Focus, Change and the Future of Logistics with Christiaan Carstens

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello, I'm Pete Raby, and you are listening to the Leadership Learns podcast. Today we're joined by Christian Carstens of leogistics, a supply chain technology company that helps large organizations manage and optimize complex logistical operations. Christian began his career in the military before joining SAP themselves, gaining deep experience in enterprise technology before taking a bold step in 2011 to join LeoGistics, which was then a growing startup. Eogistics has played a key role in shaping its evolution and success and has been instrumental in its growth ever since. In this episode, we'll discuss the pivotal moments in Christian's journey, including the need for change in 2022, how that transformation was successfully delivered, and the key lead leadership lessons he's taken from it since then. Welcome, Chris. You. I'm, um, delighted to have you on the podcast. I've been looking forward to the conversation for the last couple of weeks since we've had the date booked in. I guess to kick us off, if you could give us that brief introduction into that background and the journey that led you to join LeoGistics in the first place.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you, Peter. Perhaps it's a little bit exotic. It's not something like a straight way. You know, When I left school, I joined the Federal Armed Forces here in Germany, the Air Force here, with the overall objective to become a logistics officer. I mean, that was more or less the way to go. And during that time I went to university and, uh, learned quite a lot about logistics. And then there was a time where I was responsible for a distribution center pretty close to Cologne. And of course we stored quite a lot of service parts for the aircrafts and did quite a lot of parts distribution to all the different areas. And then there, there was a decision to implement SAP there. And then I thought, okay, SAP and logistics, that could be a nice combination for me. Why not, uh, just say, here I will be the one, I want to be the one who's responsible for that implementation. And that was more or less the start of my SAP journey, or bringing together logistics and SAP. And then afterwards it was just simple thing like changing the sites from the Air Force to SIP directly. But then I said, okay, uh, military logistics is quite interesting. Yeah, definitely. You learn logistics right at the beginning, uh, from the heart, definitely. But I would like to do something different. And then I joined a team who was able for or who was responsible for consulting services in the manufacturing, especially automotive industry. And that is where I work for SIP directly. And yeah, during that time, there was a moment, a quite good one, when we Had a project for a big car manufacturer here in Germany. It was about finished vehicle distribution logistics. And there I met a guy and he was the founder of Layogistics. He was also a former colleague of mine in sip. He was also a former SIP colleague. He founded that company with more or less a vision to have a solution where SAP, standard solution where SAP was simply not able to deliver something. And I, uh, met that guy during that pitch. And then more or less, it's a longer history, longer story. Definitely we can go through it. But that was basically the starting point where I met the logistics the first time. And during that time it was a small, small company, but was a bright vision, do something different in the logistics execution sector. And that somehow caught me during that time and I saw something, I saw a potential. But yeah, basically there was no pressure on my side to leave sip. It was a great company with great colleagues, great team. But then there was something and I decided, ah, should I join, should I join? What should I do? And um, actually yeah, the decision was drawn there that I needed, needed to leave SAP and join logistics. And that was more or less, uh, how the journey at lyricistic started. It is basically perhaps a little bit longer because yes, there was a long evening in a summer house in Denmark with that founder. He's still a good friend of mine. And we talked about those things. And yes, definitely after a couple of beers I said yes. But then I started to rethink about it again. Then I had a great conversation with my former neighbor. He was always an entrepreneur. Uh, and then he asked myself, hey, Christian. Yeah, it sounds good. Sip, you will make your way there. Definitely. Guys like you, they will make your way. But you need to decide whether you want to be an engine or just a part of an engine. That's a decision you need to draw. And uh, yeah, I draw the decision. Uh, during that night and the next day met my boss in SAP and quitted and said, okay, this, you cannot do anything. The decision is now there. I need to do something new. And that was the beginning of the adventure. Yeah, nice.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, as you say, a question that I'm sure lots of people over the years have been, been asking themselves that same question, but beautifully described there. And let's talk about it because I described it in the introduction, it was effectively a startup. I know from my own experience a startup phase is so different to a medium sized business. There are so many chapters that you go through in that journey. But maybe for listeners that aren't aware of the journey, what have Those key milestones been for you since that logistics journey began?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, basically, okay, the first big milestone was the start with logistics. Now they've always, like, if you compare it, for example to SAP sip, they, I mean, it's still a modern company. It was during that time. I mean, it's 12 years ago, but there were processes for almost everything. Huh. And if you compare it to logistics, there was a task and no process how to handle that task. So it was simply on your desk. And you need to be creative to find solutions for that. And you just need to somehow get this task done with different ways. Then where's the process for that? Where are the responsible person for that? Because basically we were responsible for everything. So that was one big, big change. But I still can smile how we handled those different topics in different ways with all the creativity. But looking back at my journey, can remember two main milestones. I will even say the first one was when our team was about a hundred people, which is definitely a good size of a team, definitely. It's, uh, like a little bit ahead of the startup part. But basically I can remember a Christmas event and we booked a hotel, was a big room, and then we made some presentation before a nice dinner and some parties, stuff like that. But, uh, when that presentation started, we saw 200 eyes looking on us. And for us, the whole journey, it was like a funny adventure. We had quite a lot of fun, definitely. And I think that was also the reason why we were so inspired by different topics and so motivated. It was always fun. It still is. But at this time I can remember, okay, there are 200 eyes looking on you from people who trust you, trust your private life. They have their own family houses, whatever, credits, whatever. They trust you. And then I took, uh, a look at my friend there who was a founder, still acting as the CEO at that time, and said, okay, take a look at that. They all trust us. I mean, we are responsible, uh, we can still have fun, but we are responsible now for not ourself, for our own mood. And we're responsible for that big team here and we need to think what needs to be done next on and so on. So that was a big milestone. First realizing the responsibility that you have. And then the second big milestone, okay, you mentioned it, it was, uh, 2022, where we split it, the company and where almost everything changed during that time. Uh, that was really a big, big milestone. Another big milestone in that logistic journey so far. Because more or less during that time. So in the change of years from 2022 to 2023 we were a startup again. Um, so I need to organize everything again. I think we will come back later a little bit to that story, what happened there. But definitely that was the second biggest milestone. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: And I think because, you know, especially interesting to me, we are a group of organizations, we're set across the STEM sectors and therefore we with entrepreneurial thinking, which lots of businesses have in them. You think, oh, is this a standalone business? Is this a different part of the group? Is it like when to split out, when not to, uh, is always a very difficult decision and has a lot of ramifications for the people, for the strategy, for profitability sometimes and everything else. 2022 is the year it happened. But like how long had the build up been? How long have questions been asked? How long had that been thought, been rumbling? And really what were those key, those key pillars of decision making that meant that 2022 was the right time?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean basically just to give in some more background information about that. I mean we as logistics, we had two completely different business models under one umbrella during that time. The first one was a pure consulting business like project orientated, timelines, due dates, customer and focus, quite a lot of communication, process knowledge, whatever, individual customizings, developments, whatever. That was one big business area of logistics. And then there was a second big business and that is something what we started 2017 and that was a product orientated business, that software as a service. So we, we build up a logistics execution platform from scratch. So the first cluster was SAP orientated and the second one, the software as a service cluster was not SAP at all. Uh, it was a non sub platform. And that of course is product orientated. I mean of course it's also customer orientated on the one hand, but at the end there's a product and the product needs to scale so it needs to be somehow a standard and you need to have room for standard development, product development, product management. And the business model is completely different. I mean consulting scales with headcounts, uh, with expertise, with knowledge, software as a service gets, with subscription fees, the more the better. Uh, and there were two business models more or less in the competition under one umbrella. And that was a little bit difficult because those two business models, they started to hinder them directly, you know what I mean? I mean there is conflicts. I mean there are different types of stuff required for those business areas like the consultant, the experts, the custom development guys. Definitely. And on the one other hand, the solution architects, the technical ones, the platform engineers, Whatever. And there were conflicts all the time. And up to the year 2022 where the decision was made. I would even say the discussion has, uh, been in place for around two, three years now. I mean, basically right after we started this adventure one or two years later, it become more and more clearer that this is something different. Definitely. And then, yeah, finally the decision was not directly drawn by us. We belong to a group, uh, it's family owned. And of course there are lots of other stakeholders involved or has been involved in that discussion. Definitely, for sure. But 22 or 2022. The decision was finally made during. Yeah. And then sometimes very spontaneous then. I mean, sometimes it's just, okay, you need to do it now. Uh, we discussed about the years, but now it needs to be done due to whatever tax reasons, whatever. It needs to be done by the end of the year. Uh, and then you have the pressure, you have the work on your desk, and then you just need to start.

Speaker B: Yeah, you, you've alluded to one of those things already, Christian, which is my next question. Because the realization that the models were clashing, this can't exist or coexist. Well, then someone put in the smart thing and making it immediately time bound. Like, no, no. Okay, listen. By the end of the year is when it's going to happen. But wow. I mean, let's be honest, there are pages, uh, and pages and pages of written. Of examples and books that have written about how to do such things badly and messily and at a, uh, great cost. Reflecting back on that now. And it's a nice period of time since it happened without it being too long, where you think, I can't actually remember most of it other than it being time bound. What were the key elements that allowed that execution to be as successful as it sounds like it was.

Speaker A: Yeah, perhaps there are two things. The first thing was for both organizations, for both, basically, it was the chance. It was the chance. It was nothing strange, it was nothing dangerous. It was, uh, it was for both organizations, the chance. And you know, whenever you want to change something, if you put that change in the positive way, the change will be successful. And when we started to split the company at that time, I mean, there's definitely no book how to handle it. Uh, you just need to start and you need to have a good gut feeling. Um, but anyhow, at the end, the enabler for everything was the positive mindset for that. It was a chance for us at leogistics. I mean, if I start to remember the time, I still start to smile because I mean in January 2023 we had around 100 people on the consulting side where I was responsible for. We had great customers so business was on the table but we had no idea, simply no idea how to write an invoice at the end of January. No idea. And there of course there was pressure then uh, because the way was that the case because all kind of normal business functions like the business administration department, hr, whatever, marketing, it all has been gone due to the carve out because it was part of a new company and we were just a group of people who need to find themselves. But on the other hand there was uh, the company we belong to 100% they offered quite a lot of services for us like hr, new IT systems, the possibility to scale, uh, even on a global level, whatever. There were so many things which made that situation so good for us that there was simply a big chance and to translate this chance and to communicate this chance to that group of people waiting for solutions and a strategy for us that was of course a big, big topic. Um, see this chance, be convinced from this chance and then try to somehow communicate this chance step by step and give the team trust. I mean we lost almost nobody during that time. All the stuff still completed, uh, with a normal fluctuation I would even say, but not during that time. And the second thing, the second thing which made that so successful from our side is during that time both got back their focus, their focus on their key business where they are good in. And during that time before 2022 we lost a little bit the focus. We did almost everything, consulting service here, solution development here, software as a service here, trying to be in startup, in company, whatever. We lost our focus, um, from a portfolio perspective, from the software development perspective, even from the strategy perspective, we lost our focus. And in 2023 the good thing was we were completely back in that area where logistics came from, from that SAP solution area. And uh, there was more or less a reaction from all the team, from the team members who joined me to that service. It was like okay, we got it back, we got it back. We're still, we're just on the SAP area where we're good and that's a good thing. And that was I would even say the second big topic, focus, chance, positive mindset, willingness to change and then the

Speaker B: focus uh, nicely though you know what I'm hearing from that as well is what was able to happen is that you could get a very clear like I love blank piece of paper thinking. I think it helps to whittle it down to one a four piece of paper. You did the separation, the bit, you know, the software as a service business versus consulting business in two very different businesses, and the ability to set a clear vision, the ability to get everyone united behind it. And then actually it sounds like it was, uh, the right thing to do because of the one, it was well executed. But secondly, there were no losses. I think that shows that people were like, yes, I believe in this business model so much more than before. We're speaking in April 2026, somehow, which defies belief on different occasions. But there's great uncertainty that exists in the global climate right now. There are those two letters called AI that, you know, I don't know if you've heard of them, Christian. It hasn't been much of a topic for conversation the last year or two. And of course, you know, uh, software services as a business versus consulting businesses. The impact on AI and uncertainty really does have different impacts. It would be really interesting. And then of course, at the same point, right back at the beginning of this story, SAP, a few weeks ago, became Europe's most valuable company. Right. So, like, there's, There are all of these things in the mix at the moment. Uh, and I'd be interested to know today, where do you sit in relation to the impact of uncertainty and the impact of AI on both of those different types of market areas?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, AI is, I would even say, the technology, which will lead to a disruption in the consulting market. Definitely, for sure. Because knowledge, more or less, is not something exclusive anymore. Uh, knowledge will be there, simply available for everybody. Technology will be able to somehow, whatever, get the knowledge, make advantages out of the knowledge. So that is not the topic anymore. Expertise will be there. And also within solutions. I would even say, okay, if you have data, data technology, and you have AI on top of it, AI will work independently with all these data, you know, all the AI agent stuff, whatever. That will be also a massive change for the area we are working with in the logistics area. Logistics, execution area, that's for sure. But it will not be the end of our consultant business because somehow there's something required to start transformation and to bring people from stage one to stage two. And that is, I call it always the human interface. Human, uh, intelligence enabled by a human interface. So we as humans, definitely with different skills than today as a consultant. Definitely. So all the soft skills, talking with people, clear communication, motivate people, explain the change, whatever, explain the value, whatever is required, that will be even more important than the pure knowledge and that is where I am really, really convinced that from a consulting perspective, our work will be even higher but completely different than today. Uh, it's a knowledge part, the big expertise part that will be somehow an AI topic. But you simply need to have first technology competence, of course, how to use all the stuff and how to deal with a large language model, whatever. You need skills to communicate on both sides, huh? Communicate with AI, like the whole prompting stuff and then translating the stuff back to whatever needs to be changed or impacted by it. And then of course the third topic, and that is something what we should not underestimate currently at that stage of technology, is a validation part. Not everything what is brought out of the AI is right. Uh, so you need to validate it and therefore still we will still be there, but different. Uh, if you compare the business models today and in the future, if you ask me, currently consulting business scales with headcounts, headcounts and then multiplied by hours is more or less your revenue. Huh. In future time, I would say there are different models on the table how to monetize your business, your expertise. Um, definitely different than just pay by hour. Huh. That will be something on the first and that will change. The length of the typical consulting project will also differ a little bit. They will not as long as they are now shorter, more efficient, whatever. So there are quite a lot of changes for our business. But basically, yeah, we will still be

Speaker B: there hopefully, but this is it. But I agree with so much what you said. You know, I had the great privilege of working and meeting clients in the eu, meeting, uh, clients in the US and there's two recurring themes that people keep talking about. Like one, and I'm excited for us now, business, the thing that underpins everything from consulting, from staffing, of what we do to is trust, right? All of these clients that I've met for 95% of our conversation, we're not talking shop, we're not talking about the details and the semantics of business and what they're doing. They want to talk about life, they want to talk about human connection. Because naturally, you know, we are a species that craves human connection, right? And craves trust. And actually AI yet is not in trust with lots of people. The results it spits out aren't, um, trustworthy. So I actually think, although people's LinkedIn inboxes might be much fuller with all kinds of AI created automation, the reality is when you have individuals in markets that where you can add genuine value added, and there's the human that you can Say, oh, I think we might have got that a bit wrong. That's the bit that actually people want more and more. So I agree, I think it's going to shape certain things, but. And it's really going to help time efficiency. If ultimately you can be meeting more clients and doing less admin tasks as a human, that's only a good thing. But it's that trust bit which is AI is never going to replace that in my opinion. So as long as you're good at what you do and can add value to a client about what you do, I just see the time of where you spend it is going to change quite, quite significantly in the coming years. Right. Um, I'd be interested as well. You know, logistics specifically and AI and technology. Christian, are there any trends that you're already seeing or that you predict that is going to be that logistics specifically is going to be moving into in the coming months and years?

Speaker A: Yes, for sure. But we need to somehow distinguish a little bit where in the area, which area of logistics. I mean, you take a look into the warehouses for example. The warehouses are currently already very automized, very optimized. Not all of the warehouses, but let's focus on that. High volume warehouses and the retail area, whatever. Uh, they are highly automated. Uh, but still there's room for AI. But what kind of AI? Of course, on the one hand you can talk with your systems, get the whatever information out of your system, use what bots, whatever. On the other hand you can, you can utilize like those AI agents to just do some repetitive work or somehow. Yeah, definitely for sure. And, and it starts, or it has already started. Now there are productive cases, but I guess in the warehouse area or even the production era, but, but let's focus on the warehouse area. One main big trend will definitely be humanic robotics. Um, that's definitely for sure something. But we will see within the next years that there are those human acting robotics working in the warehouse and that in that area, especially in that area, leadership will become even more difficult. Because I can imagine somehow that you need to act with hybrid teams, uh, consisting of real humans and doctor Medic robotics. It's a little bit science fiction, but I'm talking about a midterm perspective actually. Yes, midterm, not long term. Huh. So that's the case, definitely. And if you take a look into the transportation area, I could imagine that um, the possibility of using agentic AI will lead to the situation that transportation management from the planning and dispatching point of view will be even more automated. Than it is currently. Definitely for sure. Of course there are some, some barriers when it comes to collaboration in between different companies, whatever legal restrictions, safety restrictions. But I would say that is a big area where AI will definitely help transportation planners, dispatchers to somehow be more effective optimized capacity utilization, whatever. All those topics around the planning and dispatching stuff.

Speaker B: Absolutely. It's uh, been a much uh, much discussed topic. We do an awful lot of work out in Texas and around the Boston area and just hearing the noises about companies like Tesla removing entire car manufacturing plans to replace it with humanoid manufacturing is like as you say, that is really getting ahead of steam right now and is very, very exciting when it comes to the capability. Uh, in some ways just not a dissimilar version of what was happening in the 90s when it came to robotics in the automotive sector. Yet this time it won't be the, it won't just be the robots helping get a will on a car. It's going to be them doing the entire, uh, entire assembly. So I think as you say that has, that has great, great potential.

Speaker A: But Peter, when you take a look at this, I mean this is also the next change for us as a provider of solution services in that area. I mean customer demands, they will change and um, that has already changed, but they will change massively. Providers of your future, they need to somehow find solutions enabling our customers there to utilize all the technology stuff somehow and to get their work done in a different way. That's on the one hand. So our portfolio definitely needs to change. Uh, we need to adjust it according to the requirements and wishes of our customers. And on the other hand we also do have this massive chance again to utilize this technology for us, for us in the different areas, in the consulting areas like starting from pre sales, sales marketing, whatever, expertise, analysis, development, AI based coach development, whatever. They're also huge opportunities for us. So although we have managed first big transformation recently, I think there's a next big transformation right ahead of us which makes it still interesting.

Speaker B: Well, that interesting was going to be my next thing I wanted to ask you about Christian was the fact that you know we, we've just, we've this described the separation of the, of the group in 2022. I was going to ask you about, you know, since then, how are things now versus the medium term aims that you set about the long term aims and really what you, you know, what you see as the biggest challenges of achieving where you want to be in the future. And I think you're probably about to start Talking through one of those challenges right there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but perhaps, I mean during the last years our organization achieved another level of maturity. That's definitely for sure. We are a different company than we have been in the past. More major, more part of a big international global group, uh, more offices, also from a global perspective, a bigger team. So we're another company now. Not from the values, definitely. Uh, they are still the same and they are carrying us through all the steps of our journey. Definitely. But uh, from a level of maturity I would say, and if you reach another level of maturity, of course you can say what will be next. And from us the next thing is of course that we still have a clear growth strategy. Strategy, because the market now is big enough, definitely for sure. And we are pretty well positioned at the group, not as lauristics individual, but as part of a big groom offering a real end to end portfolio which is from our perspective a uh, privilege to be part of such a group. So there's quite a lot of potential for more revenue in the future for us on the street. And the question now is, okay, uh, what needs to be done to somehow realize those revenue potential then to grow? And we made a clear strategy now that there's so much on the street that why not having an ambitious target to somehow double the revenue within a certain period of time. So we still want to grow. And what needs to be done now? Finding the right people, definitely for sure, huh, Headcount, Finding the right experts, definitely it's a major topic. But on the other hand, set up an organization, uh, from a scalability perspective, from a capability perspective for us, pretty new from a global perspective, serving in new markets and which are the right ones, which are the right people for which task, and so on. Those are the questions we are currently discussing quite a lot. And we are ahead of a next transformation on that material. I mean if you think about different plateaus, let's call it like this, huh? I mean you have the startup plateau, then the organization starts to learn on their journeys, making mistakes, gaining experience. Next level, 50 people, 100 people, whatever. Uh, revenue here, first, international projects there and there. And now we have the situation, okay, we can go to a higher plateau, what needs to be there? And that is those are discussions which we're currently doing. And it has a lot to do with the right people for the right task, finding new talents, shaping a new organization now to get those things done, that's for sure. On the one hand. And on the other hand, I mean we started the discussion just briefly and I think we can make an own podcast out of that. How will AI influence our future business and future organizations? And what kind of task will be done by AI completely which are only supported whatever. Uh, there's a lot on the street to be discussed and to be somehow analyzed and validated, whether it could fit or not.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And one of the things that we've experienced before, you know, when you're getting a good head of steam, performance is great. You know, you. I certainly did it in my m only tenure as CEO, uh, of our group. I'm like, right, there's really build up the operational side of things, your infrastructure to ensure that you've got the right base to be able to continue significant growth. However, of course, if things change and market conditions change suddenly and all of a sudden you're like, oh, you're seeing some numbers that you don't like, then you have to be able to be adaptable and react in the speed to make sure that you aren't, um, making some really bad business decisions. You're not being too ambitious. One of the questions that I love to ask people, Christian, is how do you ensure it's about balance, Life is about balance. Of how do you work, non work and work? And how do you ensure that you're setting up for growth but not going too ambitious with what your growth plans could look like, how, what kind of cadence and how big is the top team that discuss such issues to make sure that you're trying to make those, get those decisions right?

Speaker A: I mean, basically on all kind of journeys, you are not able to forecast what will happen throughout that journey. Definitely. And one, uh, of my biggest learning is really just start. Just start the journey. No matter whether you have everything on the table, everything analyzed in detail, whatever, just start the journey. And I mean, sometimes, I mean, perhaps it's a typical German aspect now. Uh, I mean, we as German, somehow we try to discuss almost everything, we try to forecast almost everything. We try to find solutions somehow for the exception of the exception. They're the exception. And during that discussion, definitely we somehow lost speed. Somehow lost speed. There is another one who did the job or the opportunity is not there anymore, uh, and we lost the momentum. And if you ask me, one of the main success factors is that you just simply need to start. You simply need to start. Of course, you need to discuss some things with a group of experts, with your teams, with people you rely on, you trust on, definitely. But you need to start. Although you have not the hundred percent plan. And when your journey starts, you Will learn. You will see where to where you need to adjust the plan. You will see whether this works or not, whether there was a failure or not. It's not a problem to make mistakes. Definitely not. You will make mistakes, be aware of it. Huh? It's not your neck breaker. It will just bring you to another level of experience. But if you do not start, you will miss chances. And that is one of my main journey. It was exactly the same what we did from 2022 to 2020, uh, three. We just started. There was no real plan out of a box. Like okay, when that scenario A is that and then process B is set and that might be the best solution. Definitely. We just started. We saw, okay, there were options, there were options. Okay, that was not so good. There was simply no alternative. Okay, let's get it, let's get it done. And that's the same. Now we're still or we're currently again in a position where we just simply need to start. Nobody of us is a, uh, global entrepreneur. Nobody of us has started or whatever founded 100 companies. Nobody uh, has worked for venture capital company experience all the stuff. No, nobody. We just learn every day and that makes it so interesting. So yeah, starting, find the point to start. No excuses anymore. Just start it and bring it to the table.

Speaker B: Christian, like all my favorite guests, I love the simplicity of it and I also like that perspective. As you say, there's not a lot of people that have scaled international businesses to huge numbers. Like everyone's learning as they go. You're going to get some things right, you're going to get some things wrong, be in it together, have fun whilst you do it and then just, you know, make sure you work hard in between. Right? So I like that simplicity of it enormously. I recently read reread Jim Collins is Famous Good to great book that I was at a conference when they were talking about it. That's another book that has pure simplicity at uh, its heart and it makes sure that you stop and look at things. But one of my quick five final three questions is is there a book that you've taken some long lasting learns from that you would recommend to others?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. There's one, one book where I am a big, big fan of and that is Atomic Habits from, from James Clear and, and you can use this book for all areas of life. I mean in business life, I mean what are we doing? We set our targets, our ambitions far too high and we want everything and even better, we want everything at once. And then we'd Start the discussions, how can we reach it? Strategy, discussions, everything around it, but we simply forget to start. Make the first step, that makes another, uh, the next step, and then the third step. And then you will grow. You will grow. Perhaps not that fast, but you will grow. And on the other hand, from a private perspective, I mean, I had quite a lot of more kilograms around my body look completely different than I'm now. And then the first thing was also, let's start like politics of small steps. A smaller step is better than not to go the next step, you know, so. So that was a book, really, which inspires me a lot to see. Okay, if you just do small steps, but, um, those steps continuously, you will reach your objective. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer, and you have to be patient and persistent and whatever, but you will reach your next level for sure. And that was definitely a book which inspired me a lot and which I can highly recommend.

Speaker B: Nice. Thank you. Yes. Uh, you know what? That's another one. I think I read it a few years ago. I might wander back to that. So thank you for recommending again. Christian, this is Leadership Learns podcast. Naturally, as I say, we're across the STEM sector, so I love speaking to people from the technology world and engineering and life sciences and maths and finance. But have there been. Is there any one or two leaders, Christian, that you've followed and admire in your career?

Speaker A: I mean, the good thing is that I have, during all those different stations of my career, I had the privilege to. To get in contact with. With great leaders in different areas. So. So some of them are, of course, in the military way. And what they taught me is def. Is definitely staying calm, um, under pressure, definitely. If the situation is so weird around you, whatever, whatever you can imagine, stay calm, Stay calm. Analyze the situation. Do nothing too spontaneously. And another thing is, I mean, especially if you do those military special service trainings, I mean, they will push your body to a level of performance where you have no clue that your body is able to do those things. So whenever you see a situation or a facing situation which is so complicated, so hard, I will try to remember. Come on. I did that in different trainings. I saw that for different military leaders. They were able to do it. I'm able to do it. Come on, let's stay calm. Can't be too bad. So that was one thing. The second thing, of course, was during my business life, during my SAP time, when I made my first bigger projects for international companies, learning how to deal with politics in large organizations to get your Tasks done, uh, which was definitely there. I had two big mentors, I would even say mentors from my side who taught me that how to act in very political environments, find compromises, whatever. And, and then of course, like I love those stories of those inspiring founders, uh, having the ideas stand in for it, fight for it, whatever. But last but not least, we talked about uh, books and um, inspirational authors. I mean one of the big author which inspires me also quite a lot is Simon Sinek of course, like the, like his positive attitude to everything. That is exactly what I'm trying to somehow reflect. Being positive to everything, seeing a chance for everything, finding there will be a solution somehow. Sometimes you will not find it on the first view, but um, on the second view if you just have a little patience. So those, I would say they are the biggest thing. I can't say, okay, that was the one who influenced me m. The most or that was the one I can still remember. I think the mixture of those different leaders I had the privilege to meet in, in the different areas, the mixture out of it is something, what, what still inspires me a lot and where I learned a lot from.

Speaker B: Lovely. We, we've got our 10 daily habits, uh, internally called the X4 way. And one of them is possib. Uh, positivity breeds possibility, Christian. So I agree with that, I agree with that enormously. And the other one that I agree with hugely. And we had a quarterly all hands meeting last week and I said, and uh, I say it continually, I believe in it so much that if the newest person out of university to me in my role, if everyone is hungry to get better and develop every single day, we'll have a great chance of achieving something great together. How have you gone about self development over the years, Christian, to ensure that you keep improving? Because one of the things that keeps coming up with some of the individuals that have created huge businesses over the years is that a few of them become, they went through a coaching qualification to ensure that they could help their leaders develop and help their uh, key reports develop in the way that they wanted them to. Has there been any key method, methodology for how you develop so far?

Speaker A: Actually it's also one of those positive mindset philosophy. I mean, I mean sometimes as a person you need, somehow you need to have some crisis, some individual crisis and then you can grow out of those crisis. That was the same with me. There was an individual personal crisis years, uh, ago, years ago, luckily years ago. But from that point on I, I saw the word in different eyes. I saw. Okay, there is a new day, there is a new chance. I don't know how the day will end, but there is a new chance there. So let's be positive for it. Be optimistic. There will be something out for you every day. That's the first thing, of course, during that journey. The second thing is, okay, if you, if curiosity goes down with you, you start to stop. So be curious, be curious the whole day. Never stop learning somehow. Be open to new things, be open to new people. That's definitely second big foundation for me. Yeah. And then the third one, I mean, we talked about it already, is just the mindset of just get it started, get it started. Um, make opportunity out of the unknown on that journey and then start this transformation. And most likely transformation will never end. And that's a good thing because once you have done something, there's something new around the corner which can be experienced and that makes it so great. So those are the things I would say where I build up my self development.

Speaker B: Awesome. Christian, thank you so much for joining me on the Leadership Learns podcast. I've really enjoyed exploring the pivotal moments from your journey at logistics and the bold changes initiated in 22, and all of the leadership lessons that came from navigating that transformation. Thank you everyone for listening. If you enjoyed that episode, please give a five star rating and do share with others in your network. Christian, thanks once again for coming on.

Speaker A: Peter. You're welcome. Um, thank you. Also from my side, Sam m.