Find 'hire value' with your insurance talent

Speaker A: You're listening to the Insurance podcast with Pete Tessier and Kurt Wyatt, brought to you by First Insurance Funding of Canada, the innovator in insurance payments.

Speaker B: Okay, you can't go to an insurance conference, ah, right now without someone talking about the talent crisis and insurance. And we're here to talk about that finally. All talent all the time. And we've got a great guest. Her name's Shel Billinghurst and she is president founder of Hire Value Higher as an hire recruitment specialist. And she actually has a podcast ta actually talent acquisition actually. And we're going to talk about some of the things she's observed with insurance and why she's kind of focusing on it and sort of the lens she's got around. Maybe what we're not doing right and why we're consistently in this industry stuck saying we can't find enough talent. And she's got some great insights, particularly when it comes to the color bland. I said that on purpose. Now Shelly's, she's a big personality, lots of fun and she's got some really interesting truths about why our ads and insurance don't really drive a lot of interest, how you can improve them and a whole bunch of other things. And this is kind of a neat take because there's so much energy and talk put onto this. We talk about culture, we talk about everything and yet we don't really focus on some of the easy to correct things when it comes to attracting talent and retaining it. So I'm super excited to get there. Now look, uh, we also talk about all sorts of things. We talk about sponsors and we don't do this without sponsors. And you got to remember, first pay is first Canada's easy to implement suite APIs because you know, API connectivity is now all the ratio. In fact, we might even be able to do it out of broker management system soon. So integrate all methods of payment into your workflow, app, uh, website or portal. Increase your efficiency, close business faster. Bespoke Payments is where it's at and you're going to improve your client experience. You can trust the secure and in market solutions from the leader in insurance payments. That's First Canada. Also give the guys that take on risk a shout. Um, you're looking for capacity, you're looking for solutions, you're looking for someone who picks up the phone as an MGA partner. That's them. They come along and help you where you need help on your terms, with capacity, with underwriting expertise and with communication. They want to work with you. T A Y C O N. CA that's take on risk. So, look, not going to ramble on too long. Uh, Shelly's great. It's always fun to get on a podcast with another podcaster because not only do we talk too much, but we talk like we're old friends. Even though this is our first time meeting, I can't wait to have my appearance on Shelly's podcast. So let's bring her in here and welcome, uh, to the show.

Speaker C: So now we're live with Shelley Billinghurst, and Shelly is the president of, uh, Higher Value, which is a great name. I love that.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker C: And she also is a podcaster and she has her own podcast called TA actually, which is talent acquisition. Right?

Speaker E: Yes, it is.

Speaker C: Yes, that's it. So, Shelly, thanks for jumping on with us. And we are going to talk about recruitment and insurance and what's going on. So you have your own podcast for recruitment, hiring and, you know, and given that, especially in the minefield of fun out there right now, what made you intrigued about maybe the most backwards, upside down industry that we call insurance?

Speaker E: Um, so glad you asked. Um, easy target. Um, so no, truly, I thought, okay, what is an industry that constantly complains that they can't find the right talent? Something that is pretty much recession proof. Um, but I think most importantly, I was just absolutely intrigued with the fact that they're a risk adverse industry. So I thought, let's take a deep dive and take a look at what is it that they're doing in the industry to attract talent to. To either be. Enter the industry, um, or pivot and go into the industry early career. So, so that's why it's a very. It's, uh, everyone knows and everyone has to have it. Everyone knows what insurance is. Yeah.

Speaker C: And look, no one has ever grown up and said, oh, boy, I want to grow up and go into insurance. Maybe Kurt, he might be the odd one. But no one. Your high school career guidance counselors don't say, go work in insurance. Don't be an insurance broker, don't be an actuary, don't be in. You know, they never tell you to be an adjuster. It's like the industry that is kind of the backbone of everything in the economy, yet no one really guides you there for any reason.

Speaker E: Yes, true, true. Uh, unless you have a family member. Right. And then you realize that this is a very lucrative career.

Speaker C: Yeah, they're very persuasive. That's how we both ended up into it. Is it family members? Yeah, that's exactly it. Family. You know, someone did it. And you know, a father, father in law, mother, whatever, they pull you in and you start working summers and you know, doing weird things and I don't care. What was your first job when you started working in the brokerage?

Speaker F: Oh, don't even ask. I think it was like cleaning. So don't.

Speaker E: Emptying the garbage.

Speaker F: It goes back there. Oh, for sure. Yeah, exactly. I mean, uh, let's face it, both uh, Pete and I had, you know, the good opportunity to work within a family organization, grow it, learn about uh, the business industry through people who had, you know, uh, had all the scars and, and stories, uh, to go along with it. And I think that in many industries have that. But fortunately for the insurance industry, it, it still exists today that people can, like Pete said earlier, stumble into the industry, uh, and, and have a terrific career. Right. That, that can be very rewarding, is very community minded industry. It does a lot for uh, what help, uh, help the economy and the big picture of Canada and other countries around the world. So you know, I guess for you, how did you find, uh, the change from recruitment and then entering into the insurance space? What did you see that kind of made it unique to you?

Speaker E: So, so what we did was we, we took a look at the career pages of um, insurance companies across Canada. And what we wanted to, I mean, just, just nosy, I guess. So we took a look at the career pages and what we found was shocking. It was um, the career pages. Now this is whether it was brokerage, whether it was insurer direct, uh, straight all the way across and across Canada. And what we found was that they all said the same thing. So Kurt, it's like, um, you decide to paint your house, or you decide to paint the inside of your house and you go look at beige, all different shades of beige. They all look the same on the wall, but they all have different names. And that's what the job seeker experience is. Right now if I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to pivot. And somebody told me, you can make a really good living in insurance. How do you choose which firm to go work for? How do you decide? Because quite frankly, they're all beige. It's just. They've got different names, but they're all the same and they say the exact same thing. 100% of them say the same thing in trying to attract someone. So I mean, how do you pick? Well, who pays the most? It's as simple as that.

Speaker C: Oh, it's like shopping for insurance. Which is the cheapest premium, right? Like that's the differentiator. It comes down to the dollar sign. You know, it's funny you say beige Shelley, because I've always said that if you had to paint insurance with a color, it would be called bland. The favorite color of insurance is bland. So you did this report and you sort of. What are some of the other conclusions? Because I think this is sort of something the insurance industry needs to learn about itself, that it sort of gets often wrapped up in its own sort of, you know, bubble of what it understands about itself. And I've often said that. Well, that's. I'm going to save this for the next question. So what should we understand from m. The other conclusions in this report? Because we know what our own are. What do you see being an outsider?

Speaker E: Um, well, first of all, there's no receipts. There's lots of big, bold claims, and everyone claims. So, listen, nobody said that we're not a diverse workplace, but where's the receipts? Show me. Like, how, how do you. How can every, like, 10 out of 10 claim to be a diverse workplace? Um, but there's no proof because they all say the same thing, right? So it's the safe thing to say. Um, there's no receipts when. Yeah, we offer, um, great benefits. Wow, that's groundbreaking. Knife found in kitchen. Um, no kidding. Uh, you're an insurance company. Um, where's the receipts? You know, like, it's. It's just this really safe language that, um, that everyone uses. But there's no, um, there's no real proof of what it's like to live there in their beige house.

Speaker F: Well said. And so when you talk about that and you talk about the industry as it continues to grow and mature, and we have to prove to people what the benefit is by coming into it. What is your feeling that this industry does, uh, differently, or shall I say, what's your feeling towards how this industry has a tendency to do a poor job of bringing people in? Because so many people get shifted around within the industry, almost like an NHL team, where players get traded from one team to another, or a manager gets played traded from one team to another, but they really don't. You don't really hear a lot of new names, you know, except for at the start of the season. So how do you guys relate to that? And how do you feel that the industry is doing as far as not looking beige to the rest of the world when they think about joining this industry?

Speaker E: So do you know. So there's really three choices that organizations have, right? So it's either get them young and grow them yourself, um, or buy them, that is rent them part time, or you go to a search firm and you pay whatever they ask. And So I spent 10 years as, as an executive search. And so, you know, it's an old recruiting. I mean that's how we, they make a living, is figure out who's not happy. I mean, what's the true story? And that's who you start to hit. That's where you headhunt from. But listen, if you're going to start that war, if you're going to shoot the first shot and start taking people from competitors, you know, that's very short term thinking. Very short term. Because it's only a matter of time before the tables are turned. And it's not unique to insurance. It happens in a lot of industries. Unless somebody decides we are going to do things differently, we are actually going to. And I'm not saying, um, go out and hire a marching band. I'm saying, uh, be authentic about what it's like because you can't tell me that working at one firm is the same everywhere. It's not. But yet they're all saying the same thing. You know, like, if I went to work for, you know, one of the big insurers, you mean to tell me that everything I do would be the same if I went to my competitor? Well, no, it's not.

Speaker C: It's not.

Speaker E: So own it. Own it and tell the market, tell job seekers. You know, if you have that sort of culture where, you know, it's, it's high pressure, tons of decisions, then own it. Because for some people, that is the perfect place to be. They, they would, they would feel suffocated if they were at, uh, you know, something that was very regimented and you stay in your lane and, you know, like, don't do 51% of your job because now you're going to outshine everyone. If that's what it is, then own it and have that be your messaging and you will attract the right people and repel the wrong ones.

Speaker C: So, Shelley, when you start hearing about this idea of this constant sort of, I guess, pilfering of talent across the industry, people moving around and stuff, what does that tell you about the way we look at talent when it comes to identifying it? And then the most important part, retaining it. Because retention is one of the biggest key metrics that insurance entities use on their actual business, which is insurance policies and clients. How many do you retain year over year? Do you think they apply, like, based on what you've discovered, do you think they apply that to employees too?

Speaker E: So do you know, there's um, what it screams to me, Pete, is no strategy. They don't have a strategy. Um, and so that's why you just simply move people around, um, trade them from team to team, hoping that when they join your team they can reproduce the results that they were on their last team. And that rarely works. It rarely works. And so the um, retention metric, it's a double edged sword, Pete, because retention can also mean you've got no fresh thinking, you've got no diversity of thought because you are, um, uh, keeping the people that you have too long. Right? Times change, technology changes. So there's a healthy, there's a healthy percentage of turnover. And knowing what that is is the important metric to understand. Because sometimes low turnover is a bad thing.

Speaker C: Interesting. I'd never thought of that. And that's something that I think a lot of insurance people are very nervous about is losing a number of people because maybe they were low performers, weren't the right fit. Choose your methodology. But then having no one to do the work. Now one of the interesting things I learned through my career is the term hire slowly fire quickly. Is that still accurate? And should that be something people should think about?

Speaker E: We're still talking transactions, Pete. We're still thinking. That's very transactional. It's very short term. Um, you know, versus having a strategy. Okay, what will you do today to ensure that you get off this hamster wheel? Because that's what you're on, right? Like either I go to a headhunter and there's blood on their hands because I didn't actually steal them, the headhunter did it. Right. That's, that's. They'll always be in business for that reason. Um, but the not having an actual strategy. What are you going to do today to ensure that you have the talent that you need? That when you have a low performer that is dragging the rest of your team down with them, that you can let them go on their way. The kindest thing you can do. They can't be happy if you're a low performer, they're never happy. Right? So it's, it's having, um, you know, what are you going to do this year that makes sure three years from now this isn't going to continue to happen? Because to simply think, you know, higher, slower, I mean, be certainly have a process and a methodology, but that's always reactionary. It's tactical, right? That's transactional,

Speaker F: Shelly. That's Interesting to hear you say a number of these points because. And Pete's had to listen to this story. Our listeners have had to, as well as that. Both Pete and I came out of brokerages where, you know, we were in a jurisdiction where there was always a shortage of talent. And instead of getting caught up in that sort of rehiring of people who'd already been in the industry, what we did is we took the approach that we were going to hire 10 new people to the industry every so many months, a year, and with the expectation that by the end of a year or the end of three months, that we would keep roughly, uh, about half of those. So there was always this sort of feeling that no one can really pick the best candidates the first time. So when you hire your group of 10, you don't know that there's probably three or four in there that might have just slipped in under the radar, that you didn't really pick the right group. And then after that, it was usually within, um. So always had three weeks, uh, three months, and then three years. But you would ultimately get to a point where by the end of the year or the end of two years, that group of five or six that were left over, we always found that it was sort of like three core people came out of that, and that maybe two or three drifted off or maybe they left, or we chose to let them leave. But it was very interesting because if you did it long enough, I think we ran that for about 10 years, that you really started to see how being intentional about hiring and not just keeping people who, uh, showed up, but rather fit the culture, met all the goals, and all that stuff really started to change the dynamic of the organization. And how do you feel that would fit? And I'm going back because that's about 10 years ago now. Could you still do that today? Is there enough, uh. Are there enough people out there looking for jobs, or is it such that people can just pick whatever job they want these days?

Speaker E: Oh, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all. Um, the market shifts, right? And so when we look at the last time, it was what we call a job seekers market, where. True. You know, if I've got great core skills, I do have more choice, uh, of where I want to work, so. But it's the opposite right now. It is very much an employer's market. There are more candidates, more job seekers than there are open positions. So, I mean, it's an interesting strategy, Kurt, and a very expensive one. When you talk about hiring, um, and onboarding 10 people or a cohort of 10 at a time, um, it is a very expensive way to do things. So, um, I wish I had your money because I can solve anybody's problem with that kind of money. Well, you know, that's a very expensive approach.

Speaker F: Yeah. I mean, and I say within three months. I mean, you know, you, you kind of, you know, three months was the outside, right, because you had a, you had an agreement that said that, um, it was, it was, uh. What was the word for it? Like they were in training. Ah, mode. Or there's another word for that. But, um, you know, for the first three months that we didn't have to give reason to. Probation. Take that was the word I was. Probation. See, it's been this long. Um, but, um, I say that, but it's funny, right? Because I always said three days, three months, three years. Like generally speaking, you knew within three days who was going to make it and who weren't like it. It's that gut feeling you get when you meet people. If you know your company well enough and you go into a room with other people. I would say if you hung out with them for three days, you'd know if those people are going to fit your company.

Speaker E: Yes. Uh, and I think recruiters will tell you the same thing because I, I sat in the recruiter chair for years and, um, before I started my firm. And uh, and I can tell you the, the old saying is you can tell a person's character by their first day of work and their last day of work. And so it's really character that you're talking about. I mean, it's, it's, um. Do they have the knowledge? You didn't hire them expecting that they would be experts in insurance law. Right. Like it's. You just didn't. Then what you're really talking about is do they have that magic formula of being, ah, self driven and just that hunger to learn and demonstrate that the ROI on me is going to be tenfold? Um, is there a way now to predict that HR is forever throwing out this assessment and that there's a whole industry around psychometric assessment, but it still won't ever predict how someone will perform when surrounded by a unique group of other humans? It just won't.

Speaker C: So let's. Okay, I had another question, but I want to go down this alley, this rabbit hole, Shelley. Um, if we know who is a good employee or team member, whatever you want to call them, I'm going to call them employees because that's what we all are. Eventually someone employs us and we know what they do and we can have our measurements on them, we have our metrics on what makes them effective at what they do in their role. Is it not worth understanding who they are behind the scenes and what makes them tick? That we can say this is what we need to figure out, uh, when we want to bring like minded people and to make this group of individuals work together. Is that something that companies should be doing? Because I've tried it once. It wasn't easy, but at least we got somewhere to say we could ask better questions at the beginning. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Is it even

Speaker C: a, uh, reasonable proposition

Speaker E: to do best practice? That's exactly what you would do, is have a, the more clarity you have around who is successful, how do you measure success? And before you ever post your job, you've got absolute clarity on what you're looking for. You won't miss. That is the secret sauce of the recruitment industry, of talent acquisition. It is. If I can get absolutely, you can absolutely articulate to me what it looks like, how they behave, what skills they bring, then you will hit the mark every time in finding that person. Now, if you're trying to find 10 of those people, uh, does it scale? I mean, it just means you've got a solid process and you always follow the recipe on that process, never waver.

Speaker C: Yeah. So earlier you talked about, um, the, the great description of beige. We'll go down with B words. I use bland. And now we're going to talk about job postings because I want to come back to that. Okay, they're beige, they're bland, they're boring, they're. I don't know, what's another B word? Need to be better at my alliteration right now.

Speaker E: So

Speaker C: what do you think could be better about insurance job postings and what do you think those postings say about the industry? Uh, right now to prospective applicants who may not necessarily be an experienced insurance professional, but someone who could be a valuable employee if they saw things differently.

Speaker E: So unfortunately. Well, so here's the good news, is

Speaker C: that there's good news.

Speaker E: Well, the insurance industry has not cornered the market on bland job advertising. Here's. I'll tell you the truth. This is where it starts. You've got a job description which is a legal document that protects the organization from low performers. And it's also used as a guide for promotion. How do you know somebody's ready to be promoted to the next level? That's a job description. Now here's where, here's where there is a chronic problem and again, where it's so easy to win at the game of, uh, talent attraction, because it is sheer laziness, absolute laziness. You take the job description, you slap it up on the Internet and you pray that somebody's going to read it and apply to it. Um, and you pray that they're a good quality individual. Whereas quite frankly, a job advertisement should be just that, it should advertise and speak to your ideal audience. That's not the purpose of a job description. Like they're two separate things, documents a job ad should attract.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker E: And a job description is what you use when you have to call in legal.

Speaker C: So I, I sort of asked this question because I just want to tell my own story about this because the podcast is really about me. Um, I've used some of the craziest language and job descriptions because I said I always wanted to stand out. And when I was running a brokerage before, I sort of went full time into other ventures. You know, I said to our HR team, I said, we have to just stand out. We have to say things differently so people take notice of us. We don't want to sound like everyone else. So now you're sort of in the white noise with everyone else. So I've used terms like swashbuckling, I've used terms like, um, you know, go into battle and things like that. About what I'm looking for people to describe how we approach solving problems. Right. It's different. It means. Some people have said it sounds absolutely nuts, but we got a lot of applicants and that sort of, um, a, ah, thing that is very challenging to do is to find a number of applicants that are suitable. Right. Like, anything to sort of differentiate yourself is, um, a massive advantage, I think. So when you look at this, what are some of the things in. So aside from being beige and bland and boring, what are some of the key things that you're seeing in these ads that maybe people in the insurance industry could pick up on and change? Where would you start redirecting them?

Speaker E: So, uh, bullet points. Let's start there real simple. If a job description has 30 bullet points, it means you're throwing everything in the kitchen sink into, into one posting. Um, I know 30 years in the, in the talent acquisition business. Pete, I'm telling you, every job has basic three major responsibilities. These are things that you need to do to get the work done. And so if, if you break it down into what are those three key things and describe what is the work, why it needs to be done and how it gets done. So it sounds simple, but I will tell you that recruiters and HR people are not copywriters. And so you're expecting somebody who is in HR to have an English degree, and chances are they don't. Right. Like, for them, now, with ChatGPT, it's. It's easy as pie. Put it in ChatGPT, ask it to sound authentically like you or like the organization. Because there's nothing worse than, you know, um, these job ads. I mean, I just cringe when I see ninja. Like, who calls themselves a ninja? Like, really? Okay. And so when I get there, am I surrounded by other ninjas? Like, are we always going to be fighting? Okay, well, that paints another really interesting picture because. But if that's what it is, then own it.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, the last kind of person I want to hire is a ninja, because they're. They're really good at not being seen. Like, that doesn't sound like the kind of person I want who takes on accountability. Well, yeah.

Speaker E: Right, so. So you, you. So unless you've got an English major somewhere hiding in your HR team, expecting them to do this is not realistic. It's just not, you know, yes. Obviously, Pete, you've got a creative bend to you. And so, um, you know, maybe you've got the flair for the written word, right, where you can write something and it's authentic. Because, you know, again, there's nothing worse than reading a job ad that sounds exciting. And you get there and there's nothing but rules, regulations, stay in your lane. Right. Like, it's just. It's not. It's not the true reflection of the company's culture.

Speaker C: So, so that raises. Interesting point, because if you're going to go out on a limb, like, I. I've sort of described what I've done in the past. What you're sort of talking about. Don't do it just to get people in the door and disappoint them.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker C: That has to be part of your sort of overall ethos of who you are and what your identity is. And I didn't use the C word. And we know what the C word is.

Speaker F: Culture.

Speaker E: I was sweating there for a minute.

Speaker C: You're all a little nervous. A little nervous there. But I landed the plane. Everyone's safe. Yes. And, uh, when I see culture in an ad, we have great culture. I'm like, what are you, like a container of Greek yogurt? Like, you know, uh, come on, you've got to be better than, oh, we have great Culture. If you have to tell people you have great culture, you don't have great culture.

Speaker E: Yeah, it's like saying we have good benefits. Oh, define good. We pay well. Okay, well then tell me what it is. What do you pay? Um, so here's my m. You want to know my favorite, and this absolutely sets my hair on fire, is when they say we're like a family. Have you ever fired your uncle? Have you ever had to dis. Do a, um, performance management on your mother? Really? Your family? Come on. I get enough of that at home, thank you very much.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't, I don't, I don't need to bring it into the office. But you know what? Your co workers can be your colleagues, your friends, your mentors. But the second you turn them into family.

Speaker E: Mhm.

Speaker C: You've got a bigger problem. Unless they really are family. And that's the way, as Kurt and I can tell you, being in family businesses, everyone thinks, oh, it's so great. No, it's, it's not the easiest thing on earth to navigate and it can be really difficult into what it looks like. But yeah, oh, we're a big family. So that means, that means you fight. You go for extended periods though, talking to each other. And some of you won't go sit in the lunchroom with someone else, is there? And you've got incredibly complex grudges that go back generations. Oh yeah, sign me up.

Speaker E: That's the place I want to work.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So these are good red flags. I kind of like this. So what about um, okay, so let's think about the insurance industry here and kind of keep going down the road. You think about all levels of the industry. You know, insurance companies, carriers, claims, you know, claim services, brokers, and all the other entities in between MGA's. M. You know, there's hundreds of them. What do you think they should incorporate into their talent and acquisition sort of pro and hiring processes. Like what can they learn from other industries where you are seeing success?

Speaker E: Mhm. Um, so I would start with um, taking a look at who, who does recruitment report to. So if we understand that talent acquisition, um, is really the lifeblood of your organization and until you see um, them in that light, that is, if you run out of people, either you've got a technology coming that's going to replace it, or you pretty much need to have a good strategy around how you're going to attract people. So you know, if, if you are, if you have talent acquisition and they're reporting up to HR and then HR filters that to your C suite. Um, what that means is you're never really getting the true line of sight to what's happening in the market, what's happening in recruitment, what tools do they need? Um, what, what do we need? What, where do we need to invest and how much do we need to invest? Do we need to keep advertising? Um, and until TA is held, basically held and treated the same way you treat customers, Um, I mean, sorry, your candidates are then treated the same way you would treat customers. And what I mean by that is, if you've got a database of, uh, sales leads and you don't follow up on them, how long do you keep your job? You don't. Right. So in recruitment, we have a database of candidates. This is talent. People that have applied to over the years and we do nothing with them. Right? So if I'm the CEO, I would be. I want accountability for talent to be reporting to me so that I know where is our, where is our pipeline of people going to come from? How are we remarketing back to them to ensure that we can convert them from applicants to hires? These are people that are sitting in your database right now and using the same sort of, uh, the same sort of professional courtesy you give to your customers, you should be giving to your job seekers, because sooner or later, um, they're going to change jobs. And if you've done a good job of ensuring you stay top of mind, they know your culture, then guess who wins and you're off the hamster wheel.

Speaker F: Yeah. Hey, let's face it, there are so many tools that you have to have in your toolbox to make people feel wanted, needed, uh, engaged. You know the happiness survey? I know we used to run that one for a while, uh, all sorts of things to just sort of, like you say, make sure that, uh, the TA piece is always, uh, ongoing, either while they're thinking about coming to work for you, or even as they've started and making sure they stay engaged as they're, as their part, because you live up to what you promised them. And some of the challenges we face, though, within this industry is as it relates to, um, all the things to do with licensing and compliance. I mean, this is a boring question that Pete wrote, but let's face it, like, it's still a reality that we have to deal with. How do you find, looking at it from the outside, looking in, are there any, uh, tricks or things that you've sort of come up with to help overcome, uh, that barrier? And, uh, when it Comes to new talent. I mean, is there something there?

Speaker E: So, uh, you know, you could take out the qualifications, uh, piece for insurance and replace that for every skilled trade. You can replace that for dentistry. You can. I mean it's, it is, I hear this over and over and over regardless of the industry. Um, it is the same thing you do and you know, rightfully so because you, um, you certainly, if you're going to hire a tradesperson to weld on a roof or something, you want them to be qualified. And there's, and so that's why these governing bodies exist. Right. To ensure that we, that we uphold a standard of professionalism. And so, you know, there's, there's certainly nothing unique at all. I mean there's really nothing unique about the qualification process in the industry. Um, because it exists everywhere.

Speaker F: I mean when I look, compliance exists everywhere. Right. Like the, the red tape. Red tape exists everywhere.

Speaker E: Yeah, it does. It absolutely does and for good reason. Um, and so, you know, does it come back to. It does come back to having, um, having a strategy around who you attract. Right. And having them choose you choose your industry as to, you know, why I'm going to dedicate my time and take this training and get uh, certified because there is enough of attraction, of an attraction at the end of the day. And so what is it you got to tell me? Like there's, you know, I hear this often that people are saying it's a great career, but.

Speaker F: Okay, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker E: Tell me what makes you choosable. If I'm a math major, why would I want to be an actuary when you know, technology looks pretty sexy right now? Right.

Speaker F: So you're sure. Well said. Yeah.

Speaker E: Well, but you're appealing to a very specific type of math major that is somebody who is conscious about being part of the community and understands the connection back to the contribution that you will be making that really matters. You know, once, once the tech firm that you've joined either runs out of money or gets bought. Bought, uh, up and you're now out of a job. Sounded good at the time, but you've got something that you know, will forever be part of the fabric of, of our economy and of our communities.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker E: I mean, have you ever known somebody whose kitchen caught on fire?

Speaker F: Mhm.

Speaker E: I have.

Speaker F: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker C: We were going to.

Speaker F: You're, you're there at the worst time for, for them, right? Yeah, absolutely. Supporting them through a process that no one wants to go through. Right. It's a product no one wants to use and uh, but when they do need to use it. It's absolute that it has to deliver and you know, at emotional time. Right. Whether it be property insurance, life insurance, it's all very emotional.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker F: That being said, then, when you, when you look at organizations, what are sort of the, you know, and you're sharing ideas with them, what are kind of like the top three issues that organizations should be aware of when it comes to finding and retaining talent? Do you ever, you sort of have like, hey guys, keep these three things on, on the top of your desk all the time?

Speaker E: Uh, I guess the, the first thing would be, um, always, always be aware of what it's like to apply to a job in your industry or your company. Uh, because it's, it's often decisions are made. And so I know, just in our research, I know that the insurance industry has this love affair with this product for their HRIs. Um, their recruitment portion of it, which we call the Applicant Tracking System, is one of the worst the experience, the 10 screens to fill in your information. It doesn't parse properly. Even worse, on my side of the screen, I can't tell you how many people started the apply process and bailed out because it wouldn't save my information properly. It's glitchy, it's terrible. So number one thing, never lose sight of what it's like to be a job seeker, to be a candidate. And always, I'd say every CEO should pull out their phone right now and try and apply to one of their own postings on your phone and just tell me what's the experience like. So that's the number one thing is because, you know, what I'm advocating for here is to treat people with basic professional courtesy, treat your job seeker as

Speaker C: though

Speaker E: they could be a customer too. Right. You're in an industry where your job seeker could also be your customer and how are you treating them? Right. That's certainly something, um, to keep in mind. The second thing is, is the recruitment process itself. And that is how long does it take from the time someone first has contact, um, to when they're hired. And then the last thing would be how you treat people to onboard them. Because a proper onboarding can make or break whether somebody stays with your organization.

Speaker C: Wow. I kind of like that, Shelley. Well, uh, it's just such an interesting thing. So let's talk about that software, the dreaded software that companies use to streamline things in and they're using it for efficiencies and stuff. I have gone through that experience, um, a number of years ago and I got nothing. And I was talking to a very senior person at an insurance company and I said, hey, I actually applied for a job here and it was kind of something of interest to me and blah, blah, blah. And I went and sort of told them about what it was. And he go, oh really? And blah, blah, blah. These conversations I never heard from anything. And he says to me, you're kidding. I said, no. I said, that's because you had this portal. And he goes, I would have thought I at least get a courtesy phone call to say, hey Pete, thanks for calling. I didn't even get back anything. How prevalent is this kind of software usage? And are companies losing out on great talent?

Speaker E: Ah, uh, thank you. This is, uh, it absolutely is. Why the recruitment, uh, industry is faced with our greatest challenge ever is it's a self inflicted wound, Peter. We've got people applying, we make them jump through hoops to apply to our jobs and then we ghost them. Um, what did we think was going to happen? As soon as there is a technology available, job seekers will do anything to avoid having to fill in your 10 screens. So what it's created is actually this flood of bots. You can use AI, an AI agent to apply for you to all these. You know, make, make the bot, fill in the 10 screens and make it, it'll create a resume that matches the job posting. So now what we have is, is companies post a job and they'll get 300 people in the first 24 hours. And most of those are bots. They're not people that are taking the time to fill in the screens. No, it's a bot. So we've created this, um, behavior within job seekers because of exactly what you just described. You drag me through this process and you don't have the courtesy to even call me or even decline me and tell me that, um, unfortunately your skills don't match in these three areas. Please refer back to the job posting. Right now we've got perfect matches because they're using an AI agent to fill in and apply for them. Um, so that it is, it is a reflection of what's happening and as a result of this horrible technology that they have chosen. And usually. Pete, honestly, when a company is implementing an HR system, the applicant tracking part of it is usually an afterthought and it's just included. It's part of the package. We'll throw it in. It's kind of like gift with purchase. Um, it's not a tool designed to help build the long term viability of your Organization. And that is the talent that you're trying to bring in?

Speaker C: Absolutely it is. I love it. I absolutely love it. It's such a vital thing to think about. So, Shelly, we're kind of getting to the finish line here. Um, what do you see as the top three issues that any organization should be aware of when it comes to finding and retaining talent? So, like, where do they start? What should they always have in their mindset of where this is going to go?

Speaker E: Um, well, we'll start with the candidate journey.

Speaker F: Okay.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker C: So know the journey yourself, right?

Speaker E: Yes, yes. Be sure you know the journey yourself. The second is to, um, take a look at what you're doing with your existing candidate database. You have all. Some companies have millions of applicants, um, sitting in their database. And what are they doing with them? Nothing. Nothing. You need to groom those people who have applied to you over the years. They may not have been qualified two years ago, but where are they today? They may not have met the exact requirements that you were looking for back then, but they might be today. Um, and the last thing is using modern technology, right? Like to think that you can just simply post, you know, there's this absolute fixation that we just got to get the job posted, right? And then it's like, okay, the job's posted, we can just sit back and wait for people to come to us. Um, well, that's one way of doing it. And if, if that's working for you, keep doing it. But it's just, it's not a strategy. It's a, let's just get something out there on the Internet and hope somebody applies versus being intentional about, uh, where you post what you say and how you treat people.

Speaker C: Love it. Okay, now we're going to get to the final sort of framework here. What is your biggest myth about talent acquisition that needs to be dispelled. And then I got a follow up to that.

Speaker E: Okay. Um, the biggest myth would be that there is an endless supply of, uh, of talent and that, um, you can always find more. Always wanting new, always wanting more. And I think the greatest example would be, um, the Amazon distribution centers in Arizona and California. They have literally exhausted the labor force. So how many years in a row can you have 100% turnover and think that you're always going to find people? Um, well, the good news is that Amazon has a technology division and technology is going to solve the fact that they burned through the entire labor force in, in the market. Um, and so I guess it's the belief that, you know, recruitment is Tactical I. You put a strategy in place, guess what, you'll pull out in front because you actually thought about it. You actually have a talent strategy.

Speaker C: Okay? Now, conversely, what is the most immutable truth that everyone should understand about talent acquisition?

Speaker E: The truth is that technology is not. Technology is both our friend and our foe. And I think if used for good, that is both on the job seeker side and the employer side. If you're using it with the intention of, um, always finding the best people, if you're using it, um, as a job seeker to support your job search, not replace your own effort, um, I think the truth is we're still hiring human beings. And keeping the human in the loop is the essential truth that we will never get away from not having a human in the loop.

Speaker C: I love it. I love it. That is something that everyone needs to hear more and more. Um, particularly in an age right now and a media cycle where all we hear about is that technology is going to upend everything. And it's very refreshing to say that technology has its impact, to hear someone say, Shelley, that technology has its limitations, it has its place, and it has its use cases, and it should not be used for everything, despite what some would have us believe. Thank you so much for jumping on. This has been super insightful and I can't wait to get, like, I've got some, you know, some time markers, uh, you know, listed for some quotes that I want to sort of put out beforehand. But this has been amazing. This is such a topic that we were long overdue to talk about. And, you know, I'll add, you know, maybe we'll ask you one more question. One of the things I think organizations, um, that are very specific to an industry, you know, do is they get nervous about new thinkers bringing people in who can challenge your status quo. So, sorry, not the last question. This is the last question.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker C: How do you feel about that? When you see organizations who say, well, that's a great candidate, but I think they're a little too outside the box. What do you say to address that? Because the ones I see in the insurance industry who are driving change and having, they're embracing those people, those new thinkers, that different approach to solving problems. Is that something that is common or is it still an issue across other industries?

Speaker E: You know, so it is. So in any industry, you're always going to have your, um, your outliers, that is, people who don't fit the mold, but they may join your organization in order to shake things up, um, you know, playing it safe. And just always doing what you've always done, well, we know where that ends, right? We know where that leads. And so to have people, um, who are brave enough to ask you the simple question, like, why do you do things this way? Um, also to have an independent voice that won't just always tell you what you want to hear. To have someone come in and audit your process end to end, and truly want to hear what they have to say as an expert, um, and show you this is where it's broken. Um, or even just by asking the question, why do you continue to do things this way? Um, but it's only when it's painful enough that companies will do that. And regardless of industry. So until the pain is so excruciating, that is, you know, a business or a company is on its knees, they cannot meet the demands of their business because they don't have. They can't. They don't have the workforce to do it. Only then will they stop and go, okay, this hurts enough. We better fix this. And, and so continuing to, um, do it the same way isn't going to fix it, but it's. It's really the courage to say completely independent. We want to know the truth. We want to know where it's broken. So come on in, take a look around and tell me what's broken and how to fix it.

Speaker C: Love it. Shelly, thanks so much. This is the final ending, the real ending. And, uh, it's absolutely a pleasure getting to meet with you before this podcast and talk and hearing your insight. So long overdue. And I, uh, can't wait to get this one out because there's some very great lessons in here for the insurance industry that they desperately need to hear.

Speaker E: Well, thank you, Pete. It's been fun. Um, I can talk about recruitment if anybody wants, uh, wants to continue the conversation. Hit me up on LinkedIn. Shelley Billinghurst and the company's Higher Value. And it's higher as in you got the job. Ah, Higher Value Inc. Um, happy? Like, I can talk endlessly. Obviously, I do talk endlessly about talent acquisition.

Speaker C: Fantastic.

Speaker E: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Insurance Podcast, brought to you by First Insurance Funding of Canada, the innovator in insurance payments.

Speaker D: The world of audio is evolving fast. So much so that it often means video as well. These days, staying ahead isn't an advantage, it is a necessity. I'm Matt Kundal, and every week on the Sound off podcast, I speak with the people shaping the future of podcast, broadcast and audio. Whether you're behind the mic in the production studio or in the boardroom. This is your weekly look into the trends, talent and tech driving audio forward. The Sound off podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and@soundoffpodcast.com

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