking at your current day to day. And um, that's what I really love about marketing is the opportunity to really work in most any industry to where you can then actually help the companies that you love grow go further. So I think that that's really practical and super helpful for people personally as we think back on the question of how can a young candidate, a young professional, stand out in the current economic environment. Uh, I started my tenure in B2B in the midst of COVID So again, I had never really worked in B2B before moving into the fintech space. I was selling print advertising in a parenting magazine in Mississippi. So I had no real experience and was laid off because of COVID So I personally have been in this exact 3ish years ago. So very practically and tactically the things that I did is I recognized that I had a full time job of finding a new job opportunity. This wasn't something that was a uh, quick fix this was I need to figure out what going to do with my life. So from that perspective, recognizing this is going to take a lot of time, a lot of effort. The second thing that I did, if you go look at my LinkedIn, I have over 60 certifications. So again, I recognized I didn't know what I didn't know. And I'm not saying that certifications are going to be the best way to grow professionally. There's no replacing experience. But what the certifications offered me is the ability to understand the language and have a starting point to know, okay, this interests me. And how do I go learn more and more about this? Because again, when I entered into a marketing conversation and I could actually talk about the breadth of marketing and understand the conversation around SEO or paid or you know, social or organic, and understand, like, it's so weird that we use the term organic just so casually in passing because again, as a marketing community we understand the difference between paid and organic. But if you don't have that experience, what does organic even mean? So again, recognizing these certifications and gave me the opportunity in my own home without having to interact with anybody, I could learn the language. So the other thing that I did that also was somewhat controversial and I, uh, recognize, and this may have been to some extent because it was Covid, but like I would just show up places with a resume and I would just walk in and say, hey, I'm not sure if you're looking for somebody, but I'm willing to work. And again, just that initiative to show up, like, yes, you can call, like a lot of people have mixed feelings about that. But at the end of the day, like I wasn't just trying to get a job because I thought it'd be fun. Like I was trying to make a living, I was trying to grow a career. So again, taking any level of initiative and showing up in person when you can, that really helped me stand out. And especially I, uh, just landed my role at sales assembly probably four, five months ago. And one of the things I even did in that situation as I live in Indianapolis, and I said, hey, I'd love to drive up to the last interview to Chicago. So I went to Chicago and interviewed in person. Drove three hours, one way to interview for an hour and a half. The only thing that I did is I brought a bottle of whiskey and a thank you note. So those little touches ensure that you stand out as a candidate. Because again, I'm not just here to try to enjoy necessarily a, uh, short term career. I Want to build a career. I want to continually grow in anything that you can do those little touches that help you stand out and make sure that, you know, the language are critical. The last piece, that was a really tactical thing. In every interview that I had, somebody asked me, like, hey, what would a coworker say about you? So what I did is I actually got recommendations on my LinkedIn profile from M coworkers, from clients, from friends, from mentors. So anybody asked in an interview, hey, what would such and such kind of person say? I could then say verbatim, this is what a coworker would say about me. But if you want to see exactly what they would say about me, go check out the recommendation from Michael Guidry. That's a real person that's on my LinkedIn profile. That was four jobs back. And what I see every single time is I may not see their name, but I would see recruiter looked at your LinkedIn profile. Every time that I said that I was driving traffic in an interview to my profile, which had been optimized to help me land a job. So, like, that's a lot of really practical things for how you can stand out and ensure that once you're in the interview that you're doing everything that you can to keep that interview process going with little touches that show that you're not just trying to, you know, feel it out, but that you want to work here and that you really want to land this job. For me, there was a lot more heart than experience at that time. So, again, showing that I wanted this more than actually having the practical, tactical experience and that it was teachable, I think drove me to actually land the jobs that I have had in the past few years.

Speaker C: And it shows that you want to learn, too. Like, as a hiring manager, if I'm looking to fill a role that's entry level, early career, and they don't have experience, that's fine. I don't expect them to. I don't even really expect them to have certifications, but if they do, that's a huge green flag. It shows that you take initiative, so it shows that you're coachable and you're not just saying, I want to learn and I want to grow. But you're actually going out and you're doing it yourself already, which is a great sign.

Speaker B: You mentioned that you were driving Traffic to your LinkedIn profile, and I think that, you know, that's something that we should definitely address as marketers, but even just to anyone looking for a job. Right. That is Your goal with your LinkedIn profile. And a couple of months ago, Bri was on a webinar for the very job Mom. And we were talking, I think it was Leah Co who said that your LinkedIn is your cover letter. So a little spin on that. I always say it's your landing page. This needs to tell your story of what you bring to the table. Obviously, if you don't have a tremendous amount of work experience, how can you tell your story story, your why? Again, think of the four whys, why you, why this job, why all of this? Like, if you are LinkedIn can convey that to a recruiter or a hiring manager, you are already one step ahead of other people because so many people have not taken the time to optimize theirs. And I don't mean optimize with SEO, I mean optimize with again, that true story of this is what I'm looking to do. This is why I'm an asset to any company and this is why you should hire me. And a lot of that is creativity. It's copy. It's a little bit challenging, but it can definitely make a significant impact in you applying for jobs.

Speaker A: And just to piggyback off of that, like in my own experience, I was interviewing for my first six figure role and it was the first time that anybody had ever floated the number $100,000 in front of me. And this was insane. It was going to be a $40,000 pay bump. It was honestly a little intimidating. And I was interviewing the CMO that was looking at my experience and was saying, I don't understand how you have two years of experience. And you know what? You know, I'm honestly worried to give you this job because you've only been in marketing for like two, two and a half years. He had so much candor with me and it was incredible that he had this level of candor with me to say, I'm worried that you're going to get here and you're going to learn that you don't actually like marketing and then you're going to bounce and I'm going to invest so much time in onboarding you and training you that you don't even want to be here. And what I was able to do is express my why for marketing and why I love marketing so much. And through that I was able to overcome that objection of I don't think you actually love marketing. I just think this is what you've been doing for the past couple years because of COVID and to be able to express that why and to show a deeper level of not just commitment to marketing, but then actually tying that into the company mission and vision and values was what actually helped me land that job offer. Admittedly, I, uh, didn't end up taking it because of a variety of circumstances, but at the end of the day, if you can express your why and align that to the vision and the mission and the values of the company that you're working for and the specific role, again, what we're talking about is how do you stand out as someone that may have less experience and somebody that's truly committed over Maybe having all of the right tactical execution capabilities is going to be something that is going to hopefully help stand out. Now, there's actually, uh, a question. The question from Martin is would incorporating a comprehensive 306090 plan in my application significantly enhance my chances of standing out amongst other applicants?

Speaker C: Or.

Speaker A: Or would this be too much and we're going to have some different opinions on this. So, Alexis, you're shaking your head now. I want to see, I want to hear what you've got.

Speaker B: A couple of reasons, I think. Number one, in order for you to create a 30, 60, 90 plan, you need to ask questions. You need to better understand the business in order to tailor it to make it applicable. Number two, the job market is tough. You're applying to God knows how many positions. Most likely the amount of time that it would take you to do a 30, 60, 90 plan for every application is absurd. I mean, it just really is a time suck. And number three, more often than not, that's not going to get read. A recruiter is who is in general scanning your application. They know nothing of a 30, 60, 90 marketing plan. Yes, they could pass it on to the hiring manager, but that's only if you pass the screen. Just save that. Save that magic for the appropriate time in the process. It's like going on a first date and saying, will you marry me? You're not there yet.

Speaker C: Yeah, I would completely agree. Now, I think there's a lot of value in it. Later in the interview process. I've actually used it to land roles where, to be frank, I was probably going to get rejected because I didn't have experience in that specific industry and it's what got me the role I would not include in an application for the exact same reasons that Alexis shared. It's a lot of work. And also to add on to that, you're giving away potentially a lot of your intellectual property and they've done nothing to deserve that. They haven't paid for it. They haven't even really asked you for it because it's just your application. So I would not do this. I consider it a waste of your time this early in the process. That being said, if you make it into the interview process and they either raise concerns about your experience or even ask you for something like this, I would do it. But I hesitate with the word comprehensive. I would still be cognizant of how much information you're putting in there, and I would focus on showcasing what you plan to accomplish and achieve. Not so much all of the very specific details about how you would do it. It's a fine line and it's an interesting balance. But above, uh, all else, I say protect your intellectual property and your work and your time and give them what they're looking for without overdoing it.

Speaker A: I agree with everything with one minor caveat and exception. Again, I am, um, the guy that's been in this industry for four years. Like, I'm not typically going to get the job in the standard way. I recognize for myself that I have to go above and beyond. So for me, when I am interviewing and I recognize this is the company that I want to work for, hands down, no matter what, this is where I'm going to be. I go ridiculous. I make sure that they know that I want to work there. So I didn't necessarily attach an application or a, uh, 3069 to my application. I think in a standard way, that would not be helpful. But if you can send that video directly to a hiring manager and walk through a 30, 60, 90 and high level, I wouldn't attach it as a part of your application. But just say, hey, I submitted an application. I've been doing some research and I wanted to share with you just some high level thoughts on some things that I think we could accomplish together if I were to take on this role. So again, I don't recommend that as a standard practice. But if you're like, dream job opportunity. I was talking with somebody that said, like, my dream job was to work at Gong. And they did not have the level of experience, but they said Gong is my end all, be all. They went super far above and beyond before they even got the first interview to ensure that they were noticed. So that's the caveat I would say later in the interview process. I would highly recommend a 30, 60, 90 for a couple of reasons. First, for me, whenever I submit a 30, 60, 90 and ensure strategic alignment before I take the job. Because if I lay out this is what I plan to do in the first 90 days. I'm like, man, you're, um, stupid. Like, this is absolutely not what we should be doing then it's like, awesome. I've actually now communicated to you this is how I would approach this. You don't agree? I'm glad we know that on the front end before I actually take the job and I leave my current job. So again, it's actually a qualification process for both sides to ensure alignment on what the role would entail. The other thing is if you do it later in the interview process, I come from a consulting background, so treat my interviews as discovery calls. So I can actually suss out, like, what's wrong with their marketing program as it stands today. So when I get to that final interview with a 30, 60, 90, I can lay out based on informed assumptions versus, like in the. If I submit it with an application, I have no context outside of the job description. And a lot of times those job descriptions are written by people that are not even necessarily the direct hiring manager. So again, recognizing that the job description may not be 100% accurate and using those interview steps to get further information to then submit a 3069 at the end as a qualification on both sides is my standardized approach.

Speaker B: I think though the challenge, challenge, I don't want to use the word bias because it's not biased, but judgment that could come across is if we are talking about early career professionals. If I'm someone who has been in marketing and I'm a marketing leader, and you're then telling me, here's all the problems in your program and here's what I would do to change them. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I'm saying that you could be rubbing that hiring manager the wrong way in the sense of you've been doing this for how long? Like, remind me why you're qualified to inform me on strategic initiatives in my program. So just a caveat to think about is the way that that's communicated is really important and smoothly because that could actually hurt you in my opinion.

Speaker A: That's a really good point. And I think in the specific framing, it's not, hey, let me call your baby ugly. But I view every job posting as a hiring manager just saying, like, hey, I need help. So it's recognizing, okay, somebody's admitted that they need support in this specific area. Let me say these are some thoughts that I have based on the conversations that I've been having, based on what I've been hearing Based on what I know. And again, it's not coming at it from this. Let me be authoritative and dictate how we should move forward. But it's, hey, if we were a team, these are some ideas that I've got on how we could work together. So, again, that's a really, really good caveat to add in, um, my bad for framing it not appropriately of saying, like, hey, let me come in and, like, say all the things you're doing, like that nobody likes that. But recognizing, again, this is how we can work together and I'd love to work with you. Here are some ways that I think may actually help both of us.

Speaker C: I think I fall somewhere between the two of you. I hear what Mason's saying. I hear what Alexis is saying. My concern is, even if you try to approach it the way you advise people to, Mason, I'm worried that because I think you would do a very good job communicating the fact that you're not coming in and trying to make a bunch of changes. You're not calling their baby ugly, which I'm gonna steal that. But I'm curious how many people would also do that? Well, I think that's a very fine line to walk. And when you're early in your career, be it right, wrong and different. Yes, People want creative ideas. They want fresh perspectives. They also want somebody who's coachable, who doesn't have a lot of ego, who isn't going to bring a lot of pride into it. I'm hesitant when I think about how many people early in their career would do that well and showcase that well, while also saying, here's some ways that I think we could work together. And here's changes that I think I could make. Because if I'm a hiring manager and I post a job description, it is because I need support, and I know the areas that I need support in. However, we're talking about ION specifically. I also know exactly what I need, and I'm open to those fresh perspectives once I hire somebody or even while I'm in the interview process. But if it's somebody I haven't even met yet and I haven't built any sort of rapport, they're not a referral. I don't know this person from John. It might actually rub me the wrong way depending on how they communicate it. So another caveat would be to have somebody else maybe read the email or watch the video before you send it and see how you're coming across to an objective third party. Don't just assume that you're doing a good job communicating it. Make sure that you actually sound coachable and uh, not prideful.

Speaker B: What I wanted to piggyback on was also, Mason, you mentioned the word discovery, which is a sales term and which I think that it's important to acknowledge that any hiring process is essentially a sales process. You are selling yourself to a company with discovery. The most important part of discovery is asking really great questions. You're trying to learn is this a fit? And I hope that anyone listening to this who is early career understands that while yes, we all need income and we need to live, it is so important to do your due diligence about the company that you're about to join. It could make or break your happiness and mental health for however long you are there. And so really knowing yourself and what is important to you in a leader, in a company, in values, in the work that you're actually doing is of utmost, uh, importance. Truly to understand that and have that self awareness and to figure out what questions you need to ask and how to ask them to get the information that you need is so important. And I know Bri posts about this a lot with really, really fantastic ideas on how to ask, you know, situational questions, behavioral questions to get that information. So just remember, yes, you are selling yourself and yes, they are selling to you and also let them show you who they are. This is their best behavior. So if your process is a nightmare, this is the best it's going to get. My friend.

Speaker A: Remember that I love last point. This is their best behavior. I've never thought of it that way, but I mean, it's so true again on both sides, especially when you're engaging top talent. It's a sales process for everybody. So again, recognizing if this is a complete mess right now, I can't imagine what it's like when we're married. With that, we're gonna go ahead and move on to some some additional questions. Michael throughout that he hears this feedback constantly. And I'm gonna summarize real quick, but essentially, hey, the interview process went well, but you're missing this specific direct experience. We wanted to make you aware you were perfect. It's no fault of you. We're just looking for this specific industry experience. We love talking with you, we hope to stay in contact, but we're not going to move forward with you. So if you're getting that kind of feedback, uh, Alexis and Bri, I'd love to hear from your perspective. How can somebody take that feedback and overcome that objection in marketing, one Thing

Speaker C: I like to do is I look at customer complaints, not just for our specific product, but for our competitors. And then I proactively speak to those on the website in ads and, uh, landing page copy, whatever the case may be. I proactively raise their concerns and solve them before they can even raise them themselves. So it really puts the potential customer, the prospect, at ease. I take the same approach with job seeking. If you've gotten this feedback before, that's your customer's pain point. Your customer, in this case, are the hiring managers. So during the interview process, how can you proactively, with a specific example, bring up the fact that I might not have direct manufacturing experience, but this is how I learn quickly. I actually thrive in environments where I'm empowered to learn a new system, learn a new product, learn a new industry. This is how I've done it in the past, and this is exactly how I would do it in this role. One thing that I also bring to the table is a fresh perspective to an industry that a lot of people have worked in for a very long time. These are my ideas, and this is how I would incorporate them while learning very quickly, ramping up, so on and so forth. So take the time before the interviews to think through how you would do that, how you would actually learn what your skill gaps are, how you plan to bridge those gaps, and don't let them have those concerns. Bring them up yourself and don't focus on the fact that you don't know something. Focus on how you're going to fix that.

Speaker B: I love that advice. I think that's incredible. And, you know, the only thing that I would really add is actually two things. So the first is if someone is telling you that the only reason they're not hiring you is because, you know you're missing one particular skill or whatever, you just don't have that skill. So please don't beat yourself up and say, oh, I could have done better. No, you couldn't have done better because you didn't know that's why they're not hiring you. And now you know. So consider it. Chalk it up a learning experience. You truly did the best that you could. Now, now you have information. So the question becomes, what do you do with that information? And you really have two choices. The first is, like Bri said, get ahead of the objection. Talk about how you plan to, you know, fix it or whatever it is, you know, your quick learner, all those things. Again, concrete examples, super important transferable skills. Also super important. If you have done something similar but different talk about how it relates and how you can apply that to this new role. The other choice that you have is bridge that gap. Is there a way that you can somehow bridge the gap? And now when you start having these interviews, guess what? The objection's gone.

Speaker A: Specifically with this objection. I've also received this objection in the past. The challenge that I run up against is, again, if it comes back to, this was an opportunity that you might have been excited about, but it wasn't perfect. Again, everything that Bri and Alexis said of like, try to bridge that gap, or again, recognize, okay, this specific industry, they just may have a very legacy mindset. If I've continually gotten this objection in this same industry, this is maybe an objection that's just going to be a standard fare. I've worked in marketing organizations in which they said marketing's job is to write sequences and go to trade shows. And that's a legacy mindset from my perspective on how to do marketing. And I'm recognizing that's a consistency in that industry might mean I need to go to a different industry. So recognizing, okay, is this just something that's going to continually come up and I can't fix it? If that's what's happening, it may mean you need to look at a different industry. I, uh, know that's hard, but that might be the reality. And again, to what Alexis said, if you can bridge that gap and you can get experience and it may not be sexy, it might be an unpaid opportunity of just get it on your resume so it can no longer be an objection. So there's those things. And I'm going to speak on the other side of my mouth at the same time. So, sorry, I just also hear that objection, and I'm like, they're looking for something. Somebody put it in the chat already of, like, you're lucky to get any feedback. And it may have been that they really liked you and they wanted to let you down easy in some way, but there was something else. And I know that's hard to hear. And again, Brie, Alexis, you guys may have a different perspective, but I just also, depending on the industry, like, industry experience is super helpful. It's very valuable. But I also know anytime that I've gotten that feedback, I actually went back to somebody that I had been really, really cordial with in the interview process to get specific feedback, and they actually said, actually you had this skill gap or you'd have this level of experience, or it was something in addition or maybe even completely separate. So that's been my experience. Again, I know that there's a variety of opinions.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you can only take things at face value, even if there is deeper meaning or whatever. Assume good intent, positive intent, and just it is what it is and you work with what you have. What I will also say, and this is a personality decision for me, I don't want to work at a company that's not super excited to work with me. I am a catch. I bring a lot of incredible skills to the table. I bring culture and I bring energy and I bring ideas. And no, I am not an ideal candidate. And I say that about myself. Honestly, even though I am further in my career, I am in general not going to fit any job description 100%, because I've done many different things. So there is a gap. There's always going to be a gap. So for me, the challenge is really selling myself as a holistic candidate and what I do bring to the table. So someone coming to me and saying, oh, you don't have this experience, uh, that's a very likely thing that could happen. Now, if they are telling me that I am not a fit, I'm not going to argue with them. I'm not going to try to sell myself. I'm not going to ask for more information like, okay, we're not a fit, and I'm going to keep going and I'm going to keep applying and I'm going to find that fit because I know it's cliche. I do believe that rejection is redirection and that that right fit is out there. And so the best thing that a job seeker can do is take the good, leave the rest, learn as you go and just keep going. Because there is going to be an organization out there who's going to meet with you and say, yes, this is our.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think too, you can spin your wheels forever trying to figure out if they didn't hire you because is it because the industry experience something else? I mean, at the end of the day, they didn't hire you. And that's. That sucks. Like, you wanted the job, you needed the job, whatever the case may be. But regardless, it could be as simple as if them telling this person, you didn't have the industry experience, he could have been an A plus candidate and the other one could have been an A plus candidate. And the only difference was that they would have to spend less time ramping them up because they have the industry experience. And Alexis, like you said earlier, sometimes you just have to bridge that skill gap, figure it out and move on. But I wouldn't. I mean, in a similar vein to what Alexis said, I want to work for a company that's excited to work for me. At the same time, let's be honest, like, we need jobs and I need money to pay my bills and feed my dogs. So the main thing is I try to improve 1% after every interview. What did I learn from this feedback? How can I apply it to the next one and just keep going? I don't think it matters so much why they didn't hire you if that's the feedback that they give you. If you're really curious, you can ask them for more, but you're going to be spitting your wheels after a while. It really depends on the hiring manager. It depends on the company, it depends on how they choose to do business and who they want to hire.

Speaker B: Something to consider is if you're hearing the same feedback repeatedly, it's probably not bullshit, it's probably accurate. So you know, the sum of all parts. And if it is an actual skill that you are missing, then like Mason said, you might need that if you want to be in that particular industry. So, you know, we can. You can look at this a million different ways, but I think take people at face value, take what they're saying, and then just, you know, move forward with the knowledge that you have in the best way that you can.

Speaker A: I heard this quote over the weekend, and I think it's a great way of summarizing what we've been talking about, which is everyone is a genius, but if you judged a fish by its ability to climb a tree, you'd think it was an idiot. So, again, if you keep getting the same objection over and over and over again from the same industry, it might just be that you're not in the right industry. And that's okay. Take that advice, move to a different industry, or recognize I have a clear gap. Let me go figure out how to fill it. We've got another question queued up right here from Sarah, which is, can you give some advice on interview prep? What questions should one be able to answer? If crafting notes in advance, what would you include on things like, tell me about yourself, why this role? What do you know about the company? Background alignment, recent experience, you know, things you agree or disagree with or just essentially the final question in that, uh, list was like, also, what am I missing? Like, what question should I be preparing for my interview prep? So we'll take the first half, which is some of these standardized questions that you're getting a lot in the interview, how are you guys recommending that you prepare for those standardized questions?

Speaker C: So to start, one thing you can do is go to Glassdoor. It's a good site to find standard questions for the job that you're looking for. And even based on the company's specific interview process, depending on how well known the company is, how much they've been interviewing and hiring people actually go to Glassdoor and add in what they've been asked during interviews. Let's say you're looking for a marketing manager role. You can literally just Google marketing manager standard questions. I would pair that with what you're starting to see over and over again during interviews. Write down the questions that you're getting a lot so that you can learn to prepare for those more.

Speaker B: When I think about interviewing, yes, there are the standard questions, but I think something that everyone needs to be prepared for is to answer the question of how did you get there? So we all have a resume. There are bullet points. If it's a good resume, you have quantifiable data on it. What happens when they say, oh, I see that you raised this by x percent. Tell me about how you did that. You better have an answer, because if you don't, all of a sudden your application is garbage. They think you're lying. You have to be able to speak to your skill set and think of examples, Think of real life examples of things that you have done in your roles that you can talk about. And you know, storytelling is, as a marketer is one of your best skills that you could have. That, that's essentially marketing. So the ability to convey that information in a recognizable, relatable way that makes sense is your best friend. Best thing you can do in that interview and what one of my clients actually shared with me is when we revamped his resume and we highlighted certain data points. What he loved about that was that helped him guide the interview, that helped him become a champion. Because when they were looking at his impact statements was like, oh, tell me more about this. He's like, oh, I would love to tell you about this. Let me tell you how I blew this up and made it amazing. So you're then crafting that conversation to really highlight yourself as a star candidate as opposed to just falling into those kind of run of the mill, tell me about yourself boring questions that really don't allow you to truly shine like the work that you've done.

Speaker C: I, uh, will also add on top of that, completely agree and when you're sharing these answers, make sure they are structured and formatted in a way that's easy to understand and digest because you could have an amazing answer or an amazing example to share. And if the interviewer cannot follow what you're saying, you've lost them anyway. So if you're not sure how to structure it, if you struggle with that during face to face interviews, I recommend the Star method. And then you can make it your own. The Star method is, uh, situation, task, action and results. So you take one sentence, lay out where you worked, what you were doing, task what they told you to do or what they asked you to do, the results they asked you to drive, action, what you did to accomplish the result that you're going to get to, and then results. So this is what I did and this is the impact or the growth that I drove. Keep it concise, keep it well formatted and structured and let the interviewer actually process what you're saying to piggyback off

Speaker A: of what Alexis said around specifically formatting your resume in such a way that you drive the interview. Before I really did marketing freelancing, there was a period of my life where I actually did resume writing and I didn't follow any standardized templates, but I was a story brand certified guide. So I don't know if you're familiar with storybrand, but essentially it's a messaging framework that is typically used for brands of how do I not make myself the hero of this journey, but how do I become the guide that helps my character, my hero, overcome the challenges? So I framed everything through the lens of my resume is the story and I'm the guy that's going to help my hiring manager overcome this problem. So again, it's very problem solution oriented language and actually helping to recognize essentially if you hired me, these would be the successes that we could experience together. And there is a failure piece to storybrand. I don't recommend using that of like, if you don't hire me, this is like everything will be devastating. Like that's not necessarily the best approach. But again, actually recognizing and having some level of empathy for the hiring manager to recognize if they're hiring again, they have a problem that they're trying to solve. And I always love this example of you. You had this session on your calendar today. So you woke up today with this on your calendar and you've worked your whole day and now you're like tuning into this. I could almost guarantee that not a single person ever thought throughout the entire day, like, I wonder what Mason's experiencing today, wonder what Alexis is thinking about or like, I wonder what Bri is on her mind. Because we wake up every single morning viewing life through our own eyes. So if you can, instead of talking about how incredible you are and how amazing you are, actually frame it up as problem solution oriented language, entire resume back into the problems that were outlined in the job description and then actually make the bullet points that are qualitative and quantitative data point back to. These are things that were outlined in the job description. You were framing yourself as the guy that's going to help your hiring manager conquer the day and make them look good. So again, when you do that, you drive the conversation back to your points. And again, it's now tied into the job description. So as a result, you're talking about what you've done in the past that directly correlates back to what you're doing right now or what you could be doing in that new job. So that was a circuitous answer. But like, that's, I think, a different way of writing a resume that ensures that you're actually speaking to directly what the hiring manager is caring about.

Speaker C: I agree with all of that, except for the fact that people aren't waking up thinking about what I'm doing and what I'm thinking. I'm actually a little offended. I thought everybody did that. But other than that, spot. Um, on.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, based on really tying the job description to your resume, you know, there are 85 different ways that you can say the same thing. Right. I was working with one client and he, I was saying like, well, have you ever done this? And he's like, yes. And I'm like, okay, well, that's exactly what they're saying in the job description. They're just using more complicated words. But you've done this. So it's really important to pay attention to language. And I always say recruiters play the match game. They want to read your resume and say, oh, okay, they've done this. Oh, okay, they've done that. But what they're matching it with is with the job description. I can't remember which one of you earlier said, like, more often than, uh, not. A job description is not written by the hiring manager, it's written by hr. So that's what they're going off of. And so using that language, matching exactly the way in which they're discussing each task or duty or whatever it is that you need to do, the closer that you can get to show that you are understanding them and what they're looking for and that you have the experience directly related to that, the easier it's going to be for them to say, I need to talk to this person.

Speaker A: I love it. And Sarah, to come back to your original question, I think we've touched all around it and essentially Alexis and I took the idea of don't even have those questions asked. But in the event that those are still asked, my recommendation and what I've always done is listed out those standardized questions of tell me about yourself. And I just have a boilerplate response. And the other thing that I love about the story brand messaging framework is essentially I would create a one liner that was me as a person and then I would repeat that every single interview when somebody would ask me specific questions so that in every conversation they had a summary of who I was as a candidate. So that when they all came together to talk about who should we hire, they all at least heard the summary of me. And again, that summary ties back to that job description. It's an exercise in marketing of repeating the same message over and over and over again to your ideal buyers to ensure that when they come together to talk about it, they know who you are and the value that you would bring as an individual.

Speaker B: This just popped into my head about the, you know, tell me about yourself in. In consideration to a. What the role is. You know, of course you want to be speaking to your career path and how you got there, but I think that it's also an opportunity for you to share a little bit about yourself as a person and your personal interests and whatever and why that then draws you to this company and to this role. Like Bri was saying I was so, you know, I was. Or that she was interested in like green and sustainability and all of that. Therefore, I am extra excited to be sitting here talking to you today because that is a passion of mine and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker C: One final thing too. You can also look at the specific job description for the company, see what pain points they're trying to solve, and I guarantee that you're going to get some questions that say, tell me about a time when. And they're looking for ways that you've already accomplished this. So just familiarize yourself with the specific job description, with what the company is looking to do, the pain points they're trying to solve, and make sure you have a really solid grasp on how your background and skill set already fill that in.

Speaker A: And one final thought on that, of getting really, really nerdy and tactical. Like if you're on LinkedIn. You can see the ads that a company is running. You can Google a company name to see if there's any Google Ads that pop up in their branded terms. Or you can search the, the keywords to see are they ranking in search, are, are they paying? Like there are things that you can do as a marketer to figure out like what is their strategy currently. So again, that's, I know, very basic and no, Nathaniel, I just, uh, three years ago was indoctrinated by storybrand. So that's why I mentioned storybrand a lot. It's kind of the foundation for my whole marketing career. So with that one final question and then we're gonna, we're gonna wrap up. So the question was key skills that you need to grow from a manager to a director. I would love Bri and Alexis's thoughts. And then I'll, I'll wrap us up.

Speaker C: What immediately comes to mind is you need to have grasped and shown that you've grasped the ability to move from execution to strategy. Depending on the company, you'll have to straddle that line still. But with the director role, the company is looking for somebody who can come in and say, this is everything we're doing, this is what's working, what's not working. Here's what we should do in our day to day, but also here's the long term strategy framework and plan for the company to take us to whatever those goals may be. And it's easier said than done. As, uh, somebody who was strictly in execution for a while, it's hard to focus on the day to day and also zoom out, um, and look at the company from an aerial view and look at their goals. But that's a really important part of it. And one way you can start doing that now is to work with your manager and see where there are opportunities for you to step into more meetings, um, have more strategic conversations with them about company goals and start positioning yourself as somebody who wants to be a strategist.

Speaker A: Alexa is going to pass it to you for any thoughts?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's excellent advice. I mean the other component to that is the people part and that's the part that I'm actually more familiar with than even moving from an executor to a strategist. I have in my career, like oddly always kind of been put into the strategist role and my gap is actually on the actual execution. I'm like, I've got great ideas, but I'm like, ah, uh, how do I do it? And that's where managing really talented and smart people comes in. And so understanding the type of manager that you want to be or director, like when I say manager, I mean like people manager. Your leadership style. How are you going to coach and mentor? How are you going to provide opportunities for your team to grow and learn and execute? When you are in a director position, it's interesting because you're managing up and you're managing down. You're always reporting to whoever's ahead of you. And then you also are managing the people and ensuring that your team is performing to the standards at which you are being held. And so learning how to do that can be challenging. There's a really awesome book that I would recommend called 360 Degree Leadership. Highly, highly, highly recommend it. But figuring out who you want to be as a leader is really important in that step because yes, you have actual work you have to do, but you also have a team.

Speaker C: I also recommend finding a mentor or a career coach. You can use something like ADP list, um, and just work with somebody. There is a lot to learn about people management, about strategy and execution that you can figure out on your own. Sure. But it's going to take longer and there are people that will help you with it. Um, whether it's what Alexa said, managing up, whether it's learning to report out or shadow that line between execution and strategy, whatever the case may be, I strongly recommend finding a mentor.

Speaker A: Final thought and then we will get into our wrap up. But uh, I was looking for the book. My former CEO wrote a book called Roe Powers roi and it's the idea that there are three different kinds of individuals within an organization. Obviously it's a vast generalization but you've got the why people, the how people and the what people. And there's like a way one that's the the why. So those are the visionary leaders. Typically in an organization you should have somebody that's you should only have one why type person that constantly sits in that seat. Now when we talk about a cmo, for example, they're sometimes a why they're the visionary for their department, but they're not necessarily the visionary for the company. As an example, you have then your way to that are your how people that are typically going to be your strategists. And then you have your way three people that are the what now that we've I understood the vision and now that our strategist has laid out the strategy, now what are we going to do to realize that strategy that then furthers the vision. So I think that the greatest gap for a lot of people is that communication capability to then move from the what are we doing? To how are we going to do it. So transitioning from execution to strategy, as somebody that has been a lot of a solo marketer, I have to cast my own vision, make my own strategy and execute it. So from that perspective, depending on who I'm even having a conversation with, I've had to be all three. So there have been times in which I've fallen short because I've entered into a vision, strategy, talking tactics, because I didn't come up with the right mindset. So I think especially where you're going to find the greatest success and actually moving up is a vast realization. Not always, but it's going to be a lot in the conversations. Moving into a director level role standardly is moving more into a strategy role. And it's difficult to show that you're more strategic unless it's typically in a conversation. So again, look at the calls that you're joining in on and take five minutes. I know that we all run back to back to back calendars, but take five minutes before that meeting and get into a strategic mindset and instead of jumping to what you're going to do, ask more of the questions around why and how showcasing that before we go invest all this time and building something, is it the right thing that we should be doing? Does this further the vision? Does this further the strategy of what we've said and all agreed and aligned on. This is what we're going to do. So again, actually recognizing how you communicate and who you're communicating to. And again, especially that middle management role, as Alexis had talked about, you're managing both up and down, which means typically you're managing both to vision and you're managing to tactics. So recognizing how to have those, uh, different conversations and communicate differently. A CEO typically shouldn't care about the exact wording of a social post. Sometimes they do, but generally speaking they're more like, are we headed in the right direction? Good. So recognizing those delineations. So that's my final thought. With that, we've got about three minutes left. This has been the last recording of the marketing ladder. I was talking with Brian Alexis at the very beginning, right before we went live, and I wasn't sure if I was going to cry. I might cry right after this. Like, I've loved this show. It's been, it's a year investment and we've helped a lot of people. So what I want you to know is the show is not coming down. There just won't be new content. So if you're looking to grow your career, there's a lot of content. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of content that exists on this show that you can go back and listen to. And again, there's a variety of leaders that have been on the show all the way from managers to founders and serial entrepreneurs. So, like, there's just a whole gauntlet of people that you could listen to. The other reason I asked both Alexis and Bri onto the show for the last one is they post daily content on marketing careers on LinkedIn. So again, if you're looking for someone that can help you day in and day out, Alexis and Bri, the people that I follow, the people that I trust. So I want you to, to go follow them. And lastly, I've been teasing this for a little bit. There is something new, there is something next. If you've been following me on LinkedIn for any length of time, you've likely heard me refer to this concept that is Scrappy abm. This is my first true public announcement. Crappy ABM is a freelance consulting business that has a variety of incredible experts that are all really specifically niched. So I talk a ton about Scrappy abm. So if you have no tech stack, but you need an ABM strategy, that's what I'm here to help. We've got a great content and demand expert on the team. I don't know if she wants to call it out, but we've got a great content in demand. We've got an enterprise ABM individual, we've got an operations expert, and we have a partnerships expert. So again, if you're looking for consulting, that's what we're offering. There's also now a new podcast. So if you go look up Scrappy ABM anywhere that you find a podcast, you've got 15 episodes. You can go ahead and start binging today to help you as you're looking at growing your Scrappy ABM strategy. And last, and I think what's going to be my most favorite, we're launching Playbooks. So if you can go to scrappyabm.com there's my LinkedIn growth process of how I've grown from 100 to 16,000 followers over the course of two years and source over a million dollars in revenue through LinkedIn. So that is a free, publicly accessible playbook. I hope that again, you've enjoyed the marketing ladder and I hope that you'll follow me on the journey of building a Scrappy ABM program. I'm more excited about this because, yes, you need to understand how to grow your career from the navigating of how do we do these interviews. But at the core, the best marketers grow their careers by doing the job really, really well. And that's what I hope to help you accomplish through Scrappy abm. So again, if you're not following me, go follow me. That's what I'm going to be talking a whole lot about. Go find the podcast and if you want the podcast delivered to your inbox every single week, you can go again to scrappyabm.com and actually find a little link where you can get the podcast delivered to your inbox every single week before we close out. Alexis Bri, any closing thoughts from you guys?

Speaker B: I'm just grateful to have been a part of this and so excited to see where you go and the collaboration that, uh, will exist with Scrappy avm. This is awesome. Congratulations.

Speaker C: Yeah, I just want to say thank you for having me on. I've loved the marketing ladder. I know I've learned a lot from listening and following along and I'm so excited for Scrappy ABM and to follow this new journey. So thank you.

Speaker A: Well, thank you both. M this has been the marketing ladder for the last time and we hope you all enjoyed. Thanks.