The Marketer's Edge Interview with Dan Karp, AVP & CMO at Baldwin Wallace University

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So, welcome to another Marketer's Edge interview. My name is Mark Snyder and I'm founder and CEO of RSW Agency Search. We're a no cost way for marketers to find best in class agencies of any type or any size. You can find out more about us@rswas.com um, today we're talking with Dan Karp, the AVP and CMO at Baldwin Wallace University, based out of Berea, Ohio, my home state. Dan, thanks for joining us today. How have you been?

Speaker A: I, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Mark. This will be great.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. Was looking forward to it. I've got a small handful of questions for you, but before we do that, can you tell me a little bit about Baldwin Wallace University and what you do for the university. I'd uh, like our audience to know, you know, what kind of organization it is and the kind of things you do for them.

Speaker A: Absolutely, sure. Baldwin Wallace, as uh, some people I think know, is about 20 minutes from, ah, downtown Cleveland, near the west side of Berea. Um, uh, we just have over 3,000 students. They um, study both bachelor's and master's degrees and probably about a little over 65 different degree programs. So next year, next fall we'll be celebrating our 180th year. So um, fill the most part. What I think in short is, you know, BW is one of those private school gems and we draw students. Um, I always have this saying, they have like big goals and the type of student that ends up choosing BW is really the student that in high school was very involved. Like they belong to the band and the key club and the pep club and they did, you know, they did all kinds of things. They just love being a part of it. And now it's an opportunity for them to extend that into college and become leaders and there's an opportunity for them to lead here. So we have kind of, uh, we don't really say it very often, the admission process, but if you're the kind of student that wants to sit in a lab all by yourself and study something all day, you're probably not going to be happy at BW because everybody's in the show, as they say at bw. Um, and one of the things we like to say here is that your degree is really only half your story and the rest of the story is everything you do outside the classroom.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I guess what I do is I, I guess I'm fortunate. You know, I've had a, ah, really great career and I do, I Love what I do here. I lead a team of about eight and I manage the brand of the university, which includes all of the recruitment, communications efforts, all of our electronic and digital website, uh, presence, our retention communications, philanthropy and solicitation communications. And as anyone who's listening that works in higher education knows, we do a lot more. Usually the comms department is the home for any project that doesn't have a home on campus. So, um, coming this December, I am also the master of ceremonies for commencement and line people up and organize the whole thing. And you know, I do numerous things on campus, but that's kind of the fun part of being part of a community. Ah, that's also.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. That's a, uh, that's a full plate for sure. And a lot of variety too, which probably keeps it pretty interesting, I'm sure. Um, so I noticed on LinkedIn, Baldwin Wallace, uh, university is described as, quote, unquote, beating a declining education market through data driven marketing and recruitment strategies, media and meaningful content creation. Um, wondering if you could talk to me, um, maybe without giving the farm away, about how you and your team, and frankly the university as a whole has been able to do that. Is it content differences in terms of the offering, positioning of the university, better, smarter marketing, uh, or some combination of those or something completely different? What do you think? Why do you think he able to sort of beat, uh, the trends?

Speaker A: Well, uh, that's a big, There's a lot of parts to it, but I'll give my, I'll give my elevator speech kind of part of it. And I think, you know, a lot of people, regardless whether you're in higher ed or you're in any other industry that, you know, has seen ups and downs, it's really the same story. So, you know, for anybody that's been even hearing anything about higher education, especially in the Midwest, you can tell it's a very competitive market. And in the whole, the market here is declining. And the reason for that is frankly, about 18 years ago, uh, we didn't make enough babies. They weren't born then. So there isn't enough to feed the schools and the market that we need today. So a tight market with a lot of providers, Ohio has a lot of universities and colleges, drives places like bw. We have to use every advantage we possibly can, which is kind of a marketer's dream, honestly. Um, because in recent years BW has been able to drive, you know, more prospective families, people that look like they would choose BW than, uh, we've ever done before. At the same time, we grew retention, we grew the number of alumni that are active donors supporting bw. At the core of that kind of, what I would say, a little bit of an advantage that we have is that we did, uh, over the last 10 years, really change the way we looked at how we do everything based on the data that we're collecting and the ability for us to dive into that data. This is where you can see changes in your audience reach the responses and the conversion rates on a daily basis. That allows you to adjust efforts. And really what we're looking at is filling gaps and we can respond to our smart competitors that are all doing exactly the same thing we're trying to do. Right. That's what kind of makes it kind of exciting. My big caveat for that, of course, all the data in the world can't help you if you don't have a great product. So the good news is I get to tell BW's story. Um, but I can't tell a good story if there isn't a great story to tell.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, that's where I think I've been lucky over the years that the product in our case, which is the BW experience in and out of the classroom, is really strong. And the proof's been in the outcomes, which has nothing to do with the marketing. It has to do with graduation rates and employment rates and things like that, um, which are also data points. And I think that between the work of managing media buys on a daily basis, developing touch points for the recruitment funnel or developing solicitation campaigns, we of course keep very busy. I don't know any Martcom department that isn't busy. Um, at the same time, we also manage all the flagship media accounts and my favorite, not favorite, uh, crisis communications and earned media hits. Um, our approach has been, um, that we've had over the years has really been tested, especially since COVID Uh, like many universities, uh, BW structure, our number of programs, the number of services we offer, the number of faculty and staff that, uh, support them, had grown in a way that put too much stress on the daily operating budget of the institution. And even though we do have strong and consistent recruitment and retention numbers, we really can't overcome what would have been a growing deficit. Um, one, I think that for most universities it probably would, um, probably be the end for most universities. So before that imbalance got out of control here at bw, we just did the difficult work of reducing our operating budget. That means we removed administrative levels, we cut some positions and some programs. And uh, we, um, the goal there was to have the least amount of impact on the students or the student experience. Of course, doesn't mean there isn't impact and of course there's going to be impact on it, but it's to minimize that. Um, with that work done, we're trying to turn the page on our own script here. We're moving forward. We're investing in some top programs. Uh, we're offering our new students a great price, we think, and uh, we can do it. BW does best, which is provide, uh, driven students that like to get involved, like I said, with the knowledge, the skills and the experience that they need. Um, you know, so they really can be the most. They're really our marketing product. Right. So that they're the top candidates in the job market. People, you know, we often speak of higher education, you know, like our product are the degree programs, but in the end, you know, our product really is our graduates. If they're in demand. That's the thing that people buy. And um, so we have a product initially to offer to our students, but in the end the students end up becoming the product to the rest of the world. Um, so honestly, I would say weaving together marketing strategy tactics, day to day trials and tribulations. It's hard, but it's fun. Isn't that why we're here? That's what we're here to do? Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, sounds like it was a pretty smart move to sort of manage that operating budget, you know, down and, and put yourself in a, you know, a better, more flexible position to be able to, you know, adjust to any sort of market fluctuations and um, you know, so smart to be just on top of the data and making adjustments because, you know, if you don't do that, you know, certainly not going to be successful.

Speaker A: Um, it's hard. You know, you can do that. You know, it's always easy when we add a new program or add more employees or do a thing. You know, it's hard in a university setting to reduce that. You know, it really hits hard. And I don't think that's unique. Maybe the higher ed. I'm sure there's other industries, you know, healthcare, you know, insurance, things like that. When you start eliminating, I get that, um, it's difficult, but it's what needs to be done so that everything else can thrive.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You have to make those hard decisions.

Speaker B: I noticed. Sorry. Um, and your background, uh, your background is on the creative side. It looks like you spent about six or so years working In a creative capacity and a couple of different agencies. Um, so a couple of questions off of that. What do you think that experience at an agency taught you? Uh, and, and how, how has that influenced sort of the, the world, your world of university marketing?

Speaker A: Oh, well, you know, it's. I, I think I've been fortunate. You know, I just feel like I've always been fortunate. So I actually, I worked for 16 years at WISE Advertising in Cleveland, which is. Okay, is no longer, you know, it's part of Falls. Now they Falls, uh, purchased them a while back after I had left. Um, so I was, um, 10 years before that I worked, uh, in Chicago at a couple of firms. That was right after college. But after, uh, Wise, I went in house, which is the scary, the dark side. Right. Um, went in house at Kent State for a few years. And now I've been at BW for 10 years. So, uh, you're right. My career path is a little bit different because I come from the creative side. I started off as a graphic designer, art director, and then creative, uh, director for multiple teams throughout my career. Um, and now the head of marketing here at bw. So I would say that agency and um, studio life as a designer prepares you to be kind of disciplined, uh, to be a creative problem solver. Um, you know, when I was, when I was at the agency, I carried, like many people do, uh, different accounts. I did home goods stuff, services, manufacturing accounts, all national accounts. So a lot, lot going on with them. Um, so you have to, you have to really kind of get a deep understanding of your customer. Because in the morning I could be working on vacuum cleaners and in the afternoon, you know, diamonds, you know, whatever it may be. Um, so they're wildly different customers. And if you understand the people that you're talking to, what their motivations are, their hopes and their fears, then you can make a meaningful impact and meaningful message to them. You'll never, uh, get to selling them anything because you never, they're never going to consider your product, um, if you, if you don't understand what it is that they really need. And one of my favorite things, uh, that I say to young people starting out in the career is to be the voice of the customer. Um, you're going to sit in a lot of planning and marketing meetings and there will be, the management will be there, the board members, in my case would be there, the product development people will be there. But you know who's not there? The customer. So the marketing person's job is to be the voice of the customer. Because ultimately that's the only voice that really matters.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And ah, so know your customer, be the voice of the customer. And I'll tell you, even in my position here, I sit in the room and I go, but that doesn't make sense to who we're talking to. Prospective families and students. That's not what they want. So do your research, understand the customer and then that makes everything much cleaner. You get clarity that way.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's my soapbox for all the young customer.

Speaker B: No, I think it's great. Definitely, uh, I've asked that question of others in the past who started in the agency world, um, but never, never on the creative side. They were always like AES and stuff like that. And actually that kind of leads me into my, the second part of my question as it relates to your background. I'm curious why the switch, uh, over to kind of the C level business side of things from the creative side of the fence. What, what motivated you to go to uh, Baldwin Wallace and you know, work in a maybe, you know, a completely different capacity than you have had been historically?

Speaker A: Well, I think for myself, um, I still design, you know, a portion of my time is I work on the communications projects for the university. I design brochures and mailings and invitations or uh, websites, you know, whatever it is. I have full team. I have a great team, about eight folks here, um, and they do a tremendous job. But I'm also part of the creative team with it. But what it allows me to do is to really see how to apply the marketing strategy and be able to use the resources of the institution in the most effective way. So um, it's that ability to be able to manage both sides of it and actually see how it runs out into an actual piece of communication and creative being able to marry that together. We're not so big here at BW that you can't wear both those hats.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I'm not managing a 50 person team, you know, so I think that's really what it is. I would say the, the most joyful part of my job is being the lead of a, uh, marketing communications team. Pr, public information folks, designers, writers that work together on it. And, and I found over my career that I've, that's really one of my strengths is to kind of reform a team to best serve the organization, in this case the university, that what do they need to be with that? And I think that's been good. I really enjoy that a lot. And then being able to connect that to the business goals of the institution, um, and being present in the room as part of leadership. To be able to do that, I think, um, is an advantage that we have also. Yeah. Uh, so I'm grateful for that. You know, sure, I sit in meetings to talk about spreadsheets and boring stuff too, that, you know, it's just terrible. But, you know, I still, I still spend time in my week, uh, designing. In fact, just before this, I was working on the annual report and actually designing it myself, so.

Speaker B: Oh, nice. Awesome.

Speaker A: I enjoying that.

Speaker B: Um, so at the start of the conversation, I quoted the content on LinkedIn about Baldwin University breaking, uh, the curve and not, you know, going the way of other education institutions. I'm curious, what are your thoughts relative to what will happen as we look forward over the next decade as it relates to edu institutions and what, uh, in your opinion, do you think these institutions need to do to remain meaningful and relevant and attractive to prospective students?

Speaker A: Well, that's, of course, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Um, so, um, I think many institutions, especially in Ohio, are grappling with that question, what to do. Right. From a marketer person's point of view, it's fairly simple. Our existing market is shrinking. So you only really have two options in order to maintain your operating level or your budget. One, you know this, steal market share from your competitors, or two, open a new market. You can do that with a new product that you take to your customers. But while you're trying to figure that out, most of the institutions, I think will have great pressure. They might even collapse under their own budget shortfalls and lost income. So I would say so the recommendation that we've heard from other folks, professionals and consultants, consultants that we brought in, something that higher ed has a hard time with is, is we have to learn to adapt to what, uh, our future students and their families are asking for, what the market needs and how big the market is. And higher education is notoriously slow to adapt and it that will add downward pressure, slowing the need for change. So like many not for profit organizations, colleges and universities are not just businesses. You know, we have a mission to do. It's a noble mission, serve people who want to improve their lives. Right. So what we do has an impact on generations of people and their families. Yeah, I think in higher ed we overuse the words college education, you know, as a transformative experience. In fact, I won't let anybody write that that's not part of any of our creative because I've heard it once. I've Heard it a million times, but really it's core. That's what college is. That's what the product is that you're selling. You're selling an opportunity to be transformed regardless. People, you know, think that's corny or not, but that's really what it is.

Speaker B: Yeah. Is it, how, how do universities like Baldwin Wallace stay relevant and, and you know, continue to attract students, you know, aside from stealing share? Is it, uh, you know, is it, is it you think the most important thing is, um, the, the offering, the, you know, the, the kinds of products that you're selling? Is it, is it relating, you know, to that student in a way that, you know, sort of, um, hits, uh, on a more emotional, uh, level. What, you know, talk to me just a little bit about kind of what, what you think is best to zero in on if you're trying to stay meaningful and relevant to prospective students.

Speaker A: Well, first and foremost you have to have a great product. And what you said is true. You know, like I said, we have more than like 65 degree programs, right? Some, um, are more relevant to our world today and the areas that students want to spend their money on invest time and learning and skills on so that they themselves can be marketable. And we have to constantly evolve our programs. We have to, as we did just recently, eliminate programs that are in less demand. Or maybe we're just not good at it. Other people may be, but we're not. And then we just make sure that we're providing the education, the degree programs and the services that are in demand that people want for the trajectory of their lives. So that's, at first and foremost, you have to have the product. And the product is not just the degree programs. That's actually the experience. Because everything that happens on a campus, and for those of you who've been to college know it all contributes to kind of that maturing and preparing you to be able to launch the rest of your life. And so you have to have all the right co curricular activities, you have to have the service experiences, all of those things, and you meld them all together. But not all prospective students and families are the same. You can't say that one product fits all. And in our particular case, you've got to win. And I think you're getting there, which was the whole idea of you got to win their heart and their mind, right? At the same time, we talk about, here's the degree program, and this is the, uh, you want to become an accountant, here's the thing that you want. Great here's how the success rate that we have, blah, blah, blah, this is all good. And you know you're going to graduate in four years. Everybody moves on to do this. We have a 96% employment rate within six months. You can give all that facts.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: But then do you feel like you belong at bw?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we. There's this great thing and I, I don't think it's unique to bw, but I, but I love this about it is. And I felt the same way like when you go to look at, with your child to go look at lots of universities, at some point your kid's going to say, I really liked that place. I felt it when I got there. Could see themselves there. And that could be everything from the personality of the tour guides or professors that they talk to or how good the sandwich was at lunch, I don't know. But it's, they have to feel the emotional part of it. And because it's a, it's a life commitment, they're leaving home in many cases to be in this community. And so you, you have to win both their heart and their mind. And, and you need to speak to that and give them the opportunity to experience that. And um, I think that um, that's kind of the cool part of what it is. And I think the most successful businesses, products out there, don't they, they win your heart and your mind at the same time. And um, and I think that that's, that's the part that I love about this and I love when I. This is great. This is just like when I talk on campus about what our stuff, you know, everybody's like, well Darren, you know, we increased the scholarships and we did all this stuff and you know, we made the forms easier to fill out. That's all great. We got to do that. It's great customer service. But did they love it?

Speaker B: Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: Is that really what it is? So we have to make sure that we take care of that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm curious, as the market changes, I mean, I know alumni are always an important part of a university's existence, but do alumni become an even bigger part of the long term health of an institution like yours?

Speaker A: Well, you know, um, bw, like I think a lot of institutions were what's called tuition driven. Right. So you know, we, we have success based on maintaining our level of students that are in families that are paying tuition. At the same time, we're very dependent on alumni donations. And so the number of alumni that are involved, that's how Valuable. They are, you know, they, they, they are a market unto themselves. It's not automatic. We hope that everybody has, you know, a affinity, ah, for their school, for their alma mater. But our job, my job is to constantly reaffirm their purchase of their college. Even if it was, you know, 50 years ago, you know, it was reaffirm their confidence in their alma mater. And the reason why is because you can connect them then to what we're trying to do now. And, and they then say, I value what you've done for me and other people will have that same value. I'm more willing to support you. And um, they know us the best. Right. Because they actually firsthand experience the brand and so they know it whatever we do, if it rings true or not. And that's why the alumni are so valuable. They're really the bellwether for all of your markets. If they say, yeah, BW is as great as it's always been, they still got it. I believe in them. You should go there. That's the most valuable thing. I love that. We love the check that they write. But it's the, but it, but you know, I really think it's that support that we were always looking for.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to change the subject a bit on you. Um, um, I'm guessing. Well, I'm not going to try and guess what the answer to this question is, but um, I'm curious. Have you ever used outside agencies to start support any of the marketing work that you do and if so, what, what kind of agencies do you use most often?

Speaker A: Okay, so we, um, we have a lot, um, so, so dayto day I have agencies, uh, that help us with our marketing elements of our marketing strategies and campaigns. Um, I don't have an agency of record. Over the decade that I've been here at bw, I've hired uh, several agencies that have helped us at a period that, where they help us with market research. Right. So I know what I'm doing and what I'm saying at the same time, push us to change our messaging. Right. And test that messaging and make it work. Um, I have found that the most successful type of agencies that I work with are ones that help complement the team and fill the gaps for um, you.

Speaker B: Can you tell me what that means? Complementing the team and filling the gaps.

Speaker A: So I have a small but mighty team, you know, a lot. As you know, anybody that has a small mark on team knows, you know, we're, we're, we have no lack of projects. So um, but so I have designers and writers and web programmers and UX people and I, you know, public information, public relations folks that are working on all of these things. But sometimes what I need is somebody to stand outside of it and say, here's how you should stitch it together differently. And a lot of times it's like, I don't have a media planner, we do that in house. So somebody to go over my media plan, give me the hard look and have me, give me what I'm not doing well or what I should strive for. And um, those have been my best partners with it. And then on the creative messaging side. And this takes a lot of guts, I think, from a lot of other places. I mean, I love this part of the process because remember I'm an, I was an agency person. I was the guy that was brought in to do exactly what I'm asking for, which was look at every piece of my creative, look at every touch point that we're creating in our recruitment funnel and tell me why it's not good. You know, like, give me that other look. And we've had some great partners who like, don't touch the meeting plan, just look at it and you know, do be my creative director, like rip it apart and make me go back to the drawing board. A lot of, a lot of times I'm like, you go back to the drawing board, you show me what it should be. And um, they do that. Um, and I, and the, my goal usually is get us started and then we'll flesh it out to everything else. You know, we're a capable team.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And, and those have been the most healthy relationships, which has just been phenomenal. Um, that's great. And uh, so we've done, I will say we've done, um, some of the big agencies, a lot of them that serve higher education, we've worked with a lot of them at various times. And then, um, smaller agencies, even in Northeast Ohio, um, that have helped me on special projects. Um, and I have a bivvy of freelancers that we use for things. And then I have long standing contracts with web development support folks. And uh, folks are individual digital campaigns that help us with that.

Speaker B: That's great. Yeah, Uh, I think it's a real healthy way to look at it to get some perspective from outside sources that can tell you, based on their varied experience, can, uh, tell you, um, tell it like it is or at least like, you know, how they see it relative to what they've seen in the market. So I think that's Great that you're always.

Speaker A: I always tried to be the client I wish I had when I was, which was, you know, think about what a horrible nightmare I could be for somebody because I was a creator at an agency.

Speaker B: You seem like two nights of a guy to be a nightmare.

Speaker A: Right. And I want to design and everything. Oh, the poor. I feel so bad. I'm constantly apologizing to the creative teams that we hire and it's like, like, oh, really? That's an unusual font choice for that. Why are you, let's spend three hours discussing that. Um, and then, but, but no, the, the goal is, is I, I want the healthy process that I tried to instill in all of my clients. I want them to do the same for me, which is, let me have it, you know, like, let's talk real about it. And, and I know you're trying to maintain the account. You, you know, trying to grow the account. I get all that because I, I've been, I've sat on your side of the table. I know what that is, and I appreciate that. But it's the, but, uh, but I really want you to be a vital part of the development of what I'm trying to succeed. I want you to help me be successful for bw. Yeah, that's what it is. So I, I've been lucky. I mean, I have to say, some of the, I feel spades for some of the age, you know, who you are out there, um, that sometimes, like, okay, thank you very much. You've gone far enough on the creative. We'll take it from here. And they're like, what? And I'm like, don't worry, it's good. It's all good. I'm just going to take it from here.

Speaker B: Well, that kind of leads me nicely into my next or last two questions. The uh, first of which is, um, you know, any advice you'd give to marketers thinking about bringing a new agency on board?

Speaker A: Um, I, I, I would say, um, it's this, it's what the advice I just gave, which is, you know, be, be part of my team. Like, be my partner, fill the, identify, help me identify what the gaps are in what I'm doing and fill that part of it so that, you know, I can be successful and I can help the university be successful. And I think my most successful relationships has, have been that, um, and I think, um, you know, with that will come along. Like, I have several partners that we've worked with that we've, I gosh, I've worked with them for 10 years now in the agency world, that's a long time. And, um, I think that, um, that's really what it is. It's like. And I want them to call me on a regular and say, I don't think that was a good idea, Dan. You should do this instead. And I'm like, okay, great. That's what I want. You know, And I think that's, um. And because I think if the smart ones know, uh, I'm a creative at heart, right? So surprise me. Right? Show off your ability and your talent to me. I like. I like a good presentation, and I like a good show. And my team will let. My team, if they were watching, would laugh at it because, oh, you know, show Dan something, you know, designerly, and he'll. You'll get it. You'll get through, you know.

Speaker B: Um, my. My last question is sort of just a flip of that. That one. I just asked if. If an agency were trying to knock down your door cold, you know, attempting to win business from you, what advice would you give that agency?

Speaker A: Um, well, I don't. I mean, I think it's all a matter of. Of helping to identify what is it that I need right now? I find it's really interesting. I think, you know, it's the classic. We help other. The agencies help other people market their product and their services and stuff like that. But. But they also sometimes, like, now that I'm on the other side of it, like, step back. Like how, uh, you're. You send me communication. It sounds like you have all the answers to all the questions and, you know, everything. That's not true. I know that's not true. I don't have all the answers. You don't have. There's no way. It's a journey that we each have to go on. It's a project we have to all do together. And it's funny how, uh, you know, and you get them. I'm sure we all get them, which is these crazy cold emails that are like, are you tired of poor response rates? Well, we've got all the answers. Here they are. I'm like, who wrote that? Like, I wouldn't approve that. Like, what's going on here? A little bit too. What? Like, really? Yeah. I don't know. A little more humility maybe would be good.

Speaker B: So, so how. How do you. Okay, so humility is. Is one sort of piece of advice. How does. I was to say, how does that translate into sort of advice that you give an agency, you know, trying to find their way in um, well, the

Speaker A: advice I'll get is, let's sit down for a moment, let's discuss it. Let's. Let's find where I need to insert you to solve my problem, to fix the thing, to fill the gap that I have. And that's the way in. Uh, that's the way. Right. And then after that, once you're in, then you can help see all the other problems or the issues and gaps. And then that's where you insert yourself as opposed to saying, you want to sell, I want to sell you, Dan, this service from A to Z. Well, I only need every other one or I need three and four. You know, whatever it is, it's, you know, don't. I don't want to buy the package. I want to buy the parts. And maybe that's just me because of

Speaker B: where I feel, uh, you feel like an agency, um, needs to come, uh, to the table, you know, if they're trying to break through to you and know something about you. I guess the question really is, what's more important? Knowing something about Baldwin Wallace as I'm trying to call you and convince you to meet with me, or having lots of edu experience, having worked with other universities and sharing, uh, that with you, is there one that you think would be more compelling to you in your world?

Speaker A: Well, ultimately, just like, um, when I'm trying to sell, the university is know your customer, right? The customer, know me, know my university. Having experience overall in higher education, of course, is great because that's your industry experience right now, hopefully you're bringing industry insight from that experience, uh, to the table, you know, um, because we have a tremendous amount of, you know, inherent knowledge in that, um, but hearings from other folks is really valuable. But at the end of the day, it's not a one size fits all. Like, you know, don't plug and play. Every university doesn't. It doesn't fit the same mold. So. So understanding what our unique challenges may be or opportunities might be, I think would be, um, would be valuable. And I did. And I'm very realistic about that because I would never want. Wanted a client to do that to me. I don't know what I. You don't know what you don't know. You know, and I first have to say, oh, I think your capabilities fit us or might fit parts of what we're doing. And so now I can. I'll tell you the unique challenges that I expect you to go out there and find it all on your own. You know, it's. It's A relationship. So it's like, uh, you just have to get part of the way there, you know, and then I'll steer you in the right direction.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, listen, this has been great. We ran a little bit over, and I appreciate you, uh, you know, making

Speaker A: marketing guy that talks too much. Shocker.

Speaker B: I don't know what you're talking about. Right. No, it's been great. I think you've offered up some great perspective. Your background, I think, is really unique, and how that has fed into just being successful and managing the team and knowing how to tap into the right resources outside of the university to support your efforts and just, uh, you know, like the way you think about, you know, your student population and the things that are important, you know, to them. And, uh, you know, knowing that no. No single student or prospective student is the same. And so, you know, you try. Try and do your best to, uh, appeal to. To as many of them as you can. But, um. Yeah, well, listen, I appreciate it. I. Today is Friday, so I wish you a great weekend. And, uh. Yeah, and, um, like I said, Berea is not too far away from Cincinnati, so, um. I. I don't think I've ever been to Baldwin Wallace before, but I'm sure someday I'll. I'll drive by it. And, um. Yeah, right, exactly. I'll be like, hey, I know that university, so. All right. Well, listen, uh, Dan, really appreciate it. You have a great weekend. And. And thanks again for your time today.

Speaker A: And thank you, too. Marco's wonderful.

Speaker B: Thanks a lot.

Speaker A: Bye.