How To become a True Solution Provider | Dominik Kujawski - Co-CEO at needCode | The IoT Podcast

Speaker A: Today I'm joined by Dominik Kojewski, co CEO, uh, and CRO of NeedCode.

Speaker B: It's a Yin and yang, depending on the situation, because I think one cannot coexist with another. Especially today where we're talking about solution providers. Ultra Wideband is still a very young technology. I think it potentially could be kind of a tornado that picks up in many different applications. The key is we start with the client problem. Success is built on, um, failures. The world is moving and if you're not moving forward lobbying, then you're falling behind.

Speaker A: Hey everyone, welcome to the IoT podcast. I'm your host today, Kit Gilbert, and as usual in this episode we'll be diving into the tech shaping the Internet of things. Make sure you hit subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and don't forget to turn on notifications so that you never miss an episode. Welcome Back to the IoT podcast. I'm Jake Gilbert, head of 5ETECH and your host today. Today I'm, um, joined by Dominik Kojewski, the uh, co CEO and CRO of Need Code. And today we're building on an episode that previously was done between our CEO Tom White and Bartek Kling, who's the founder of Need Code. And today shifts the focus from uh, maybe a bit more about what Need Code does and getting into the technical day to day actually to the shift in focus and, and how it's evolved from being maybe a kind of staffing and capacity partner towards a strategic partner and a trusted solutions provider in the connectivity space. But as people may know, in BLE Ultra wideband and embedded systems generally it's not just a challenge about having access to the right people, it's also about solving problems that teams may have been stuck on for a long time. And today it would be great to get into a bit more detail around, um, how Need Code is seeing things, how it's operating in that space and how it's made that transition as well, what that looks like in practice. So Dominik, it's great to have you here today. For those that maybe didn't catch the previous episode and may not know you, uh, be great to hear a bit of an introduction from your side. Talk to us a bit about kind of Need Code and how you describe the company today.

Speaker B: Hi Jake, it's my pleasure to be here today. So, as Jake mentioned, I'm Dominik Kojowski. I'm the co, CEO and CRO at uh, Needcode. My background lays in working closely with OEMs so my career started 10 years ago when I moved to Switzerland and been working in a smart lighting there. I had a position of uh, value based um, pricing managers. I work very closely with R and D and this is also the moment where kind of our professional paths with Bartek crossed. So as Jack mentioned, Bartek is the founder at Neatcode. We know each other since childhood, really long before LinkedIn was I think. And the smart lighting was um, a moment where kind of we noticed his technical background from R and D and building IoT solution embedded systems kind of fits nicely with what I'm doing. So commercializing, uh, later on I moved to hearing aids working also in Switzerland. So again an OEM that is very closely linked to the embedded software engineering and this expertise of connectivity is needed. Then um, my last episode in the corporate world was at Ecolab where I was doing real time location system pricing and commercial strategy. I move out of this corporate world to join full time neatcode and work closely with Bartek and we kind of run git code as co partners here. I sometimes say it's a yin and yang depending on the situation, uh, because I think one cannot coexist with another. Especially today where we're talking about solution providers. So staff augmentation, the golden era of, let's say outsourcing engineering we call it in Poland, like this golden era of outsourcing and staff augmentation, I think this is a bit over and the expectation of enterprise partners is about solving their problems. So we start from the client challenge and then we work it back, enabling it through the technical expertise. And this is how neatcode kind of transformed from a purely staff augmentation company to a solution provider that we are striving to be today.

Speaker A: That's great. And to give us maybe a uh, bit of context around that, uh, for people that might not have caught the last one around. What was that origin story? Because it is a really interesting one and I think it illustrates really well how that transition uh, has gone for you guys.

Speaker B: In the first episode where Bartik was um, in your podcast he mentioned how his story begin. He basically started to work with one company. It was um, Corvo, where he was the first kind of staff augmented employee. And then later on Corvo kind of grew with um, time and they demanded more engineering capacity and Bartek started to bring in people he trusts to the teams. Ah. So we builded their team with 2.4 GHz expertise and later the clients of the key account of um, neatcode. Our partner corvo um extended their needs for Ultra Wideband so we builded an ultra wideband team also for them um, for the engineering teams in France and Bartek was leading um those teams within Qorvo. Thanks to this we gained a lot of expertise and capabilities because Qorvo was for example at uh the forefront of ultra wideband development. And our teams gained this know how co building and co creating this technology which basically enabled us to be today a solution provider or a go to company as I call it for connectivity. Starting with Ultra Wideband where we position uh ourselves as a key expert but also in the BLE world and now we're striving to extend this capacity also for other connectivity technologies where we can source and enable projects for our clients.

Speaker A: And coming from that kind of origin story really going from 0 to 100 with Qorvo. So what was the inflection point? So at what point do you think it tipped from kind of capacity supply into really taking a solution first mindset?

Speaker B: I think that was the moment where we kind of started to build the Ultra Wideman team. Um so at the moment where the BLE teams were more like a client support teams uh where we ah worked with uh Qorvo customers as a support and when you are at the forefront of this technology, when you co create it and build it, this is where I think the true solution provided started. We always worked with clients and our partners talking about uh a net promoter score of what we are doing and why we were the um, uh go to company of choice. I think at one point in the past it was about the arbitrage cost. There was a cost advantage when you went to Poland and you source a team from there. I think there is still a benefit there. Maybe not as big uh as it was in the past but the feedback that we've heard was really once you guys did the code there were no bugs to fix so there was no maintenance cost associated to this and no iterations needed. It was a certified ready to go code for a very niche technology and a very difficult um kind of capability to source. And I think this was not only the arbitrage cost which could be called eroi, but it was the total value delivered uh, that could be quantified that there are uh, no iteration, no slowdowns and the product development goes as planned. And I think this is the value that a solution provider delivers. But also in terms of attitude what we're trying to do and we're highlighting it to our teams. What is an extra mile in Eastern Uh Europe is kind of a standard in Western Europe. So we always um, approach, we get the vague requirements from our clients, we put it in a very structured project plan, we get their alignment, we get their approval, we communicate in a very proactive attitude. And this is where I think um the key to the success combining um, the technical expertise. But also this business acumen and attitude is very important for the western enterprise uh, clients.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think uh, like you said we've had conversations about this before right? Is um really the value of that kind of attitudal and cultural alignment when it comes to working with teams kind of all over the world, wherever they are. Um, but it's interesting and maybe to uh, put a bit of a light as well on yours and Wildtech's kind of dynamics. So you mentioned it being around Ying and Yang. I think most businesses have uh, sometimes that playoff. Um, so at what point did you kind of become a full time member of the business? And um, what was the challenge of uh, going maybe from the enterprise world into something that was quite ground up.

Speaker B: So since a while we had many phone calls with Bartek discussing um, um I was advising him on go to market strategies. Uh looking at my background and his background also in the past um, we tried to do something together so we kind of um, tried to program a SaaS on pricing. Uh so more on my world there was a small after hour projects that we did but there uh, you kind of say the success is built on failures. We failed because um, um kind of um time to revenue was too long for a startup like this and the market was quite saturated. But then Bartek kind of started to think about yes um, this golden era that I mentioned about the expectations of the um clients are shifting and he kind of needs an advice. He was trying different methodologies, different agencies, different approaches but it was not a holistic concept. And I joined NITCO two months ago as a full time um engagement leaving uh my corporate world before I was advising Bartek. We get many phone calls in a friendship way kind of. And I think what we are doing now is an omnichannel approach for positioning neat code. So we're using different channels. We're using especially thought leadership which I think is key in this industry. We're sharing the knowledge that we gained. You can find an ebook about the newest standards in ultra wideband on our website that our engineers developed. We're trying to kind of share the latest news. We recently also visited Embedded World um conference in Nuremberg to meet the partners from the semiconductor industry and share this um, knowledge with them. I think it gained interest because Ultra Wideband is still a very young technology in my opinion. Um, I think it potentially could be kind of a tornado that picks up in many different applications. And this is I think how we want to position ourselves and of course the standard way. So building uh, internally the commercial functions, uh, building the positioning strategy, building the plans, this is my role at meetcode and then executing them with our marketing and sales team that nowadays cannot um, coexist, uh, separate. They need to work together to make it a success. So I always say it's about strategy and positioning. It's about executing it through the marketing channel. So kind of sales development, um, representative. Then there is the third chapter with the enterprise and partnership sales and making the agreement, which is incredibly difficult with all the buying committees, with all the stakeholders across big enterprises where you need to gain alignment and show the value you're delivering. The fourth part is really Bartek's part where he gets into the project, he maintains the relationship and kind of extends this partnership delivering value. And this is how we are operating today. And of course continuous improvement and developing the partnerships. Getting to the inner circle of this industry is I think the key, um, by sharing thought leadership.

Speaker A: Yeah, well I think that gives a really good uh, overview of the kind of state of play today. And I think you're right. Certainly we've seen it um, in both sides is that shift from uh, purely being able to um, compete on outcomes maybe and actually needing to be a real genuine part of community embedded in it, the thought leadership to actually, you know, have that edge and maybe to give a bit of a, you know, take a step back and give a bit of an overview. Now today, what are the main kinds of problems and challenges that companies are coming to you with, that you solve?

Speaker B: I think in the, in the last three years where Bartek started the transformation and he really got out to the world with um, the offering and kind of this transformation of meetcode. He had more than 150, maybe already 200 conversations with uh, potential partners. And we keep hearing a lot of feedback about three or four key points. Of course the arbitrage cost and the Capex and OPEX discussion. Buying out teams was always there and will be there. So that's a checkpoint for us. Right. I mentioned also the scarcity of the talent. So I recently, when I signed the contract with um, one of our partners now, um, he told me that he was looking for ultra wideband capabilities for more than two years in the U.S. he said there is um, kind of one place that didn't disclose where you can find those capabilities. But it's very, very difficult. It's a very scarce um, kind of um, area of sourcing talent. And I think this is where kind of our offering and their need linked uh, together uh, in a niche. And when you look at statistics, I mean Poland, um, and Eastern Europe, because there are countries like Serbia, Romania, they stand with engineering talent. Uh, but when I looked at statistics, I think there are more than 12,000 engineers in Poland that are related to embedded. So it's a very good place to be. Um, I think now the AI, ah, the cybersecurity, the edge computing, this is also somewhere that the talent develops and learns more skills. So I think that is an advantage. And now the third one that I would say is the geographical position and kind of uh, understanding the both worlds of Eastern and Western Europe that uh, many companies since years are uh, creating shared service services in Poland, kind of this back office uh, experience and the jobs that were done in Western Europe or us now are also done uh, in Eastern Europe. And I think this enabled the engineers and um, workforce to understand the culture, working every day on the calls, traveling, understanding what is needed. So this proactive attitude, this mindset of there is a problem. Okay, you're not telling me what to do, but I'm coming to you with let's say free solutions with their plus and minuses and offering you a solution, uh, proactively. This is what the general population learn. But I think this is where we put a lot of effort always. And Barte is putting a lot of effort on the technical skills, solving m the challenge in a technical way. Whereas I'm working with our teams on this uh, cultural understanding, the attitude, providing the right project management, uh, for two reasons. It's I lived abroad for more than 10 years now in Switzerland. I worked with international companies here and I understand this culture plus I work with big enterprises, inside the big enterprises. I kind of gained experience about their expectations and the value. Um, hence I explained this to our teams to deliver it to our partners. M and I think this is the secret sauce, um, something that the fourth point that I wanted to mention is a bit more difficult to quantify. I tried to do it because of my pricing experience in the past. So we have two case studies showing something like total value delivered and the return on investment for the two projects we did where we quantify the value of of course the arbitrage cost but the bug fixing, the additional feature that the Client could sell it to the end client. And this is where I think this discussion should go. So it's not only, hey, um, I'm saving 20% because I'm outsourcing, uh, to a cheaper country, yes, maybe that's fine and it's great, but how much value do I deliver more with this approach of a trusted partner? And I saw for example a research from Stanford showing replacing a team or having two teams from uh, Western Europe or US versus a mix of 90% Polish engineers with some addition of guys, um, from Asia. Basically the output was 97% um, of the same quality. And I think that's very good news.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think in the context uh, of what you were saying before of going from it just being a conversation around cost and maybe there's some other trade offs on the other end to actually not only is it a cost conversation that you can have, but also is that total value on the other end and not having loads of different people in different places, but actually I guess whole teams of people like you guys actually working together on site. You understand the business and really it's just an extension of the team. Not just, uh, you know, some people that we didn't know sat somewhere else. And uh, I guess you touched on it earlier as well, around the kinds of businesses really that you are working with and that you have quite a focused customer profile, ideal customer profile. So talk a bit about that. Who are the companies that really will get the most value from what you do and who maybe are the ones that are not quite ready?

Speaker B: Ah, that's a very good question, Jake. Uh, I think that's one of the most difficult exercises we had. And Bartek, um, will remember this for many, many, many years to come because he got this question from, he got two questions from us, always. What is the ideal customer profile or client profile and what is neat code? Uh, those were the two things that were developing over time. And I think we found a common agreement. The exercise that helped us was understanding the value chain really. So we kind of started from a semiconductor chip, um, and we identified, I think from the biggest ones noted on NASDAQ. They're like 20 plus companies that have system on a chip. Uh, even less of them are investing now, uh, in ultra wideband and putting focus on ble. So this is the partners that we want to work with. We want to share uh, our knowledge and our capabilities. We want to be present with them. And this is the closest to our heart. This is kind of Bret and Butter looking at our Partnership with qorvo. But if you look forward kind of where this uh, chip is used and what is the application, you're getting into the world of OEMs, original equipment manufacturers. And they're depending of course on an oem because in medtech you need for example um, uh, certifications to do the medtech grades. Um, you have the automotive where you need also a certain certification. But there's a variety of OEMs and I would say there are hundred thousands of them that you can cooperate that are building their solutions on those chips. And where we say for the semiconductor manufacturers, we could build an SDK for them, um, for example, or help them change the source code and improve the experience of the oem. For the OEM we were saying basically we can show you how to use the SDK, but we can also build the solution for you and work with the semiconductor manufacturer backwards to kind of enable uh, the functionalities that you need to build your solution. So for example this could be OEMs of building any kind of uh, product that has a connectivity from headphones, cars, smart uh, vacuum cleaners, anything that is smart lighting we mentioned. Right. Um, depending how kind of developed is this industry, uh, to tier one providers that are for example suppliers for automotive OEMs. And this is an interesting conversations that we have now. Um, like hospital, a car is the second most complex I think product that you have, um, vendors and those vendors are counted in thousands and each of them has a very important component. And in the components where you had the connectivity we could add value. We cannot probably as a small company, um, develop the whole component today for an automotive oem. I'm not saying this but we can build a part of this solution uh, with the tier one, uh, where Ultra Wideman and BLE is present. I think the third ideal customer profile is I mentioned startups, well funded startups that I think one of our partners and business developers recently said hot topics in the industry. A hot topic today is kind of humanoids. Uh, if you look at semiconductor manufacturers who specialize they have kind of schemes of a buildup of a humanoid on their website. So they are providing the chips and the solution, the technology to those startups. Uh, we can help them for example to build a part of this humanoid because I think it's not so different than uh, maybe a car in the end or part of the car. Um, and someone recently told me that a real time location system that we specialize could be a fit to a humanoid, uh, where you build it up and calculate the distance between humanoids, uh, when the lights are off in a factory could be a potential application.

Speaker A: Ah, that is interesting to think how far that goes. And I guess that gets into a wider conversation of where could you apply real time location systems are ultra wideband and I guess in the same way as a self, ah, driving car or a humanoid robot, they still need to look out for where they're going and be aware of things around them. And if ultra wideband is you know the technology that's best at doing that then I guess you have a quite a scope in terms of where you could offer that service if you have that expertise. So that's an interesting thought. And in terms of the I guess cultural side of things that you spoke about before and internally within the business but also with clients, I guess like many companies you find a big range of uh, maybe how easy it is to have conversations with on the one hand an enterprise level, uh, semiconductor business, on the other hand a well founded startup where the first person you might speak to is the CEO. Whereas an enterprise level the first person you might speak to is not quite at that level. So uh, how, how different do you find that navigating the structure of those different clients?

Speaker B: I think with a startup you basically get to the meat and there is a challenge. Uh, we immediately go into the proposal and then either we engage or we wait for half a year because the startup needs to kind of rethink the process and put it into the right moment. So the decision can be also long there. But you basically go directly to the CEO and cto. It's very quick and dynamic. Whereas in the enterprise um, buying committees is about gaining trust and building relationship uh, for the partners. Um, and I think this requires understanding m the ecosystem within the company, um, and mitigating the objections and making sure uh, kind of providing the evidence to the partner that we are capable of doing this project from different angles. Not only technical, I mentioned attitude, but also financial insurances, legal approach, uh, talking to the procurement, gaining an agreement on a negotiation. So I think if you combine all of this and have let's say 55 meetings is an average for an enterprise sales I would say maybe more depending on the size of the client. Then you get finally with the procurement for that dream and then you can start working. Um, the key is to finding the champion, the partner that promotes you within this organization because it's very difficult to be present there. I think with a startup you can be the champion yourself. Ah, promoting easily with the seal.

Speaker A: That's true. Yeah. We have A phrase, uh, it's the flag carrier who's going to carry your flag through the organization and be your sponsor.

Speaker B: You still need to deliver the flag in a quality way.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: No, you are right.

Speaker A: And you know, that also comes back to the different ways that maybe different scales of company actually evaluate that roi, uh, and the total value delivering. So you know, if you uh, if you were uh, able to kind of have a big shift in what those mindsets are, what are the main shifts that are needed when people are thinking about uh, business like yours going away from purely cost to actually the total value of what you can deliver?

Speaker B: I mean in terms of big enterprises, uh, I think there are two ways to prove this is basically change the competitive or benchmark matrices. Uh, there's always this matrix that assesses the price, the competence and so on and so on. Uh, but I think the best way to prove it is always start with a pocket, uh, throw other company or even five different companies a technical problem and see what they come back with. And this is kind of quite a fair competition I would say, uh, to get the flavor, how you work together, um, because it's also about kind of working together if we have the right fit and then you can really make your decision. And that's my recommendation. Once I think you find a trusted partner, um, and you're happy with it, it's kind of very difficult to break the relation, to be honest. It's a long lasting relation. Then there needs to be a black swan coming in. An economic crisis, a budget cut and so on and so on. But I think then a lot of work is in a company like ours, um, to maintain the service quality that you're delivering and every year increase it to, to kind of don't lose the trust of your partner.

Speaker A: Yeah, that does make sense. And I think, um, you know, it would be in this context of conversation as well. It would be maybe remiss of us not to touch on the, you know, rise of increasingly competent AI capabilities and how it's changing organizations that are delivering kind of technical solutions. And I guess one of the things that I wanted to ask is, um, from a strategic point of view, I speak to a lot of companies at the moment who are probably at the higher level of the software stack that are quite nervous about how useful they're going to be in future. Do you feel that because the expertise you have is very niche, the kind of layer that you're working at is very close to the hardware, do you feel uh, a bit more protected maybe than other Organizations that are providing technical solutions.

Speaker B: I remember a conversation when I went in Switzerland to a couple of OEMs and showed them Gitko, and they said, actually, you're doing something worthwhile. This is a true R D, which kind of M makes you feel safe. Uh, but the world is moving, right? And if you're not moving forward developing, then you're falling behind. And this is the philosophy that we're doing. We're utilizing the new tools to improve our quality. Right. And our operational efficiency. I would say it's an enabler for us, uh, because when you combine the technical capabilities with, let's say, AI tools or new planning tools, uh, new reporter tools, you increase the service quality you're delivering. Also the total value delivered and the perceived value of the client. Um, for us, I had this discussion with Bartek. I mean maybe in 10 years there are humanoids who can program and then, um, they do the hardware and the software, but maybe then we use the humanoids to increase our service quality. Right. Will not give up so easily on this. Um, and I think there is an emerging kind of, um, from this, there's emerging fields, um, there's the embedded and AI, how this thing go together, like edge computing. Uh, right. Um, and I remember Bartik saying I was trying to do edge computing already in 2015 to do the calculations on the device. Right. It's nothing new, um, which kind of shows me that it was already there developing. It took 10, 11 years to make it kind of a bit more viral now. I think it's an opportunity.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, and that was something I was going to come on to, actually is a conversation that you and I had a while ago when uh, we were talking about that term kind um, of edge AI and you made that point, which is, uh, it's become a bit of a marketing term. Whereas actually when you take a, ah, specific view of what the technology is, it's been around for a long time. It's just that now people are starting to think of it as something separate these days. And you know, in you seeing that, um, how does that play into your thinking around how it actually relates to the uh, embedded connectivity, but also embedded M intelligence and how those two things are quite linked.

Speaker B: It has to do a lot with the feedback we're getting from the clients, the conversations, but how it links to our strategy. I mean as a company, our core is ultraviolet ble. We plan in the future to reinvest, uh, our uh, net income, to develop more in the positioning of other connectivities, maybe a Bit older but to be present there like WI fi and there's Wi Fi 7 and 0. Now that, that could be um, a potential interest. We want to be present in Bluetooth channel sounding and develop demos there to show to the world there's the Bluetooth classic used everywhere. Um, there could be potential opportunities because if you position yourself as a go to company for connectivity, you want to do it. But the two things that we saw recently was edge computing or hai, um, and we looked for people like this. They're coming in Poland. There are not many of them, uh, to be honest. We did the market analysis and worked with our sourcing partners. But there are emerging and the number is increasing. It's easier to learn I think, AI when you're an embedded engineer than other way around. So you need to look from the people who already know embedded kind of are learning AI and then combine the two worlds. Um, and I think this will be doable and we will find more and more of those people. Um, and we can source them as well. Recently I also had a request and discussion with the client about ASIC engineers. To be honest, um, I'm quite a youngster in this industry. Didn't know what this is exactly and, and apparently there are also a couple that we could find. Um, but they are also kind of a neat emerging there.

Speaker A: Uh, it's interesting you say that from a talent point of view. Um, we had this question a while ago, uh, around uh, what's the strategy? Is it that you take embedded people and you teach machine learning or you take machine learning people and you teach them embedded? And it's always that classic uh, adage in computing talent where it's uh, it's easier to take away constraints than it is to add them to people. So the people that are used to working with very low constraints, low power, low energy, low memory, uh, it's easier for them to actually relax that and get a bit more understanding of AI. Whereas the people that are used to unlimited resources, you know, unlimited power, working in the cloud, it's probably a lot harder for them to start actually adding constraints and working at low levels. So it makes sense. It's, it's uh, kind of what we see as well. You need those embedded people to start learning machine learning. Uh, and that's how that kind of talent pool I think will evolve. Not to say it's impossible the other way, but it's a bit harder, right? You see it a bit less?

Speaker B: I think so. I think so, yes. Um, I see it for myself. I uh, try to learn from our engineers. I spend a lot of time with them. I think it's much easier for me coming from data and analytics, ah, regression statistics to understand a bit more AI world. And um, yeah, embed it. It's like a black box. It was for me at the very beginning. Now I started to understand it and it's a wonderful world, but uh, it's a complex world. It's a very complex world. There are a lot of interlinks. Um, and I think this is, I find this as my role to show the value it delivers because there's a lot of value to be found there.

Speaker A: Yeah. And um, I guess the, you know, one of the things that we haven't quite touched on yet but I think is worth, um, is worth talking about as well is also how you deal with uh, the whole kind of certification and the uh, interoperability side of what you're developing as well. And you know something companies struggle with a lot. So how do you kind of navigate that? Is that part of what you're offering?

Speaker B: There are many, many offerings and value points that, that we talked with Bartek and the team how we can show our value. I think what Bartek told me is we create code that is be ready to certify. Uh, in the past our teams co created and created standards uh, in BLE mesh at the very beginning of, I say the smart lighting revolution. So I think you have people capable of uh, co creating and creating standards. Their name are there and they are in our teams. Um, I think it's all about delivering the quality code ready to certify. And I remember we were co creating uh, together with our marketing, sales and technical team something we called smart product, uh, audit, where there were kind of trade offs, uh, battery management, performance, interoperability and so on and so on. It was like a spider chart. I said uh, what are the interdependencies? Ah, here. Right. What about performance versus battery? What about the interoperability and so on and so on. And this is how we always want to work with the clients as well. Understand where there are, do kind of small audit as is, um, and then make a recommendation, get their alignment and develop a quality code ready to be certified.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think like you said earlier, um, it's always best where you can start with a proof of concept. What people like saying these days, proof of value and then actually have a solution from there rather than trying to throw some ideas in before you know what that problem is. So that's interesting.

Speaker B: Exactly one company Told me recently, um, they did a management buyout from a bigger one and they said, what changed for us? We are not any more green in the procurement system. So they don't have a big name behind them, them. To my uh, change from the corporate world to kind of meet code, which is a smaller company. I think the key is to develop this relationship. So when you see a small company coming from middle of um, let's say a country you don't know well, never been to, uh, it's about your personality and relationship that you're building. So the promise that you're giving during the talks, it needs to be realized later. Yeah, and, and that's the key and

Speaker A: um, I guess to, you know, on the tone of the conversation. We had already going from uh, as you said, that uh, uh, initial origins with Bartek and to what you guys have today to maybe kind of summarize on some of those points, you know, what do you think people should take away as the main differentiators in what you guys are now versus maybe more generic businesses or businesses that are, uh, have less ownership of the end product.

Speaker B: The key is we start with the client problem. Uh, we take very vague uh, requirements and it's a mind shift. So you're not starting with a technical solution, you're starting with the business problem. It has a lot to do, a bit of design thinking, I think, talking into customer gains and pains that exist, gains that you can create. And that's the main differentiator between what neat code was and is today. Uh, we're thinking with the client, we're asking a lot of questions to learn how this will be used. Why is it important? We're asking a lot of questions to understand. And that's not only about the technical, um, solution but also about the way of cooperating. So I remember this discussion with our recent client. How will you kind of assess our performance? And we came into the conclusion, uh, this engagement doesn't make sense in terms of any KPIs because we take the ownership, um, our KPI is a demo that we show the weekly report out. Uh, typical project management engagement with progress highlights, risk mitigation of the risk. And this is the difference again that we're doing today as a solution provider versus just being a staff augmented team led by um, a client, a person there in Western Europe or in US and we didn't have any impact. And that's fine, we can still do that. We will find people that will be the extension of your team and we can do it. But on top of that we can also offer an outcome based project. Right Fix M Co fixed price. Um, I think what we also introduced is this kind of consulting um, approach. And I know many people don't like the word of consulting so I will call it advisory. Uh, Steve Jobs didn't like it. You can see the video on YouTube. But what I mean here is the approach of we spend a lot of time with our clients to understand and it's let's say the time that we invest into the relationship. We're not charging for this time. Uh, and many, many times we spend many many meetings like a typical advisor and then the client is kind of saying I need a bit more time and he's coming back in one year. This is our investment into the relationship. It's this, we built on this, the thought leadership. We uh, built on this understanding of the market. But we also show that we're not a transactional partner and like you know, you pay for hours. But it's a true partnership. Um, we want to exchange, we want to learn about your business and we want to contribute to it.

Speaker A: And uh, on that then. So I guess um, there was a couple of kind of key highlights I wanted to go through. But we spoke before around uh, stories, case studies and I'm sure there's uh, probably some things you can't talk about but for people to take away what say a kind of really great example of where you've been able to go in and do that and deliver something that you may want to share

Speaker B: I think except the big names that I already mentioned. So just being a partner of Corvo already gave us uh, recognition and, and trust. I think uh, the two key projects where you see our case studies that are quantified was a kind of, I call it a boat elevator. In a funny way that was an amazing project. And we started with fixed co, fixed price proof of value and now we're continuing. So it's an engagement for more than three years now. So again this partnership and the whole story is on our website. I will not go into details. Uh, uh, it's kind of a boat lift did for a client in the US Uh fantastic project and fantastic partnership. We visited us many times for this, had a lot of fun with the clients. And from this as a word of mouth we kind of gained another project which is a cross pollination of corn. So providing value for the uh, people having fields full of corn in the US Contributing the technology that the end user can have a greater output. This is the projects that I call um, very interesting projects, ah, that a normal human being would not think about that this exists, this is what it makes so exciting. I think the recent engagements that are interesting and are developing it's all about the smart access systems for locks for cars, um, as well as ah, ah, some of the humanoids. And this is where we kind of look at and connect to partners as well.

Speaker A: And um, on that, wrapping that up then. So listening to this kind of conversation that we've just had here, uh, for people out there, who is it that should reach out to you after hearing what you're saying today?

Speaker B: Definitely all people that have a challenge, uh, or would like to build an SDK for semiconductor manufacturers and are operating there and are interested in the technology of ultra wideband and BLE when it comes to OEMs. Any OEM that is currently building uh, connectivity or an application, uh, on Bluetooth and Ultra Wideband, um, and for well funded startups, uh, present in new technologies, um, could be the defense, could be human rights, uh, could be autonomous cars, um, as well or smart locks, smart payments, real time location Systems. So mostly CTOs, technical directors, CEOs and so on and so on. Everyone present in the buying committee,

Speaker A: uh, yeah. And that would be I think, um, also looking at this, uh, maybe a more of an education piece as well, right. That some people out there still just have in their mind that it's all about cost and that's the only benefit. So when we come to what's that key mindset shift that we talked about earlier to kind of sum that up, um, maybe I'll dip my words and you correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like, you know, it's not just about looking at arbitrage costs. It's about solving outcomes and taking ownership of a total end solution in a partnership.

Speaker B: I think through switching the mindset and educating potential clients and partners, showing the value switch from cost to value based engagement, value based procurement through trust, through thought leadership through true partnership through attitude. There are many components that kind of you need to bake in your bakery to have a fresh and well defined um, embedded bread as we call it. And I think this is where we're heading, right, and this is what I encourage our partners and clients to do. Uh, talk to us and we can show you how to switch, uh, thinking just about costs to value based engagements and total value delivery.

Speaker A: Well I think on that that's a great note to uh, wrap that up and as a final kind of uh, point for people, um, if people really want to kind of learn more, keep updated with what you're doing and maybe get a bit more educated. What's the best way for them to do that other than picking up the phone to you, Dominik?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Follow our profile on LinkedIn, Bartek's profile, my profile connect on LinkedIn, observe our website. And we're also happy to meet in person on any conference, uh, or visit. And of course, watch this podcast.

Speaker A: Well, you're promoting it for us already before we finish. Well, Dominic, it's been a great conversation and really thank you for coming on building, um, on what Bartek said before, I think, you know, it's an insightful breakdown of how that transition has gone from really Bartek being a contractor through to you having now a business, which is that trusted solution provider. And I guess for people out there watching this, you know, if you are someone or you know, someone that's building, uh, connected, and maybe in the future an intelligent, uh, product at the hardware level as well, I guess there's a simple takeaway. Don't just optimize for cost, optimize for value overall. Uh, and you can find Dominic and Nudecode, uh, on LinkedIn website links that we'll have in the show notes. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode, follow the IoT podcast, send it to someone that might be interested, and we'll see you on the next one. Thank you very much, Dominic.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Jake. I appreciate it. All the best.

Speaker A: You too.