Engineering Your Future with Jossie Haines

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Empowering Women Podcast. I am your host, Shannon Baumgarner, and on behalf of Empowering Women in Industry and our, uh, incredible founder, Charlie Carruth. Thank you for joining us as we continue to connect and educate and empower women across industry. Today's episode, it's a special one because it is releasing on International Women in Engineering Day, a global celebration of the women who design, build, solve problems and shape the future through engineering.

Speaker A: At first glance, this might sound like

Speaker B: a conversation about technology, algorithms, or artificial intelligence, of course. And yes, we talk about all those things in today's episode. But what struck me most is that some of the most important forms of intelligence, they aren't artificial at all. They are human. The ability to connect ideas across disciplines. The courage to redefine success when the path you're on no longer fits, the judgment to navigate ambiguity, the resilience to recover from burnout, and the willingness to keep growing in a world that seems to change faster every day. Today's guest, Josie Haynes, has lived all of those lessons firsthand. She is a Princeton educated engineer, technical Emmy award winner, former VP of Engineering at tile, and an executive coach who helps technology leaders navigate growth, leadership, and the rapidly evolving world of AI. In our conversation, we explore everything from imposter, uh syndrome and workplace culture to creating opportunities that don't yet exist. We talk about building influential networks and why the leaders who thrive in the future may not be the ones who know the most, they may be the ones who remain the most curious. So whether you're an engineer, a leader, or simply someone trying to figure out what's next, I think you'll find something meaningful in this conversation. So settle in, stay curious, and enjoy my conversation with Josie. I will see you on the other side.

Speaker A: Foreign

Speaker C: welcome back, everyone, to the Empowering Women podcast. And today's episode was especially meaningful. Well, really for me, because we're releasing it on International Women in Engineering Day. Uh, it is a day dedicated to recognizing the women designing, building, and shaping the future around us. As an engineer myself, I love any excuse to celebrate the women proving every day that technical brilliance and human centric leadership absolutely belong in the same room. And today's guest, well, she knows firsthand what it's like to succeed at the highest levels of tech without losing your humanity along the way. Josie Haynes is a Princeton educated engineer,

Speaker B: a Technical Emmy award winner for her work integrating Siri with Apple TV.

Speaker C: She's a former VP of engineering at Tile, and a leader with more than 25 years of experience across Apple, Zynga and Tile.

Speaker B: And what I love about her is she's refreshingly honest about the realities of

Speaker C: behind that, all that high achievement, including burnout, redefining success, and learning how to lead in ways that are both ambitious and sustainable. So, Josie, I am so excited to welcome you to the Empowering Women podcast.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm, I love these conversations, so I'm excited.

Speaker B: Well, here on the podcast we love

Speaker C: to start at the beginning. And you've had quite a remarkable career, I know, especially with Siri. People probably love you or hate you one way or another.

Speaker B: So what first sparked your interest in

Speaker C: engineering and what's kept you passionate about it over the years?

Speaker A: Yeah, so my passion for computers actually started when I was 5 years old and this will age me. I got a Commodore 16 and I, I fell in love with computers and I fell in love with technology. Um, my parents wanted me to be a doctor, so my degree at Princeton is actually in chemistry and material science.

Speaker C: Interesting.

Speaker A: But my junior year I realized I had no interest in going to grad school. And so I was like, well, I gotta do something. And so I got a job as a technical consultant for PricewaterhouseCoopers. And the first was send us to a three month boot camp, Learn to code. I fell in love. I loved it. And um, they sent us, and I did so well. They sent me here to the Bay Area where I live today. And um, it was the middle of the dot com boom to do some training. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is where I want to be. It was 1999, like technology was going to make the world a better place. And I was like, that's where I wanted to be. They would move me out here. So I said, that's okay, I'll get a job. So I came out, interviewed, got a job at a tiny little dot com startup as a web engineer. And In February of 2000, I moved to the Bay Area knowing literally two people in California.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. Talk about a leap of faith.

Speaker A: It was, it was a big leap of faith. And I think my parents might have been a little bit like, but you're going so far away. And then, you know, my passion for technology, like I just love playing with computers. You know, I play video games. I, you know, I, I love, you know, I haven't, I wasn't coding that much. I do have to say AI has been really nice of getting back into to coding more and it's kind of brought that spark. But I would also say, you know, it's also not just like a linear line. Right. Of keeping that, uh, passion Alive. And in 2018, when I left Apple, and I'm sure we're going to talk about that in a little bit, like, I thought I was going to leave tech entirely. I was like, I'm done with this industry. Like, I'm tired of it, so.

Speaker C: But, but you didn't. I love it that you stayed because I think there's a lot of, well, women. If I pick on myself, I'm still in manufacturing and around engineering, but my day to day is not engineering. And I think there's quite a few women that can say that they either leave entirely or they just stay. Engineering adjacent is what I'll call it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So kudos to you for staying in the good fight because I think engineering can still be a space where women either feel or actually are the only one in the proverbial room. So we just touched on Silicon Valley. I've never been there. We were just joking before we started. It's on the bucket list. So what was it like navigating your career in Silicon Valley? And were there moments where you had to consciously decide for yourself that you belong there?

Speaker A: Yes, I think it is very much an intentional, like, I belong decision on a regular basis. And it also, honestly, it truly depends on your support system throughout your career. Right. Um, early in my career, I, I actually didn't notice as much. I mean, obviously I noticed I was the only woman in the room often, but, you know, I had grown up kind of a tomboy and all of my friends in high school were guys. So I was like, all right, whatever, like, it's fine. But then, like, there were certain experiences where it was like, oh, I'm not gonna get promoted unless the guy on the team gets promoted, or. I really, I think I really first noticed it. Um, I started managing when I joined Zynga. Ah. Um, I started as a senior software engineer and got to director in three years. Um, and so that was in 2010. And my career story there, I worked for really supportive managers and had a great support system. But gaming is known to be even notoriously worse for women than tech in general. And I had other peers who did not have the same, uh, experience of feeling belonging. Right. So even within a company like, you know, they always say that your manager really makes a difference and whether you're, you stick around a job or not. And it also really depends on, like, whether you feel like you belong. Right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, but there have been Times when I had to be really intentional, you know, Ah. Uh. When I was working at another company, I was the only woman on the team. It was kind of a more traditional company. And I showed up to a. M. Meeting. I was defending my team, and I literally had. And I was the only woman in the room. And I literally had a guy turn to me and be like, well, aren't you being feisty today?

Speaker C: And you're like, aren't you feisty every day?

Speaker A: Just like, well, hello. Uh, move back to the 60s or something. Who calls me feisty? Felt like it was like a madman, like throwback or something.

Speaker C: You're like, checking your. What day is it?

Speaker A: Yeah. What year we in? And then, you know, and then it can also be the little things on the. Like, I belong. Right. Um. Like, when I left Apple, I really had gotten to a place where I was burnt out. I had just gone through a lot of imposter syndrome, and I was really feeling like, I'm done with this industry. Like, I did it, like, check the check boxes. I've managed large teams. I've managed small teams. I've worked on multiple products that billions of people have used. I've done this thing. But I came back because I realized my passion. And it all started with. Right when I joined. When I came out here in the beginning was like, this is about making the world a better place. And I truly believe that with inclusive cultures, we can actually build technology that fulfills the needs of our diverse world

Speaker C: and probably is more applicable now than it's ever been in the world of, uh, generative AI. Obviously, some of this has been around a long time, like machine learning and such, but, yeah, probably never more applicable than today. Well, you just alluded to your burnout at Apple and you've been really open about this. I think you describe it, if I'm correct, as a death by a thousand paper cuts.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and I think there are women out there in this situation, which is why I wanted to have this conversation. What were signals that told you something had to change? First of all, we'll start with that part of the question. Like, what did you feel when you're like, yeah, this is not. This is not working.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, it's about really learning to pay attention because it is often not, like, one huge thing. And yes, I have friends who have gone through, like, serious sexual harassment issues or serious toxic management situations.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And this was not that I call it. One of the things I talk about is, like, you've got this bucket, right? And you, like, keep having, like, little things added to the bucket. And it was, you know, not being invited to lunch with the team. It was, you know, uh, watching everybody else get to go out to, like, concerts and stuff and talk about the great things they were doing together. And you're like, okay, am I invisible? Right? It was literally at one point I got in a. I had somebody apologize for assuming that I was the technical program manager instead of the engineering manager. And this had happened so many times that I hadn't even, like, it didn't even, like, register until they sent me an apology letter. And I was like, oh, my gosh, how many times has this happened that I have now literally had somebody email me an apology for this happening. And, uh, it finally came to, you know, waking up in the morning and just dreading going to work. I, you know, I got, we, uh, I was, you know, for the leaders. They gave them coaches. And, um, you know, we did like, this 360 feedback session. And I, right. And I got some 360 feedback that, like, really was hurtful. Like, it wasn't like, constructive feedback. And I was so upset by it that I actually literally called my old boss, like, crying. I showed up crying at his house, like, from my previous job and was like, am I a terrible manager? Right. By the time I left, I literally thought I was awful at managing, despite the fact that I had people on my team as I was leaving telling me I was the best manager manager that they'd ever had.

Speaker C: Yeah. And so people often think that burnouts, long hours. And I'm not saying that wasn't a contributor here. Oh, it was, but, but it was more than that. It wasn't just the long hours. And I, I, I think that's one of the takeaways I want for our listeners to have is burnout can be. I'm working 60 hours a week and I'm trying to do things at home with my family. And it can be that, but it also can be a lot of those death by a thousand cuts, to use your phrase.

Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I'm now, I'm an executive coach for Women in Tech leadership and other technology leaders. And, uh, literally all of the women that I end up working with, like, suffers some sort of burnout around the. And it's, and it is literally around this, like, not feeling included. Peace. Right. And so, like, don't gaslight yourself. Like, because often women show up and are like, but, yeah, yes, there's the long hours. But, like, why can't I just Handle this right. And it's like, we tend to dismiss these, like, little things.

Speaker C: Oh, that is so true. And I think the thing I asked myself was, well, is it me? Like, is it just my perception or my interpretation of the context or the environment?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: I think I gaslight myself sometimes. I think about it. But, um, I think you tell a story about your first work at Tile when you realize people weren't emailing you late night and your first reaction was kind of to your earlier point. Am I being left out? Like, what is going on? What did that moment reveal to you about that workplace culture and how quickly we all can normalize unhealthy expectations?

Speaker A: So to give context, like, I took six months off after I left Apple. Um, my former boss, uh, from Net Happens. And, uh, he actually convinced me. He's like, look, come join this team at ah, Tile. Like, it needs some support. And I was just like, I was very resistant, honestly, at the beginning, I was like, I don't know that I want to get back into this. He's like, look, you can just come in as an ic, you can just like, help the web team. I was like, look, I'll do this, like, 10 to 15 hours a week. I'll come in, like, I'll see for you. I will do it. Right? Like, we had a really good relationship. I was like, for you, I will do this. And, uh, you know, I call it like, PTSD from my Apple days. And I didn't even realize it until I had started that. That role because I. I literally. So there was this. At Apple, there was this, like, unspoken rule that after dinner, all of the TPMs and engineering managers would basically just get back online and work for a few hours. Nobody told you you had to do this, but if you didn't, you were kind of looked down on. Right. Part of the, like, hm, do you belong? Uh, thing. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. It was like work socialization. You were socialized. That was what was appropriate. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, if you did do it, you'd wake up in the morning with, like, hundreds of things to do that happened like, the night before. And. And so I joined tile. I started. I was like. I was like, I'm not getting emails at night. They must not trust me. Like, that was literally like my brain was still in the, like, imposter syndrome at the end. Like, it just, like, it reconnected. The second I ended up back in a workplace, it was like, they must not trust me, me. And the first thing I was given to do that week was actually Fix a memory leak. Um, and the team had been struggling with it for, like, a long time. And yet I was like, it's Friday, and I hadn't solved it yet. And I was like, they're gonna fire me. I was like. I was convinced. I was like, Friday came about, like, because it was a technology stack that I wasn't, like, that familiar with, so I'd had to get up to speed. Speed on it. And I was like, oh, they're not gonna want me anymore. Like, I'm obviously, like, rusty from the technical side because I'd been managing, and I, like, I genuinely was, like, convinced. And then, like, the next week, I fixed it, and everybody was, like, uh, thrilled. But my, like, nervous system during those first two weeks, like, had no clue that this was actually a safe environment, despite the fact that I was literally, like, begged to come join this company pretty much.

Speaker C: That's interesting. So you almost had. Maybe there were more, but two elements of ptsd. You had the socialization of working late, that expectation. If that wasn't happening, what was going on. But then you, to your point, you just said it. The imposter syndrome of I'm not good enough because of the way you got advert, I guess, intentionally or unintentionally left out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Your time at Apple. So you were. It was funny. Like, it took you, what, a day back in the workplace, and you were already reactivating some things you probably would prefer not to reactivate.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, yes. And again, like, I think this is another pattern I see in women. And so it's like. It's one I want to, like, make people recognize because it's, again, one. Like, I feel like we tend to make dismiss as, like, oh, why? Why is this coming up? I'm now in a new environment. Like, I'm now in a new job, and yet, like, I'm dealing with these challenges. Like, Like, I'm judging people as if things were from before. And it's like, at the end of the day, these are, like, little mini traumas that, like. Like, our nervous system treats is, like, not safe. And, you know, often, again, like, coaching clients, like, dismiss it. And I'm like, no, it's. It's actually okay. Like, we need to process, list, and, like, work through it and realize it might show up and, like, but you don't want to be jaded in your new environment and then, like, end up setting yourself up for failure, even though the environment actually could be very different.

Speaker C: That's interesting. So you probably have to coach them on how to Be aware of it and then how to process it once they're aware of it.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. And realize that, you know, hey, it's a safety mechanism. Right. Like our body is trying to keep us safe. Right, right. So it's a safety mechanism, but we can over index on it. And so we need to make sure we're not like over correcting.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, that. Yeah, that's so true. Well, you mentioned at tile you were slightly encouraged, I'll call it, to take a step into the organization, maybe strongly encouraged. Um, so you didn't just, you know, waltz or step into a VP of engineering role. What I love about what we're going to talk about is you created it from scratch, as I understand it. So I feel like I really want women to hear this story because sometimes you have to create what you want for yourself. That might be a nonprofit organization, it might be a role in your company. It could be any, anything. So how did you approach defining that role? Let's start with that and then I'll have a back question for you.

Speaker A: Okay, so let me give a little bit of context. So I started kind of part time at this like web engineer role. I was really thriving. Uh, um, I, I, at first I didn't want to work full time at all. And then like, I didn't really want to work full time for the CEO because he cared a lot about people, like being in the office all day every day. And I'm like, no, I kind of like believe in hybrid work and things like that. A new CEO joined and there was at the same time this like partner platform engineering director role opened. And I had already like, I had started women at Siri when I was at Apple. And so I had developed a mentorship program that I wasn't allowed to start. Part of the where I didn't feel like I belonged. Uh, and so I had actually like presented this to the head of hr, it's Hil. And like I was implementing this with her, even though I was like a part time contractor. And the CEOs like, so there's this like part time contractor doing like all this cool stuff, like, why is she not doing more at the company? So he's like, we should really bring her in for this engineering director role. And I was like, I only will do that if I get to speak to the CEO. And so I talked to him and I was like, look, if you want me to join, I want to make sure you have an inclusive culture and I want to make sure inclusion is not lip service. Right Like, I want to make sure, I want to help lead some of your DEI efforts. Like, I want to make sure that like, this is important. And he surprised me. He actually said, you know, I promised my wife and daughters I was gonna make TILE the best place for women to work in the Valley. And so I joined and we actually did deliver on that promise. Right. Like, and it's, I, it's a team effort. Right. Like, and creating a whole dei.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker A: And inclusive culture is a whole other story. But yeah, um, the thing is like, to this day I still have former colleagues reach out and be like, oh my gosh, I really missed what we created. And, and so I joined as an engineering director and we were growing. Um, I was leading all of our partner integrations, integrating like the TILE technology into pretty much like any other company you hear about in the Valley. Everything from like smart home assistants at Google and Apple to uh, we enabled intel based laptops to behave as tiles. Um, and then I saw this opportunity. We had two really big architecture initiatives that we were about to implement. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, I'd worked for my boss before. I'd actually known him since 2005. He'd been my boss a few times at Zynga and then, uh, here at Tile. Um, we partnered really well together. But he was amazing at just like the deep technical side. And I'm really great at building teams and leadership and m scaling and designing organizations that can successfully build the architecture. I saw this opportunity because we were talking about doubling the team, which meant we actually had to reorg how product and engineering were going to be running because we hit that kind of inflection point where we couldn't just keep the current structure, right. And we, um, and we had to recruit and hire very quickly. And so I created a proposal which was promote my boss to cto, um, make me VP of Engineering and let him focus on the architecture and the technical side. He'll have a lot less direct reports. He can focus on those things and I can really focus on skills, scaling the team, creating the organization, partnering closely with the product and the TPM team and like really setting us up for success to hit our business goals. And so it's not like it got approved right away, but the CEO, uh, loved it and like, obviously they knew that in the back. I wanted to become an executive, right? But I didn't propose it from the like, oh, I want to become an executive and this is why I want to do this. I propose this from the perspective of you want the highest chance of Success through this like high growth period. Like here's what that looks like. And tying it to the business impact is really what made it a reality.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think you just took what I was thinking, which was you tied it back to the business. So you, what I love is you connected your strength with what the business needed. Like that's what I hear out of that story. You knew your strength was kind of like building strategy, building systems, building people, you know, a whole ecosystem. And, and that's what they really needed to take these new initiatives to the next level. They needed a different ecosystem. So I think we've gotten some of it, but there could be stuff I missed. So is there any other advice you give leaders who are looking to shape their own role either internally to their company or maybe out in the community or otherwise?

Speaker A: Yeah, and so I think this relates to like AI right now. Right. Because I feel like there's a lot of fear, right. And especially technology leaders are being asked to do so much more with like less resources. Right. They're being asked to drive this AI strategy, being more hands on, technically manage larger teams, like reduce their teams. And so like there's a lot of pressure and I think a lot of people are feeling a lot of fear. And uh, what I'm telling people is there's a lot of that you can't control. But what you can control is staying open to looking at the possibilities. Right. Because wherever you're sitting in your organization, you have a unique view of uh, what is going on. Right. From your perspective. Perspective. And only you can connect the dots based on the perspective you have in certain ways. And uh, with AI changing things so much, that means there's actually opportunities for you to create roles that maybe don't exist right now and look at it from a new perspective. And that is what is inside your control.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. Basically reframing it, being curious. Like I think sometimes we don't just maybe just go read things that aren't in your normal day to day life or don't pertain to your day to day job. It may not, but it may spark a connection back to that or attend uh, some kind of seminar or webinar that has nothing to do with your job. I think it just keeps your, keeps your mind going as what could be possible.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think for engineers, like we love staying technical, which is great, right? I'm not dismissing the importance of our technical depth, but at the same time we can sometimes dismiss the like, oh, let me go learn about like what the Business is doing. Let me go learn what like marketing is doing. Let me go learn what, like, sales is doing. And yet, the more that you're building those relationships and networking and getting those insights, the more that you're going to be able to internally connect the dots in ways that other people can't. And you will start seeing what those opportunities are.

Speaker C: Yeah. I can tell you that firsthand. So my career, when people look at my LinkedIn profile, they get confused. So I've worked in manufacturing, I worked in engineering, I worked in quality, I've worked in procurement. And, uh, now I'm in more sales enablement and commercial roles. And I would tell you there's a huge benefit. Just I haven't sat in every, obviously every function, like finance, for example, I've not worked in. But when you sit in so many different functions, one, I think it, it makes you connect dots faster and easier. And then I think it also broadens your perspective. You don't go, man, those stupid people in marketing don't know what they're doing. Like, you, you. You kind of step back and go, oh, well, wait a minute, like, what's, what's it like to be in marketing? What does that look like? How can I help them? It really makes you take a step backwards.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, we work very differently from marketing and sales and I think, and even product, uh, you know, and so sometimes I think we get very much like, oh, my gosh, it's us versus them. I don't want to deal with them. Like, they, they bother me. Right, yeah, it's like that. But the problem with that is then you're not making them your advocates.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like, if you actually take the time to really understand their motivations and that you actually have different strengths and that actually is good in an organization you can lean into. Oh, how can I help them? Right. Like, and, uh, then they'll become an advocate for you.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah, that's a good point. I never thought about it that way, but that's a really good point. Well, you mentioned AI earlier, and I will be remiss if I have a tech, a tech person on my podcast that I don't talk about. AI. Um, you often said that leaders should rewrite their roles before AI writes it for them. Um, and you alluded to this that leaders might feel intimidated by AI. I think a lot of us do. I'm not in the computer side. My degree is actually in chemical engineering. So it's, it's a little daunting for me as well. And I Think everybody thinks we need to rush in and become a technical expert overnight, which I don't think is feasible. What do you think effective leadership actually looks like in the era of artificial intelligence?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I think first is like stop going down the LinkedIn rabbit hole. Like you have no idea how many people like come to me almost like this confession about like how much anxiety they have about AI because they feel behind. Like I, I literally like had three conversations last week where somebody's like, I feel so behind on AI and here's the reality, right? I talk to like, like 10 to 20 engineering leaders like every week. And yeah, there are some people like at that very far side where like their entire team is using AI. They're doing it for everything, you know, all those things. But that is a very, very, very tiny percentage. Like the amount of LinkedIn posts about it would think like everybody is there but like the truth is most people are somewhere in the messy middle. I actually know people who work at pretty well known tech companies of products that you use today and they're like barely using AI. And so first I think it's part of it is just there's so much anxiety between AI, the economy, like what's going on in the world. So part of it is just like needing to learn practices to like separate us from that. And because that's we, until we do that, then we're just living in this like fight or flight and we can't be effective leaders in fight or flight. So that's the first thing. But then here's the thing. AI is not good at seeing the big picture, right? Like that, uh, that whole thing that I just walked through about like connecting the dots between like sales and like those, like those like insights that only good at that. AI is terrible at that, right? That is a uniquely human centric skill, right? Building trust, like that is another. So I actually tell people like the best leaders in the AI world are the ones who are leaning in to the human centric skills that they can uniquely use. And then they are realistically looking at how I can help them with the things that are maybe more admin, that are not in their zone of genius, that can help them multiply themselves. Right. Um, like there is a space for AI. Like I use it every day, I find it very helpful. I actually enjoy it. And at the same time I don't think it's going to replace like really true effective leadership. Right? Like judgment under ambiguity. That's another huge one that like AI is terrible at. Right? Like cross functional influence, like AI is not going to navigate the politics of aligning 30 teams.

Speaker C: Yeah, never.

Speaker A: Um, and so it's not about needing to become a technical expert overnight, but you do need to also become clear on like what good looks like as well from an AI perspective. Because I think, you know, I think 2025 was the year of like every board saying in, in this valley, like, oh, everyone must use AI, right? And so like everyone started using AI, right? And I think this year is the year of uh, like, oh, now we're getting our bills and now it's the year of like, oh, how are we actually starting to think about this from the effective point of view? And um, in fact a lot of the research is showing that like that's a lot harder part, right? Like they're um, like, yes, like even when people think it's actually making them more productive, if you look at the end to end pipeline, like more things are not getting potentially delivered if you're not looking at like AI usage holistically across like the entire development life cycle. And so I think it's really important to figure out like, what is the problem you're solving, right? It's like not everything. Like it's almost like, you know, AI is a hammer, but not everything is a nail, right? And like everybody was like, use AI for everything. And it's like, no, let's like, let's go back to fundamental engineering principles and start with like, what is the problem we're trying to solve and what does good and done look like there?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I was just talking to someone this morning. I don't. I uh. Jokingly called Chat GPT that your, your friend that never says mean things to you because you'll say create whatever for me and then it'll come back and, and I'm getting better about like really critical thinking going. I don't really like that. And sometimes I know why, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it's intuition. And you'll come back and say, hey, can you change this sentence to be more like this? And it'll always say, yeah, that's a really good idea. Like it's like the. You rarely get it to say anything that's. I hate to call it negative, but more constructive unless you force it. So if you just take its output without like going through your brain and saying, oh, this doesn't sit well with me. Why does that not sit well with me? That doesn't feel authentic. And to your point, that's just inherently human.

Speaker A: Yeah, And, I mean, you actually can. And so I've gotten my okay to be much better. Like, okay, being constructive, but you basically have to give it instructions where you're like, please look at everything critically. And, like, I'm okay with getting, like, negative feedback from you. From. Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

Speaker C: She just taught me a skill. There you go.

Speaker A: So you can. You can definitely get it to be a lot better than it is by default, by. By changing the default instruction set. But it's still. It still indexes on trying to. To be helpful, but you can make it better, so.

Speaker C: Well, there you go. There's your technical takeaway for the day. I'm going to take notes on that one. Um, I've, I guess a couple of final questions for you. As we mentioned, this is releasing on International Women in Engineering Day. So what advice would you give to women who are early in their engineering careers or maybe considering engineering, but they're not quite sure if they belong in the field yet?

Speaker A: So. So a few things, right? Which is if this is something you enjoy doing and it's like, something that lights you up and sparks you to do it, like, give it a shot, right? Like, try doing it. Um, and I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's perfect. Like, there are challenges, and at the same time, uh, it is really rewarding. It is cool. Like, I love being in the tech space, right? Like, I love being able to think about, like, how do I build things that do help the world, right? And so. And. And, you know, other people like it because they really love solving these cool technical problems, right? So it's. Everybody has a different space spin on it, but if it's something that you're truly passionate about, I'd say, you know, that's what you need to, like, when you start having these, like, doubts about whether you belong, like, it is that, like, desire that keeps people here, right? Uh, that is what I truly see is it's like. But I love doing this. So if that's, like, your spark, definitely, like, the field needs you. We need more women shaping technology. On the advice perspective, um, there's two things I tell people. The first is, remember that while we live in an Instagram world, success does not come up and to the right. Um, my career has gone like this and like this and, like, swirls and up and down and all around many times. And, um, so, you know, I think people think like, oh, my gosh. And I mean, here, success means, uh, you know, in this valley, success means you keep getting more promotions and more pay. Right.

Speaker C: And I, Yeah, I'm not sure that's just where you are.

Speaker A: Yeah, like, there's a huge pressure that that's like, what success means. And I'm not saying you can't want that. Right. But I often run into women who, Who've been doing this for 20 years, and they're like, I, uh, that's not the dream of success that I have. And yet I feel like I'm going to be a failure if I say I want to, like, do something else. Right. And so I think first is, like, realize that you get to define what your version of success is like. You get to own that. And, you know, for some people, that might mean, like, stepping away and starting their own thing. Uh, you know, it, um, you know, like, that's why I went and became like, an executive coach. Like, I, like, you know, I. For a lot of people, they're like, but you are a VP of engineering. Like, why did you go step away and, like, start a business from scratch? And it's like, because I love helping other people. And I still, like, do fractional work and I get to build things still all the time. Right. And so I get the lovely balance of it, but from a, like, success trajectory, it's like. Or even when I left Apple, right? I tell people, like, I took a huge pay cut leaving Apple to go to tile. Right. And yet, uh, it was one of the best decisions in my life.

Speaker C: Yeah, clearly.

Speaker A: And. And so I think again, you know, sometimes I realize, like, okay, I can say that a little bit from a place of privilege too, because I had gotten to a certain place in my career. But the more that you can internalize, like, you get to define success, I think it really helps you, like, figure out, okay, like, I'm not going to just make decisions because of what somebody else tells me. The other biggest piece of advice is network. Start networking early. Right? Like, part of the reason I feel like I went through so much of that imposter syndrome when I was at ah, Apple was I didn't have a support system them. And so between then and now, I, like, I have so grown my network, my friends. Te, like, joke that I somehow seem to know everybody in the Valley, which is not true. But I do know a lot of people. And I have a lot of.

Speaker C: You go to dinner with them and they're like, do you know everybody in here?

Speaker A: Actually, I went. I went to a conference where they connected us with somebody from a networking perspective. And so I was like, we Were chatting and every five minutes somebody kept showing up. And he's like, and like giving me a hug and saying hi. And he's like, are you famous or something? I'm like, no, no, no. Like no, I'm not. And then the next person who shows up literally was like, oh, I, uh, like I didn't know them. And he's like, are you Josie? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, I love your LinkedIn profile. I love the stuff you post. And the guy I'm networking with is like, yeah, you are kind of famous. I'm like, only in this, like maybe this like little engineering leader.

Speaker C: That's awesome. You're a celebrity and you don't know it.

Speaker A: Um, but you know, I say that because there's so much power in opportunities that show up from building your network. Like after Apple, I literally one of the things I said to myself is I am never like going through like a real job application interview process again in my life. Like, I was like, I just made that as a decision. I'm like, I, like I, I'm done. Like, especially when I was going through the burnout, if I was leaving tech, I was like, I'm, I'm done with this. And I literally like every job I have landed since then or opportunity that has shown up has been because of my network. And yeah, I mean I had a 20 something year career where I've proved myself to be able to do that. But you know, women are, there's this great quote which is women are over mentored and under sponsored. Right.

Speaker C: So true.

Speaker A: And so not only like first it's build your network so you don't feel isolated and alone. And then the next step is find sponsors. Find people who will advocate for you because that is the key to success.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is so true. And I think network, sometimes people see that as a dirty word so I always try to reframe it for them.

Speaker B: I'm like, think about it as connecting

Speaker C: with people and building community. Right. Some of those people become your best, uh, next door neighbors and maybe somebody becomes that person that you wave to when they walk down the street. Like it's just, yeah, it's just building community is really all building.

Speaker A: It's relationship building. And for the introverts who are like, but I hate speaking up and talking about things. The trick for introverts if you're like at a um, conference or something like that is have a bunch of questions in your back pocket, pocket that you can ask people because people love to talk about themselves. So if you can actually keep asking questions that are from a place of curiosity and you build that as your skill, like you don't actually have to do nearly as much of the talking.

Speaker C: Oh, good point. That's a great piece of advice. Well, as we transition out, you've mentioned several times that you do executive coaching. Uh, can you tell our listeners what that looks like and how they can engage with you?

Speaker A: Yes. So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. Look me up on Josie Haynes and please connect. And so I do one on one coaching with women in tech leadership. Um, navigating. You know, usually it's high stakes transitions, right? A new job, a new role, like there was a reorg or, or like they ended up in like a situation where, you know, they're struggling and they're feeling like they're running on fumes and they want to be successful. I just helped somebody actually like, negotiate a severance package because she wanted to leave her company and start something else. Right. So I, I want to help, you know, like, women in tech and other technology leaders feel successful, make a real impact. And I say enjoy Monday mornings again. Right. Like, I don't want anybody, like, I mean, like I said, uh, back when I shared the Apple story, right. Like, I don't want people to ever have that feeling of, oh my gosh, I dread going to work every morning. So feel free to reach out on LinkedIn. Um, I also have a guide for women in tech around like eight areas that are really great for leaders to develop from a. Okay. I think sometimes people think like, oh, like what, what where do I need to focus on? And I think for women it's like we have a lot of double blinds and other things. So I have a guide. I'm happy to send the link that you can put it in the show notes. So that's another.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, if you could do that, I'd love to put it in the show notes for folks. Um, do you, do you have like newsletters or anything?

Speaker A: Yeah, so if you, if you sign up for the, uh, the, the guy, like that'll put you into my newsletter.

Speaker C: Oh, perfect. Well, Jesse, this has been so much fun. It's hard for me to believe that it's already over come to an end. I'm glad to celebrate this Women in Engineering day with you. So thank you so much for your light and for investing in others.

Speaker A: Uh, it's been a pleasure. I love having these conversations.

Speaker B: Well, thanks everyone for listening. I will see you in the next episode. Bye, everyone. As we wrap up today's conversation, one quote from Josie keeps echoing in my mind. She said, you get to define what your version of success is. Simple words.

Speaker C: Powerful truth.

Speaker B: Because if we're honest, many of us, including yours truly, spent years chasing definitions of success that were handed to us by someone else. A bigger title, A bigger paycheck. More responsibilities, more achievements, more recognition. But as Josie shared so openly, success, it isn't always a straight line upward. Sometimes the bravest thing we can do is just pause long enough to ask ourselves a very different question. What does success actually look like for me? And I think that question feels especially fitting on International Women in Engineering Day. Because the women shaping the future of engineering, manufacturing, technology and industry, they are not all following the same blueprint. They are creating their own blueprint. They're bringing their unique perspectives, experiences and talents to the table. And all of our industries, they are much stronger because of it. And that mission is also at the heart of Empowering Women in Industry. If you are looking for a community where women connect, learn, support one another, and grow together as leaders, I highly encourage you to explore everything Empowering Women in Industry has to offer. From membership and virtual events to conferences and networking opportunities. It is an incredible community dedicated to helping women thrive across manufacturing, engineering, construction, the skilled trades, and many, many others. If you're listening to this in real time, there's still time to join us, uh, at ah, the Empowering Women in Industry Carolinas Conference on July 9th in Greenville, South Carolina. It's a day designed to spark new ideas, build meaningful connections, and celebrate the incredible women shaping the future of industry. We'll include links in the show notes so you can learn more. If you've loved this conversation, please be sure to share it with a friend, a colleague, or someone who needs a little extra inspiration today. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave a review. It helps us keep these empowering stories coming your way. I'll leave you today with a quote from m author and leadership expert Simon Sinek. He says, and I quote, most of us, we live our lives by accident. We live it as it happens. Fulfillment comes when when we live our lives on purpose. So wherever you are in your journey, stay curious, trust your perspective and don't be afraid to divine success for yourself. Until next time, lead human and ignite your fire within.