Malissa Clark on Workaholism and Never Not Working

Speaker A: Take a moment to think about the following. Do you feel compelled to work? Is your work difficult to stop thinking about? Are you upset if you have to miss a day of work? Do you tend to work beyond the actual requirements of your job? If so, you might be a workaholic. And so are almost half of us workers. Our guest today is Melissa Clark, author of Never Not Working, why the Always on Culture Is Bad for Business and how to Fix It. Melissa is an associate professor of industrial and Organizational psychology at the University of Georgia, where she has been on the faculty since 2013. And she joined us for a deep conversation all about workaholism, what it is, why it matters, and what we can do about it. If you care at all about your work and your life, this is simply an episode you can't miss. Stay tuned for our conversation with Melissa Clark. Welcome to the Indigo Podcast, an exploration of human flourishing at work and beyond. I'm Ben Barron of Indigo Anchor and Cleveland State University.

Speaker B: And I'm Chris Everett of Indigo Anchor. For more information, please visit us at www.indigopodcast.

Speaker C: Com.

Speaker A: Melissa Clark, welcome to the Indigo Podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: We are super excited to talk with you today. And uh, we're going to be talking about workaholism and we're most specifically going to be talking about your book Never Not Working. So we're so excited to delve into those conversations. We've been, you know, up all night just obsessing about reading the book and making sure that we were over prepared for this interview.

Speaker C: Uh, so this is the perfect book for you then.

Speaker B: I even leaned in to extra reading for this episode.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker A: Uh, so, you know, we're going to kind of walk through a handful of different topics related to the book and I think maybe where we can start is just the, uh, workaholism landscape, so to speak. And what is the. Let's do a little problem identification. What's going on out there in the world of work that you really cared enough about to research, both on an in a scholarly context and in this popular press book?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, it sounds like you might relate to, you know, something that I've struggled with my, my whole life, really feeling like I needed to always be on, always be doing something, um, going, going, going, uh, from a young age really, and didn't really realize there was a term to describe this feeling that I, you know, always kind of had towards overachieving and um, going above and beyond. And uh, so yeah, I found out there's a term called workaholism that kind of put all the pieces together. And it was my aha moment. Um, and I realized, wow, I think I'm a workaholic. And so I set out to understand it from a scientific perspective.

Speaker A: So as they say, sometimes our, uh, our research is, is really Me Search, right?

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. That's actually what I call it. I call it Me Search. Trying to understand myself better.

Speaker A: Uh, nothing wrong with that for sure.

Speaker B: Isn't that the perennial joke about now you guys are IO psych people, industrial and organizational psychologists. But maybe it's the same thing. You know, people go into psychology to help others or to help themselves. And I think that's great.

Speaker C: Right? We're curious. We want to understand, you know, the way we are and the dynamics around us. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, one of the things that I think that's kind of, it's always in the zeitgeist is like, the man really stinks that I'm a worker. Uh, you don't understand me. You know, I'm the victim here. But I really loved how you kicked off this book because you, you kicked off with some inconvenient truths, as it were, that we, the average worker is working fewer hours than ever before. And you know what? Back in the day, there wasn't a retire. Children were your retirement plan.

Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah.

Speaker B: So, so what's the problem here in the workaholic?

Speaker C: How can you have workaholics feel like they work longer? Right. So it was all these contradictions that I just, like you said, I threw that at the beginning to really confuse people. But, but it's actually true when you look at the data, um, we are working less than ever before. However, because we're so tethered to work now, particularly with our smartphones and technology, it really, there's, it's difficult to quantify hours worked because we're actually always on. If you think about it, we're. And I'm guilty of this too. I'm always checking my email. I'm always, you know, pulling out my laptop when I'm watching tv. So, uh, when you think about the actual are the actual time we're working, it's hard to quantify. Um, yes, hours worked are less, but work is almost like more all consuming, if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah. Would you say that this is a kind of an across the board problem or is this a knowledge worker problem? Is it something, I mean, are plumbers and tradespeople, are they dealing with similar types of issues? Do we have data on that?

Speaker C: Those are great questions. And you know, unfortunately we don't have a ton of data on, um, a wide variety of occupations. It does seem to be extremely prevalent, particularly with knowledge workers, um, because one of the components of workaholism is not being able to shut work off in your brain. And so, you know, knowledge workers in particular, you know, always working on some creative project or, um, that kind of thing. But I will say it's complicated. Individuals that are in, um, kind of lower wage occupations, maybe they're not a workaholic in the classic sense. But there's a whole different host of problems that I know we don't really have time to get into today that maybe they're being paid so little that they actually have to work two, three jobs. So, um, they're workaholics in the sense that they are literally working all the time and having very little time for anything else. And that's a function of underpayment. Right. They're just not, they're not making a living wage. Um, and so that is a huge problem and we need a ton more research on that. Um, most of the workaholism research is unfortunately, um, pretty exclusively to, uh, knowledge workers and, you know, occupations that you might think of, you know, lawyers and doctors and um. But, but I will say it's funny because some of the research that I've done where I've interviewed individuals and spouses, you wouldn't believe the range of occupations where I find workaholics. So in that sense, they do seem to be everywhere.

Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. But you know, workaholism, as you talk about in the book, is not just hours worked. Right, Right. Uh, so I think it's probably important for us relatively early on in this conversation to give our listeners a more clear definition of what workaholism is and maybe what it isn't.

Speaker C: Absolutely. So the way scholars define workaholism is working excessively and working compulsively. So the behavioral part, that's the long hours, that's the more obvious, um, component. You know, working longer than is necessary, taking work home, taking work on vacations. Uh, but the compulsive aspect is also multifaceted. There's a motivational component where, uh, we actually call this driven to work by interjected motivation. Um, so feeling like you ought to be working all the time, that you should be working, uh, which is different than intrinsic motivation, um, which is underlying work engagement. Um, another component of workaholism, uh, is the cognitive component, not being able to shut work off in your mind, um, thinking about work all the time. Maybe it's keeping you up at night, that kind of thing. And finally, there's an emotional component that when you're not working, you feel guilty, you feel anxious or maybe even frustrated that someone or something is preventing you from being able to finish this work thing, Even though it's 9 o' clock at night, something like that. So, yeah, it's multifaceted. Um, but it's definitely more than just hours worked. Absolutely.

Speaker B: What about working to avoid problems at home? You know, it's like you could go home and deal with your kids that don't have a fully developed neocortex yet, or you can put in two extra hours on that project. Would that be workaholism?

Speaker C: Well, as a mom of two, I can tell you that working a paid job is, uh, easier in many ways than taking care of kids at home. So. Yeah, I mean, but I get it that. But it's not, you know, inherent in the definition of workaholism. But people can be driven to work from a variety of different reasons. Um, I'm not saying that's not impossible.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which brings me to another question that I had a little bit further down in our agenda here, but I think I'd just like to ask it now, is why do we work? I mean, aside from. Right, aside from the obvious of I need to make some money, I have to pay bills, what function does do you think work has in our lives?

Speaker C: So we're taking money completely out of the equation. I was just talking with my class about, well, I teach motivation and we talked about a study where, uh, individuals were told, well, if you won the lottery and you didn't really need the financial aspect, would you stop working? And half the people said yes and half the people said no. And so, you know, I think for a lot of us, work is one of those things that is a part of our identity. And for many people, it's perhaps the biggest part of their identity. And I think as humans like having a purpose. Um, many of us, through our jobs, want to be able to make an impact to society, to make the world a better place. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of reasons besides money that I think drive people to work. And that's where it gets tricky because you can be driven to work because of this passion. And that's all admirable and great. Uh, however, is there a point where the passion becomes an obsession? And that's where, you know, it's almost like the too much of a good thing effectively Right, Right.

Speaker A: Well, I suspect we'll come back to some of these different themes, because there's a lot that I would love to unpack there. But, you know, you touched on something that brought another question to mind, where you talk about some different myths, and you. You suggest that, you know, one of the myths about workaholism is that there are good workaholics, and you say, no, there are. There are no good workaholics. Say more about that.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, there are. That's definitely a pervasive myth. But I'll go to bat with anyone to contradict this. You know, there. The kernel of truth, I will say, is there's, you know, there's some evidence that, you know, for example, um, let me back up a little bit. So one good type of workaholic that I hear about is the engaged workaholic. And so these are individuals that they exhibit the characteristics of workaholism that I've talked about, but they're also an engaged worker. And so the components of work engagement, you know, you feel vigorous and energized when you're working. You're driven by intrinsic motivation. And, you know, the research definitely shows that work engagement is linked to a whole host of positive outcomes. And so that's where this myth kind of comes up. Well, and there is some research to show that, you know, the engaged workaholics, the engaged part of it, can buffer some of the negative, um, outcomes of workaholism, like negative health outcomes, for example. That's the kernel of truth. All right, so I'll. I'll give. I'll give you that much. But there, on the other hand, there's other research showing that any good effects of, uh, work engagement are essentially washed out by workaholism over time. Eventually, you know, there might be some positive outcomes in the short run, but, you know, for a whole host of reasons, if you're constantly, compulsively and excessively working, you can't do that forever, and it will catch up with you. And so, um, it can only be positive for so long. I would argue, and I want to

Speaker B: hold up, that these types of people are pillars in our society.

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker B: They go to the top universities. Their kids are all above average. Right. This is like the Lake Wobegon on steroids. Right.

Speaker C: Well, I talked to Adam Grant. He said he is an engaged workaholic, too. You know, and he's one of my idols. And, um, I feel like I kind of am, too. You know, I love my job, and I am driven by intrinsic Motivation. While at the same time I feel this sense of, oh, I ought to be working, I ought to be doing this. So, yeah, these are the people that we look up to. And, you know, there's the saying, you know, do what you love and you'll never feel like you're working a day in your life. That kind of thing. Um, but lies.

Speaker B: These are lies, listeners, and it's in this book. So, like, don't be thinking that this is some campy cure your workaholism, um, with Windex and these three easy tricks. This is well researched, put together stuff. But I'm gonna write we do it live on this, Melissa. So tell us the story about what you were doing with your pregnancy.

Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: Uh, this is crazy.

Speaker C: I was pretty vulnerable in the book because it's an embarrassing story. Right? Um, those of you that have read the book, uh, you know, you two have. And so, you know. All right, so I was in graduate school, um, when I had both of my kids. And, um, so I was pregnant with my first child. And, um, also was in the middle of the semester. I was taking a full load of classes, and I was teaching my own class as instructor of record, um, as well. And I remember I was at a coffee shop. I was trying to finish up a midterm, and I all of a sudden started having contractions, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is the worst timing. Could not be, you know, could not be worse. I was frustrated. Sound familiar? Um, that I couldn't finish this midterm. Uh, and so I stuck it out. I stayed there for at least, like, two hours, and I had a little notepad, and I was timing my contractions, and they were kind of all over the place. So I was like, I got time. It's fine. And finally I decided when I, you know, it was getting pretty uncomfortable, and the contractions were getting close enough that I was like, all right, I just need to call it quits. And so I reluctantly packed up my stuff and then went home and gathered my husband, and we went to the hospital, and I had been in labor that whole time. Um, so, yes, classic, uh, workaholic, I guess you could say.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is what an engaged workaholic. Okay. And so then. Sorry, you don't get off this easy, Melissa. So then you have your kid, and how quickly are you back teaching and stuff?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Um, so we had a. Our spring break was that week that I gave birth. And so I had that week off. And then I took one week on top of that, and then I went back.

Speaker A: My goodness.

Speaker B: I know everyone that's fighting for maternity leave is throwing tomatoes, but I gotta say, yes, I was touched by that story and the vulnerability there. Because if you took a survey of CEOs, I guarantee, and uh, you described what an engaged workaholic looked like, they'd be like, how many of these can we get? Can we talk to hr? And it's the wrong answer. And it's strategically short sighted, which Melissa does an excellent job of, um, expounding on in this book. So you talk about four main components of workaholism, right? You've got. Let's go into these briefly. You have behavioral, motivational, cognitive and emotional. Can you just describe those briefly?

Speaker C: Sure. So the behavioral component, this is the long work hours. This is working, uh, longer than is necessary, um, taking on additional projects, um, not leaving work at work when you go home. And so, um, you know, doing things like taking work on vacation. Uh, can I tell you a funny story? So this past New Year's, um, was the first time in my adult working life that I went on vacation and did not take my laptop.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: So that, that's the behavioral component.

Speaker B: How did it feel?

Speaker C: Uh, terrifying, but also good. Terrifying, but really refreshing. So that was a little sidebar. But that's the behavioral component. Um, the motivational component. As I mentioned, there are different motivators for why we do things. And so one of the key motivational drivers of workaholism is what we call introjected motivation. So, uh, this stems from self determination theory, where it's like partially internalized beliefs about what we should be doing. Think about how society puts this pressure on us for how we should work. Um, and this manifests as these feelings that we ought to be working, that if we're idle, we're not doing what we should be doing. As a good worker, as a, you know, you know, is a good human being, isn't this what we were born to do? Um, is work, work, work. And so that's the motivational component, the cognitive component. Thinking about work all the time, not being able to shut it off. This is the room and rumination part, right? So you might be thinking of things that happen that day or things that are going to happen in the future. Regardless, you're thinking about work. Um, so you might be distracted, for example, where when you're with your family or your friends because of something work related, it's just, you can't turn it off. Um, and then the fourth component, that's the emotional component, where you Feel negative emotions when you are not working or when you're prevented from working. So, you know, when you're not at work, you feel anxious, you feel, um, guilty, almost like this pit in your stomach that manifests like, you know, oh, gosh, this to me, it's like, almost like anxiety that it can only be curbed if I handle whatever work thing I'm obsessing about at the minute.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so, yeah, it's, it's multifaceted. Absolutely.

Speaker A: You know, one thing I wonder, and I was talking with Chris about this when we were preparing for this episode, is, you know, I was just, just describing going through graduate school and getting your PhD, getting a tenure track job, working towards an earning tenure. It seems like that entire system, at least the way that we kind of do it here maybe in the United States, is perfectly designed to attract select and retain workaholics. What do you think?

Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. It's, um, Schneider's ASA model attraction, Selection attrition. So individuals that are type A hard driving perfectionist, um, you know, they're attracted to these types of occupations and fields that, um, that kind of expect that in their top performers. Uh, so you hear a lot of, you know, academics and in law and consulting and doctors and um, a lot of these occupations. Same thing, but in academia. Yeah. And it's almost like you're constantly competing against each other. How many publications did you have compared to the others in your field who are studying the same topic and, uh, rewarding the number of publications which it takes a lot of time and effort to get out one. And here we are expecting four or five of them in a year, um, just to keep up with everybody else. And, uh, and there's always the next promotion to be thinking about as your next goal. So, um. Yeah, it doesn't really stop, does it?

Speaker A: Well, it. Not really. I think that the way it stopped for me is I just stopped caring about a lot of those things. Right.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And it worked for me. I mean, and it's easy to say that because I do have tenure, but I think, you know, I have a number of aspects of my. The rest of my life that I have a flexible enough sense of self that I don't depend upon my identity being formed completely by that one piece. Right. So I think that that kind of helps in a way.

Speaker C: Um. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: But, you know, I also just wonder about this. You know, maybe the engaged workaholic. It seems like there's evidence to suggest fairly convincingly that it's not good for the workaholic him or herself. It's probably not good for their families. It also seems maybe that society modernity has evolved in a way that has completely depended upon and benefited from workaholics. I don't know if that's true. Would we have iPhones if Steve Jobs wasn't an obsessive jerk who worked really, really long hours? What do you think about that?

Speaker B: Um, I hate the framing of that question, Ben.

Speaker A: Then. Then you answer it or ask a different way.

Speaker B: I don't. I don't know if that's the right way. Because the question I. How I think of is, are moral sacrifices worth it to make progress? And I think that's a dark hallway to look down M. Maybe.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's also working under the assumption that the only way you can get these groundbreaking ideas is if you're working 80 hours a week. I mean, I don't know about you, but some of my most creative ideas have come when I'm, you know, walking around the block, just, you know, taken a. A half hour to get a breath of fresh air and then it pop. It comes to me, you know, and, and they show this in the creativity literature. And you know, so I'm not convinced. I think that we have all these models that, yeah, we could look to them as examples. Um, but that does. That's not the only way you can get these great innovations.

Speaker A: Sure. And I would also point this. I think it speaks to how you articulated as another myth of workaholism is that workaholics are more productive. Right. So that's not what the evidence suggests. That, and to your point, with creativity and with other types of productivity metrics, if we were able to, you know, some things I think is very, very difficult to actually measure productivity. But, um, depending on the nature of the job. But, uh, it does seem like that type of excessive compulsive orientation towards work doesn't necessarily benefit either the work or the person themself in the long run.

Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah. There is some research showing that workaholism predicts decreased work engagement over time. And I was just reading an article this morning about. And it's not related to workaholism, but it was just about communication technology and being tethered to our work. And that decreases work engagement too. And so, you know, when we think about these individuals that we put up on pedestals. Yeah. I mean, I, I think when you look at the cumulative effect, especially

Speaker A: one,

Speaker C: um, it's going to wear them down. And two, uh, part of what makes work engagement so Great is that you are able to have these wonderful breakthroughs and you're very energized when you're at work. But work engagement really doesn't speak to what you're doing after work and the rest. And recovery literature is pretty clear that if you want engaged workers, you. You actually need to. It's even more important to have rest and recovery after work, um, for those that are highly engaged in their work so that they can come back the next day and feel rested, um, and. And ready to hit the ground running.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: I want to describe what it seems to me like this really crucible that exists on the one hand, hey, look at Tim. Tim's working hard over there. Go Tim. Why can't more people be like Tim? But now let's describe Tim using those for, uh. Tim's behaviors are weird. He is totally in the work. He can't think broadly about the other stuff. His motivations are. I can't feel okay about myself if I'm not stirring the soup or whatever. Right. This is like insanity. Cognitive. I can't stop thinking. You know, we use the term rumination. Like people that have rumination issues struggle generally with a lot of depression and a bunch of stuff. And their emotions aren't like. This is the description of somebody that's not doing well. Right. And I know you can't use the term crazy. I don't know the right terms, uh, how to describe.

Speaker C: Then I think a lot of us would be crazy if we use. To describe workaholics. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Any. Any other thing that you felt that way about everybody be like, man, you've got to get help. This is not okay. But when it comes to work, we're like, nice job, Tim.

Speaker C: Exactly. We're rewarding it. It's the only acceptable addiction, you know, um, not only just acceptable, it's, um. It's worshipped. And that's what's so, um, wild about this.

Speaker A: Another thing that I think is really interesting is so we. There's this. It does seem like culturally we. We worship it to some extent. And, um, the other thing I was wondering and just thinking about is many jobs, right. Need certain personality characteristics. Most notably, of course, is conscientiousness. And if we look at the measure for conscientiousness, what kind of correlation would we have there with workaholism? Right? I mean, if you look at the short measure of conscientiousness, it's things like, I'm always prepared. I pay attention to details. I get my things done right away. I carry out my plans. I make plans and I stick to them. I don't waste my time. I, I find it easy to get down to work. I don't do just enough to get by. I see things through. I don't shirk my duties. Like all of that is conscientiousness.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And so another thing I was just wondering, um, maybe in some of your scholarly research or things you've read of others, have you come across anybody that's looked at just some of those personality characteristics and how they correlate with workaholism?

Speaker C: Well, workaholism is definitely, uh, strongly correlated with, um, type A personality. Um, and, uh, perfectionism, uh, particularly the, the negative aspects of perfectionism. Feeling like you can't live up to your own standards. Um, I did. I conducted a meta analysis and I know we looked at the big five and, um, off the top of my head, not sure of the correlation with conscientiousness. Um, I can pull it up here, but I, um, think they were positively correlated, but not as strong as you might think. Um, not as strong as type A personality and perfectionism.

Speaker A: Gotcha. Uh, which. That makes me feel a little bit better, right? Because I was thinking, oh, my gosh, like, as I was psychologists, we've just been telling people for decades to select for these types of folks. Right. Uh, but perhaps it's not as dire as, uh, that.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Well, I mean, conscientiousness, again, has been shown to link to job performance and like you said, built into a lot of, uh, selection systems. And so I'm not saying conscientiousness, um, is bad, but I'm a big fan of the idea of too much of a good thing, um, and that exists with conscientiousness as well. Extreme conscientiousness, um, can be problematic. And one of the problematic things might be an inability to detach from work, you know?

Speaker B: All right, so real quick, we talked about the Engaged Workaholic. Let's list the other types, because there are other types. And if a listener may be one of those and might need to go pick up this book right now, the book is Never Not Working by Melissa Clark to get some self help here. So what are the other types of workaholics?

Speaker C: Um, well, let's see. So, yeah, the. Well, the Engaged Workaholic is really the one that most people talk about. I'm honestly not a huge fan of typologies, um, just because it simplifies things to, um, I think make it easier to digest as a general population. But, um, It, I don't know. It. I think you lose a lot of the, the nuance. Um, and so early workaholism research, they were really set on identifying types of workaholics, and they came up with all these crazy names for them, you know, like the bulimic workaholic or the anxious workaholic and the engaged workaholic. And um. So, yeah, I mean, personally, I'm not sure there's a lot of value in talking about, like, types of workaholics, quote unquote. Um, it's probably more useful, in my opinion, to just focus on thinking, um, about workaholism and these dimensions of workaholism as, um, a continuum that you might, uh, have workaholic tendencies, uh, for a couple of these dimensions, but maybe not all of them, um, and also to varying degrees. And the same thing goes for work engagement. It's almost like two levers that you can be high on both or medium on both, low on both, or any variant of that. And I think it's just important to think about, well, even if I have some of these tendencies to, you know, ruminate or take work home with me, maybe it's still worth paying attention to what the research is showing. Because, yeah, it might not be to that extreme that you're not, you're not full blown, quote unquote, workaholic, but you may have some negative habits or tendencies that you can, um, work on improving. And, um, maybe you didn't even realize that you were doing some of these things. Um, like I didn't realize I was doing some of these, uh, that I learned about in my interviews for the book. One woman I spoke to, she talked about working light. I was like, what is this concept? Uh, and then I realized I do it all the time. And I would classify that as the behavioral component of workaholism. So really this is basically integrating something fun to make you feel like you're not working, um, but also you're working at the same time. So one woman I spoke to, she would have a glass of wine while she was working. And to her it was like it wasn't work because she was also enjoying this glass of wine. Um, for me, it's, oh, well, I'm watching this TV show. We're catching up. We just watched, you know, the last episode of True Detective last night. And so, you know, Working Light would be pulling out my laptop and handling a couple emails at the same time. I'm watching this really riveting show. And, uh, I think I actually did that for about five minutes. And I was like, wait, what am I doing? No, putting this away. Um, so yeah, so I think just paying attention to some of those things is important.

Speaker B: No, I think that's good. Everybody who's a workaholic isn't an Ivy League multi marathoner per year.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You can be a regular person and still be dipping in. Right. Like, you know, some people have problematic drinking, but they're not hammered all the time or driving drunk. Right. Like, like you said, there's a spectrum that, that you can deal with. And you talk about the two levers early in the book. What are those two levers?

Speaker C: Yeah, so for this I think of, you know, workaholism and work engagement. They are positively correlated with each other. And so each one of those is a, you know, its own, um, construct that you can have. You can, uh, relate to it to varying degrees. And so I think about the workaholism lever. Um, you know, how many of these workaholic tendencies do you have and to what degree? Um, and then the other lever, if you think about work engagement, those aspects of feeling vigor and dedicated and absorbed in your work. And so there's a lever with work engagement too, and they can work in tandem. And the type of, you know, the engaged workaholic, you would be high on both of those levers, for example. So you would be engaged, but you would also have a lot of these workaholic tendencies as well.

Speaker A: So. Interesting. You know, I'd like to kind of go back to something we touched on earlier, and that's this idea of purpose and meaning. And we know from our science that purpose and meaning is important for job, ah, satisfaction. It's important for motivation. You know, it's um, you know, big part of what we call the job characteristics model when we're looking at the work itself, the significance of a job or its task. Um, and I guess I just wonder. So we say this is really important for work. If you want motivated, satisfied people, they should be deriving a lot of purpose and meaning from their work. Um, but it seems like some organizations maybe ran with that advice that we based upon the science have told them is really good and they've made work very meaningful or at least seem like it tried to really imbue job tasks and responsibilities with a lot of purpose. And I just wonder, do we bear any blame in social science for, for some of this? Um, is, you know, it seems one could make the argument perhaps that, hey, Google, Google ran with our advice. They made it great to work, be at work 24 7.

Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know, I feel like maybe society, um, um, maybe is more to blame than, than us.

Speaker A: Uh, Melissa, Melissa's like, Melissa's like they're not listening to us anyway.

Speaker B: Whose fault is this?

Speaker A: One, two, three.

Speaker B: Not it.

Speaker C: Right? No, let's not blame us, please.

Speaker B: Well, I guess, no, I think it's hard to pin that to one thing

Speaker C: because I do think that they're you know, making our jobs. You know, you talked about job characteristics, um, model. Yeah, we, we can um, get a lot more meaning out of our work, uh, when we can see a task from beginning to end and we see the significance of our work and how it impacts other people. Um, and all of that I would argue is great. Now where the Googles of the world I think went wrong is that they made work so great that there was no reason to leave work. Um, you know, everything and anything was there. Um, and you know, I think it's possible to create a very enriching work environment, but also to promote rest and recovery. And that rest and recovery needs to also happen outside of work. Um, and, and at work I would say too. But also it's important to leave work and have multiple things that are meaningful to you in life. Whether it's your, your family, your kids, your, um, your hobby, your, you know, your community, your church, whatever it is. It makes you a more well rounded person. You bring all of those different experiences to work and you know, that can help with a lot of, you know, idea, um, generation and you know, just different perspectives that you're bringing back to work. Um, but also it's very good for your health too, to be able to get out of that stressful environment and you know, the rest and recovery literature. I just love the work and it's, you know, in my opinion super important to, to really consciously think about how you can build that into your um, your organizational environment too.

Speaker B: All right, so Google, I'm going to throw in an idea, a kind of a big data idea. Ish. Well, okay, you just come, you're awesome. You just graduated from MIT and you're like, hey listen, the workalism is bad, but I'm just going to bite off six years of this so I can get ahead in my field and get launched. Would you tell that guy he's got some stinking thinking or is there some benefits to some early career workaholism?

Speaker C: Oh, these are tough questions. Um, hmm. M. I do think that in our careers there's gonna be ebbs and flows, right? There's gonna be periods that we are going to probably want to work longer and other times where we want to take a step back. And it's just going to vary depending on our life circumstance. And when you're fresh out of college and you don't have kids yet, and maybe you don't even have a partner yet, um, sure, that might be a good time to spend the extra hours. Um, but there's also a trap, right? So if you get into this mindset of this is what it takes to succeed and maybe you're in and out an environment where that's expected. It's not really expected for just a temporary basis. It's expected for your whole career for you to continue at that pace. Um, and, and so it can be difficult to make changes if that's the mentality when you start your career. I don't know. But I'm torn though, because I'm, I'm also. I can relate to that person because that was me. You know, I had a.

Speaker B: Do as I say, not as I do.

Speaker C: I had a really intense sales job right out of college. College. And I was working all the time and.

Speaker A: Yeah, and your academic career benefited probably from some of those tendencies early on, right?

Speaker C: Early on, yeah, probably did. Yeah. I know that. So it's like I'm not a, I'm not opposed to hard work. I'm definitely not. And I think it's just important to, to recognize that, you know, in your career, yes, you might have periods where you're, you're working, um, you know, more than other times in your career. But it can't be your, that can't be your entire career. It just. You, you will eventually your, your body will tell you otherwise. Every single person I interviewed for the book that um, identifies as a workaholic at some point. They, every single person I talked to had some sort of health complication that regardless of they, if they wanted to make any changes to their lifestyle, they had to. Um, a couple people, you know, they had such debilitating, um, medical issues that they physically could not work. And it was devastating to them. I mean really heart wrenching stories, um, where it was, it was almost like, you know, an identity crisis. Like, what am I doing here? What is my purpose in life if I can't work? You know, um, and that's. So that's another thing to consider. If work is your everything when you start your career and then it continues to be your everything. Um, there's a lot riding on that one thing. Um, so I think having multiple identities Things that are really important and meaningful to us. It is beneficial for our well being, broadly speaking.

Speaker B: All right, so here. So that was a setup. Great answer. I love that answer. Here's the big data setup. If you're a big organization, can you go measure how to dial this in to the minimum amount of human flourishing or the maximum amount of acceptable workaholism displayed by your workforce with keeping average longevity high engagement. You see what I'm saying? You could almost get to this place. It's like, listen, we're going to assess. We need somebody a 7 out of 10 on a workaholism. So.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Because they're going to give us the most bang for our employment buck. What do you say to that? Or think about that?

Speaker C: I um, mean, what do you think we should do?

Speaker B: I think there's a lot of jack wagons with no moral fiber and I could give a rip what they think they should go jump in a lake, you know. But there is that idea. And I got this from when I worked at a call center for Dell computers. Those guys had every minute of. And it was exhausting and hey, it didn't matter the next. And you're selling to people that like need. That can't order a computer for themselves off the Internet. So they're not savvy tech purchasers. And you would have to walk them through the whole sales process. And like I forget. And your bathroom breaks were timed. You only got so many. And it was. And at that point I hated big data for driving productivity.

Speaker C: From that moment on it turns into time and motion studies like the original engineering mentality and just treating humans as uh, just people to carry out the work, but not actually human and having personalities, uh, and needs and interests and values. Um, yeah, you're over quantifying it, I guess I might say.

Speaker B: And I want to say another piece on that as I get it. If you're a CEO of somebody who's competing globally against people who have chew up their people worse than we chew them up here in the United States, we're talking child labor, human trafficking, all that stuff. Changing my view. Sorry, brief soapbox. If you change your morality of how you view people and work here and insist on that from your vendors and suppliers, you're not just making your community better or your workforce better, you're making the world better through your work practices. As somebody who has kids, I don't want child labor touching anything that I consume. And I think yes, maybe it may degrade our wealth of shiny worthless platforms, plastic things, but it'll increase our existential wealth. This is where you should be investing. Anyway, Sorry, ran over.

Speaker C: No, I love that. I, I definitely agree. That was great.

Speaker A: Very well, that's a good rant. Uh, and kind of on that note, you know, when we were prepping for this episode and talking about it, Chris and I talked a little bit about how it really seems like part of the equation. And I'm not sure exactly where it fits in, but it seems like part of the, part of the problem and part of the solution perhaps is that people do perhaps need to be thinking more about going on a bit of that existential self exploration and figuring out what really is important for them, for their lives, um, how they are going to find personal meaning in this crazy world. Uh, and perhaps considering that work shouldn't be the, the center of that universe.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, there's a book called the Top five Regrets of the Dying. I don't know if that's the exact title, but yeah, I mean, so, um, the number two regret was I wish I hadn't worked so much of people that were on their deathbed. And the number one was, um, I wish I had lived the life that I wanted to live, not what I was expected or what other people thought I should live.

Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, and I think Covid did, you know, it was really eye opening for so many people. And we had the great resignation that came after that. And I think in part because people realized just how precious life is and what is really important when we really think about our lives and what we're doing here and our purpose, um, and people realized just how important family was and friends. And I think it's quickly forgotten sometimes when we kind of just go back to, um, the regular work coming out of the pandemic and now we're seeing pullbacks of remote work. And, you know, I feel like it's like, don't you remember that, you know, all, all of the companies started talking about employee mental health and, you know, how remote work was actually better than they thought it could ever be. And oh, by the way, everyone, you know, the data actually shows you can be just as productive, if not more. But we need people to be at work and show FaceTime, you know, kind of forgetting really, you know, there's a different way of working. And, um, I agree with you. I think it's important to think about the big picture. And, you know, and I know it can seem really difficult because it's like, you know, how can we change? This is how we've always been. And this is our model of work. That's the problem, though. This is our, um, societal expectation of the ideal worker that.

Speaker B: Say that again. Why should we change? Now imagine anybody saying that about their business model or their competitive strategy. Well, why should we change? Let's just buggy whip it straight to no. So if you can evolve your business model, if you can evolve your products to meet a competitive landscape, you can evolve your way of doing life to better meet the psychological, emotional, and just gosh darn values driven ways that you treat your workforce and society.

Speaker C: Yes, I totally agree.

Speaker A: You know, I, uh, just also was thinking about how it's unfortunate that with things like workaholism, uh, it seems like sometimes it takes major life events to kind of force us to think differently and to change. Uh, you dedicate this book's book to Alex and Evan, which I assume are the names of your children, right?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Why?

Speaker C: They're the most important people in my life. You know, um, I would do anything for them, Anything at all.

Speaker A: How did having those. Having your children change your orientation towards work? I mean, we talked about obviously when you were, uh, giving birth to your first and uh, that experience. But how has it changed just how you see work and life together?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I do think that, you know, having kids of my own and having a partner and realizing just how much joy can come from, um, that part of my life, um, it really helps solidify all of these things. All of the things I had been reading about, you know, related to work life balance and, um, having, you know, uh, meaningful things outside of work and how that can actually make you a better worker. And, um, so to me, it just reinforced things that I had read about, um, in the literature. And, um, it really, to me, I constantly struggle with, you know, my workaholic tendencies, but reminding myself of, well, what do I really value? And thinking about long term, what do I want in the long term? Um, is it more important for me to be the top person in my field in this area and to have all these accolades, or is it more important to have good relationships with my kids and with my spouse? Um, well, to me it's the latter. And so I constantly have to remind myself, well, I can't be sacrificing this time with my kids and with my family. Um, sure, succeeding at work is another goal of mine. It is a big part of my identity. But when I think about what really matters to me, I don't want to be sitting on my deathbed saying, I wish I hadn't worked so much.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think that that's absolutely the right way to be thinking about, uh, this whole landscape of how we navigate our work and our careers and. And certainly, you know, I think it. So the three of us, we all have children here on. On this. In this conversation, I think they really do matter when it comes to how we think about life in general. Um, you know, having children certainly changes your perspectives. And not to throw a big grenade into the conversation, but, um, about three and a half years ago, I lost a child. Right. So the. Thank you. So that experience is one in which it certainly caused a reevaluation of priorities, of how I approached work. I mean, Chris was with me through that whole thing, front row seat.

Speaker B: You'd never wish this on anyone, but Ben took something that was really the worst and has made himself better for it. Uh, I benefit from the new Ben as his business partner. Honestly, I'm getting all choked up over here, but it's true. It's true.

Speaker A: Well, and I think that, Chris, you'd probably agree that I have perhaps some workaholic tendencies, right?

Speaker B: Oh, my God, yes.

Speaker A: Um, but I think that it. But I think it's this idea. We had a, um, uh, a guest previous episode, um, talking a lot about character and. And so forth. And it, uh, was Eric Helzer. Remember that episode, Chris? And he mentioned, you know, this idea of we need to be thinking not just about our. Our resume values, but our. Our eulogy values.

Speaker C: How will we be remembered?

Speaker A: And I. That's super, super important. Um, so let's just shift gears a little bit into thinking a little bit about how an organization might give an indication that they're creating kind of a perfect climate for workaholism. Um, what kinds of things might they be doing? And, uh, you know, one way to maybe think about this is, hey, I'm interviewing for a job. I'm looking at different organizations. I'm trying to evaluate some culture, um, what might be some indications that there's a lot of workaholics there, and maybe I should run away or take a different offer.

Speaker C: Yeah, great question. You know, I think that, um, you can learn a lot by looking for, um, what we call organizational artifacts. So, um, there's many ways that organizations can signal what they value, and it oftentimes might not match exactly what they're telling you, you know, in terms of their benefit package or all of their perks that they offer. Um, but, you know, when you dig a little deeper, you can maybe start to get some clues hopefully you can get the clues before you accept a job that you're going to end up hating. But um, you know some of the clues you don't really know until you're in it. But for example you can look at how, how are new employees socialized? You know, when, um, when you start the job, you know, probably people are going to be telling you look, this is really what the, the boss is going to care about. And you know, yeah, we have these, you know, we have unlimited vacation days but you know really most people take like five, uh, you know, that kind of thing. Um, who's rewarded is a big one too. Um, look at you know, who's getting the promotions, who's getting um, the bonuses at the end of the year. Are these the people that are pulling the all nighters and working 80 hours a week? Um, and are those the reasons people are saying that they got the, the bonus? Um, that's a pretty clear signal. What's valued is to look at who's rewarded.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker C: Um, you can ask, if you're still interviewing for the job, you can ask people who work there tell me about what it's like to work um, with our boss, um, what are his communication patterns for example. Um, and maybe you can get some hints there. I think a common perpetuator um, of this always on culture is the communication that we have with our um, people on our team, our co workers. How often does the supervisor text or email after hours or on the weekends? Um, does the team tend to get wrapped up in these text conversations at 9 o' clock at night? Pretty regularly. Um, that's a pretty big signal that there's probably an always on culture. Right. It's just kind of the norm. It's just what's expected.

Speaker B: This is such the norm. So much so that any consulting engagement I make sure that all the key stakeholders have myself.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because if things are going sideways, you know they're talking smack about you behind your back. Right. These jack wagons, can you. But and it's um, a molehill has blown up into a mountain. But that's a symptom of this always on culture. So if you find yourself right, you're a hard charger, wants to do well but you're also evidence based. You've read Melissa's Clark's never not working book which is available everywhere, good books are sold, Amazon, all that stuff, go get it. Because it's not just about individuals, it's about leaders and organizations and what you can do about it. But if you're an Individual that is stuck in one of these places where workalism is a norm, is there anything you could do to survive until maybe your next gig or maybe change the culture around you as an individual?

Speaker C: I think so. I think, well, it would be great if you had a great supervisor because the supervisor plays the most direct role with your day to day um, work activities. Right. So can we assume that you have a supervisor that's somewhat receptive to conversations? You could, you could talk about setting boundaries. Um, you know, mention to your supervisor that you know, I'm not going to be available between these hours, but I'll make sure you know that I'm always available, you know, starting every day at 8:30 or whatever. And so just communicate those um, boundaries. Um, you know, if you have a supervisor though that doesn't respect those boundaries, I think you're, you're going to have to. Well, while you are looking for another job, um, you can start by forcing yourself to prioritize you and your well being, um, within the parameters of this um, environment that probably isn't the healthiest. Um, and so put things on your to do list that are specifically for yourself. You know, walk for 30 minutes, meditate M for five minutes, two times a day or something and actually put it on your to do list and make it a priority for you um, to build in that rest and recovery, um, as much as you can. Um, but ideally though, hopefully you can have a work team with some good colleagues and a supervisor that does understand the value of having a life outside of work and the value of rest and recovery. Um, and so you see this too in consulting organizations or really hard driving cultures. You see pockets of um, teams that actually they have more balance than you might think even within this um, hard driving culture. Um, and so you can create your own little bubble if you have the right people around you. So maybe you could do a lateral transfer too to some other team that maybe the supervisor is more receptive, um, and is more supportive of employee um, balance.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, and supervisors are just so important. Right. And uh, so if, and we're going to try to start bringing this in for a landing here shortly. This has just been. Time flies and you're having fun. Melissa. Um, if you are a supervisor, you know, what might leaders, managers, supervisors do perhaps to try to get ahead of creating or perpetuating a culture of workaholism and also maybe addressing some of that, those tendencies in themselves?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think being a good role model too is a great place to start. Right. So your employees are Looking to you, um, for your signals that you're sending. So it's not what you tell them is important, it's what you're actually showing them is important. So as a leader, you know, if you have to leave in the middle of the day to take care of a family thing, or you want to leave early to catch your son's soccer game, make it be known that you're doing that right? Um, and so set that example. That's the first thing. Um, the other thing is you can, um, implement some speed bumps too, for yourself and for your team. And so, for example, one speed bump, uh, you can leverage technology to help you break your cycle of communication with your team. And so once you set these boundaries of all right, so we're really going to try to curb the after hours communication. So an extra speed bump might be to set your email, um, platform or, you know, make it so you have an alert that pops up if you try to send an email after hours. And some companies have this already implemented, which is great. I wish more did. Where it pops up and it says, you know, are you sure you want to send this email or do you want to schedule it for the next day when the workday starts? I love that idea. So it's kind of just building a speed bump, right, for yourself, for others. Um, so stuff like that can, um, really make a big difference.

Speaker B: All right, so if you're a CEO and Ben has this phrase, I love it, the higher up in the organization you go, the funnier your jokes become. Because nobody will tell you that maybe the emperor has no clothes or whatever, right? So you've read this book, you're like, hey, I'm concerned about this. If you're at the top or have an organization wide remit, what should you be looking for and what are some of the things, you know, you mentioned the speed bumps, but what should you be looking for to be like, hey, we should really look at this for our workforce?

Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say you're in a great position to make some, some real change. Um, you know, I think broadly speaking, you know, conduct some employee surveys, some pulse surveys to see what are their concerns, uh, what do they like about, uh, where they're working? What do they not, like, ask, um, some targeted questions about, um, how they feel, their workload, their work life, balance their communication with their supervisor. Um, all of these, you know, try to get a sense of what's actually going on, um, on the ground level. And if you get a sense that, wow, it does seem that there's a lot of pressure. Employees are feeling a lot of pressure to be always on. Um, and oh, by the way, they're not utilizing all their vacation days and um, you know, so I think gathering data is important, you know, at the CEO level and kind of looking, um, asking um, employees and conduct focus groups would be a good, a good way to get some insight. Um, but you're in a position where you can make a lot of really impactful changes. Um, and so that's an even better position to be in. So read the book. Maybe you'll have some strategies that you pick up from there. But, um, hire some IO psychologists and we can help with that.

Speaker A: There you go. Absolutely, absolutely. So we have a link to your website, which is melissa clark.com and that's M M A L I s s a clark.com and to your book in the show notes, um, anywhere else that you want people to go to find out more about you and what you're up to.

Speaker C: Um, my website's the, a great place you can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. So, um, I'd love to connect with folks.

Speaker A: Excellent. So this has just been a wonderful conversation, Melissa. Hope, uh, you agree. What um, else might you like to share with our listeners? We'll let you have the last word here.

Speaker C: Well, I really appreciate you having me. This has been, uh, really fun and um, I've learned a lot from you two as well. So, you know, I think in writing this book, um, sometimes it seemed almost like overwhelming that um, this is so pervasive in our society. How can we possibly make, um, actionable changes but also moments of hope? And I really was inspired by a lot of the people I talked to. And so, um, you know, look at what the data is showing about

Speaker A: why

Speaker C: we should not continue down this road. Um, look at the four day week, um, data, for example, the trials, um, it's really impressive. And so we can work differently. We don't need to be doing what we have been doing. Um, I would really love to see some monumental changes to how we work and the way we think about work. That's my hope at least.

Speaker A: Our guest today has been Melissa Clark. Melissa, thanks so much for joining us on the Indigo Podcast.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Indigo Podcast. If you like this podcast, please consider helping us by rating us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, telling your friends about us, having us on your podcast, or mentioning us on social media. Our website is www.indigopodcast where you can access more information about us and this episode. Thanks again and we look forward to talking with you again soon.