Fintech Power 50 Podcast - Payments in Progress

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Dave Birch, I'm an author, advisor and commentator on digital financial services. And I'm here hosting the podcast this afternoon and modesty forbids me from mentioning why. Oh no it doesn't. It's because I'm part of the payments power 50. That's why I'm here hosting the podcast. So we're talking about payments in progress, we're talking about what's new and different in the space. And I've got two people who are going to help me discuss that from slightly different directions. Two, Julian and Reinhart. And I'd like them to introduce themselves to you now. So Julian, would you like to go first, give people an inkling of why it is I've asked you here and I'm listening to what you say.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks Dave. So, Julian Faradi, I've been working in payments for 20 plus years now. Entered at the time that EMV and E commerce was becoming the key driver for business. I've been working with a few technology vendors over uh, the years. Um, today I'm sales director for bpc, uh, who's an industry leader in the world of payments. Um, we're looking to support bringing real life to digital as she's streamlining the way the business works and really getting to understand sort of what's driving things. And part of this conversation hopefully this afternoon around what consumers expect, what businesses require and how we can do that and how as BPC we can support them with our uh, with our payments

Speaker A: platform and Reinhardt, why are you here?

Speaker C: Hey, uh, thank you for having me here today. So I'm Reinhard Hulchiese, uh, I'm the SVP product and technology at Jumio. Uh, we are one of the leaders in online identity verification. So uh, we ensure uh, folks uh, registering or onboarding with uh, the company are genuine and that it's a real person sitting in front of the camera. I'm in it my entire life, 20 plus uh, years and in identity specifically for almost 15 years. So this is uh, my hot topic. This is what I love to do and it's this kind of combination of technology and product which is super exciting for me. And yeah, uh, this is why here. And I'm looking forward to a, uh, really awesome and exciting conversation about payments.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. And if I just briefly explain to people where my thinking has come from, you'll understand why I've asked a long time payments expert and a longtime identity expert here to discuss it. So last month the financial conduct authority here in the UK put out their horizons, what they call their horizon scan. So this is, you know, looking at the key technology trends in the three to five year timescale. So in other words, it's not, you know, what are the tactical responses that companies are uh, uh, working, uh, on right now, but what should they be thinking about next? And in that sort of strategic time frame, they identified three areas. Of course, the only reason I'm saying this is because they agreed with what I said. I mean it was difficult. You won't be hearing anything about this at all. Uh, but actually. But their key three things were the same as my key three things. And I thought, well, that's a useful cross reference that makes me think I'm on the right track. And what they said was, uh, you know, the number one, without any shadow of a doubt you wouldn't be surprised to hear, is AI. So I want to spend a few minutes talking about that. They said the second most important thing is they're specifically focused on synthetic identity fraud. But I think we might generalize that to fraud in general, which in my head is an identity problem, not a payments problem. Which is why I'm so glad Reinhardt could be here. And then so he said the third area is tokenization and stablecoins and so on. And as it happens, plug. I'm writing a book about stablecoins at the moment, which is why I'm here. So now you can understand why we, why the conversation has taken this shape.

Speaker B: Then I need a free thought of your book, Dave. Is there something stable coins I'm still getting my head around. So, uh, look forward to uh, receiving that, but I think we're considering it

Speaker A: done, although it hasn't been.

Speaker B: I think the points you raise also need to be split into different verticals because certainly in our space, and I've recently spoken on some panels around sort of id, id, wallets, et cetera. But it's also what consumer need, what consumer thinks they need, or what they want and what the business really needs. And I think all three of those points have slightly different variations if you're looking at the consumer or if you're looking at a business process.

Speaker A: I think that's absolutely true. So let's do the consumer one first, uh, so people can see where we're coming from. So let's start with, again, we don't have to stick exactly to what, you know, the FCA said, it's just a useful framing of all of this thing. But if we just, if we start with AI. So one of the Things that I'm curious about is what's different now? Like a year ago we knew that AI was going to be big, but you know, you're out there talking to customers all the time. What's different about this now? Or are you going to tell me it's all just hype?

Speaker B: I think from my perspective, some of it came sort of full circle when I listened to someone speak at M Money 2020 in 2025. So last year, uh, when they were talking about AI in payments and the examples they gave were, uh, fraud, transaction routing and customer service. And I think we'd all agree in the world of fraud and in the world of transaction routing, we've been using machine learning and models for a long, long time, which now has a sexy name of AI and that's what everyone wants to call it. So I think what's really changed is everywhere you go now, I mean we used to be us payment geeks talking about AI and machine learning. Now you've got people in the pub talking about AI and the latest attack that was announced this morning, where the AI testing went rogue and broke out of a secure room and things, uh, it's kind of, I think for me it's part of general life now. I'm not saying people understand it or know what they're going to do with it, but everyone wants to talk about it, which is, doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing, the best thing, but uh, it's on everybody's mind whether they know it, need it or anything else it might be.

Speaker A: Reinhart, uh, what do you think's different about it now? I mean, you must have been thinking about this stuff for a long time.

Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And if you would have asked me two years ago about my kind of prediction of AI development, I think I would have been completely wrong. Maybe not completely, but off because I was not expecting the scale and the speed of the development and uh, the general availability of those tools for the mass market. And mass market for me also translates into criminals and fraudsters. Right? So they are now exploiting basically loopholes by using off the shelf AI products, uh, which are so sophisticated that it's really hard to keep up. And I usually, when I'm on panels, use the word of that. Fraud has been industrialized, so it's now automated AI agents are uh, working for those criminals and fraudsters to produce en masse synthetic IDs and selfies and fakes and whatnot. And I think that is what had massively changed over the last 12 to 18 to 24 months.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think if we take that further, I mean, it's always been that the fraudster is one step ahead of the person they're trying to scam. That's just the nature of the world. They've leveraged technology to be successful for what they're doing. And I guess the double whamming now is they, uh, have AI to help them do it faster. But if I understand what I'm reading, AI can actually give them new ideas on how to scam people and do more fraud. So it hasn't just doubled the impact, it's quadrupled or more the impact. Because now AI is actually giving them ideas and assisting them doing things that they probably haven't even thought about.

Speaker C: Uh, absolutely. So it's not just using AI to generate fix, that's one angle. But it's also using AI to find other security loopholes in the entire chain. Right. From onboarding, uh, throughout that entire user's journey. Right. Entires, users life cycle, essentially.

Speaker A: I mean, you're scaring me already by talking about this stuff, but presumably you're going to clients with a, with a message of some optimism, some cheer. I mean, what are you actually, what are you guys actually doing about this?

Speaker C: There are plenty of things we, we can do to fight against that new, uh, threat. I'm obviously not talking about all of it because there is some secret sauce, uh, though it's thinking about identity more holistically. So first of all, I'd say it's not just the physical plastic government card anymore. I think we have passed that a long time ago.

Speaker A: Uh, we don't even have that in the uk.

Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. You guys only have driver licenses, right? So. And this notion of let's check David once and then trust him forever, I think is also, uh, not the right one, uh, anymore. So it's really about continuously looking into someone's identity by taking signals, sensor data, camera photos, behavior, location into consideration. So this kind of picture of an end user helps us to better understand if this is a real person or no. If AI is just driving that.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that gets extended in the basis that, uh, there's more of a shift. And if you actually look at job roles within financial institutions and things now, fraud is almost now seen as a slightly soft topic. There's more and more roles and conversations regarding financial crime, because that's what it is. And I think the areas that AI are really helping alongside what Reinart's doing with ID and things is really firstly the speed of detection and the speed of building a defense, but it's also building that holistic view. So actually don't just look at one channel and say, is this E commerce fraud? Is this card fraud? Is this account to account fraud? You need to look at everything. And that's how you really determine is that the real person. Because we all transact over many different mediums, different channels, and fraud will generally hit one of those. But if your fraud department, your financial crime team, can actually look at that and say, well, in all of the things that Julian normally does, that isn't something he'll do looking at things in the hole. And then you can pick up and understand and do something about it. I think the other area and AI helps a bit because of the speed is actually really making sure that financial crime and fraud remains something that is not competitive between different financial institutions. It's a collaborative problem. If one gets hit, they all get hit. If one institution is told to transfer, uh, someone's life savings to a specific account, every other institution should be told, don't send money to that account because it's being set up by a scammer. And so it's using AI in lots of different ways, which means the sum of its hold is much better than the individual parts.

Speaker A: So it seems to me that one of the big differences between this year and last year is this year much more of the strategic focus is on what customers are going to do with AI rather than what banks might do with it. So go back to Reinhard's point. The sort of the evolution of financial services has been subject to quite some significant pressure now, because I suppose you could say in the old days, it was the banks that commanded the technological heights. I mean, the banks could choose, you know, mainframes and whatever and decide how things are going to work, what your app's going to look like and all this sort of thing. But you know, Google and Anthropic and they're busily giving customers, you know, this super powerful AI. And at the risk of being a little bit controversial, I wonder if payments are going to be an early. Let's, uh, say, let me challenge you and say victim of this. And what I mean by that is for most people, most of the time, payments are just not that interesting. I mean, we love them and we spend our whole time thinking about them, but normal people don't. And if you're running a business, you really want to think about other things. So as soon as AI comes along and starts to take care of this for you, Even the smallest, you know, the. And I'll use the typical example everybody uses of an SME. You know, the plumber will have his own treasury manager. He won't think of it like that. But even the plumber will have an AI that's doing this sort of thing for him because why would he want to spend any time thinking about payments when he can offload it to AI? So I think the payments industry is going to be quite early in to this issue of what happens when the customers aren't.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's a good point. And payments as they are will still be required because money still needs to move locations. I think the really important area that, uh, there's a lot of work within BPC and other payment companies and I'm m working with companies like Jumio to actually ensure there is trust between the agents that are going to be playing key roles in this new world of commerce. So if I want to go and buy something, I need an agent. I need to instruct it, what I want it to do, how much I want it to spend, what criteria, and it needs to know it's me and I need to trust it with my payment credentials, be that accounts or cards or whatever. On the flip side, the merchants are going to have their own uh, agents which are advertising the goods for sale and these two agents are going to come together and somehow they need to then trust each other. And I think that's the part that we are possibly missing that's going to unlock this. I mean, yes, it is the new way of the world or there are some real gaps that need to be addressed and things like trust, id, digital id, payment mechanisms all need to be built around that model of trust that's going to enable that interaction to occur.

Speaker A: So that takes us neatly into the second area then Reinhart. So, uh, this issue of digital identity, not as a nice to have or as a convenience, but as a fundamental building block in this fight against fraud accelerated by the agentic stuff. But as Julian just touched, uh, on there, we don't have any way currently of identifying agents or understanding. And it's a compounding problem because, well, you know the demo you always see on like a money 2020 or whatever, it'll be, oh well, my agent will go and buy a plane ticket for me. That's always the example that they use. But how does my agent know it's really talking to British Airways? How does British Airways know it's talking to the real Barclays agent? How does it know that agent is operating on behalf of Dave Birch and is operating with the constraints. How do we know it's not a North Korean agent that's been subjected? Like, it seems to me it's very easy to talk about this stuff, but when you go one level down, there's nothing there at the moment. Or am I. Please reassure me, Reinhard, that you're doing some work on this.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, and I think everyone in the industry is working on that. So a lot of different initiatives are going on to build protocol we can all use moving forward to kind of do that authentication, right, between agents, between, uh, platforms at the moment. What we see, and we have, you know, done demos similar to what you said. Uh, David, buying something, right. Just using AI is simply using MCP servers. So that's pretty straightforward. But there is nothing in regards to authenticating anything. So it's really just making a payment. So you don't know if the agent is authorized, you don't know the scope and uh, the intention as. As well. So this is something which is a prerequisite for everything, not just the payment industry. And on top, and this is really critical, we still need to understand that behind an agent there has to be a human, because regulatory requirements still apply. So regulated industries, they need to ensure that you're not on a sanctions list, right, that, uh, you're not a pep. So this is not going away by just using an agent. So that's the second kind of layer which is critical of. We need to keep continuing to ensure that behind an agent there is a real human being moving forward. Things will be a little bit easier if digital IDs are rolled out large scale because we don't need to rely on physical IDs anymore, which are way easier to tamper.

Speaker A: Well, this does make me think that, and I am curious as to your genuine feelings about this. We're about to see the introduction of the European Digital Identity Wallet and also the European Business Identity Wallet. So it seems that in Europe, okay, it's not going to happen instantaneously. These things will take a little while to. But we do at least see a, uh, sort of path towards improving in that area. Is that a fair comment to make?

Speaker B: Yeah, there's part of a path, from what I've seen and conversations I've had around this particular topic. Uh, is that, uh, yes, there's some guidelines from the European Union on this, and I guess the UK would look at those as well. But as I understand it, it's down to each country or each member state to actually create the wallet that they want to use or have it look in flow and things. So you still risk a slight disconnect and winding back to the point of agents talking to agents to buy this, to buy that. Is that really what consumers want today? I can understand businesses working in this space and having potentially teams of people that are instructing agents to go and do something at another business to basically restock their warehouse or something like this. But I do think it's a way off, certainly on the consumer space. And I think sometimes in the payments world we do like to try and come up with things that we think are really cool and sexy that actually don't really fix a problem. In some cases they could potentially cause a problem. Because in this case, if it's agents talking to agents and there is a rogue agent and there's fraud, where does that sit? How does that get resolved? So what's the feeling?

Speaker A: What's the feeling out there in the marketplace? Because, I mean, I didn't have time to go and look it up, but I think bpc, you must have four or five hundred institutions on your books.

Speaker B: Yes, we do. Sorry, Raina, you wanted to say something?

Speaker A: Uh, oh, I apologize.

Speaker C: No worries. From my perspective, the train has left the station and I'm talking about the European Union now, specifically. So there is a hard deadline by end of this year that every member state needs to come up with, uh, its own European Union digital ID wallet. And the majority of the countries already did. And by next year, December 27, all regulated businesses need to accept digital IDs. We might see a little bit of a delay there, but it is already working. In Austria, for instance, more than 4 million people are ah, enrolled into the digital ID, uh, schema. I'm using it every day to open a bank account to log into my government services. So it's working. And the great thing is it's the same standard across Europe. So as a, uh, receiving business, as a relying party, you need to implement just one standard. So I think that's helping everyone with the scaling. But at the end of the day, and I think it's the customers who will make the call. And I always compare it a little bit with the Apple payments. Right. So 10 years ago I was super skeptical about paying with my phone, onboarding, um, my credit card into my iPhone. It changed entirely. Now 99% of my payments are tap to pay with either my phone or my watch. And it's because it is so convenient and I know it's secure. And I think if we achieve that with digital identities as well. It's a done deal.

Speaker A: Well, I hope we can make some progress there because I think it's going to be very difficult to tackle this tidal wave of AI generated fraud that Julian was talking about unless we have m a much stronger set of defenses in the form of identity authentication and authorization technologies.

Speaker B: So yeah, and I think the other point is that uh, you are uh, asking about where are companies like BPC on this journey with agents. And I think the ID part that Ryan I mentioned is really good at, ah, ensuring the speed and making the whole onboarding process between business and business easier. But I think the whole sort of AI and agentic journey is working at different speeds in different locations. There are lots of different component parts that are there to assist an agentic world. Visa and MasterCard both have specific card products to enable you to determine what level of spend on an agent would come from a debit product versus a credit product versus a charged product. And what we've seen as BPC is that being adopted quite widely across Asia. So we supported one of the first banks in Asia to launch with visaflex. It's becoming a thing in Europe slowly but I think Europe is generally a little bit more cautious. It is still sort of more tech, tech focus on um, in the Asian side. So that's kind of one, one step that's coming. I've been talking to companies which have started to create the framework for agents to communicate to each other and that's going to be something else has to evolve a long time and then around that say it's the loyalty and the trust. And I think the trust comes from partly what Reinhart was saying around digital ID and how agents and how other systems are going to utilize that digital ID to confirm. Yes, it is Reinhart on this side and the merchant on the other side. I think the bit that is possibly a challenge will be for some of the merchants in this space. Obviously you have the large sort of tech companies that act as merchants and marketplaces that have hundreds and thousands of people looking at all of this. But it's going to be how are the smaller merchants that are working in an E commerce world today going to adopt it? And I think from that side what we've seen is that uh, and it might be the first step, it's a real push towards supporting pay by bank as an option at ah, e commerce sites. Before it's always been cards, it's been PayPal. You could use Google Wallet if you're doing it on a mobile device. But there's more and more wanting to use open banking and use pay by bank as an option. And I think that might also be one of the sort of first steps towards moving towards a more sort of uh, agentic world using agents and things that people just understanding different ways of being able to spend and move money really.

Speaker A: So this takes us into the third area which is the sort of tokenization of stablecoins and things like that. I can't help but feel that like there's some real change in that space and part of this is the shift towards wallets rather than bank account. If I can characterize it like this, the shift towards wallets rather than bank accounts as the sort of fundamental building block of uh, financial inclusion of payments, of interaction between customers and citizens and the infrastructure. This wallet world I think is going to be very different from the world that we've just spent the last 20 or 30 years building payments in. Do you think that's a realistic view or do you think I'm just falling prey to all the hype?

Speaker C: I think there is certainly some truth uh, around that. What I hear when I talk to, you know, customers or prospects or when I'm on panels is there is a lot of jet around the uh, again the European digital identity wallets because they also enable private companies to build their own wallets so you can store your digital identity in a non EU wallet wallet as well as long as they are following the same standards and principles. So there will be hundreds, I personally think that there will be hundreds of wallets moving forward offering different incentives to end users to use theirs. Right. So because why should I use a wallet BPC for instance. I'm just making this up now, uh, created if there is no incentive from a consumer perspective. Right. So I see that. I believe there will be a lot of kind of movement in the market, a lot of experimentation over the next couple of years until we will see a consolidation similar to other industries.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think I agree with that. I mean I think for, for the consumer it's all down to convenience. And I actually kind of scribbled a few notes and one of them was kind of loyalty stroke benefits. What, what do I get from doing this? And more and more people want to see that benefit. And actually I can use the area where I live as kind of what I see as a sample of this. The uh, talking to a local merchant just happens to be a baker. They went through three different acquirers in about a period of two months. And because I'm probably like Dave, a bit of a nerd. You go in, you see what names on the. On the terminal that you're tapping your phone to.

Speaker A: I can't help it. You can't help it.

Speaker C: Look, can you?

Speaker B: I actually asked them about it and they like looked at me weirdly go, how did you know? I said, well, because there's a different name on it. And essentially their business problem was that they went with an acquirer that gave them a good rate for Visa, MasterCard and charged a lot of money for everything else. And the demographic in the area where I am has changed. And he said, well, our problem was we were paying a fortune for taking transactions. I'm like, well, why? He said, well, 80% of our transactions were made on Amex cards.

Speaker A: And you live in a richer part of the country than I do, obviously.

Speaker B: So I could only assume from that that there's some benefit, whether it's BA points or whatever it is that's giving them that, and that is what's important to them. And the merchant just has to. To get with it. I think the other thing on convenience, which I've also seen is, uh. And it sticks on the same theme of the cost of making a purchase, which in general I don't think people on the street don't think about, is actually the growth of the account to account payment. So on the occasions I go to a barber, I can pay them by bank transfer. I can go to a local car wash. They've now got their bank details stuck on the wall. So you can do it. It's no longer cash only.

Speaker A: I wanted to drive down a bit on the account to account because, see, one of the other things about wallets is they might be a better front end to these things. And so you can see that in the past, decisions about whether I would use my card or account to account or whatever would be made by me. And so it's like I can't be bothered to type in the IBAN and whatever, so I'll just. But again, you know, you're shifting to this world where it's not just me controlling these wallets, it's AI. And so if I say to my phone I've got Claude or something and I tell it, you know, can you pay the hairdresser £15? It might well be that account to account is the cheapest, simplest, best way to do that, which I wouldn't do because I can't be bothered to type in Ibans and names and addresses. But actually for AI, it's no problem. So there's a relationship between this shift towards wallets and the utilization of the payment systems that are connected. And also one of the reasons why I'm obsessed about wallets in this space is wallets are the way that we manage the identity data as well as the payment data. We bring it together. And this is why I think in Europe we're set for uh, kind of more change in payments than we've been used to for a while.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think if Brianard what you were saying regarding the wallets, if the wallets are then integrated with werow that's being pushed around and things then suddenly you've got the European payment mechanism, which is essentially account to account sitting beside the digital id. Everything just exactly.

Speaker A: They come and it becomes manageable for consumers because they won't think of it in that way. To them it's just a convenient thing on their phone.

Speaker B: Well, no, I mean, I know in the UK there's a very large retailer that wanted to kind of find a mechanism to put pay by bank or account to account payment details as part of their loyalty card. So that essentially if you tapped your loyalty card you could then say pay by account and it would have all your details and it would work. It's never seen the light of day as far as I know. But potentially with things. But it's the logical way for union that may happen. So

Speaker A: you guys are much too interesting. I've got three and a half pages of questions here. We've done like that much, but we're running out of time. So going to, I'm going to, I'm going to come back to you about the future a little bit more and uh, because I'm searching for optimism here about we're not going to drown in fraud and everything's going to stop. Um, so let me just ask you to look forward a little bit if we're having this conversation again in five years time. You know, economists have this concept of things which they call weak signals for change. In other words, things which at the time you don't really notice them. It's. Oh, that's interesting. But then when you look back you realize, oh, actually that was a big, you know, that was a big deal. And I'm just wondering if we're having this conversation in five years time and looking back, what are one or two of the things that you see around us right now which you think are uh, actually those weak signals for change, things that we don't quite recognize now but actually mean, things are going to

Speaker C: be quite different I wouldn't call it a weak signal. I think there are a few of those obvious candidates. We talked about identity and specifically digital identity. I think that.

Speaker A: Let me ask you in a shorter way then I'll come back and loop back. So I want to finish with a bit of optimism because I want to feel that we're not going to all drown in fraud, grind to a halt and payments will become so expensive we can't use them. So let's just say we're having a coffee in five years time. Oh, remember when we made that podcast and you're looking back on it, what's happening now, which you think you will look back on as like uh, a. This was something that really did mean change was coming.

Speaker C: Yeah. Or for me it's really about uh, the digital identities and the European Union initiative to streamline cross country identity and authentication and verification because that will be an enabler for large scale agentic AI usage. The right way as, as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I take that and add to that that I uh, think in five years time potentially we will all have our own AI agent that we've trained, it knows about us, is able to access all the information of how we do things, which is going to help the trust be built by wherever we're purchasing from. I guess my only caveat to that is do we end up with an agent per bank or is there uh, literally alongside your digital id, which is in theory only one because there's only one of you, one agent that you then instruct it how, how to act on your behalf. And I think that that's where we will end up. And I think five years is a good timescale for that to actually be something that is really starting to happen.

Speaker C: I agree with you Julian, though I think from a consumer perspective I'd say it doesn't really matter what's happening behind the scenes if there is one agent, if there are 500 agents, as long as we know it acts on our behalf and it properly authenticates and does the right things, that's fine. And I can even imagine that maybe we don't even use apps the way we are using it right now. Maybe there will be just one application, a super application taking care of everything because essentially AI controls it. Right.

Speaker B: Well in theory we won't need an app because as David was saying, you just ask it to do something and something somewhere is going to happen.

Speaker A: If you look at what the sort of futurists are uh, saying, they're saying we're coming to the End of the app era. You know, we grew up in the era where you downloaded apps for things. But that's going away because you're getting to the point where you'll just say to the phone, but this also makes me wonder about like the context for payments then, because I think you're right about this. But what does that mean? Because nobody, you know, you'll walk out of Ikea and a thing will pop up on the phone which says you owe €97.50 or whatever and you'll say yes, okay, or you put your thumb on it or something like that. But as a normal person, to Reinhard's point, like, you neither know nor care whether it's, you know, Is this an 8583 pull? Is it a 222 push? Is it a stable coin? Are we using CBDCs? You won't care about any of that stuff because.

Speaker B: No, And I think that's why it is the deciders. Yeah. And I think that's why you said like putting that five year timescale on it. It makes sense because there needs to be a mindset shift in what we. What, what and how we do things. Because was it, I think both Apple and did Tesco as a supermarket chain have unattended stores that you'd walk in, scan goods and walk out and it would automatically take payment as you were scanning things in and basically they shut down because people would do their shopping and then look around for some way to pay. Because it's in our minds that uh, we have to go and physically do something to pay. So if we do move to a world where essentially the experience is doing the shopping, is buying whatever you want to buy, it's not paying for it at the end of the day, which is essentially what people want. You will, and this is, sorry, bring it back to uh, Tenchi Sauna. You will have stores that don't have what they don't have staff in at checkout now anyway, because it's all self service. But you won't even be scanning. You will scan as you go around and whether that ends up being an individual payment every time you scan or become um, a basket that automatically gets paid because it triggers you walking out the store, that that's potentially where, where it's going to go and certainly where the technologists, I would say, want, want us to go to.

Speaker A: So there's not a very optimistic view for point of sale manufacturers. The posies are just going to vanish. Well, look, thank you very much guys. I really appreciate talking to you. And I just want to reiterate to people listening, they didn't know what questions I was going to ask them. They gave you their honest opinions from a professionally well informed point of view. And I hope you enjoyed listening to them as much as I did. Reinhard, Julian, thank you so much.

Speaker B: Thank, uh, you. Thanks, Reinhardt. Good to see you both.