#367: Scaling a Law Firm Together: Hiring and Delegation with Bobby & Abby Botnick

Bobby Botnick: It is making my life easier because some of the conversations that we would have aren't happening as often now. But what it's also doing is just the level of stress that's decreasing. We've come to recognize that I can be the bottleneck.

Abby Botnick: Well, I think she's increased our chances of success at a long term marriage. That alone is worth whatever we're paying her. It was becoming to the point where I was starting to grow some resentment. That's a recipe for disaster.

Bobby Botnick: Who am I right to have an assistant? But now realizing, like, just how badly I did need one.

Melissa Shanahan: Welcome to the Law Firm Owner Podcast. Powered by Velocity. Work for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Bobby Botnick: Me.

Melissa Shanahan: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Law Firm Owner Podcast. We have two incredible guests with us today, Bobby and Abby Botnik. Thank you so much for being here.

Bobby Botnick: Thanks for having us, Melissa.

Abby Botnick: Yeah, definitely.

Melissa Shanahan: I mean, it's about time. Although you did come on in 2023.

Bobby Botnick: It feels like a lifetime ago, but yes. Yeah. So it's real nice to be back.

Melissa Shanahan: A lot has changed as we will dig in. Bobby and Abby have been clients since June of 2021, I think, and you were in our, uh, groups. And then last year you decided to continue working with us in a more private capacity. And so that's what we're doing now.

Bobby Botnick: It's real exciting and it's real fun when I get to, like, look back and see where I started out as, you know, just getting started and why I thought I might need a coach, and then where we are today, it's really great. And absolutely, when it was just me, but now having Abby being a part of things, seeing how the two of us are really able to work together with you, to really see all the different things that need to be done and get to be done with the firm.

Melissa Shanahan: I guess we should start with where you are and what you do, and then I can give a little more color about working with two of you from there.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah, sure.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay.

Bobby Botnick: Um, so we have a criminal defense practice in Cleveland, Ohio. We serve clients throughout Northeast Ohio. That means representing clients on felonies, misdemeanors, DUIs, traffic offenses, expungements. I started the practice about 14 years ago, and I was a true solo until about five years ago when Gabby joined me.

Melissa Shanahan: That's right. You both are lawyers.

Abby Botnick: Yes.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. So that's. But you just you weren't a part of his practice until later, right?

Abby Botnick: That's right. So for the first 16 years of my career, I did plaintiffs malpractice, nursing home abuse cases all over the state of Ohio. And during COVID like, a lot of people just reflected on what I was doing, what my drive was, and what I was interested. And Bobby needed help. And, um, that's it.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Abby Botnick: Joined him then.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. And what a powerhouse the two of you are. I think it's so cool that you guys joined forces.

Abby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. I've gotten to see some evolution over time of your firm, which naturally means of you. And I'm excited to talk about it today because you guys have had a pretty incredible growth arc. And, uh, that has not come without its challenges.

Bobby Botnick: Sure.

Melissa Shanahan: And the reason, you know, even right now, you're in some challenges right now. But I think that's so great to just keep it real and talk about that, because people tend to think that their problems are gonna go away for the most part. Maybe no one says that out loud, but they just think, if I could just get there, then we'll be good. And I think you guys have lived through enough to know that actually isn't what happens. It morphs, it changes, but that's not exactly what happens. So, I mean, I don't know, off the top, if you just wanna speak to that or reflections on that.

Bobby Botnick: Well, I mean, I could tell you when I started working with you, like, it was just me. I had an office, but it wasn't like I was running a firm. It had my name on it. That was about it. And then really sitting down. And then once Abby joined me and we started growing, now we're running a business and to see that growth, because now it's not just a matter of, can I pay the bills? It's about, we have personnel, we have staff, we've had attorneys. There's so many different things. Vendors. Right. All these other things that now we really have to think about. And so it's not just about, you know, huh, how many clients do we have? And, you know, what's going to be the revenue from it? But it's what we're able to do for ourselves with the work that we're doing. Does it align with what our goals are? And then also just knowing that we're also now helping others, and we have to make sure that what we're doing, we're also able to provide for our. For our staff. So it's been really awesome just. Just seeing that growth.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Abby Botnick: I mean, I think the saying more money, more problems is a saying for a reason. With, uh, the increase in the sophistication of how we operate our business, how we think of it as a business goal setting and then working to achieve those goals, not only does it come with significantly more work and pressure, but it also comes with an added, just even sometimes a fear about, how are we going to keep this going? How are we going to get to the next step, knowing what it took to get from A to C, how am I going to now get all the way to Z? So I think that's a challenge that comes with, we met some goals. We're very excited about those. We want to meet more goals in the future. But just knowing what it took to get there and now thinking ahead and like, okay, now how do we get to the next point?

Melissa Shanahan: People are a big deal in getting to the next point. Right. And growing the firm from a people perspective. And you guys have had so many lessons learned when it comes to hiring and firing. I thought we would start there, if that's okay with you guys. When the last time you were on the podcast, you had an assistant who's still with you.

Bobby Botnick: She's still with us.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. And you had. Come on. So it's kind of the three of you, uh, handling things, and you wanted to grow, so it wasn't all on you, and you wanted to be able to spread responsibility among others. So over the years, you've hired a few attorneys. I don't know how many off the top of my head.

Abby Botnick: Five.

Melissa Shanahan: Five total. Okay. Meaning, like, some of they've come in and come out.

Abby Botnick: Correct.

Melissa Shanahan: Right. So there's lots of lessons there, I'm sure. Also a paralegal who's come in and come out, and now you have an, uh, a new paralegal that's replaced that person. So, anyway, I guess what I'm saying is you've had a lot of transition, which is natural, I think people think that they're gonna find somebody and then it's just gonna be their person, and they just hope. And it's like, um, that was definitely us.

Bobby Botnick: I mean, we. It was definitely that goal of, like, yes, we hired somebody. And now, great. And the reality is that, you know, especially people who are looking to work, they're not necessarily thinking, sweet, I've gotten my job for the next 30 years. Right. And so it's what works for them in the moment. And sometimes, you know, the, the, the winds change and they're onto something different. And sometimes it's also, you Know, everything looks nice at the beginning, and then you just realize in working with each other that it's not the right fit.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Um, so we've definitely had a lot of kissing, uh, frogs, I'd say. And some have really been great and others, you know, not so much. But I do think that that's one of those hard things that, uh, now that you're running a business, that's something that, you know, you definitely aren't trained for in law school. That's been a tough thing to be able to go through, but I feel so much better now having gone through that. It gives us a better idea of, you know, what it is that we're looking for, you know, what are our non negotiables as we're hiring. Uh, so that's been, that's been really. Yeah, really good.

Abby Botnick: Yeah. I mean, I think when we started our hiring journey, we, we really had no clue how to do that. I don't even know that we had a very clear sense of what we wanted people to do. We just knew we needed help and we knew that if we were going to reach our goals, there weren't enough hours in the day for us to do that with the way we were operating. So I think one of the ways we've really learned over the last few years, not only in, yes, trial and error and coming to recognize when things aren't a fit sooner, getting a clearer sense of what it is we need, and having a real understanding that our desire is to bring on people so that we can reach the next goal. Because once again, we're at a point where we can't get to the next step with the compliment we have because there just aren't enough hours in a day. And so I think becoming, as we've learned, just coming to understand how to envision a role, how to set the expectations for the role, how to communicate those to the candidates so that people can select out if that's not for them. And then really being able to hone in on making good selections and then making, making hard choices quickly when it turns out not to be a good fit.

Melissa Shanahan: If you don't mind, maybe share like everybody, when you first start hiring, you put an ad out that, looking back on your ad, I could say this for, for us too, looking back on your ads that you first would put out, you know, five years ago or four years ago, they weren't the greatest. Right? Like, they don't, they don't attract people that you actually want to keep or, uh, to have in your Firm. But you didn't think about that. You're just putting out an ad, like, who wants a job? We need bodies.

Bobby Botnick: That's pretty much it. And I remember that very first ad, and we got so many applicants, so we weren't using AI for instance, uh, you know, sort through things. You were looking through every single one. And if it even just sounded like it could be, okay, let's get them scheduled for an interview, let's review everything. Let's block off the calendar and all that stuff. And how many people, like, actually never even showed up for the phone call or called back? I mean, like, just like the waste of time and just, you know, it's like, these are not the right people. Why do we keep getting these people? And it's like they're. They don't have the skills, they don't have the history. They're not in the right state. Yeah, I mean, things like that. And I think we've just gotten more sophisticated with putting in those. Those ads. Exactly what it is that we're looking for, who we want, applying for that position.

Abby Botnick: Right. I think. But there was sort of an in between phase. Right. So we started with, you know, the baby job ad, which was like, what do I think makes sense? Put it out there. Sounds good. Then we started really doing a lot more work internally and developing core values and having more of a sense of what our systems are. So our sort of next generation of job ad, uh, it was a little bit, maybe too earnest. It was focused a lot on our values. Like, we love it here. You can love it, too, and come be a part of this and stay forever. But it really wasn't looking back. It was really not clear about what was going to be expected of that person. It's one thing to talk about core values, but everyone loves to hear the words teamwork and responsibility and things like that. But what does that mean? That was missing? And so I think people were coming and saying, oh, this sounds like a good vibe, but you can't make it run on vibes. So we really had to get clear about the expectations for the role. And to do that, we had to really understand ourselves, what we wanted.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, you were saying before we recorded, you were mentioning that you didn't really think through or know what you needed with specificity because you hadn't had it before. And so, you know, hiring an attorney was like, I don't know, help. Like, help do the legal work. Um, but now there were really specific things that you learned after you hired your first attorney on what you need them to do versus what Bobby is expected to do. Or maybe you're also expected to do those things and you can name them with specificity. But. So I don't know if you're willing to share like, what pops in your head about specificity.

Bobby Botnick: First thing that comes to my mind, it's like, you know, the lawyer is going to have to do consultations. It's expected. You're going to talk to a prospective client. You're going to be available whether it's during the day or, you know, you know, you know, evenings, weekends, something like that. Because especially for our practice, things happen 24 7. Somebody gets arrested on a Friday night, they don't want to wait until Monday morning. They might want to talk with somebody right now. And just having somebody available to do the consultation. So if you're going to interview a candidate and you come to find out after they're hired, I don't feel comfortable doing the consultation.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Oh, yeah, that was, that was. I was really hoping to be able to take that off my plate. I could share, I could delegate it.

Melissa Shanahan: Right.

Bobby Botnick: Um.

Melissa Shanahan: Right.

Bobby Botnick: So we've definitely learned about that.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Now it's like a flashback. I remember that person, I remember that attorney. But then there was another instance where the person didn't want to like after 4:30 or whatever done, like, didn't want to consider Saturdays, didn't want to consider evenings. Which then again puts that back on your plate.

Abby Botnick: Right.

Melissa Shanahan: So you're more explicit now, I guess, with, with how you talk to candidates.

Abby Botnick: We absolutely are. And that, that starts with the job posting itself is now we're very clear on those issues. And, um, I would rather somebo select out early, then bring them on and we're six months a year, two years in, and they say, you know what? I really don't see the benefit in me doing anything on the weekends. So I don't really think I want to do that anymore.

Melissa Shanahan: Benefit for them.

Abby Botnick: For them.

Melissa Shanahan: For them. Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay.

Bobby Botnick: Salary and um, bonuses and things like that. Right. That, that would be. But, you know, um, not everybody's able to see it that way.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: And doesn't mean that they're a bad lawyer. Right. It just means that maybe they're not the right candidate for this role.

Melissa Shanahan: So I know you guys have gotten a lot more organized about hiring now, and so we're talking about the ad. You're getting more specific about what this job is going to entail and you're pretty clear about what this job entails at this point. I mean, Part of that, I'm just thinking about people that don't have the reps that you guys have with hiring, and they don't know yet what you guys didn't know. So going back, I guess, what advice would you give yourself? Because some of it was inevitable. You weren't going to know till then, you know. But if you were going to give yourself some level of advice a little earlier in the hiring game, what would you offer?

Bobby Botnick: I think a big one is you can't rely on what the suggestion is like for whatever that, uh, the job post, you know. So if you're using a platform, um, let's say Indeed, for instance, indeed says this is the ad you should use. You're going to have the same ad as everybody else, and you're not going to find a way to really, like, distinguish what it is that you're looking for and what this job is. And so you really have to spend that time getting to know who you are and what the practice is and what that's going to entail. And that means you have to be thoughtful, you have to spend some time, you have to go through drafts, you know, running it by somebody else to say, you know, am I missing something? You know, what would you, what would you include? I mean, you can always use AI as a partner. That's true, but I think also you

Melissa Shanahan: didn't have that back then.

Bobby Botnick: Definitely not. Definitely not.

Abby Botnick: I think if I could go back and tell myself when we were posting those initial jobs, I would say make a list of all the things that if you could take them off your plate, how would that improve your life? Or even if you could take part of the job off your plate, sharing consultations, make a list of what you really want this person to do, top to bottom. And if ultimately they join you and it takes time, they're not going to get all those responsibilities off the bat, maybe, but it's going to take time. But you've already set that expectation. You've made it clear from the beginning. Because I think part of our issue was we're hiring in the midst of developing our systems, so we didn't really even understand how our firm was operating yet. And so as people came on, their role sort of morphed over time, and it's usually always going to get more complicated. They're going to get more tasks added on. So I would just, I would have told myself, stop and make a list of everything you think you maybe want them to do, even if you're the only one doing it right now. And put that in there.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. So it gives you flexibility to add it because it was stated at the beginning, right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so we talked about the posting. I'm just wondering in your process, can you give us kind of high level what the process you're using now is because you're hiring two attorneys right now. So what are the steps that you have built in even just high level, beyond the ad?

Bobby Botnick: Once we post, we have that applicant, we try to find the time when we can do a 15 minute phone call.

Melissa Shanahan: Uh, okay, so like a screen call.

Bobby Botnick: So we're doing the screening call.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay.

Bobby Botnick: And right now I'm the one who's doing the screening. That's also part of, you know, still developing things.

Abby Botnick: But we do use like a granola. We use a, uh, AI to sort of create a transcript or a recording of it, which we then use later to feed into back in to sort of give us an overview of this candidate. Give us the, the red flags or the green flags.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Right.

Melissa Shanahan: That's great.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah. So when we do we have that sit down in the office. They come in, they get to meet the team we already have what to look out for the red flag if they say this and what should we learn more about? So that's been really helpful, having that to kind of give us the assist.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Abby Botnick: We've also worked with Align to develop our, uh, core values for our firm. And as part of that, they've helped us put together an interview guide that really comes up with questions that utilize our core values that would give us signals positive and not so positive for any candidate we're interviewing. So we sort of have two complementing sets of guidelines. One is more skills based or red flags based. One's more. How would they fit culturally with our values that we'll have going into our in person interview?

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay. That's great. You don't have to do a video beforehand, Right.

Abby Botnick: We haven't started that yet. As far as we've gotten right now, it's just been like a writing sample.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Abby Botnick: Is the only other thing we might ask for.

Melissa Shanahan: That's nice.

Abby Botnick: Um, because it's important for us to know that whoever we're gonna hire can come in and write a real brief. Not just a little piddly thing, but a real motion to suppress. Uh, heavy hitting motions.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Very cool. Okay. So then you mentioned a line. That's Tara Granov for listeners, um, and viewers. She's amazing. We're all fans of her. So one thing that came to mind with you guys is that you have invested in leadership training, and she offers that. And so you guys have worked with her to develop your skill sets as leaders in the firm. And the reason that this comes to mind to bring up is because the next thing that I, uh, want to talk to you guys about is firing. And when firing is necessary, you also have come a long way where you are quicker to do it than, like, appropriately quicker to do it than you used to be. And also, you're smarter about it. You really do put in the work. You guys make sure. Uh, I'm looking at Abby mostly because I'm. It feels like this has kind of been your lane. Although I'm sorry if I'm leaving you out and I shouldn't.

Bobby Botnick: It's okay.

Melissa Shanahan: Um, that you have really. You've developed yourself to make sure that you are having the right conversations to get someone on track or to ask the right questions so that you can get a sense of, like, what's going on here. Like, I'm not. I don't want to mess with this longer than we have to mess with this. So if I can help, I want to help. I want to give the tools that are needed. And we're not going to sit on this. We're going to make a call, uh, fairly soon. So I don't know if you want to speak to that, because most people do hang on to people entirely too long or they're too quick without looking at themselves in the mirror.

Abby Botnick: Yeah. Uh, working with Tara has been invaluable in helping me to see where I can improve as a leader. And one of the things I've come to learn about myself is that my gut instinct is usually pretty accurate pretty early. But having said that, I think it's important to understand. Are you having issues with this employee because they don't really understand the expectations? Maybe you have expectations in your mind that you have not made clear to them. So you're feeling frustrated because they're not meeting the role, but maybe they don't really understand the role. So having the ability at. To sort of be humble about that self, reflect on that, and instead of making it their problem at the first jump, think about, where could I do better? And circling back on that first. But I think you come to a point, and, you know, I feel when you get there, probably in your gut, maybe sooner than you're willing to make the choice, but you do come to a point where you realize, I've been clear. I've coached them. The issues are persisting this is either they're not able to do this, or they don't want to do this. And so that's when you really know we've reached the end of the road.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. I hope. Are you proud of yourself? Well, actually, I do know that you're proud of yourselves. Cause we had this conversation at your last retreat, talking about lessons learned and accomplishments. Like, you really made the right call, and you made the right call quickly, you know?

Abby Botnick: Yes. And I mean, I think earlier on, when I first joined Bobby, I did not have that leadership foundation. So I was really working off of just extremely raw strengths. I have a lot of strengths, but I was using them all in a way that kind of made things feel. I was frustrating myself. I was probably frustrating the team. I think the office culture was not as good as it could have been, and I take a lot of the blame for that. But through investing in myself, I feel like now we have a blueprint for not only an amazing culture, but a way to navigate finding out whether someone we've brought on is actually a good fit or not.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Also, it does. It strikes me that the two of you are probably at the stage. I didn't ask you this before we recorded, and I don't think I've asked you this at a retreat, but it's just kind of part of the deal. If you're a business owner, you're going to cycle through people, and you try to minimize that. That's the goal. But it's a part of having your own business, you know? And so I wonder, does it feel less dramatic even though, you know, listen, right now you guys are in a crunchy period. Um, you. You are. But does it feel less dramatic that, like, you have the steps that, you know, how to get yourself back out there to find, you know, the best candidates you can find. So I'm just wondering if it feels different now when people do cycle out and in. Um, because onboarding is a thing, too.

Bobby Botnick: I mean, I would say, you know, yes, it's a business, but it's personal. And so understanding that when somebody's now deciding, you know, this isn't what, you know, brings them joy. Right. That's not a personal thing. You know, and certainly at the very beginning, it's like, what's wrong with them? Right. We're great. Right. We know it. And it wasn't an us thing. It had absolutely nothing to do with us. It was just other people's goals, but they're looking for in life. And I think just. Just kind of understanding that.

Melissa Shanahan: So what you mean by personal is. For them, it's personal. Not. You don't take it personally. That's not what you meant.

Bobby Botnick: I would have back then. I did. But now just understanding that it's not because we've created an uncomfortable workplace. You know, I think we do have a great culture. And, you know, we even started a culture committee earlier this year to. To really find ways to, you know, be able to enjoy each other. You know, people enjoy working in our office, but, you know, you can enjoy the work, but if that's not what you want to be doing. Oh, okay. That's. That's for them. That's that their personal choice. I can't take that personally.

Melissa Shanahan: Right.

Bobby Botnick: Because it's. We are running a business.

Melissa Shanahan: Right.

Bobby Botnick: And so I think that that also helps. Just like with time, we're now understanding that these are also business decisions and how, you know, when we make that hire, you're not hiring somebody who's going to be there for years, decades, whatever it might be. And it probably doesn't help. You know, we have frame of reference from Abby's old, uh, position, you know, at her old firm, where people were there for extended periods of time. You know, I watched a family business where employees were there for years, decades. And so you kind of have that mindset of it's supposed to be that way. Maybe it worked for those models, but that's not necessarily what's here today. And we also understand it just with different generations of people. Sometimes people say, you know, I'm onto the next one, and we can't take that personally.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, it's difficult.

Bobby Botnick: No doubt.

Melissa Shanahan: The two companies you just mentioned, one which is a family business, the way that they were decided to run their business is very diff. You guys are having, uh, a different approach to running this. Then you have different goals than maybe what they had. And maybe I'm wrong about that.

Bobby Botnick: And I don't think you're wrong at all. I mean, I spent a lot of time watching the family business, and now it's helped me to see what works and what does not work. And that's where we needed help. We needed professional guidance and like, setting goals. Yeah, right. That was a big thing.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Um, I had no goals before.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: But now, you know, we have shared goals. And it's not just goals for us, but also, like, what do we want to see for our, uh, people? That's really cool. But, yeah, we have to find that ourselves. You can't just say, well, if it worked for them, it should Work for us. That's not the case.

Melissa Shanahan: Coming off of the conversation of goals. And I know goals, isn't it? But maybe you can give listeners who they don't really know us very well. Why do you work with Velocity work? Why did you. And now why do you.

Bobby Botnick: Business took off during COVID and all that I knew was there was a certain way I was working, I had revenue, and now things had taken off where I just was not prepared. And I knew that I did not have the skills, I did not have the insight to figure out, uh, what was I supposed to do. And so that's when I went looking for help. And after, you know, interviewing with a couple of different folks, you know, you were part of that. And so, you know, talking with you and just seeing, you know, how you communicate and the right level of you're not somebody who is cracking the whip, but you're also able to really hold people accountable. I remember this one time where, you know, I was setting a rock for myself and you said, no, you could do that in the next 10 minutes. Go take your 10 minutes and do your rock and then we'll find something else. And like that was perfect because you called me out on it. I was just trying to give myself an easy layup and that you weren't having that. So that was really perfect. And what's really cool too is seeing how you have different clients who are at different points in their careers. And it is not cookie cutter. You just have so many different skills and willing to be able to sit down, break things down and really figuring out what's going to work for you. And I love it. And you know, early on I knew that I wanted to have like some form of like the personal coaching. And as Velocity work has kind of, you know, morphed over the years from Mastery Group, uh, to Syndicate and where we are today, this is exactly where I was hoping to see things go. And so I love it. And now being able to have Abby, you know, bringing her into the loop so it wasn't just me being able to like convey, like, here's what we talked about, but now she's part of that decision making process.

Melissa Shanahan: So cool to have the both of you there. It like rounds everything out in a way that you guys can pick up speed differently.

Bobby Botnick: I mean, she's a systems person. I mean, you know, uh, like I was just doing everything all by myself before and then to be able to sit down and, you know, Abby really asking the questions of why, why do you do it that way? Why does the court do it that way, whatever it might have been, and then really just starting to break things out? And that just started off with, like, handling a traffic ticket, um, but then really expanding from there. Um, and it's like, okay, well, we need help with all this other stuff. And that's. That's where Velocity came in.

Melissa Shanahan: I don't know if you have any thoughts.

Abby Botnick: Yeah, I mean, one of the things. So Bobby, uh, always used to share, you know, he's in Mastery Group, and they're. They're doing this and facts, not feelings. And, like, it was sort of just. It was a concept to me, but I didn't really understand. But then sitting and meeting with you, and it felt like you knew our business, like you could see things that we weren't even seeing. Having an outside perspective to say. Have you thought about this? You mentioned this? I wonder if this might work. Something we just did not have a skill set for. And it's been. I mean, it's been life changing. It's been business changing. It's just been such an amazing, you know, work to be doing with you. And, of course, we're appreciative of everything.

Melissa Shanahan: First of all, some of the things you shared that we really work hard to. To do, like to meet you where you are. And I think that does come across to clients, but it's hard to imagine that. I think, from an outsider's perspective that you could do that. I don't know. I think we run ourselves differently. We have your data, we understand your data. We are connected to it. The way we have learned to, like, hold or store information so that we can easily access. Like, what were your focuses? What were your lessons learned? What were the barriers? We just stay. We found a way to really just stay in tune with the client. And that matters to me because it's not a blueprint. And I think if I were to build a company that gives a blueprint, people might see some level of success, but, like, not near to what they could.

Bobby Botnick: Well, and I'll say near. You don't say all, uh, Right. You need to be doing this or you should be doing this. Yeah, there isn't anything like that. It's what do we want?

Melissa Shanahan: Right.

Bobby Botnick: You know, because my. The goals for. For our family and for our firm, it's going to be different from somebody else. Yes, totally.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: And, you know, I don't need to, you know, have a nationwide practice or anything like that. I don't have to have every case. But, you know, what we want for ourselves and Trying to figure out, where do we see ourselves five years down the road, 10 years down the road, how are we going to get there? And developing that plan that's unique to us. And so that's something that we've been able to do. And that's something that I appreciate because, yeah, you could easily just say, all right, I'm going to pay for a course and see what I get out of this. And I got a bunch of videos and maybe that's it. Um, but here we're actually, like, working together. And, you know, I know that when we're talking, you're able to, like, you're thinking about past conversations or looking at notes, whatever it is, and having that data that's. That's so important. It's a lot of work on our end to be able to provide it, but once you're able to sit and review it, manipulate it, all those different things, you know, trying to figure out which levers need to be pulled to see, you know, how we're going to achieve those different goals.

Melissa Shanahan: One thing, see what you think about it. It's a lot of work to provide it. Do you mean historically or you mean like month over month, like the. Getting the historical data in that we're asking for, or just every month? It's hard. There's not a wrong answer.

Bobby Botnick: No, I think once you have the, uh, the habit providing it on the monthly. But I'll tell you, it's also when you don't have case management software, you don't have a good bookkeeping, and now you're trying to figure out all these different things. Like, one of the first questions from you is, you know, you have to know your numbers. What are your numbers? It's like, oh, now I have to go back and I have to try and look at this. I have to try and look at that. So part of being organized was you have to have a system to at least organize your practice. And so once you're able to start pulling figures out of there and then sharing, I mean, that's. That's been really helpful. So having like, the right bookkeeper for that, to have those, to be able to share that information, but then also being able to look at, like, our case numbers in the leads and things along those lines, then to be able to start being able to process those and the different kinds of cases and things like that.

Melissa Shanahan: And you do have a unique journey with us because you started in the groups. Because I don't help you get your stuff and I don't build you Something special. Now we don't do groups anymore, so it's really only one on one. So we build your sheets. We build. So it's a little easier to get it in, but it's not easy. And the thing I was going to say is like, I don't want to sugarcoat it and be like, you know, you just have to get your data. No, sometimes that's hard to do. And. But what I was going to say was, it's not for us, it's for you.

Bobby Botnick: Exactly.

Melissa Shanahan: So you should be doing it anyway. But most people don't have the time or the bandwidth to kind of get themselves in order to do it. So even though it's a, it's a lift, we don't leave people hanging and we're just getting you to do the thing you should do anyway.

Bobby Botnick: One of the things that I observed for, for like, uh, in mastery group in the olden days was like, right, some people would sign up and they're thinking, now this is a cure. And not realizing, like, no, you actually have to put in that work. You have to say if you're going to set that goal for yourself, you're committed to that. And so same thing here. Understanding, like, what's going to come out of that data when we're able to take a look at it and see it on a graph, like, wow, okay. It's all right there. Well, yeah, the only way that we're going to see that, we have to be able to put that in. And so if somebody doesn't want to do that work. Okay, that's fine. Then it's probably not going to be for them, but for us who do want to see that, you know, I mean, the, the, the data that we get back from that. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's huge.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, it's a big deal.

Bobby Botnick: Oh, yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: I have no idea how people coach without data because that's just like the. I don't know. I have that bone in my body where it's not complete. It, uh, there's a completionist thing I have, I think. But yeah, like, what are you talking about? And also, if you don't have rocks. So anyway, I think it's just the way my brain works and, and how I end up working with people. And you guys are so fun to work with. I mean, I feel like. I feel very blessed. All of our fortunate. I mean, we worked hard for it, but all of our clients are cool. Like, they all have a sense of humor to some degree, and they all are like, Willing to work at their own firms and put in the work. And, you know, every once in a while you have a consult with someone. It's like, no, they don't have it. They don't have that thing, you know, it's just different.

Bobby Botnick: Well, I mean, I'll tell you. And just like the different iterations, when you get to meet some of the, uh, other business, uh, owners.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: You know, you get along. I mean, you know, I mean, there aren't necessarily, like conflicting personalities. It's like people are there for the same shared purpose, you know, that there's. There must have been something.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: And, you know, you're able to. To kind of, you know, find that in each other.

Abby Botnick: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: And I think that that's. That's really great. I mean, it really is a. This community.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: That, you know, gets, um, developed.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Yeah. Ah, I love our community. I feel like it's. In some ways, it's like they all beat to their own drum. They all. What's the saying? I didn't say that. Right.

Abby Botnick: But you know what I mean.

Bobby Botnick: March to the speed of beat of their own drum.

Abby Botnick: That's.

Melissa Shanahan: That feels true about all of our clients. And I don't know that that's true for every law firm owner. So I really like that you guys get to connect and. And those are the best people to work with.

Abby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, Absolutely. Okay. Well, we were talking about. We talked about hiring. We talked about firing. You guys have a whole new level of experience with that. Would you say you're pros?

Abby Botnick: Oh, my gosh, probably not.

Bobby Botnick: She's novice.

Abby Botnick: We are not pros. But we are miles ahead from where we started. And I'll take that any day.

Melissa Shanahan: Another thing that I wanted to talk to you guys about. One recent hire you made was an executive assistant for you.

Bobby Botnick: Yes.

Melissa Shanahan: And how it's just been a short amount of time, but you guys are saying, like, game changing. Do you think it's. Of course it's the person which, because of your hiring methods, you find higher quality people. Right. But what was like, how did you know you were ready for that hire? Because you. You do have an assistant in the firm, but she's more of a legal assistant. Is that right?

Bobby Botnick: The legal assistant for the firm. Right. So she's been with us now about four years. Hm. And, you know, when we started smaller and it was just the three of us, you know, me, Abby and our assistant, you know, there wasn't as much to handle. And now that we've grown with multiple attorneys and staff, you know, she really is a center hub. But to now have her handling all those things for me, it's just. It's too much. And that's when you can see that there might be things that get missed at the same time. You know, Abby being in the office right next door to mine, we really want to be able to find the way to, uh, maintain our marriage.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, we're going there next. Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah. But a big part of it is, you know, when I'm in court and I'm on the road and all those different things, there are a lot of things that I need to be doing. I am not organized enough, you know, living within the firm's systems to be able to do everything effectively and as quickly as possible. Um, and so that's where we said, you know, we really need to bring somebody on, because there was a lot that Abby was doing that she did not need to be doing and to take those. Those responsibilities off of her plate.

Melissa Shanahan: So it's really kind of freed you both up in some ways. Yes.

Abby Botnick: Ah. And I actually just said to her, you're changing my life, because that's really how it feels. This has been probably the most impactful hire I think we've had yet.

Melissa Shanahan: That's amazing.

Abby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Do you think so? Actually, I didn't think about that. I'm thinking it's making your life easier, but it's making your life easier.

Bobby Botnick: Oh.

Melissa Shanahan: Oh.

Bobby Botnick: So.

Abby Botnick: So much.

Melissa Shanahan: So is it making your life easier, too, or you don't feel a difference? Because she was doing that stuff.

Bobby Botnick: So I'm. I'm. No biggie. It is making my life easier because some of the conversations that we would have aren't happening as often now. But what it's also doing is just the level of stress. I. I mean, you know, that's decreasing. And so knowing, like. Like, for instance, I. I have, like, um, a backlog. Old tasks that need. Just need to be taken care of, whatever they might be. And so, you know, you might just move it out a week and another week and another week or something along those lines. Well, now I have somebody whose job, at least at this point, is dedicated to clearing out that backlog. You know, we've come to recognize that I can be the bottleneck, and I want to be a bottleneck destroyer.

Abby Botnick: Yes.

Bobby Botnick: And so what she's able to do is to actually look at every single one of those tasks and plot it out exactly where it needs to be during the day or the weekend. So that way we can put in the notes, we can close those things. Out and we can move on. And so what happens is every day Abby sits down at the computer and she sees the task list and what's, uh, an overdue task. And those have been really long and stressful seeing all those overdues that were waiting on me. Yeah. And so now that I have my dedicated assistant, she's going through and she's potting it out and, you know, she's pretty much said, by this date in July, you will have no backlog.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay, cool.

Bobby Botnick: Uh, I wasn't allowed to read a book or sleep on the plane flying out to Colorado. I had my tasks set out for him.

Melissa Shanahan: Oh, that's so great. And it's, uh, not you telling him to do it.

Bobby Botnick: It's not Abby. And that, that, that task list has now shrunk by hundreds.

Abby Botnick: Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: Wow.

Bobby Botnick: Um, and just seeing that, I remember the first time that I saw how it had decreased and I actually started to like, water up a little bit because I'm thinking to myself, just like, how impactful that was for us and that was really huge. So. And, uh, we haven't even got into the other stuff yet that she's going to be able to help me out with. But once all those things get cleared up now, it also frees up my mind to start thinking about all those other things. And so now when I do have an idea, I'm able to like run it by her and say, not yet, but these are the things that I'm thinking about. That's really helpful.

Melissa Shanahan: That's great. Uh, okay. What do you want to say about how she's changed your world?

Abby Botnick: Well, I think she's increased our chances of success at a long term marriage. That alone is worth whatever we're paying her. It was becoming to the point where I was starting to grow some resentment. Bobby's a very caring person. He's a very excellent lawyer. I trust him to go into any courtroom and handle whatever business awaits him. Having said that, he has a lot on his plate and he was having a difficult time organizing himself around the tasks, the day to days, the little silly, piddly things that are important but can be easily sort of shoved off for another day. Where it got to the point where even, you know, 10 o' clock at night, something pops into my mind and all of a sudden I'm getting upset with him out of the blue about this one thing that's been kicking around forever. Um, and I knew that that was not going to be. That's a recipe for disaster. And so having someone now Come in. I can remove myself from that. And she's actually been so great that I. Even in just the short period of time she's been with us, I feel like I can trust handing that off. And someone's gonna be diligent in keeping an eye and keeping on top of coming up with a plan for him, um, because it wasn't working and I had my own workload, so I couldn't dedicate as much time as she's able to dedicate in actually coming up with a plan for him to do everything. All I could do was sort of bug him about it endlessly. So it has been just freeing. Freeing.

Melissa Shanahan: That is great. I can't wait to see what else you do with her or what she does for you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I felt like bringing that because, you know, when you think about the right time to hire an assistant like, that. Is there part of you that now that you've done it, do you wish you would have done it sooner?

Abby Botnick: Yes, 100%.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay.

Abby Botnick: Yeah. I wish we had realized Bobby's difficulties in managing his workload wasn't something we were just going to be able to nudge him out of. I wish we had realized that sooner.

Bobby Botnick: And I can also tell you, personally, I thought, uh, having my own assistant, like, who am I?

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, right.

Bobby Botnick: To have an assistant. Right. And, and when you realize it's like, well, you're actually running a business and you're here, there, everywhere, you cannot be doing everything. You need somebody to provide you with that. And I wish that I had, um. I don't know if it was just like a, like the, the sense of modesty or something like that. Like, you know, I was too humble. Like, not. I, I felt like I was too humble that I wasn't deserving of an assistant, but now realizing, like, just how badly I did need one. And, you know, she's in person. She's not virtual. And I think that there's a question of which one do you go with? But, um, I think it was. It was the right person at the right time. And yeah, she's. She's been great. Definitely should have been done. Able to do it sooner.

Melissa Shanahan: But, yeah, I, I, There's. There's a lot of resistance generally, either people are not resistant. Resistant at all and want to do it, but most have hesitancy to make that hire. And, man, there's never a regret once you get them in all the time. I hear people say, what would I have them do? Even, you know, firms that have bigger teams than, Than you do, but they're still used to. It's like, buy back your time. Have you guys have read buy back your time? That mentality, like, it doesn't necessarily even matter how experienced you are as a business owner. If you have the mentality of, like, what would I hand them? You know, just. You're kind of locked up by that.

Bobby Botnick: Oh, I could tell you. I. I've been rereading it.

Melissa Shanahan: Oh, good.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah. So I can go through and I can figure out what. What are all those other things that I can delegate that I haven't yet.

Melissa Shanahan: Good for you guys. I'm super, super pumped for you. Let's talk about married and being partners. Some of it you've just talked about. Like, there's challenges with it. So what are your lessons learned from this? Like, what are your reflections on being married and owning the business together? I imagine that, you know, that's. That's not a cakewalk. Even if you enjoy it, it's not a cakewalk. So I don't know if you have thoughts for. There's plenty of husband and wives that run firms, so I don't know if you have thoughts about how it's evolved or, um, what you think now versus when you kind of first began on that journey together.

Bobby Botnick: I'll just say a little something. You. I'm sure you have plenty of ideas, but I was just going to say bringing on somebody else right now, it's like, you know, this is my baby and, like, I need to know that I can trust this person who's going to come in. And, uh, there isn't anybody else that. I mean, I don't trust anybody more than Abby. And so to be able to say, listen, you know, this is something I've been working on and growing, and I want to be able to share it and bring her in, and that was perfect. She also knew, like, how I operated a lot of what, like, my language and codes and things like that. Just, you know, the way you breathe. Exactly. And so she knows me better than I know myself. And so that's been so instrumental as well, and trying to figure out exactly where things are going to go. And I think also just how we have our relationship as a couple versus the firm. Right. I think that there's a lot where it's just like, having like, the business sense, not to say that Abby does not have one, but also just like, of running it, like, you know, she did not sign up to run a business. She's got a lot more of that now. But still having a lot of that and trying to decide, you know, what direction we're going to be moving in and things like that. But I knowing that I can always run anything by her, um, and it's not going to be shot down as are you crazy? Something like that, but we can actually talk on it. And that's, that's really fantastic.

Abby Botnick: Yeah, yeah. I mean I think for all the challenges that come with it, I think it's can be kind of a superpower to have us as closely connected and being able to run things. Because you're right, we already, I can already anticipate how Bobby's going to think about something or respond to something and probably likewise. And I know that we are very much a uh, yin and yang in life and in business. So we really compliment each other in a way that I can keep him grounded and sometimes if he's being overly optimistic, I can help bring in a dash of reality where he then can help temper my, you know, fear of risk, fear of sometimes that can gum me up in making decisions because I'm afraid it's not going to pan out. And he can sometimes take the reins and lead us through those kinds of decisions. You know, challenges are all the idiosyncrasies that you know and love about your spouse don't get left at the office door. And so they come with them. And so, you know, I know how Bobby operates, which is why, you know, I knew that I was going to have to take the reins in developing systems for the firm. I knew I was going to have to help us get in shape that way. What I didn't really realize soon enough is that there were probably other areas where I should be pushing my way in and not waiting to be invited. Managing some of our vendors, thinking about marketing, you know, not just thinking about firm operations, but long term goals and getting involved in that.

Bobby Botnick: I'd say probably only over the past couple of years and that's probably more so as like uh, like being a part of like um, a syndicate current capacity. I would agree. And really being brought into that and how the firm is like running and what those visions are.

Abby Botnick: Right.

Bobby Botnick: And what those, you know, setting the goals and rocks. Right.

Abby Botnick: One, uh, hundred.

Bobby Botnick: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean of course there's always going to be that overflow.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah.

Bobby Botnick: When you're getting those calls in the evening weekend and it's like I gotta step away sometimes, it's like, well I, I can see that you're sitting there right now. So you could probably talk to somebody for 15 minutes. Do a consultation. I mean, that that comes up, but at the same time it's like, but it's the weekend. Yeah, but you know, what's our goal, Right? And so it is good to have Abby there, um, as like that reminder. But I think it's also good that if we're able to grow and bring on additional people, then we can also start delegating more of those things. So that way when those calls do come in, evening weekend, it's not just on me or us to be doing that. So we can really just enjoy, you know, our time outside of the office together as just the couple and not as the law partners.

Abby Botnick: That's true. We've lost a little bit of that over the years where it feels like it's 24. 7 work is there hey, want to

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