FLY HIGHER: Unleashing Resilience & Courage with Combat Pilot Sarah Furness - The Leadership Lounge

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Leadership Lounge. Uh, if you don't already know, we're powered by tdl and we're aiming to add value to your leadership journey. So we have amazing people with amazing stories and experts in that field joining us every Wednesday. So. So if you haven't already and you're watching us on your YouTube channel, make sure you hit subscribe if you're listening to us as you'll go, as you go by your day and make sure you follow us. And we love to hear your feedback from each episode and what your takeaway was. So today we're speaking to Sarah. How are you?

Speaker B: Hello. Yeah, I'm very well, thank you. Uh, great to be here.

Speaker A: Good. Thank you so much, Jon. This is actually our second attempt. We had a bit of a technical thought the first time, didn't we? So. And a few weeks have gone by and we did. I think we got to eight minutes, so we'll definitely get past that today. But I know Sarah from just linking up on LinkedIn, social media, similar, um, RAF background, etc. Oh, no. Were you in the RAF or army?

Speaker B: RAF, yeah, RAF.

Speaker A: I thought, you know what, as I said that, I thought I got that right. Anyway, yeah, yes, RAF backgrounds, uh, very different, um, experience, etc. But I know from, I've got a few, um, spies out there and somebody I know was in your audience, uh, when you were just speaking and they said very good things and I said, I was quite pleased myself. I said, don't worry, I've already got coming on. So that's a really funny moment. So as I hit the 20 minute timer, people don't know who you are. Please introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself and then we'll get talking all things leadership off again. Great.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So my name is Sarah furness. I spent 21 years in the Royal Air Force as a, um, helicopter pilot on the Puma, um, which is a battle helicopter, basically. Um, and then towards the end of my career started to become very interested in how the kind of the brain works. Um, so retrained as a mindfulness coach and a cognitive therapist. And then sort of when I left, I realized there was a kind of real marriage that you could do between military experience and coaching. Um, and the stories were the glue that brought it together. And so now really I'm a sort of professional storyteller, um, and I help, you know, leaders lead under pressure and perform under pressure and lead high performing teams, um, by kind of sharing the techniques That I learned, um, and bringing them to life with stories.

Speaker A: Yeah. Fantastic. I love, um, storytelling. And I say that quite specifically because when I. Within the first 12 months I left, I got asked if I could deliver a storytelling workshop. And I was like, what's one of those? And it was all the things that we kind of knew, but it was under a new label I'd not heard before. But again, it comes up all the time about how you are, uh, inspiring and delivering messages. It's really impactful, which I'm sure we'll talk about. So a pilot, Helicopter pilot going in. I'll see. Take me back. Because I know this is where we set off. Wasn't it, like, how did you get to that position? Obviously, knowing the climate, that was like 20 plus years. And, um, that was very unusual at the time. So tell me your story. I love this about how you got into that in the first place and what it was like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, so obviously the starting point, um, was Top Gun. Um, and, um, anyone, any pilot that tells you that they joined for any other reason is lying. Um, I will tell you that. So. But actually, you know, I think there's a lesson in there straight away, isn't there, that just, you know, when you're 12, you've just got this ability to dream big and you don't see the barriers. So I think that helped. And actually, you said it was unusual. It didn't occur to me that it was unusual to start out with because no one told me it was. My parents didn't tell me, my teachers didn't tell me. Um, you know, and my parents weren't the type of people that said you should get grade A's. They're the sort of people that say you could, you know, get an A if you applied yourself. So I think that really helped me to just join the Air Force, just full of hope. Um, and just didn't occur to me that I'd find it, you know, any, any difficult. Um, and. And then, of course, uh, flying is quite hard. I wasn't immediately good at it. Um, and so I realized that there was a bit more involved in this kind of dream to become maverick. And probably, you know, noticed I was the only girl. So that's probably playing on your mind somewhat, like, should I be here? How did I slip through the net kind of thing? I can't remember if I told you about my arms last time, but one of the things I had to get past is they told me my arms were too short to be a pilot. Um, so I had to work out how to lengthen them, which I did.

Speaker A: I've got this vision of you walking around with really heavy bags like all the time. Time. Now, how did you do that?

Speaker B: I actually, I got like a, my mum found me a personal trainer and that's like, no one had personal trainers back then, especially not when you were 16. But he actually gave me really yoga exercises because he said you can't really make your arms longer but you can increase your flexibility in your shoulders. So that's what I did. Um, and then after, you know, I've managed to finally sort of convince the Air Force to remeasure me and, and let me through. And I remember the doctor saying, please don't tell any other women because I'll be inundated. And, and at that moment I thought, right, I'm going to tell as many women as I can. Um, because you've got to get the message out there. So, um, so yeah, um, and I had very supportive sort of network that got me through, got through to the fast jet training. Um, and um, then, uh, sort of ran out of talent really and um, ended up being chopped from helicopters and um, sorry, chop from fast jets and going on to helicopters. Uh, which is um, another story as well.

Speaker A: So, so if that does, that story about lengthening, if that doesn't show you had a little bit of determination back then, I don't know what does. So you said about getting chosen, what part has. Or uh, you mentioned necessarily that word failure that we don't necessarily like. But I know in your story there has been an element of that. So tell us a little bit about what that's given you.

Speaker B: Yeah, and it's given me so much actually because a lot of these things, the pain doesn't drop until years later. Um, you know, at the time you're just kind of surviving. I think there was probably, you know, we would probably call it imposter syndrome these days. There probably was a bit of that going, oh, you know, how have I managed to skip through the net? So there's a bit of self sabotage that happens, but also I think it's fine to say that, you know, worked really hard at it and I'm a big growth mindset. Um, you know, I love the idea of, you know, if you work hard or something, you'll get there. But the truth is there are some things you have to work harder at to be better at and flying fast jets was one of them. Um, so I sort of, I think I probably did run out of talent, probably didn't work as hard as I could. Um, but then when I went onto helicopters, it was brilliant because, you know, the world slowed down, I was going four times slower. I had all this capacity and I was able to enjoy flying for the first time ever because, um, you don't really enjoying it, um, when you don't think you're very good at it. And I think that taught me a couple of things is actually we have this idea of natural talent, um, and I do think that there will be some things we're more predisposed to. But the truth is even the ones that flew Harriers and Jaguars, you know, they're not down the bar every night not revising. They're working really hard to get, um, where you are. And you mentioned Mandy Hicks, and I'm m sure she will share her story, you know, um, and she was one of the trailblazers, but no one has got there just through talent. Um, so I think that, you know, was a really, really good point that I took home is that, you know, just, just work hard for it. But also I think don't be afraid to stretch yourself further than maybe your natural ability because a, you're learning a kind of really good life skill. You know, just aim big. Why not? Um, because if you aim for the, you know, the stars, you might land on the moon. You know, I ended up being a helicopter pilot and I'll take that, thank you very much. And when I did, I had this advantage because, you know, I flew in a lot faster. So I guess it comes back to this. Train hard, fight easy, you know, push yourself as hard as you can, and don't worry if you fall short of the mark because you'll end up having an advantage, um, for so many reasons.

Speaker A: Fantastic. And you've just, you saying that is just sparked thought in my process about. And we'll come back to your leadership experiences in the military as well. But you said about slowing down. How important is that in the outside world now of like so many people are trying to go 1000 miles an hour, Mach 1 and then slowing somebody down by 4 for short periods of time, how much they see things differently. So if you have that experience to share that across and be like, you just need to slow down a little bit and see the benefits of that, is that one of the things you look at, experience that.

Speaker B: That's such a good point. And you can do that in more ways than one. In the helicopter, obviously if you get lost, you can just stop. It's a really good advantage. But Yeah, I think, you know, the truth is none of us have got here by going slow. Right. You know, most people are, you know, we're fast thinkers. We do things, we get things done. We say yes. You know, so everyone listening to this podcast has probably got to where they've got to by going fast. Um, so. And it probably won't come naturally to you. So it happened. It was forced on me, uh, by going helicopters. And then also, you know, you know what it's like in the military, the hurry up and wait. There are times when you are forced to sit on your hands. And so it's one of those things that if it doesn't get forced on you, you have to force it on yourself and have those moments where you sit still and go, right, you know, what is actually the helicopter view here, if I could throw in that pun? Um, you know, what is the real priority here? And with the best will in the world, you can't do that when you're flying at Mach 2. Even Mandy Hickson lands from time to time and has a debrief. So, you know, I do think that's something that, you know, we probably didn't realize, again, how powerful it was until you look back on that and discuss with the people and go, wow, that really gave you a clarity that you prob. Probably wouldn't have had. Um, and I think that's a message that leaders need to hear and kind of give themselves permission. And it's not a case of you can't keep up. It's not a case of you're letting people down. It's a case of I need to take a step back so that I can be a better leader.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so tell me a little about. There might be some stories that you share outside in your speaking now, but your experience of leadership in the military. How would you summarize that and kind of elements that you learned, some of the challenges you had? I know there's probably loads, but if you were to pick one or two, what. What would you pick?

Speaker B: So there's. There's so much. And again, I've been reflecting on this. If I sort of try to take 20 years and compress it into, you know, the next two minutes, um, a lot of people ask, is there a such a thing as a natural leader? And I think in the military, I. When I joined, um, you know, that they are recruiting, what I would have thought of as a natural leader, And I would have been described as one of those. And that's. Let's. Let's face it, that's because I was confident for my age. Um, and um, I sort of put myself out there and I was assertive and you know, a classic red if you're into that kind of thing or a high D. Um, again I struggle with that a little bit because I think leaders come in all sorts of um, guises and I've come to really appreciate someone who's a bit better at listening or a bit better at being a team player or a bit better at ah, thinking. And these are all things that I have to work harder at. So I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a natural leader. But I think because I put myself out there I was more likely to be selected for leadership which meant I was more able to practice it. And I think that's the key point is that leadership is a learned behavior and the military is very good at giving you experiences in which you can kind of hone those skills. Um, so I think that's one thing from starting out and then I think the other big thing is knowing what your interferences are, knowing the things that hold you back. Um, and again it kind of go back to having that clarity. It's all very well having a vision of what you want to do as a leader, but we often get in our own way. And I know personally for me I always battle with this big fear of rejection. I was worried that I was not going to be liked and I probably made bad leadership decisions when I was obsessed with wanting to be popular over being doing the right thing. Um, and you could translate that into reputational risk if you were talking in the corporate world or just the fact that we all kind of want to be approved of. So I think it's about being honest about the things that get in the way of you leading the way that you want to, not giving yourself a hard time because that doesn't actually work. Um, and then honestly being committed to working with those interferences so that you can, you know, push past them and be everything that you're capable of being.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was just thinking that about. I'll say. I've got a few people that I know that have been through flying training and one of my old colleagues and friends in the RAF swim team. I'm trying to get him on at the minute. He's currently on fast jets and it's really interesting one and I don't know to what extent you experience this as obviously being a fast jet or a helicopter pilot. It's very self driven, isn't it? Of like your skill set, uh, you're there to do your job. You're very good at your job, hence why you're in. Recruited or in that position in the first place. That, uh, transferring that over to that, uh, you mentioned teamwork before about that kind of. Right. I now need to have that understanding that I can bring other people into this process and how I need other people. It's that thing of, oh, it's easier, just do it myself. And one of the, uh, observations I had when I left the military was loads of people are really good at their jobs, but it's a different concept when you start having to build a team dynamic. And so if you. Did you experience that in the military, like I presume later on in your career, when you had more leadership responsibilities to be. The going back to that helicopter thing is that it's not you doing the do anymore. You actually commanding and leading people.

Speaker B: Yeah. Again, you know, so much you can pick up from that. The teamwork is really interesting. And I again, you know, I hold my hand up and say, you know, teamwork and being a team player is something I've probably had to work harder at because I was that kind of person that thought I could do everything myself. And that was a challenge. When I went to helicopters, they were like, sarah, you're not the only one in the cockpit anymore. You know, give us something to do. No, no, no, but I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I can do this. Um, so, um. So, yeah, I think there's a few things, you know, one is I learned that a good team is a team that can supportively challenge each other. And it's easy to say that, but, my God, it stings when it happens. So you've kind of. You know, I would take that as rejection, but whatever you want to call it, you know, a really good team, everybody can speak with complete candor, even if there is a hierarchy and you say yes or no to orders, because what's the point in having 16 brilliant people in your team if only one of them is speaking up? You know, it's just pointless. So, you know, and I think the military did that by giving each other robust banter. And so we had that ability to be quite honest with each other.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but I think that's one of the things I. I really learned. Ah. And I'm. And also that light bulb has really kind of come on since I've left the Air Force and I started coaching. Because a lot of leadership, I think, comes down to coaching people to Be their best and really shine. 100. It's not just about the right people in the room. It's about how do we nurture them to go beyond what they thought was even possible.

Speaker A: Yeah. Fantastic. So I know you do a lot of great speaking. Now I mentioned it before. Getting good feedback from others is always a good thing. Um, so tell us a little bit about what you speak about. Um, who normally gets you in to speak. What's the, usually the, the reason why? Because again, that's coming out of the military bubble thing that I talk about all the time. So what's going on out there for you to speak and inspire people at the minute? What's the current need, if you like.

Speaker B: Yeah, so again, really interesting because. And everyone says, you know, who's your, who's your niche target or you know, your customer, uh, avatar and all that sort of stuff. And I still stand by the fact that it's reasonably broad because as a general rule, um, we work in a volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous environment. Uh, most companies are leading in that environment. Most companies need to do more with less. Um, probably the dreaded Covid didn't help with that because we got used to no commute. So we actually just put more in our day as opposed to less into it and so on and so forth. So people are experiencing these challenges of how do I get the best out of my team when there is just more and more pressure. And I don't see any resource coming from anywhere. Um, so it's that kind of productivity, performance under pressure and high performance teams. Um, and I think also again, high performers find it really hard to say no and let people down. And we think that that's what we're doing when we say actually I'm going to come to that in two days time or actually I'm not the right person for the job. So I think that that is just a kind of societal global trend. And I, I think maybe the reassuring thing is that there isn't one industry. Everybody's feeling it. Everybody is finding this a challenge. So if you are feeling it in your business, you're not the only one. And you haven't got it dramatically wrong. It's just the way the world is. Um, so I kind of. The talk that I am most asked to talk about is where I talk about unitasking that uh, is focus on one thing at a time. And when you break down flying it looks really complex and you've got a million things happening at once. But actually you're just doing one thing at a time. And if you can do that at Mach 2 and still do your time on target and fly a formation of whatever it is, obviously I wasn't flying at Mac 2 then so can a company. So that's the kind of the really core message that I'm taking out to people is focus, like prioritize what your one thing is and do that one thing really well and then work out how everybody in your team can do that one thing really well. So what's their greatest strength and what do they need to be able to give that their full attention? That's really when you really boil my message down. That's the main thing that I'm telling Big corporates are under pressure to perform more with less fantastic.

Speaker A: And again I think that's from people listening to that. That's a key takeaway, isn't it? Of like oh uh, yeah, that light. We were saying about light bulb moments. Who's listening to this? And I'd like to your percent your thoughts on this because I've had this and I'd love to know your thoughts whether you've experienced this or not. I was very surprised when I came out but obviously I was like, I've got no experience in business, I'm not from the corporate world. Who am I to share my story background. But actually it's gone, it's flipped completely 180, 360 however you want to call it. But um, have you had that experience that you people love hearing different stories going back to the story thread, um, and linking it to their world. Like you're talking about high performing teams, people in the military. It's different, isn't it? It's a change of language. But again their takeaway can be quite powerful. If you sometimes have that feedback of going I'm just me and I'm telling my story and I can't believe you've had so much takeaway from that.

Speaker B: Yeah, so massively. Um, and again there's so much more to pull apart from that. I think people might go, oh you know, my world's so different from yours. But the brain is the brain and the brain sees stress, you know, in the same way the brain feels emotion in the same way whether you're flying a helicopter or whether you're dealing with a billion pound budget, you know, and we're actually more afraid of things that won't kill us and things that will kill us. So actually we're much more similar and the day we're all humans. So I'm always really keen at the start of a talk to point out how I'm exactly the same as people, I'm not better or I just have a different experience. But I also recognize that I trained and trained and trained and trained, which is something you don't have the luxury of doing in the corporate world. So I want to distill the best bits of my training to help people on their front line every day because that's effectively kind of what they're doing. And I think a lot of the ways that we can do that, I think the power of something like storytelling is it gives, um, you know, well, it brings something to life. But also I think the beauty of a story is people can take their own learnings from it. You know, different part of the story will resonate with people in a different way. Some people get permission to say no. Some people feel inspired to go and prioritize. And that's the beauty of a story is you're not kind of marching in there and going, do it my way. You're saying, this is my story. You take what you need from that today to go and do what you probably already know you need to do.

Speaker A: Mhm. I like that. And again, it just, it's making me. Because that, that perception of storytelling. And again, you do sometimes get that reaction from people that we still have that thing. So, oh, am I just going to sit down with a book and start telling this is my life stories? Uh, and, and some of it is that, but it's a skill set as well. Like anything, it's a skill set to start going from that tell to that you mentioned before about that coaching style and that inspiring style. So I like that. So we've only got a minute or so left. I want to sort of pick your brains on if somebody's listening to this from your perception, your experience so far, listening to what's going on. What do you think the future holds for leadership? Any challenges, anything people need to be looking out for? It's a big question to finish off with.

Speaker B: And it's only going to be Sarah's opinion and probably a little bit of projection of what I'd like it to be. Um, but I do think that our idea of leadership is evolving. You know, it's not quite so for me and maybe that's just my own personal journey. It used to be that look at me, follow me kind of thing. I feel like there's more leadership from behind, you know, more of that kind of coaching, empathetic style that is starting to be more recognized. Um, and I think that's for the better. Um, and I think the main quality that you need as a leader is curiosity. Stay curious, you know, don't ever think you've got all the answers. Because I've learned almost as much about leadership in the two years I've left as I learned in the 20 years I was in. So I think, you know, the hallmark trait of a great leader is curiosity. Because I think we will see our idea of leadership change and it will only get better.

Speaker A: Fantastic. What a great way to finish. 20 minutes and it's gone really quickly yet again. So thank you so much for your time today. If you're watching us on the YouTube channel, before I say make sure you subscribe. I did lose the camera a couple of times, so we were a bit doomed to attack here, but m. We managed to get it back again. So if you watching us on the YouTube channel, make sure you hit subscribe. If you're following us on the, um, if you're listening to us, sorry, on your podcast provider, make sure you hit follow and do pass it on. Something that will be useful to hear, inspiring others in their leadership journey. And Sarah's links, LinkedIn. All the website links will be below, so make sure you go and check her out, etc, there. Oh, very nice. Like that, uh, tech in there. Sorted. So, Sari, again, thank you so much for your time.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you, thank you. I've really enjoyed it. I can't believe it's 20 minutes already.

Speaker A: I know. And hopefully our paths will cross at some point. Uh, I'll get the pleasure of meeting you in person as well. So, ladies and gents, thank you for listening and watching. Uh, I'll see you all next week. Take care. Bye.