369. Deepak Shukla: ADHD, Resilience & Building a Business That Lasts

Speaker A: It's an absolute joy to be here with Deepak Shukla. De is a founder and also the main investor of the Pearl Lemon Group. He has had an incredible journey and so many astounding accomplishments such as running 33 marathons, two full Ironman, living in nine different countries, backpacking through 60 countries. He's also a trained British soldier. So many incredible things about Dee. Very excited to be here with him today. Dee. I'm going to call you Dee Dee. Thank you so much for, uh, being here today.

Speaker B: I'm really pleased to be here, Katie. Looking forward to it.

Speaker A: Amazing. As I was preparing for today's episode, I was so blown away by you being a founder and investor, but also you backpack through 60 countries and you've done Ironman men and you have 53 tattoos. Probably more maybe by now since you, since you recorded that you've done so many amazing and wonderful things. And yet I know that just like anyone else, you probably struggled in different moments as a founder running your own company. What were some of the unexpected challenges that, uh, came along the way?

Speaker B: I think the isolation in relation to business ownership is overwhelming at times. I think that there isn't a popular, uh, literature. Let's see. I think you have to go hunting for it. If you just watch the shorts on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, it'll just be populated quite easily because of the algorithm by the overnight sensation at the inexplicably young age. That seems to be the type of avatar that I see that I achieved X at this stage of my journey. And this is how to be like me. And that can really send everyone me. Certainly even at this stage, it can send you into a tailspin or a rabbit hole. That is very counterproductive. And I think that my experience that, uh, really was transformative for me was going through the, the, the Alex Formosi. I don't know whether you coined this. He's probably taken. But the lonely chapter. But no one prepares you for the lonely chapter of business where, uh, uh, after the excitement of the launch day, let's say the, the general state of mind of people. And this isn't Alex Hormozi, this is probably me, maybe, I don't know. I'm sure I stole it from someone else. Is that the general modus operandi of most people is that no one cares. It's, it's you and your idea. And you're going to have to shout your idea out to an empty auditorium for a prolonged period of time before you get any return on it. And the the, the, the insidious demons are uh, to be honest with you, it, it may. It mostly begins with that journey then of self discovery because when you're alone with your own thoughts, then you find out who you really are. Because a lot of us, to include myself, use the external world as, as, as, as. As crutches, as distractions to, to, to, to separate out what's, what's really going on inside. And I think that that has been the uh, most difficult but also most defining chapter of my journey. I think that, that, that, that lonely chapter that I was in, uh, the purgatory almost where you think, you know, you're caught between the hell of the return back perhaps to employment because then you get left with the feelings of what if and I could have, or I should have or I can versus the heaven of great, I'm getting regular paychecks and I built some kind of financial freedom which is you discover even when you get into the bones of it is still an entirely uh, understated thing. So yeah, I think that, you know, the lonely chapter in combination with realizing that for the most part no one cares about what you're doing and trying to reconcile the two. So for me that's been the most defining period of my career. I'd say yes.

Speaker A: And it is something that though people do mention it, they probably don't mention it sufficiently given how significant it is when you run your own company and how loneliness can come in so many different ways somehow. Sometimes your founder and you have a large team, but yet you still feel lonely because you can't connect with them on the same level because you're still their boss or um, lonely because you're a solopreneur and you're doing everything yourself or even lonely when you have co founders because it's still different perspective and maybe you share things differently. Although I have heard that it's less frequent with co founders but still in different ways. And maybe just also the. Like you said, the fact that no one really cares quite as much as you do and it's your uh, job and mission to push it out into the world, which requires a ton of energy and effort and creativity and perseverance and discipline and you kind of need to be a bit strange to put all of that into one or several, uh, projects and ideas and businesses, which is why I think it attracts a lot of neurodivergent people. I've spoken quite a bit about having adhd. I'd be curious if, if you d. If you have ADHD or If you think about that, because I think neurodivergent people think slightly differently and in some ways are better adapted to deal with running their own business.

Speaker B: Yeah, so it's, I have a tattoo maybe about the size of maybe a small, uh, small tablecloth or face towel, let's say maybe a face towel. That's all of these symptoms related to ADHD tattooed on my back because I was, I was, I was desktop diagnosed or anecdotally diagnosed by uh, I think it was uh, a girl that I met couch surfing back when I was 22, 23. She randomly just said to me by the way, do you have, she was a doctor, she said do you have ADHD? And I said what's ADHD? And this was in2011 or 12. I can't remember when it was. I was what's that? And then she walked me through it and I said well maybe. And then I went in and got a proper diagnosis maybe two years later because it came up by another person I met who was also a doctor. The first doctor was Dutch. The second doctor was from Singapore I think, I can't remember. And yeah, so, so, so yes, I guess in answer to your question and then actually interestingly the sales conference that I just spoke at, I was approached by someone who said do you have, do you have asd as in. I uh, think Asperger's is the old term. So, so, so yeah, I think that it definitely does attract or so so it attracts and then it retains a particular type of person. I think the attraction is probably broader than that. But then there's a funnel in type in, in terms of personality, personality subset in combination with, with, with, with resilience. I, I mean resilience I think applies to anything that you need to do that's hard and requires a significant upfront benefit cost to, to, to receive a deferred benefit. So sports is probably the preeminent example of it because it's so, so, so self evident and visceral. Uh, and, and, and, and yeah, I think that it's certainly meant that in terms of my journey, I, I, I've had to in order to learn about how to be a successful entrepreneur. I realized after experiencing a significant amount of pain that I have to learn how, I have to learn a lot more about how to be my best self. So in order to be a better entrepreneur I, I, I need to be a uh, a more resilient, a more stable and, and, and, and, and stayed person in terms of temperament and, and, and that's I think something that means that only a few stay the path Many, many people enter. Uh, some people will struggle and few will remain. And it's made me realize now, after going past my first decade in business, and I equate true business meaning that do you have employees? Do you have a headcount? Do you have to make payroll in excess of 20, 30, 40, 50,000, £100,000amonth? Do you provide for a multitude of people? There's different definitions of business, but that kind of business, where there's a significant volume of external reliance upon your ability to generate income, is quite a divide between solo pre ownership, which is, which is, which is a part of entrepreneurship. But it isn't what. In the same way that maybe I define business ownership, it's like there's a business and it has employees and those employees rely upon the income. And I've come to observe, uh, it's funny, my friend Luke is a hard dude. Says to me something, I have so much respect for anyone who runs a business because he's part of a startup, he's an employee, he's one of, he's a shareholder. But he's not. He's not. But he's like, it's so hard. It's so goddamn hard. So when I meet anyone, um, time is the truth teller. And I've got so much respect for anyone who says, hey, I've been running a business and I've headcount and I've been managing to do it for more than a couple of years. I'd say just well done. Revenue aside, success aside, the fact that you're still here breathing is amazing. So yeah, I think that it's neurodivergence certainly, I'd agree, is definitely, uh, a kind of a prerequisite, I think in, in some regards to running a successful business. Ability to handle multiple things at the same time and necessary to a degree, uh, I think, you know, kind of almost a, uh, focus by way of a lack of focus because you have to juggle a lot of different things at the same time. So, so yeah, no, I'm rambling without a point. I'm in agreement with you.

Speaker A: It, uh, it's also, I think business businesses, uh, attract a lot of, um, adhd, neurodivergent people because of the creativity, the innovation, the think outside the box of following your own rules. And I was looking through a profile, I thought, well, you probably had ADHD because of all the different things that you did right? Trained as a British, uh, soldier and running your businesses and all your Ironman and marathon and that sort of huge creative energy and huge uh, achievement. I'm sure it exists in neurotypicals but maybe more single mindedly so maybe neurotypicals that are just great marathons or maybe just great marathon in business maybe. But the, when it's sort of multiplied like that, it's very common in adhd and because I coach ADHD people I'm quite used to seeing the patterns. But I thought this is such a fantastic example, you're such a fantastic example of how we can use it as a strength. But really, I mean because run successful business businesses and then all these amazing physical accomplishments and then trained as a British soldier and traveled the world 60 countries. Because the thing is being neurodivergent I often see it as it's m. Both uh sided. It can literally sort of paralyze you and block you because you start a lot of things and you don't actually get to accomplish them and finish them or like you did it can be used as that, ah, that sheer sort of pull towards adventure, excitement, novelty, uh, challenging yourself and then pulling it off and actually doing it and succeeding with it. Which isn't necessarily a guarantee when you have adhd. Which sort of leads us to the next point around resilience. How did you, in those challenging moments, for example training as a British soldier or for instance the Ironman, how did you go from the initial excitement which very similar in business, maybe attracts a lot of people to actually going all the way through and finishing it. And in the case of Ironman for example, you've done two, maybe more, I don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I think that. So it is, it is, it is, it is just the two. Although I, my most proud, my most proud accomplishment was recently I did my first ever uh, in one year I was fortunate to do a uh, 100k run followed by a 100 mile run and then a 200 mile run which took me 69 hours across. Yeah, it took me three and a half days and by my first ever run at that distance and I placed 19th which I was really happy about because I never run 200 miles and I never run a hundred miles. And it was my first a hundred miles in I think June and then I said right, I want to do 200 miles in January. No, December. Yeah, January I think it was. So it was a bit of a wild year the year that I moved to Italy. I think that, I think that um, I think there's a combination of things. So if I look at it from more uh, of an academic or science objective based perspective there's a couple of things so I think that give me uh, just by, by, by by chance, to a degree an unfair advantage. So number one I'm part of the diaspora. So the diaspora is ethnic migrants who move abroad in order for a better life that generally trends by data towards people that tend to be more fastidious, more meticulous, more hardworking. And a significant proportion of those tend to outperform their native born compatriots. The British, the Indians abroad, diaspora are one of the most economically successful people across everywhere. You know 40% of doctors in America are Indian and the business owners in the uk, huge, a huge digression to. And it's particularly British Indians, not for example Bangladeshis or Pakistanis for, for whatever reasons there's different problems. That's just number one. Number two in terms of my familial background we come from a history of substance farmers. So my family generationally are farmers by background. Why is that relevant? It's relevant because if you look at for example my, my actual body structure, I'm quite thin and I've got what I think it's called a niotic, I think the term is niotic body structure. So I've got a body, thin legs, lower calf muscular mass that's very well suited to endurance types of activities. And this is documented amongst for example if you look at the ufc there's lots of fighters. The fighters that tend to outperform are fighters with skinny legs. So that would have been Jon Jones, the greatest ever UFC fighter by some popular Crane Israel Adesanya is another example. But there's quite a prevalence of people that are tall and thinner that have a ah, predisposition towards athletic aptitude. Then when I was younger I uh, as part of a test I had a test where they looked at my red blood cells and I was trending towards a little bit like anemic. But my blood, my red, my red cells were shaped in such a certain way that I could process oxygen more efficiently. So it meant that I was able to cardiovascularly perform better without as much energy expenditure as compared to other people. So that's when then I went to a event where they studied my metabolic age or something like this and I was 27 at the time and they said oh, we've never seen this before. I said what's that? Your metabolic ages of a 13 year old? I said what does that mean? I said in terms of your mitochondria and the way that your Body processes energy. You're the same as a 13 year old who's you know, got, got an abundance of energy. We've never seen it that young at this event before. So I think that has meant because of all of that and the diaspora, uh, abroad. My parents grew up, my dad was working 100 hour weeks and it was just normal, it was just what you did because my dad would work 100 hour weeks and if I look at all of my siblings, I'm the only one that perhaps used my energy, let's call it, to drive towards endurance sports. But my sisters will, my sisters will still party until 3am and they're 50, 52 and they'll wake up at 7 and they'll go to the gym and do body pump or do like hit workouts and then they'll go to work. This is, this is just how they live. My, my, my, my, my, my mom is still swimming several times a week and my dad is incredibly active. So, so, so I see that there's a concurrence between, between kind of all of us. So that's some of the kind of backdrop and that has been very helpful with then building the resilience side of it because it was normal that you'd work 100 hours a week. It was normal that you work extremely hard. The problem with the diaspora and that's where a lot of us fall down, is if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what typically migrants, uh, moving abroad for a better life focus upon is the base form of economic needs. So that's basic food and nourishment and shelter. So then the emotional quadrant, if you think about it, is functionally left behind because the focus of my parents is well we put food on the table. And this is quite common in you know, the post war generations. And people talk about this and it's echoed even in today's age when you get some of the diaspora moving abroad. So, so that then meant that what I did have was the anchor to my sale was I was totally messed up in my head for a lot of things.

Speaker A: That's sort of where I wanted to go next. Because I know that you mentioned before that you saw a psychologist that they really helped and so that sort of nicely leads us into how did seeing a psychologist help you and how did it help your business and how did it help you with what you said now with it being all messed up?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that the, I think that I really like the quote from Tony Robbins which is true change comes when the Cost of staying the same is greater than the cost of change. And that happened for me with my now, uh, wife in my mid-20s. There were echoes of it previous to that, where I was in relationships that, uh, ultimately failed for different reasons. But what was consistent between all of them was that, uh, I didn't do any deep work on myself as I came out of those relationships because we both bought to the table significant amounts of baggage. So it was very easy to paint a picture, as Oprah Winfrey calls, speak your truth, you know, the subjective truth of what happened. And because, of course, all history is revisionist history, you can very easy paint this picture to the. To the world and therefore yourself, of a version of how things are. Whereas if you take the kind of Gandhi philosophy, which is be the change you want to see in the world, it takes quite an enlightened person to want to do that. But actually, in practice, it just takes a lot of pain to get you to think that maybe that's the enlightened path, the way of the Buddha. And how do you get there? I just got repeated, excruciating amounts of pain that led me to breaking old frameworks that were imprinted that I didn't know existed. So that would have been how I saw my mum treated by my father and growing up and the monotropic attachment and how you model your primary relationships. So that happened for me. And I think that what happened that led me to understanding that something was very wrong was that, uh, with Daniela for the first time. Unlike my relationships previous to that, where they all came from troubled backgrounds, Daniela came from a, uh, objectively stable background. And then it became eminently clear that I was the one who brought the significant amount of chaos to our relationship. And that relationship failed before it had any opportunity to run its due course for other reasons or otherwise, because of problems that I bought to the relationship. So that was the first real deep realization that, oh, wow, I love this woman. I've led to her, huh, being unhappy, we're no longer together. I really need to fix that. And that's what led me into a journey of therapy. I'd done therapy before that, but it wasn't with the same level of rigor or intent. It was momentary. It was the, uh, hey, I promise I'll never steal from the cookie guitar again, because I've just been caught and I feel bad about it. But come Monday, I'm not going to care and I'm going to find myself snacking. This was a, uh, oh, wow. You need to do a significant Change. And that, and that, that, that was a big moment for me, I think. And it led. It was, it was a painful several years. It was, it was, it was really, really, really hard because of course true change is only seen through a course of months and years and not days and weeks, especially when you're trying to change fundamental parts of your personality. Uh, people, you know, again, it's the whole Instagram TikTok thing. Oh, I quit smoking overnight. I don't think people quit instilled, indoctrinated habits overnight because they can kind of return under elements of duress. And it's just about how, how you manage it and you need to build better coping, uh, mechanisms. And that's when I went through that journey of therapy. I tried psychotherapy, uh, I tried relationship based therapy. I tried a version of the aa, but for relationships. I forget what it was called. I did, I did some stuff, speaking about Freud and Jungian and different stuff and, and in the end it was cognitive behavioral therapy that really led to significant amount of change. But what was unique to that time was that I was in, uh, an environment where I was allowed direct practice, meaning that I was in a relationship with Daniela when I started it. We ultimately would still break up and then got back together again over the years as I continued my journey of change. But I was able to get real time feedback. And what happened to me historically, and this is what often happens where people, I think, fail. Like, learning has to be contextual, otherwise it's difficult to really instill it within, within, within, within your, within your prefrontal cortex or your, your, your mammalian brain. So it goes, you know, because, because practicing it, it's like doing the theory test without ever driving. You're like, great. I had this big relationship that went to shit. Now I'm going to go to therapy, but I'm not able to really recreate the circumstances within which those patterns began to appear. And that's where people think, oh, I thought I fixed it. And that happened to me multiple times where I thought I fixed it. And then I realized you really didn't fix it, dude, because this is still a problem. So yeah, it's, that's been the every. That's led to any of the success that I've had subsequently m. Subsequently in my life.

Speaker A: Interesting. So you're saying how it was the relationship that caused you to take psychotherapy more seriously and then it helped the relationship, even though it was painful and some of the patterns that you thought rewired, you still needed to work on it. Was still more. And, uh, I think that is very common. And there's sort of more layers and more layers. But then you do see progress. And how did you feel that it, um, directly influenced then your business and your success?

Speaker B: I think that, you know what, it's funny, my dad says happy wife, happy life. When you care about something very passionately, it's very difficult to compartmentalize passion. So I think that if you have personal chaos, with the exception of perhaps very few people, it's difficult to compartmentalize that to there not being chaos that, uh, manifests in other areas of your life. So that is the first thing, I think the second thing is that, of course, businesses relationships, because you will develop a team along the way, and whether that's co founders, whether that's employees or contractors, you're going to build relationships with these people. You're going to spend a lot of time with these people, and you come to care about these people. And that will lead to flashes of you bringing your personal. I mean, you know, wherever I go, there I am. You bring yourself to these relationships. So, uh, that has been very helpful. And so, so I didn't anticipate that as being a good upside that, um, it lead to better relationships within business and also lead to better relationship partners within business. Because we often build business partnerships for emotional reasons rather than objective reasons. And I've done that. And that's led to a lot of my first wave of really just bad business partners. And I still sometimes make that kind of mistake in the moment when like, oh, we should do something together, because you're caught up in the moment. But when you look at it objectively, you'd say there's really only one place, I think, where, like relationship and life partners, you can supersede logic because love is the defining judgment in business. It isn't. It's not. Oh, Deepak's a really cool guy, so he's going to be a great podcast guest. I could be a really crappy podcast guest in the end, and that would matter way more than our relationship. Whereas in a loving, uh, relationship, it's the inverse. So, but we confuse the two. So I would conflate the two. So I let. So, so, so, so I think that they're several areas that I think, and often a lot of decisions within business are emotionally driven anyway. You make decisions based on gut and how you feel about stuff. It's got. I keep quoting too many quotables. There's. There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. And I Think that it's most business owners that I meet at, uh, problems that are born of emotion. However, with all of that being said, there's very few business owners that are aware that their problems are truly born of emotion and they want to wrap it up in business logic. When it's not the logic that's the problem. It's, dude, you got. You think it's up here. It's. It's here. You got to do some work here to help, you know, these two sync up. So, uh, in, in, in, in. In so many ways, it's helped me to be honest with you, Katie.

Speaker A: Yes. I mean, what you just shared right now, in terms of a lot of the problems being emotional and people try to rationalize them or think it's in the mind. So common. So common. Because it's so much harder to look at your heart and your feelings and your emotions and your past traumas, uh, than it is to just say, well, there's, there's a logic problem, or that person in the. In the company is creating the problem or is currently the context that we're going through or whatever it is. It's so much easier to project outside and to try and fix the outside than it is to look at some deep wound or to look at some deep fear that we, we have that actually possesses us and shades everything we see and all our perspectives. And that's why I often think that running your own business or any sort of personal project where you fully, fully invested, though I do think a business is all consuming, that's one of the best mirrors because you just get a direct reflection. If you really honest and you look, uh, at yourself in the business and where the struggles are and where the strengths are. And over several years, you can really start to see patterns of things that clearly you do very well and things that you struggle with and why that comes from. And yes, it's very interesting, but it's also quite, um, you need to be quite vulnerable and honest with yourself, I think, and not go through deceiving yourself by justifying, which is a temptation I think we all have.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I definitely have deceived, uh, myself a lot of the time. And that's.

Speaker A: We all do. We all do.

Speaker B: Probably, you know, our companions now are ChatGPT. And Chat GPT is a bloody echo chamber. It just spends all its time reassuring you that you're making the correct decision. So that's, you know, one of the other problems that I also. Now I have this new companion when I walk my Dogs several times a day. Because I'm by myself in the countryside, I, you know, I mumble my sweet nothings to chatgpt. But it's, it's definitely, you know, it's not designed to be disagreeable. And it kind of reinforces, as you said, this, this kind of worldview. So I think that the, uh, the other thing that I would say is that, you know, I say this as to say that we're all works. I'm a work in progress. And I think that we can all revert to base under the right context and in, you know, in a situation. So I feel that the mental work to get yourself to a place to be comfortable with yourself is a life's work as well. And I'm reminded of that sometimes when I do stuff and I think, bloody hell, it's like, I'm 25 years old again. I just did something silly. Why'd you do that for me? And it's like, right, I need to, I need to dip back into the well of self development in that space specifically to kind of level off again. Because I think that there's this sense, you know, decay happens to us all.

Speaker A: Yes. And we all have blind spots and things come back, things that we thought we had overcome, and then they come back or they change and we change and the world change and people around us change. So sometimes new things are triggered. So it's like you said, we're all work in progress and there's, there's always new things. But I think once we do have, uh, those tools and systems and ways of thinking and perspective, and we've done so much inner work, it's easier, though. Still challenging, but it's easier than if we've never done that work. It's, uh, easier to sort of catch yourself and have that awareness and realize, hey, what am I doing? I'm going in victim mindset, what that's about, or I'm back in scarcity, or I'm obviously fear driven, or that was an amygdala hijack or whatever these things are. And then you go, all right, okay, that's interesting. Why did that happen? That hadn't happened in a while. And you've got all this sort of inner thing that gets triggered. But I think self compassion is an important one. When you were saying that, you realize, oh, why am I doing this? When I was 25, in those moments, I was trying to think, all work in progress. And even though we've done a lot of inner work, uh, things can take us by surprise. And Sometimes we can feel that we've gone ten step backwards and we're doing silly things again. But maybe we're super tired that day or really stressed or you know, going through a challenging time. And so there's a reason why these things happen. And I often feel that if we have compassion, which God knows I've struggled with a lot, one of my closest friend is always reminding me, which helps a lot. Um, but I feel the faster we're able to have the self compassion, the faster we can heal and learn from it and move on. And I think if we get stuck in the, in the uh, why did I do that? Or that was such a silly reaction or I can't believe that I did made that mistake again. We sort of get stuck in feeling bad, feeling guilty, feeling shame, feeling annoyed about it and that sort of keeps us blocked. So I often think if we can just somehow accept we messed up, it's okay and then stop and learn from it. It's, it's sort of a fast track. But I think it's, it's still obviously a challenge. But the times I do manage, I do notice it goes faster.

Speaker B: Oh, I agree. I have a uh, business coach I see twice a week and recently one of the things that we do two 30 minute sessions per week on a Tuesday and a Friday, and what we're doing at the moment is dedicating the first five minutes. I put a countdown clock on Google Meet where we meet with the little timer app that they had five minutes of gratitude because I spend so much time in the space. I've got to fix this, I've got to fix that. And that's the problem. I've got to do this. And we go do that by. I forget any sense of what I've achieved and I was like, right, I need to, I need to. So, so, so 100% half of success or half of progress is just remembering lessons that were previously since forgotten. And I think that, you know, that's something that what you're saying reminds me of as I, as I, as I hear it's okay. That's why we're doing that again because I've been, been, been rubbish with recognizing if there's been any progress whatsoever.

Speaker A: Yes. So, so common when you're such a high achiever, which you clearly are, and when you're such a high achiever, it's always about the next goal, the next milestone, the next thing and we sort of forget anything we've accomplished so far. Amazing, Dee. This has been so, so fantastic. So Many golden insights. What would you like to leave the audience with, uh, today, especially if they're a founder, maybe struggling, maybe under a lot of stress or tension, and they want to build a bit their resilience and perseverance. What would you, uh, recommend them?

Speaker B: I'd say building a, uh, reading habit has been the thing that was the prerequisite to getting into therapy. So I would say that there's a, uh, clear parallel with people that self educate. And as much as there's shorts and other ways, there's nothing that you'll get that's quite like the depth of thought that someone puts into putting together a book. And I, uh, still think that that's second to none as a mechanism. So I think that one takeaway that you've got from all of this is, you know, if not us, then use, use books and build a continuous learning habit, I think, because that will, I think, set you up and generationally set everyone up around you for success. If you just get into the act of, I mean, doing what you've got right behind you, Katie, with your, your, your bookshelf. So, you know, be, Be, be.

Speaker A: Be.

Speaker B: Be a lifelong student. Be a lifelong learner.

Speaker A: Yes. There's so much knowledge and joy and so many things stick with me years, years, years later from books. Uh, I think that's amazing. The depth in a lot of books, uh, really stays. And it's very different. Reading a summary of it or just to the person who wrote the book and just listening to a half an hour interview, though you can get the gist of a lot of the ideas. Very often when you read the whole book. Like for instance, when I read the book on Mindset by Carol Dweck. I was very familiar with fixed and growth mindset before reading it. It stuck a different. It struck a different chord when I actually read it and integrated it. So very different. Knowing the ideas and principles and actually reading and absorbing the book. So thank you. That's fantastic, uh, input. Thank you so much for being on the show, Dee. This has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: Uh, I really enjoyed it, Katie. Thank you as well.

Speaker A: Sa.