Angel Insights from an Ironman: Mental Health Breakthroughs from Insurance to Investment

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Mitchell, thank you for sitting down with me today. Appreciate, uh, having you in. You came into the office. Thank you for doing that today. Uh, we need to do more like this actually in person. So, Neil, you, uh, you and I, what, we met probably four years ago, five years ago. I don't know how long.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I, I think I was trying to reflect on that myself on my way over here. I, I, I think there was a connection through Holt.

Speaker B: Oh, yes.

Speaker A: I think maybe, yeah. Jan, Elizabeth. Yeah, some functions around that. I'd seen your name because it was sort of, I think, going into Covet or sort of around Covid. So, uh, you were very visible virtually and digitally, and I think I probably picked up on. I'm a pretty curious person and as people, some people know and I tend to go down some rabbit holes, so. And I think it was through my connection in with old that I met you virtually because there were a lot of virtual things going on at the time. And then they had, uh, like, uh, a, uh, an event in Montreal.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And that's where I physically first met you, like in person.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And that's probably two, maybe three years ago.

Speaker B: Isn't that funny that, uh, I don't know about you, but I've lost track. There's some relationships that developed virtually during COVID and I lost track of who have I not met in person yet. And that's still like a pretty extensive list for me. I don't know if it's that way with you, but, uh, yeah, and you and I also, uh, met up in Toronto. Broke bread, which is always good to do. Um, I've learned a lot about you, Neil, uh, over the years and, uh, you've shared a lot on the personal side too. So, like, I look forward to, like, in this discussion getting into, you know, business lessons, you know, talking about, like, all the growth opportunities coming, coming out of Canada and just internationally and you know, in the shirt insert tech space. But I think there's also some, like, some personal lessons.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Um, you know, that you can share that the audience are, are certainly going to benefit from, I think. Yeah, anybody who has, uh, a pulse or a heartbeat can certainly benefit from some of the things that you've share. Um, I'm, I'm really looking forward to unpacking that together, so.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's great. Yeah, let's, let's do it, I guess.

Speaker B: All right, let's jump into it. So, um, maybe we could start kind of from the beginning and not like when you were born and if you Want to include that? Feel free.

Speaker A: There's a time limit.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Um, but what, what I was thinking is, you know, just you've. You've had an extensive accomplished career in the insurance space. Um, and I think I, I don't want to speak for the audience, but I know about your time at Marsh and I think. How many years were you at Marsh? A.

Speaker A: Uh, long time. 20, I think. 27. 27 years.

Speaker B: Okay. How did you get into the insurance space? Maybe start there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And talk about. Because I, I'd like to kind of talk about like, I think it's very relevant, um, your journey through the insurance space in your career. And you know, there was an inflection point at Marsh, I think, which will probably bring us into a, into a new topic as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, yeah, I'll try and keep it relatively short. So my introduction to the insurance, the commercial insurance industry came through a really good friend of mine, a ah, high school neighborhood friend of mine, uh, Robert Redmond. And Robert's uh, dad, um, was a very, very senior insurance broker leader in Canada, ran several national, uh, insurance brokerages. And um, it was often on a summer evening, they had a beautiful dairy farm in Vankle Kill. And I'd uh, often find myself on their front porch in the evening either planning to go out with Robert or just enjoying a great conversation with Robert and his dad. And uh, it was really through those conversations because I was sort of at that point in my life coming up towards the end of university, uh, I didn't like anyone, didn't really know what I was going to do next and sounded intriguing. Uh, it wasn't my first go to job coming out of university, but I always came back to it. And uh, and then, uh, as some good fortune would have it, Robert's brother, older brother, Peter Redmond, um, senior guy at jnh, senior guy at Marsh, um, I was introduced to him and, and then through Robert and his brother Peter, I started being exposed to all these big personalities in the uh, commercial insurance industry. And I was like a. Intrigued by the personalities, the stories. Their, their Persona was.

Speaker B: There's a few of those.

Speaker A: Yeah. Or just legendary. And uh, but also about the business itself. And I had this sort of notion that, you know, I was taking my Canadian securities course and I was thinking, oh, I want to be in, you know, Bay street and playing in that world. And I, you know, I went for a few interviews. They didn't pan out for me and probably for good reason. But uh, what I was attracted to was this concept of deal making and creating. And it was really, you know, the stuff you don't know about insurance. Yeah. Uh, like you think auto insurance or life insurance, but yeah, corporate insurance, commercial insurance is pretty sophisticated business. And uh, what I was starting to get attracted to was this notion of creating things and creating solutions. And you were actually an insurance broker, was actually being the creator of insurance solutions for their clients. And I sort of stumbled into these, this large account space. So now you're talking about property towers of hundreds of millions of dollars, primary access, quota share, stop loss, aggregate protection. Then you sort of dribbled into the reinsurance world and that just sort of. I. And then one, I guess one day or one moment I went okay, I, I gotta get in there. And so. Right. I went on probably a year journey going to interviews, meeting people. And then finally I got, I guess lucky. And uh, actually a person who lives not far from here on Lakeshore, Phil, uh, Kane, who was just an amazing, uh, insurance professional. Um, he uh, he, I guess took a liking to me and I got into a department that he'd created which really was a catch for all of the tough, hard to place difficult risk across Canada. So you got exposure to domestic insurers, you got exposure to international. Got a ton of exposure to Lloyd's. Got of a ton.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that sort of got my career going. And then, you know, I guess the rest is history. Couple years there. And then I uh, got into uh. At the time I began to realize, okay, I have to get to Marsh. Like it was like the New York Yankees of the day.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And so, you know, you'd go out to these cocktails and these conferences and you go out in the evening and you're trying to broker deals and you'd always run into the Marsh guys and they were just.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Bigger and better. Very. They had. And they Wore it too.

Speaker B: 25 of them at every.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, 25. Or even spy. And they, they were picking up accounts, they were winning, they were celebrating. And you're going, man, I gotta get over there. Somehow I want to be on a winning team. Yeah. So I through, you know, the business is a big business, but a small business. And uh, yeah, I got lucky and got into uh, a great unit at Marsh called FinPro. It had a very dynamic uh, leader in John Chippendale. And yes, he, he, he had a little bit of a rocket strut to his back end and he was going like this. So that unit exploded in a good way. And out of that came some over Time management opportunities. And one thing led to another, led to another, led to another. And you know, Marsh was the reason I think I spent 27 years there was it just, uh, every couple of years there was a new opportunity and, and Marsh was very innovative and new products, new risks, new solutions. And uh, it attracted some of the best commercial insurance people in, in Canada. And that, that Persona sort of emanates around the world for Marsh for sure. And so that, that was my time there. And uh, you know, I had great, great time there. Great leaders, great managers, great colleagues.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, yeah, it was a really good place.

Speaker B: Did you ever aspire to, uh, to venture outside of Canada while you were at Marsh? Where were those opportunities?

Speaker A: Yeah, there, there were, there were a couple of occasions when they presented themselves and yeah, I kind of entertained them a little bit, but I never, I, you know, I, I guess I was pretty preoccupied with what I had and I, I, I loved where I was. Like, it wasn't like I was really looking to go anywhere. But yeah, the opportunities where there were colleagues that I worked with that did go. Yeah, uh, I can think of a couple of them off the top of my head right now that did go to New York and uh, and they had long, long careers there and uh, and then some who went, spent time at Marsh and then went to work elsewhere in the insurance industry in the U.S. so yeah, yeah, no lot. There was mobility there was that, yeah.

Speaker B: Did you feel that there was enough opportunity to, to move around and move up, just staying in Canada? Oh yeah, it sounds like there.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh yeah. And then, yeah, people moved from office to office and some, uh, of the guys that. Well, Peter Redmond was in Toronto and he went out to Calgary and then he came back and Brian Parsons was in Toronto and he went to Calgary and then I think Saskatoon and um. Yeah, there was, there was, yeah, there was no shortage of opportunities in the organization.

Speaker B: So you did. When you started, were you a producer when you started? Or, or.

Speaker A: Uh, no.

Speaker B: Commercial broker.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What was your first.

Speaker A: Yeah, the first role I had was basically a placing broker. So.

Speaker B: And there's a reason I'm asking that question, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, so a placing broker. So I was working with a producer or a client executive.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And going out and securing coverage, uh, and terms and pricing commission levels and negotiating with the underwriters or underwriter.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: On any given risk and putting uh, together the coverage terms and conditions on that risk for the producer, the client executive, and at J and H, which is where I first Started, there was a real delineation between placement and client facing, which was very different at Marsh. And uh, which was sort of why Marsh. As I got to know the business better, I went, okay, well there's more value if I'm the front guy dealing with the client, if I'm also the same guy placing the coverage. Right. So yeah, I think I just felt that you knew more about the market, you knew more about the coverage, you understand the ins and outs. And you didn't have to always say, well, let m me write that down and I'll get back to you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like you knew it or you could pick up the phone. Yeah. There was no operator in between. So. So, but it was placement. And then that evolved into being the client executive on a.

Speaker B: Over time.

Speaker A: It started with a very, um, small book of small accounts and then that became a bigger book and then over time that became bigger accounts and then I started to get an opportunity into the program business world associations, groups, and um, predominantly in the area of professional liability. So. So that sort of took me a little bit in that direction. But I was always in the client capacity acting as a placement broker. Um, when you got onto some very large global placements, then you did have more of a specialization around the placement function. But the client executive was still in those meetings. So it wasn't like there was a separation of church and state.

Speaker B: Yeah. So like. Because at the end when it gets to be like international, you're probably dealing with more reinsurance and, and, and uh.

Speaker A: Well, not necessarily me. I mean, on the treaty side.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Reinsurance, uh, obviously is a big part of that. But uh, for me it was always on the primary side. I got exposed to the reinsurance actually later in my career. Okay. Uh, and more along. Yeah, that was. And it was more unique and one offs.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So it wasn't really part of that day to day. But you did have to understand it because the insurers that you were doing business with had those treaties.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And either they were robust enough to handle the risk or they, they would have to do something with that. So they would inform you of it. So you, you get a little bit of glimpse into the world. But you weren't. Yeah, you know, I wasn't a reinsurance broker.

Speaker B: Right. Um, no, and I meant more like uh, interacting with reinsurers to, to risk. But, um, so. And what I'm trying to establish is like the arc of your career. So, um, you know, the last days at, at Marsh, what was the highest level that, that you had achieved and Because I, I think it says a lot about the opportunity to advance and grow in the insurance industry. That is true, you know, in your career and it certainly is. Is true today.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and I think, you know, like we again, we have an audience that, that's very diverse and our demographic is very wide. Uh, from an age perspective there, you know, we've got young insurance professionals, we've got a, you know, a lot of people in the Toronto area and, and, and throughout the country, Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, that are in their early 20s, you know, and might be where you were when you were coming in and doing placements. So where did that kind of level, uh, off for you? Um, at ah, at uh. Marsh.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, That's a great question. Um, it, you know, I think the leveling off happened, um, really because, well, the health situation I went through, um, like I, I came down with a, ah, severe mental illness, um, in. Well, I'm just trying to remember 2014.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and at that time I was

Speaker B: uh,

Speaker A: to the outside person and to the, to my colleagues. Yeah, things look pretty good and I was continuing to accelerate. Right. And then.

Speaker B: And Senior management, executive level.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um. Yeah, no, I was, yeah, there, there was a few of us in that conversation. Um, but for me, I, I think that path was, I think, I don't know, I think Mother nature took care of that for me a little bit. Right. So, um, um.

Speaker B: So had that not happened, there was, you think there was another level for you? There were more levels?

Speaker A: Oh, I think. Oh yeah, for sure. And, and that doesn't necessarily mean that next level had to have been in Toronto. It could have been elsewhere because I was getting some pretty good exposure south of the border at that time. So um, yeah, uh, you know, I, you know, I took myself out or a ah, combination of, yeah, you know, good people in the company coming beside me and saying, Neil, you gotta, you gotta take care of whatever you got right now. And uh, and so I mean I had a great, great leader at the time who was the CEO of the company and he uh, you know, he gave me a lot of rope with that.

Speaker B: Well, that's says a lot about the organization you were working for and probably the, the, the goodwill you built up with the organization, you know, through your accomplishments. Um, so tell me a bit about like. So, because we're, you know, again, you and I are very career focused people. We're very ambitious. We've established we're both type A's. Like, like to be.

Speaker A: I might be a small Type A. Now, maybe I'm a little bit older.

Speaker B: Maybe there's a lesson, you know, for

Speaker A: me, a lot of water under my bridge.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, I try to say the Serenity prayer as much as I possibly can, but, uh, I'm still a work in progress. But, um, for you, you know, coming, you know, through you, very successful. And you know, we'll get into some of your accomplishments outside of this too, because, like, um, you know, I. It. The marathon running, uh, I think you've, you've also done triathlons as well. Right. Uh, but we'll get to like. That's a very small segment of the population. You know, that. Right.

Speaker A: That.

Speaker B: That can even sign up for that and show up and let. Let alone finish. Um, but, uh. So this, now, at this stage of your life, something happens. Um, this obviously is not part of the plan. No, it's not part of anyone's plan.

Speaker A: Never is.

Speaker B: Um, and I'm sure there's a phase of denial and, you know, I can fix this. Uh, you know, I fix everything.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: What. What was. What are you comfortable sharing around that. That stage and how you got through that and how you came out on the other side of that?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Ah, that's a good question and a bit to unpack. Um, I, I think it, it's actually as you ask it and as I try and reflect on it very quickly. Um, is. It's. It's amazing how quickly it happened because this would have been, um. I remember the day I knew something was wrong. It's like one of those things. You, you remember the days.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The dates of your children's birth, etc. Etc. So for me, January 10, 2014, at about 2 o' clock in the morning. I, I'll never forget it. Um, I was the type of person. Yeah. A lot going on, but I didn't. I never had a problem sleeping. I. You could say, Neil, we got three hours. I can go take a nap and I'll go take a nap and, and

Speaker B: you know, uh, and just.

Speaker A: I'll sleep. But for some reason, and it's odd that I remember this time, but that morning I woke up and I couldn't get back to sleep. And that, that for me was very unusual. Like, I know maybe for some listening, like, oh, well, Neil, that happens all the time. But for me that was extraordinary. And, uh, and I really didn't. I mean, I thought about. I went, whoa. That was a. Uh. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. Yeah, but that Was the beginning just

Speaker B: a lot on your mind. Yeah.

Speaker A: Of not sleeping for months.

Speaker B: So it became chronic at that point.

Speaker A: Well, uh, January 10th was day one of the, uh. And. And you know, as the week went by, uh, you know, I didn't matter. When I went to bed, it was like an hour and a half. It was 90 minutes. And then I'd be up and I. I just couldn't. So I guess a few days go by, or maybe even a week goes by, and I go see my doc and they give you some drugs, and I didn't even know what they were, but you take them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they work for a little while, then you go back and they're not working. And the dose gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And. And what I didn't realize was I was being put on benzodiazepines. So the lan. You know, the Isopan. Yeah. You know, whatever. The.

Speaker B: More than just sleeping pills.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, and. And so at some point you have to come off of that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I didn't really understand the titration process, and that created a whole complication. So it was like I was going to work. And, you know, I. I just felt like I was on the side of a cliff, just sliding, sliding, sliding.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And that went on from, um, January to Thanksgiving weekend. And by the time September rolls around, it's obvious to other people that I'm working with, like, yeah, now you're starting. People are coming to you. Yeah, people are talking to people who are coming to you. And so I, I began to realize, okay, this is. There's an end here. And, uh, then, um, Thanksgiving weekend, uh, I sat down with Alan well before the weekend, and he just said, you know, Neil, why don't you take a couple of weeks? Maybe you just need to take a couple of weeks. Now this is after he's. He told that me too, a couple of times before.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think he was hoping against hope. And so was I. And that was the last time I showed up for two and a half years.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: So, uh, and I remember calling back in two weeks and he just said, how's it going? And I guess I must have mumbled or stumbled with the words. And he, he just went, Neil, um, our hr, like by name, but it was our HR director. She'll. She'll be in touch with you. So that, that became six months of short term disability. And then after short term, you move into long term disability.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so that, that, uh, that was humbling. That was. That was scary. That was hard. And, And And. And not only personally, your family, but then you've got finances in behind all of that. And you're going. Short term's one thing, long term's another. And, uh, yeah, so that. That's probably the Cole's notes version for you, but maybe there's some questions around that. Uh. Oh, yeah, but that. That's sort of the. The time frame and. Yeah, you know, the. There are a lot of stories in between the beginning and the end of that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and the good news is, I mean, there's. There's good news. The good news is I got healthy.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, I got back and I was able to, you know, ride up the elevator, uh, to the Marsh office two and a half out, two and a half years later. And, yeah, they welcomed me back. I had a great job. And I, uh, mean the job, obviously, the role and everything had changed, but, yeah, ah, the place was there, the people were there. I was greeted.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, very well, and, uh, a lot of great friendships. And I think, though, when I came back, I also realized a lot has changed and a lot where I've changed, I've changed, they've changed, companies changed. So. And I. And I've got some great, great friends who came around me through that whole process. And at the right time, uh, they kind of helped me get my head going into. Well, Neil, what's your plan B?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What's your point? B.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, and that really started, you know, the entrepreneurial thing for me.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: Um, so. Yeah.

Speaker B: So couple. Yeah, there's a lot there. And thank you for being so open about it. Like, I know it's not easy to share, and. And I know you're sharing from a place of knowing that it'll. It could benefit others, it could save someone's life just hearing that story. Um, especially because the other side of it. There's a lot on the other side.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but just a couple things. Like, I. I have it, like, almost like from an insurance angle.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: You never thought you'd be the claimant. Um, what did that.

Speaker A: That's a great.

Speaker B: What did that feel like?

Speaker A: First of all, that was actually inside of. Yeah. I mean, I. I got to say, I was. Well, I. Our family was very fortunate. Like, the insurance coverage protection, if you will, that Marsh had arranged was extraordinary.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, at no time did we feel the squeeze. Um, they checked in. Sure. But we had great doctors, and, um, the communication was really strong there. And, uh, there's. There was a time. And, um, I have the letter somewhere. I think it Was probably a year and a half in, um, something like that. We get a letter from. I think it was. I think the company was manulife at the time and saying, you know, Neil doesn't have to report in or this could be the end of it. And we're good with that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. Right. So they had basically, I guess from a financial thought that, okay, things are so severe, it's very unlikely he's coming back to work at all.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So let's not bother him and, uh, or bother the family. So. Yeah, I think I was very fortunate in so many ways, uh, employer. The insurance coverage. Um, Yeah, I. There. We did not have any additional stress, particularly for my wife because she basically was driving the bus. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I wasn't sure they. I don't think anyone knew if I was on the bus. Like.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like. Yeah. Uh, is he back there? I. I don't know.

Speaker B: Did that in any way go back and check? Is he in the trunk? Where.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I literally was in the

Speaker B: trunk just hanging on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Did, uh, uh. Did that in any way, um, change your impression or opinion of the value insurance plays in society?

Speaker A: Like. Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. Ah.

Speaker B: Because let's face it, like, when we're young and hungry and full of piss and vinegar, sometimes it's like, you know. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm making deals. Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's like you're. You're just selling a product and I, you know, there's, I'm not judging anybody because that. There's great brokers out there that are, Are great at placing risk. And it's like, uh. But what impact are you having on society like that for your family was, uh.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, critical.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, like in the context of. Role of insurance in, in my life, in that situation, or anyone's life, or a fire in a house, a car accident, um, you know, building a business, being lost, business interruption.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: These floods, these storms. Yeah. The. It's a noble profession. It's a, It's a noble industry. It's a noble profession. Yeah. And there's problems. Sure. You know, and you can focus. The media is good at that. Um, yeah, they're always going to highlight that and, and. And some of it for a really good reason. I mean, you know, it's terrible what happened to the CEO of a, uh, uh, insurance organization. Yeah. But what it's. Underneath all of that is, uh, a bigger issue. And sure, those things have to get attended to. So insurance is not Perfect. No, but it's pretty darn good.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, for the most part, it is good. And it is. I, I really stress the nobility of the industry. It is a noble industry. It's there, it's designed. Right. To help.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: And if you.

Speaker B: That's the problem.

Speaker A: It's been, it's been commercialized in many ways.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. But as you go back in time, its community.

Speaker B: It started with a hat. Right. Really like pass it around.

Speaker A: Look at the farms.

Speaker B: You need salt.

Speaker A: Right. I, I've, you know, I saw it firsthand when my cousin's barn got burnt down and.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, predominantly an Amish community came around and rebuilt the barn and, and so like, that is the essence of insurance. You know, the contribution of the many to offset the loss, the loss of the few. Although the few are many sometimes. Um, and you had. And there's the, that's when the business side has to go. Well, there's many contributing, but there's many, uh, losing. So we have to make some adjustments here. Um, but, you know, I, I can't say enough about the industry and my experience with it. No, that's that both professionally and in my. Yeah. Personal life.

Speaker B: And your personal experience being the. On the other side of insurance. I'm going to pivot a little bit to like, you know, coming out of this though, you know, we, as ambitious professionals, um, you know, we build up a lot of self worth around our career, our accomplishments. Um, and I'm sure, like, that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like that day you walked back into Marsh, you stepped off the elevator, uh, did that feel like restoration, uh, of your dignity or a moment of redemption or like.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was, it was like every day. Yeah, it was, um, A little bit of me didn't want to do it. A lot of me wanted to do it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. But wanting to do it and actually doing it, it's, you know, uh, not to exaggerate a word, but I would say courage. You, you personally have a moment of courage, you know, to yourself anyway. Right. No one, no one sees it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But you, you, you actually talk to it as you're riding up the elevator.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then boom, it opens and you walk out. And you walk out, you just, and you just. One step, one step. And all you need is a smile. Right. And, you know, there were a couple of smiles and. Yeah, okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then you finish the day and you come back the next day. And one day comes a week and two weeks, three weeks. And before long, you're in meetings, you're contributing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, you're a little bit off on some things because you've been, you've been out of it. But, um, yeah, it's. Yeah, I think it's, you know, this happens in life and business and sports in a lot of.

Speaker B: None of us are immune to it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're all made out of the same thing at the end of the day.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, I, I think for me, I had motivation. Not so much personal. There was some of that. But I really like when you, when someone goes through any kind of situation like that. Uh, could be cancer, could be kidneys, it could be heart disease. I think there's a point in it, you, you kind of go, why? What's the purpose there. There's got to be a purpose to this. Right. Or you're, you'll manufacture one anyway. Sure. And, uh, for me, um, you know, I got three kids, and this is like 2014 through 20s or. Well, uh, like 2016 and a bit.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, like, what. What can I give them out of that? Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so what's the greater good? Yeah. Or.

Speaker A: Yeah, what, what, What? Is there something. You know, parenting is a tough job, and no one gives you a manual on it, and. But you do look for moments that you can sort of pay it forward.

Speaker B: True.

Speaker A: And I, for me, getting back was something maybe I could give them because they're going to go through hard times.

Speaker B: That was a lesson.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And modeling it. Maybe they'll remember. Not. Maybe they will. They'll remember the journey. M. And they'll remember how they felt about me.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they'll remember what they can or want to remember about my state in that time. And they will go through tough times. Their friends will go through tough times.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Their families will go through tough times. So, you know, that sort of shared experience is something that. Hey, now, depending on what you go through, you may not be able to come back.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But, but if you can, how do you. And should you. And so really there was nothing stopping me other than me. Right. So what can they see and take away from that? So I, I'm, Yeah, a bit of repetitive on that, but that, that to me. And then what was interesting is once I came back and my story got. The more fuller story got out there, I mean, I, I, People would reach out to me. I remember meeting, uh, a, uh, husband and wife at a Tim Hortons, and they wanted to talk about their son, teenage son, who was going through mental illness challenges. And, uh, so I would often get these calls or reach out. So I, Yeah, uh, I'd show up. I'd always say, listen, I'm a. I'm the patient or the survivor. I'm not the doctor. Yeah, you got to talk to a doctor. But if you're asking me about my experience, here's my experience. And so I found that was almost, um, therapeutic in itself for me.

Speaker B: Oh, for sure.

Speaker A: And, uh, you know, there were people from inside the industry, outside the industry, that would reach out. I mean, that's fewer and fewer now. But every now and then I do get a. A DM on LinkedIn or something. And, you know, I always take a. A call or a coffee. And. Yeah, again, I'm not a medical professional, but I'll. I'll. I'll empathize and share. And sometimes, like, sometimes people just need hope. And, and for me, going through that. Yeah. Uh, I was always searching for hope. I was searching for another Neil who was going through what I'd gone through or was further through it or who'd gotten to the other side. And, uh, I mean, it took a while for me to find a person or a person or two like that, but that guy was always like, like, you know, where's your Northern Star? There's got to be someone who's gone through the same thing.

Speaker B: Well, and that. There's such a stake and got back. There's such a stigma around it. Some people, there's. There's probably more than we know. But people are afraid to share.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or they're ashamed. But there's a huge message of hope here. And, uh, you know, again, you never know who you're going to reach. And, uh, it could be one person who listens to this interview. And, you know, you're the. You're the Neil that they were looking for. Right. And here you, you know, 10 years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah. The key thing, though is, you know, I will say this, mindful of that point you just made. Um, is. Is seek. Seek help.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because even I took a long time.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: To get to that point.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, that's key, you know, and it's a bit of a surrender moment, for sure. It's a. It's a big. Actually, it's a big surrender moment.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So. But. But do that, like, get to the help. Because it's out there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Sometimes it's hard to see it, sometimes it's hard to access it, but it's out there. And you just gotta, you know, surrender yourself. And there's always someone. If you can't through your own resource, generally there's someone else. And yeah, you know, the employer programs now are pretty good. Yeah. And, and you know, those points are. Yeah, those are, those are good starting

Speaker B: points, good places to start and they can usually, um, point you in the right direction. Were, were you, uh, into the cycling and the running at, at that stage like before or did that come after?

Speaker A: Um, no, that, that's always been a, A big part. I uh, mean it's, it's ebbed and flowed over the years. There's been moments, um, where I've been probably obsessed with it or too much of it. And then there were streaks where you know, I had, you know, months would go by where I preoccupied with work and kids and not spending any time on it. So um, so it, you know, it was kind of, it was always there. It just ebbed and flowed up and you know.

Speaker B: Yeah. How much of that was your medicine, would you say?

Speaker A: Well, it's part of. Our part has become all of my medicine. Uh, and let's talk a bit more about that. Yeah, yeah, sure.

Speaker B: Like what do you uh. Like, you know, I say cycling, that, that could be just like. Yeah, you know, five minutes on the bike. But I think you do a little bit more than that as some guys. So when did like, was that part of uh, was that prescriptive or was that just something that, um, you know, you found? I'm getting what I need out of this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna invest more into this. Um, and I don't know, just maybe talk a bit about like how that's helped you and how it's become the medicine, like you said.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. So 2014, going into that summer I wrote a lot. Um, and then probably that going into that weekend that I lung. That Thanksgiving weekend, I remember going for a bike ride with a couple of friends and I uh, got not even halfway into it and I just, I just realized I'm done, hit a wall. And I just said to my friends, I said, yeah, you guys go on, I'm heading back. And I literally walked the bicycle into the basement, into the furnace room and I didn't touch it for 18 months.

Speaker B: That's crazy.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I, and I remember the first day I got on it, um, when I was starting to come back, uh, from the illness and uh, but it was the coming back part that I realized that while I was going downhill and still riding the getting out of it would. Mhm. Be a big part of it. And, um, and then, and, and what happened? For me, part of the magic of getting back was medication. And. But there were so, so many different cocktails of medication that didn't work. Didn't work, didn't work. And then the one that seemed to get me back with the, the lights started going off.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: In the brain again. Yeah, it, it came with side effects. And one of the biggest side effects was weight gain. So I'm barely five foot nine. I'm, uh, maybe five foot eight and three quarters.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I, I was up to like 225 pounds.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So it was like. But it was helping here. But I was just like, yeah, I was watching myself grow. It was. Yeah, I'm not a big guy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, well, I was becoming a big guy.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And, and there I was having to wait on the bicycle, and I was going, okay, this is not so good.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense here.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, it makes sense in many ways. And then, you know, you go back to the dock and so while there's a drug for that. And I'm going, okay, so there's a drug for a drug. And a. And it was just going, man, there's. God, can we, can we give it one more shot? And they said, well, there's some risk here. You could go backwards. I said, well, let's, you know, I'll be in every week or you, you, you give me things to prove. And so it took about, it took. Probably took a good year titrating off the medication.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Slowly losing weight and then getting to a level where I didn't need to be on the medication. And, but, but physical exercise became pretty key. And whenever I wasn't doing it, you know, not, not every day, but if I went, you know, a week or two without it, uh, like that was a warning sign. Like, yeah, that's not good, Neil. And so, yeah, you have to be very self aware. Yeah, well, very disciplined when you've been in the hole.

Speaker B: Yeah, you don't, you don't, you don't,

Speaker A: you don't want to go back. And I'm not saying there were clear moments because I, I did struggle with weight coming out of that, which I never struggled before going into it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, so, uh, yeah, so. So, yeah, so I get back, I'm riding, running, um, going to the gym. And then this past, um, past summer, I did, uh, my third, uh, full distance Ironman, so. In Lake Glasson.

Speaker B: Wow, that's amazing.

Speaker A: Seventeen years after my second time doing it.

Speaker B: But yeah, you did it yeah, uh, yeah, probably like two times more than, than like, uh, most, uh, humans. And uh, you're probably like in like 5, 10% of the population that actually signs up for something like that. Yes, it's probably a smaller number.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's incredible. Um, and like, uh, you know, I, I don't, uh, I, I don't propose to be an expert in this space at all, but I know there's lots of, uh, material out there, a lot of studies around the impact of exercise, um, and the endorphin release and all the chemical hormonal, um, activity that happens as a, as a result of, of exercise, regular exercise and how important that is. And it's, it's so inspiring to hear that because, like, there's so many people in society today, uh, that are medicated and like, some need it. Right. And, and for some that, that's what needs to happen. And, and it's, it's a, the biggest blessing in their life. But it doesn't have. Not all solutions come in the format of a pill. I think that's, that's a great, that's a great takeaway. Right.

Speaker A: And I mean, I, I do want

Speaker B: to make sure we're not prescribing that like.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, like those things that are bad, but that combination of pills.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah. Was probably what got me going again.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, I don't.

Speaker B: That was the jump start.

Speaker A: I, Yeah, I got a. Almost like a. I got to make that. That, that, that point should not be lost either. It's like, for me.

Speaker B: I'm glad you said that. Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, I, Yeah. And I had, I ended up having this amazing, amazing psychiatrist. Um, and it was him and his lens and his experience and his technical, you know, medical skills and his diagnostic skill. Like, he knew. And he understood the pharmacology. He understood my chemical, electrical.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Stuff going on. And like, he, he was the one. The others didn't figure out what he figured out.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So I was a good little guinea pig after a while. It's like. But he. Yeah. What he did was remarkable. Yeah. And it was. And it was medical and, and there was therapy involved in that too. But the chemical thing had to get sorted out and he, uh, he got me back to a point where I could now do. Start doing the things I used to enjoy. And then one day aspire to going, you know what? I'm going back to work. Yeah, call then. Yeah. What? Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, let's get a date on the counter.

Speaker B: Sometimes it's just like it, like it's the little things. There's a lot of metaphors here in your story. Like going up the elevator, um, stepping out, taking that first step, accomplishing little goals.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Um, that is the building blocks to. For achieving the big things.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think athletics, sports, having healthy routines like that in your life, um, those are all building blocks for, you know, success in other areas of your life, whether that be your family life, your, your, your business life, etc, just being part of, you know, being a well rounded, joyful, uh, human being. Yeah. On this earth. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there, there's a lot there and uh, I wanted to kind of take that into. So, you know, you've found your medicine, you went through this, this valley in your life. You know, kind of back on, on the upswing here.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Rediscovering now. Okay, what, what's the next chapter for Neil M. And uh, I think this. You said there's around 2016 timeframe.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I would have went back to work in the spring. I think it was March of 2017.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Having left work Thanksgiving weekend, 2014. So.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: I think that's about two and a half years.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, uh, looking at. Coming out of like all your experience with Marsh and then now, you know, the, the insuretech scene, you know, has been around, but you kind of came in at a, at a hot period.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: When.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was, you know, that was

Speaker B: kind of reaching its, uh, its peak. Lots of deals being done, you know, pre, Preco. All that. So what was your first, uh, your first, you know, sampling for taste appetizer in the, yeah. Ah, in, in the insuretech space. But, uh.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So I, Yeah, that's interesting. I was exposed to insuretech and it wasn't called insuretech. Um, I, the term was starting to be used. So I got a little bit of. In 2011. Ish. 2010, 2011 and 2012. Um, and through a good friend, I met the founders of Trove, uh, Scott Walch, Mark Doubts and others. And uh, for whatever reason, um, I ended up spending a fair bit of time with them, introducing them to people in the insurance community in Toronto, but also in New York through my time. Your Marsh connect, my Marsh relationships in New York. And that kind of illuminated that world a little bit to me. And um, I sort of hung around that 2011, 2012 time period and then maybe a little bit into 2013. So I, I had some exposure to that. And yeah, so it was more of a curiosity thing. It wasn't like, oh, I want to Go build something in that space or be part of someone building something. And I. It was more just, oh, this is interesting. This is curious.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I tend to be a bit of a curious person. So I'll go down a bunch of

Speaker B: rabbit holes on that new wave of innovation.

Speaker A: Well, it. It was and it wasn't. I think that was the, uh. There was a fair bit of shiny object syndrome at that time, so. But anyway, it did kind of intrigue me. Yeah. And then, so fast forward, okay, I'm coming back to Mars, but maybe I m need to think about something else. Um, I mean, I wasn't concerned about not staying at Mars, but I was. It was like good friends were saying, neil, like, yeah, uh, I think you might want to think about this. Yeah. Uh, like, you need a plan B.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So, so then it became, well, what would it be? And then coincidentally, one of the things. And I think the person I was reporting to at Marsh was going, okay, what do I do with Neil? Like, really?

Speaker B: What do we do with this guy?

Speaker A: Yeah. I guess I had expressed in some of those early conversations when I was coming back about insurtech, like, what was Marsh doing? M. Why don't you spend a bit of time meeting people in the network and going to conferences and maybe coming back to us with some thoughts on what we might want to do, might not want to do. So I think they were kind of very kindly trying to help me find a path and you buy a little room, but you gave me a bone. I'll take it. So. And it was through that process that I began to realize maybe there's something here where insurance data and technology kind of come together. And not that it was going to disrupt anything, but it could actually enable insurance to be done better, faster, quicker.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Better customer experience. Um, leveraging data for information to drive knowledge, wisdom in the underwriting process. And so I went off to a lot of conferences, and I happened to be in one in the spring of. I think it was 2017 in Chicago on Ramp. And, uh, that's where I met, uh, who would become my business partner, uh, Tyree Burks.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, he being the founder of Players Health, and, uh, me wondering, okay, maybe there's something here. I mean, I was rather intrigued from the. He had built, um, an injury management abuse incident reporting application. And, uh, so let's call that a. A SaaS, an application of sorts. Um, there wasn't any visibility on the insurance. And I remember saying to him after his pitch at this conference, I went up to him afterwards and I just Looked at him and I said, do you know what you have here? And he looked at me and said, no, I'm hoping you know what I have here. And I said, well listen, if you're, if you're interested, if you're prepared, you know, I'd like you to come up to Toronto, meet some people and um, let's talk about what you have today and what it could be tomorrow. And that was the beginning of the pivot to uh, an insurance MGA specializing in sports. Youth sports.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, the rest became history very quickly.

Speaker B: That's, that's incredible. And that, that one, uh, not bad for your first bet. Uh, because uh, I think there was a recent.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was more than a bet.

Speaker B: A public announcement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, so what, like how more than a bet?

Speaker A: I think the first couple of checks might have been.

Speaker B: Yeah, but how did that change, uh, your life in the moment? Um, was that like I'm all in and you. And that question, that became like your new, your new focus where you put a lot of your energy into, um. How involved were you in the infancy stage of players health, would you say?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, first of all, I don't want to mislead you, um, or the audience for that matter, like Ty Tyre Burke, some player that. The business, the incorporated entity had been around for quite a few years before that. Um, so he had, he'd been on his journey. Um, you know my role, I think, and if we look back at it, my role was the catalyst for change.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And to take the business to a place where it could be a business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And where it could have commercial value, enterprise value.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, so I saw something, um. He obviously saw something in me too. And I think we were able to. And I say the word we. There were a lot of um, interesting enough Canadian insurance execs, insurance entrepreneurs, past, present, former.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Came in as investors, early stage investors. So if it. I went in and a number followed and uh, and I think that just gave, you know, the cushion for the business to start trying to figure out what it needed to be and how it was going to get there and actually get it to a point where it could actually go raise professional VC money in the form ultimately of a Series A. So yeah, uh, you know, I, for me it was like a gradual occupation. It became true. It was slow at first, gradual kind

Speaker B: of started as an.

Speaker A: More money as an advisor and an advisor.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then a co. Founder. And then you know, I played a pretty big role in securing the uh, I'll call it the first venture backed investment in player self. I mean, yeah, that's not by that I'm not saying I'm taking credit for it, but if I'm not there, they would have needed someone else like for sure to get.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That sort of combination of the entrepreneur and the insurance exact to you know, move the dial on the investment side. And then Covid hit life changed and uh, you know, I had to come up with Neil Mitchell 3.0.

Speaker B: So, so uh, you at that stage did you uh. So you obviously circumstances that the whole world was going through at that time certainly resonates with me. I, I, I started my, my business crash bay in 2019 just before, just before the pandemic. Uh, so um, and a lot of the things you're saying about, you know, there was, there was a company there before maybe, maybe a product, some ideas but the commercialization, the turning point, that's kind of where, where you came in. That resonates with me too. There's, there's a lot, there's a lot of similarities where I met some critical people along the way that helped us get to that next stage and we would not have gotten there without them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I as a founder and, and once you, how, once you become a co founder, you, there's a blood oath. You're in like it.

Speaker A: Oh yeah. Oh no, for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I know you're being humble but uh. And you know, it's, it's hard to tell sometimes like because it's, it's like a ship. Right. Like, you know, you pick up different people at different ports and it's hard to kind of distinguish after you're out in open sea, like who got on where. But it's like we're all here contributing and it like doesn't matter really. You were the first person on the ship or the 15th.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's like uh, we're not going to get to the next destination without all 15. So like you become as important as the first person almost.

Speaker A: Oh gosh. Um, and, and, and you're only on it for a period of time, right? Not you. Yeah, I'm only on that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You might appear at time. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I, you know, it truly, it's, you know, we talk about this every now and then, John. A, uh, Rising tide lifts all boats.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah. And in our industry it, it is truly about a rising tide lifting all the boats. And, and my venture, my first venture Players held it was a lot of rising tides and those tides were people and companies and friends and advice. Some of it was money, some of it was business relationships. Um, you know, you know, as good fortune would have it, yeah, if I don't meet Jonathan Kalman at eos and James Tootle and Sam Evans, Carl Bauer, you know, yeah, I'm out money. So, yeah, like it, uh, and you know, they are on for a ride, as are other investors. And early stage investors don't always go all the way. No, they get, uh, they get an opportunity sometimes to get out. And fortunately a lot of the early stage investors and co founders and Players Health had the good fortune of having that opportunity because that doesn't always happen in ventureland.

Speaker B: So it's a high risk business.

Speaker A: And you know, they, you know, you, you do the history on some of the ones that have made it and like, they're in it for 13, 17 years. So, yeah, the fact that, you know, I was in for seven, some of the people that are out ran for five, that's, uh, that's good fortune. And it's not about the size of the check. It's, uh, there's a saying, there's, you get no capital, you get a return of capital or you get a return on capital.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we were, you know, we were very fortunate. And it was a return on capital. And it doesn't matter how much capital and it doesn't matter how big the check or how small the check is, it's a return on capital.

Speaker B: That's a great story. Uh, Tyree, is he from Toronto?

Speaker A: No, no, he's born and raised Southside Chicago. Okay. And lives in Minneapolis. And that's where the company's head office is.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and how many Canadians were involved in that venture, uh, apart from yourself?

Speaker A: Um, well, I would have, I mean. Oh, gosh, the cap table off the

Speaker B: top of my head, it's a little murky after.

Speaker A: Well, no, I think there were probably, I don't know, 12, 14 Canadians other than myself. Um, but that, not to mention, you know, Ty's friends and family that came around before we ever showed up. Right.

Speaker B: So, um, yeah, good mix there. Um, you talked about 3.0. Um, because I know there's other portfolio companies that you've, uh, you've gotten behind and that you've supported in different ways. A few that come to mind. Uh, you know, Rome is one that you're recently involved in. You set, um, my abilities, uh, three motion AI. Three motion AI. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Thermally.

Speaker B: Yeah. Back when I interviewed Reed.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, three motion. Thank you for that. Um, and I, I'm sure there's others that I'm missing, but, uh, talk a bit about like. Okay, so players health pandemic. You decided. All right, I'm, I'm in this insuretech advisor, investor, co founder. I've kind of switched to being a full time entrepreneur slash investor advisor. Now. What, uh, you know, was there ever a question in your mind that you would go back to, like, oh, maybe I'll just go back to being corporate executive or an investor or. Was it clear to you at this stage that no, I'm, I'm all in. I need to do more of this. I kind of found like a new superpower almost.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That I didn't even know I had.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean I. You're being kind. I don't think it's a superpower or,

Speaker B: or maybe a new addiction.

Speaker A: Yeah. Actually, I think people might say that. Right. Like, I think it's okay I have an addictive personality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, Yeah, I don't think it's ever really been. I mean I, I think we all go on a journey and I think maybe as one gets older and I'm a bit older than you, so you. Um. I look at things differently today than I did when I was, say, in my 30s and 40s as it relates to career and what I do. And I almost see myself a little bit like a tent maker in a way. And um, it, it, it, you just, you, you. I think for me, just being attentive to opportunities and, but being very clear and intentional about what you want to do with those opportunities. And so I think this world of call it early stage investor, advisor, I mean that's got a bit of, uh, a shelf life on it because. Yeah, you can only put so many checks down and then your utility is done. Yeah. Now your value is how can you contribute to what you've invested in.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And um, so there's, so there's that. And then, uh, the corporate side, I like, I consult and um, I enjoy that. That keeps me kind of, um, involved in that corporate world.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And um, and that has a lot of benefits both ways. And I, I tend to think that the consulting, the knowledge that you bring from your past, like call it the 27 years at Marsh.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the seven or eight years as in venture land, in various roles, co, founder, investor, uh, advisor. And really secure raising capital for a venture, um, that goes into the mix. I find that kind of leads you into consulting. Right. Like that, kind of. Like that's.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's a, it's a knowledge business and we kind of have to have the journey and the experiences 100% to then add the value to the situations that are in front of you.

Speaker B: So it's that culmination of that body of knowledge that is now useful to someone.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I, So yeah, you know, tomorrow could be a different day, but, um, I kind of roll that way.

Speaker B: So what, like, what's your sweet spot with, you know, like some of the companies that we named and, and you know, feel free to, to elaborate on any of the ones that you might want to highlight here. But um, you know, you talked about, you know, being a tent maker and I, my mind, I know we promised we wouldn't talk about politics today, um, but you know, my mind kind of goes to policy. Yeah, yeah, you know, building a big tent. And you have to do that with companies too. Right. Like, you know, um, you know, you, we also have to put up defensive moats at times too. But um, you know, uh, so that is, that's uh, a very important skill. And I'm speaking as a, as a founder, like even, you know, my role as a CEO of CrashBay, like, I need to attract people like you that can build tents because that's how we get to the next stage. Right. And I think that that resonates with a lot of the people that have come on this podcast that are also founders that like, okay, we need to find those, those people that have those connections that can help us because ultimately that's where you kind of transition from being an idea to a product, to a company. Yep.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's sustainable and scalable and uh, all those where, you know, where do you want to go with like highlighting, you know, some of the things that you're involved with and maybe some of the things that you're doing that are exciting to you today. Yeah. And um, and yeah, if there's anything like, uh, there that you want to highlight specifically at the company level. Because, Because I know like, I know a bit about some of these portfolio companies, but maybe just. Yeah, give us like. And you know, if you want to talk about your favorite.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, they're all favorites.

Speaker B: That's like picking a favorite child. Right?

Speaker A: Where Zelda is a big favorite.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For many reasons. Um, yeah, yeah, no, I, if I think of it like just, um, I, I think, um, reasonably good, not very good, but reasonably good at, um, I think identifying talent.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And opportunity. Mhm. I'm not, and I'm not saying I'm great at it. By the way, I didn't say I was very good at it. I said I'm reasonably good because there's a lot of hits and then there's a lot of misses on that point. But I think the hits have been more than the misses for me so far.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. And I think I, I kind of stumbled into it with Tyree because what I saw in him was an exceptionally smart, gifted, hard working and articulate individual. I'm not trying to put him up on this big pedestal that might sound. I am. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of weaknesses there for me and for him and for others. But you, you're always looking for, okay, what, what's special here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and just the scrappiness and the grit.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So when I sort of look at him as a profile.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Of a founder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now what he didn't have, I mean, he had his personal experience with the business and the struggle and that, that, that has great value too.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Then you sort of take that and then you start looking at, uh, these other ventures that I'm involved with and I look and I see people with. In one, in another venture who. It's their first time, first venture. Uh, but they bring a lot of domain experience. Like they know the business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like a mechanic knows the car.

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And

Speaker B: that person.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. Then is solving for a problem. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, but. And that person has similar attributes as the first person I described. So that, that runs through all of them. That, uh, intentional hard work, um, sacrifice, grit. And actually very good with people. Like relational skills. Like very exceptionally good at that. And so you keep going down the line and then you come across the next one and they have that. But then they, their difference is it's not their first rodeo.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the previous ones have been successful.

Speaker B: But there's a common denominator there across.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of look for that and then underneath that or below that or above it, whatever is next is, you know, do they have any revenue?

Speaker B: Sure. Yeah.

Speaker A: And is it month over month, year over year? Um, and how much money have they put into the venture? And who's on the cap table and how. Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Who are, you know, who are strategics, if there are any strategics? Often there is. And you dig, you dig through that cap table and you ask a lot of questions and you find out, oh my goodness, that person wrote a check and you're. They're an advisor and uh, you meet with them on a regular basis. Oh, okay. You know, so you tend to go like as you know, my first VC once said to me, said Neil, the difference between venture and private equity is venture. Well we tear the rear view. Well there is no rear view mirror. Like it's all about out the front

Speaker B: window, burn the boats as you say.

Speaker A: Whereas private Equity, you got five years of experience, 10 years of financial statements and you can financially engineer or re. Engineer something. Venture is, it's all about going forward.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah.

Speaker A: So you know that, that forward mentality and uh, so you know I could ramble on about. Yeah, there's the, the commonalities of them and you know, what to look for in your due diligence process. Um, I think there's, I would say that at least those and I can think of others but yeah, probably don't have enough time for that.

Speaker B: There's a level of relentlessness uh, that needs to be there. And you know, you said you know, scrappiness. And uh, I think it's hard sometimes for founders to get out of that scrappy mode because they're so used to doing everything from taking out the garbage to doing the finances, the marketing, know the pitching and everything in between and then as it becomes a bigger company, transitioning out of that into more of like a, a uh, senior leader role that can go down into the weeds when they need to. Um, but you said something about like when you were talking about the common denominators across the board and I'm really interested to get your opinion on this. In the insuretech space. Um, if they're true insuretech you get a lot of technical founders who, who may have the domain expertise or, or even be like a, like a coder, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and, and, and have that, that skill set but their interpersonal skills might, might be lacking. Yeah but they're the founder and you know they're, they're the self proclaimed CEO. They may not have built their co founder team yet. Have you come across any of those where. And you know like how important is it to have that self awareness do you think? Because um. Can you be successful in this space without the per. The interpersonal skills do you think? Um, and you know it's hard to say like what's more important, the technical domain expertise or the personal or you gotta have both. And like how do you, how do you close that gap? Missing one or the other. What, what do you think?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, and, and I guess someone who has you know, if you ask this question to probably someone in a venture firm, they'd have A better answer on this. Um, they just see more stuff, more deals, um, and do more deals. I think what I've gotten involved with and will get involved with in the future is I don't know if it's been self selected or I, I don't really. I haven't had to ponder that too often.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And I think it just because if I think of those ventures that I'm involved with, they, they, I wouldn't say they've nailed it.

Speaker B: They got their together.

Speaker A: They, they tend to uh, like they're doing a really good job. Like they.

Speaker B: But doesn't that speak to like the

Speaker A: apparently really good at what they do.

Speaker B: But does that speak to the importance of like. I guess what I'm getting to is because there's this vision of the Superman CEO or the superhero CEO that has it all together and it can do everything. Um, and I don't think that that is always the case and always needs to be the case but I think the non negotiable for me at least and what I've seen you know, sitting in my seat not just as a founder but ah. But as a you know, insuretech community organizer.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Is that if you don't have it you got to go out and find the people that do and build that, that bench around you, that founder team and then empower them um, to be good at.

Speaker A: I mean that counts that you know there's. And courses, different course courses and, and different parts of the journey. Um, I think that the challenge for a founder of a venture M is kind of knowing when um, the dynamic of that team needs to change and maybe themselves to be honest with you. Um, I, I haven't seen that but I just. That's been my limited experience but I, I can see as a business goes from zero to a million dollars ARR. To 3 million to 5 million to being you know, very regional, to being national, maybe being outside of country.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You're just going to have to naturally bring in team and members and then depending on the composition of your board, how diluted the founders have become then the board may be saying hey we, we still want you M but we need to hire this 20 year experienced individual who's been doing this for the last 20 years and does it really good. And we need to do this to get it to the promised land. Right. Yeah. And uh, that's just a natural evolution in any business. So the challenge I think for early stage to mature stage is that that journey and as a large company goes through it a Very small to a very large company will go through it at some point. I, I just haven't seen that yet. Right. Like my experience.

Speaker B: You said something.

Speaker A: Not saying it doesn't exist. I just, I haven't gotten there as an investor. Um, you know, um, how important do

Speaker B: you think it is to build that board? Uh, and at what stage that knows what success looks like and um, can, can kind of be that, I guess, navigational beacon for. Because like a lot. A common denominator amongst a lot of early stage CEOs is they're. They're starters.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: They know how to start things. They're Ikea, uh, people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That, ah, doesn't necessarily mean they're the right person to bring it to ipo, necessarily. Maybe they're good up to Series A. But after Series A, how important is that? Like had you.

Speaker A: Have you, I don't know, seeing the

Speaker B: board playing a really impactful role in the companies you've been involved in or.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that really comes down to really very specific scenarios because, you know, there's a lot of companies that have grown that have the same CEO as they did when that CEO was the founder. Right. Like so.

Speaker B: And sometimes they bring the CEO back.

Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Um, they lose that. Uh, I think that really. I think the board conversation is an interesting one and I think the VCs have a very big role to play in that and they will dictate that.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, I, I don't, uh, you know, I'm, I have a little bit of experience on. In that space to be dangerous with that, uh, comment. But I think as a, as the capital providers, the uh, the, the equity capital M, they at a certain point they're either hitting those marks or they're not. And either you're the guy or you're not the guy. And if you're not, who is? And if you're really important to the business, I. E. Not. Not to talk too soft, but like the spiritual leader of the organization. Maybe we don't want you to leave.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: We got to keep you. Yeah. Uh, because we like you being out there. But yeah. We really got to run this with a guy or a girl who has the chops and has done this before and does it every three years.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and we just had her in a venture.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And she's turned around three and she's coming in and you're not going out, but you're going over here.

Speaker B: That's a really good.

Speaker A: And it's going to help you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because we're going to get somewhere and you still got shares and you know, we'd like to get this valuation and

Speaker B: could be an integral part of the brand. Like, like even in the customer's eyes and the industry's eyes.

Speaker A: But I, like, I'm not, that's not my world that like, that's a level, a good level or two above where I like to play.

Speaker B: I think it's. You know what though, Neil? I think it's good perspective for you to even share because this might be things that, um. Like I wasn't thinking about those things five or six years ago when I was starting my venture. Uh, yeah, I was, I was just thinking about getting my first customer. Sure. Right. And uh, and you know, bringing that first dollar and just to shift gears here maybe to kind of start closing things off. I, I was, I'm really curious, like, you know, you've gone through, we've gone through the arc, the origins in the insurance career and then you know, the, the, the personal, um, mental health crisis that you've dealt with and, and you know, how you worked your way through that and then, you know, going back into, you know, the office starting 2.0, you're journey into insure tech, which kind of started with Players Health 3.0, started expanding your portfolio. What's next for you? And, and, and, and maybe like we can think about also your point of view on where do you see this, this industry growing and you know, how optimistic are you about, uh, you know, the growth here? Just in this industry, but you know, maybe in Canada as well. But yeah, start wherever you want. But like, I want to kind of like maybe close off thinking about like. Yeah, what does the future look like? Yeah, I think the future is bright, personally.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know it's very bright. I mean, when you think of insurance, and I'll be specific, commercial property and casualty insurance, I mean it has, it's got a grow, it has a growing tan. Um, risk is all around us. We've got new risks. We've got. Yeah, like, and that's the amazing thing about commercial property casualty insurance is everything's changing. And there's that. That requires insurance capital that inquires brokers and MGAs coming up with new products, new solutions. Um, so I, I'm like, I'm like, I'm a real biased person on this. But to me, this industry, the commercial property and casualty industry is dynamic, innovative, creative, and it's actually incredibly financially successful. Like, you look at Marsha's stock price, you look at Aon Stock price. You, any of the publicly traded insurance brokers. Um, like there's a reason why. And then if you look at the private guys, whether it's the small guy around the corner on that street or a regional or a national or international. Privately owned. They make a lot of money. Yeah, they make a lot of money.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And there's a reason why they make a lot of money.

Speaker B: Because there's a lot of risk.

Speaker A: There's a lot of risk and there's a lot of brokers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they all somehow are able to make a lot of money.

Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so it's a, it's a very creative, intellectually creative business.

Speaker B: You don't want to have a talk about commissions, do you?

Speaker A: And it's. And it's a very financially successful. Yeah. Franchise. Um, so I, it's a beautiful thing. Um, and I think it is. I think maybe it's a good reason, maybe it's a bad reason. It's too bad that more younger people don't realize that because, you know, as the joke goes, you know, we all kind of fell into this industry. I had most of it. I had the good fortune of having some friends help me fall into it. But I, uh, think it's like you can be so successful in this industry dealing with a niche. Either an industry like a type ah of business niche or a coverage niche. DNO E&O. Environmental, professional liability, Cyber. Yeah. Uh, like I started in the business when you couldn't. You had a difficult time selling environmental liability and dno. Right now it's like buying your CGL policy. Right. Like you don't have it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, uh, you need it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So there, like there's just this ongoing, you know, everyone's talking about. Not everyone, but a lot of people are now talking about parametric.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it'll, it'll over time, maybe not the next five years, but young person coming into this industry today. Yeah. Uh, ten years from now, they'll be doing a lot of parametric insurance, uh, placements just like cyber today is. But go back 10, 15 years ago, no one was doing it.

Speaker B: How do you feel about the, the early stage, uh, the early stage investment environment and just the activity that's going on in, in the insuretech space, the early teaching insuretech space in particular in Canada.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Does it excite you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I, I guess once you put your name out there a little bit and then people connect the dots and they figure out, oh, you were involved with that venture and can I talk to you couldn't I send you a deck. And so I, I think there's a lot going on. Um, not. I say, I think I know there's a lot going on. I see a lot going on. Um, I think the challenge is more on the funding side at pre seed and seed. I think, uh, once you crawl into series A and yen, you have a product market fit and you've got some good month over month, year over year financial metrics and the unit economics, they may not be right, but with a VC can look at that and go a tweak here, a tweak there and we can get that thing going. Series A, I think it's more the precede seed area that is challenging. Potentially a cause for concern. And um, that, that, that, that needs help. That for insure texts, they need that, but they also need.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: People to help them understand that in order to even be successful at pre and Seed. Yeah. Uh, there's got to be a business here for sure. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I think, I think insurtech has went through that phase where shiny object.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now like I wasn't at ITC this year, but the year before everyone was talking about profitability M which was amazing. Which was wonderful. But so we went from just throwing stuff out there. Yeah. With a hope and a prayer to actually, do we have a business here?

Speaker B: Yeah. And when does this thing become profitable

Speaker A: or is it profitable? Yeah. Um. So, uh, yeah, I think it's, I mean I'm very positive about the opportunity and, and everything goes through a cycle. You know, this happens in business, happens in politics, it happens. Some of the stuff we're going through right now and things go in cycles and I, um, think we're coming into a good cycle.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. The interest rates are coming down. I think there'll be more access to capital. Um, you know, a lot of early stage founders have to self fund.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Uh, so if that means. And that's a good thing, remortgaging your house. Well, that's how you know you're all in. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: You know.

Speaker A: Yeah. As a, as a pre seed seed investor, I kind of asked that question. Right. Like how long have you bootstrapped? How much have you put in? Yeah. Do you have a mortgage? Uh, or a line of credit? Are you using it?

Speaker B: Yeah. How committed are you really?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Well that, that's ultimately, that's the great test. Right. And, and if you looked at any small business owner and removed this term fintech and, or insuretech. Yeah. And just Said, you know, any of these shop owners.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: They don't live unless they put their life savings into it. And yeah. Then they go, yeah, and they got to make money.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so whether it's the Insurtech brand or the fintech brand, it, it's is, is there a business here? Are we going to make money? Are the investors going to get an exit? Is the founder and the founding team going to get a nice little exit? Are they, you know, like, that's, yeah. That ultimately is the purpose of the.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Investment, if you will.

Speaker B: And there's got to be focus and commitment. And I think you, you said, uh, you know, one of your quotes, maybe in one of, one of your blog posts was something about, there are, there are no safe bets. There are no, no safety nets. There's no looking back.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, I'm sure that's one of the common things you look for in founders.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Uh, it's a scary moment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: As a founder, when you really have to just cut everything else off and just, and just go deep and burn a boat.

Speaker A: This.

Speaker B: And burn the boats. But that's when the magic happens too. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: And, and I'm not that person. Right. Like, I've, I had, uh, an experience with that first venture and, uh, like, I don't see myself as that person either. Right. Like, I, I, I, Yeah. It's not for everyone. I know my, I think I know my lane.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's not to run a business or.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Be the founder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, that's, those days are far, far behind me.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you have a lot of value add, Neil. I, I took away a lot from this conversation. I know our audience will. There's a lot of life lessons in here, a lot of metaphors. Um, you know, I'll go back to one of the comments that you said earlier in the interview about, uh, I think you were, you were just talking about cycling and, you know, you're going down that hill, but you eventually got to, you got to get up the hill.

Speaker A: Rant.

Speaker B: So, um, you know, you've kind of, uh, you've left us all here with a message of hope, and I think it's really appropriate here that you were able to come out of a pretty deep value. And there's a message of hope right around Christmas. Right. So be on December 20th. It's a great time of year to talk about hope. So. Yeah. Thank you for everything. You've contributed. Well, not just to the interview today, but to the, uh, to the community here in Canada and internationally.

Speaker A: Well, and, and thank you. You know, to exchange a little bit in that, um, I mean, you've created a forum, a community, and, uh, it's cool that so many people have been around this mic with you and it. I want to encourage you to keep it up. I know it's extraordinary hard. Father, husband, got four kids. You're building a cross border business. You're waving this flag. So, um, you know, chapeau. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you, Neil.

Speaker A: Merry Christmas.

Speaker B: Pleasure. Merry Christmas to you, too, as well.

Speaker A: All right, thanks.

Speaker B: Thanks again, Neil. Yeah, appreciate it.

Speaker A: All right.