117. How to Set Pricing For Your Course and Services

Speaker A: Creating an effective online course helps business owners to get their time back without sacrificing the results that their clients get. I'm Kristen, a former 10 year teacher with a master's degree turned six figure online course creator. After combining my teaching and business experience, what I learned is being an effective course creator is all about choosing the right techniques, mastering a few key strategies, and teaching your content effectively. Welcome to the Effective Course Creator Podcast. If you are a coach or service provider who is ready to turn your experience and expertise into an effective online course, this is the podcast for you. I'll show you my framework for creating and selling a course that will create more social proof testimonials, referrals and ultimately more sales. Let's increase your income and your impact while also getting your time back.

Speaker B: Hi Suzanne. So excited to welcome you to the podcast today. And I would love to hear a little bit about you and your story, how you got started in business, how you landed here chatting with me today for this podcast.

Speaker C: I actually got started in business a little bit by accident, so I have a degree in exercise science. Then I pursued a job as a personal trainer and I basically learned that in whatever way I was going to do that, that I had to find my own clients. And that was a real surprise to me. I never took any business courses, marketing courses, anything like that school. I never had an interest in it, but I found myself in my first job with basically a, uh, passion, a fitness director and a stack of agreement forms.

Speaker D: And um, and, and the fitness director was very supportive, but it was still just a total uphill thing for me.

Speaker C: Not all successes happen overnight, but I was able to fill, um, um, I think it was like 25 weekly sessions, which is what I wanted in about two months time, just because I had to, you know.

Speaker D: But I figured it out.

Speaker C: I think the biggest thing I found is that I used to think that business and marketing had to be pushy and manipulative and scammy. And you know, I think that was the vibe for many years. And even like, um, you know, growing up, I don't know if this happens anywhere, but I was, I was saying

Speaker D: to someone else that like, you know,

Speaker C: I've had those experiences where like the person comes to the door and like

Speaker D: my parents are annoyed and they were like, won't leave for like four hours. And so I was like, I don't

Speaker C: want to be any part of that.

Speaker D: That's gross. Um, and so, uh, but thankfully that's

Speaker C: not the only way. And I think the overall vibe has changed.

Speaker D: In large part, um, though there are

Speaker C: still, you know, pushy, spammy people. But basically I saw that it was just, I had a service, I had solutions for people and there were a bunch of people that were dying to meet some me or someone like me and have help with finding that solution. And so it was really just this win, win between two people. I kept learning more about, um, you know, email marketing and online marketing, things like that. I had a big gap where I was trying to figure myself out and just like work in whatever jobs. And so basically that led me to a full time job in the digital marketing team at ipac, which I really enjoyed. Um, I rewrote launch materials for a client, I mean, for a mastermind partner, through Jeff Walker's product launch formula. It went from there. And how I am, how I'm here today is that I have recently, I'm very selective in the trainings I take because it's too easy to get scattered and be chasing bright shiny objects. Um, so I'm very selective. But recently I started taking, um, PR and media training because I wanted the leverage of getting featured in some large media publications. Um, and then by extension, I have loved being on podcasts before.

Speaker D: And so I saw I was learning,

Speaker C: you know, just some templates and best practices for getting booked on podcasts.

Speaker B: Very cool. Yeah. You know, I think everybody's journey into entrepreneurship is winding, curving, changing, pivoting. You know, it's sometimes it's hard to go back and think, how did I end up here? How did I even land here? Right. So one of the things that a lot of people seem, when you're talking about branding and positioning, one of the things that a lot of people seem to struggle with is really articulating who they help and how they just really struggle to put that together, to put the messaging together to attract the right people. And they don't. They, they try to be basic in general so that they can kind of stay small, but they have to be more bold. Right. And put out what it is they do, how they can help, how they can serve someone. So how, what is your advice to people in trying to nail that down?

Speaker C: Absolutely. And certainly I want to acknowledge that I think stepping into that boldness and navigating that internal stuff is a process that continues, um, as long as you're in business at least is what I've experienced and what I've heard, you know, what I hear other people saying. So, um, yeah, just to acknowledge it's

Speaker D: not like you're feeling it because like

Speaker C: you're at you're a beginner, you're at some stage, like, no, like definitely develop your practices for being able to handle that. I think the idea of coming up with an ideal client usually focuses on demographics. Um, you get into a course or whatever and there's this sheet. You make them a photo and give them a name and are they married or whatever. And that is important. But I think there's an easier and also more effective way to go about it. I do think those demographics have a little bit of a place, but I think the way to look at your ideal client is go back to thinking, you know, if you're brand new. Or let me just ask you this, do you have a mix of brand new and experienced people in the group?

Speaker B: It really depends on what the offer is. Some of my offers are brand new and some of my offers are middle of the road with experience.

Speaker C: Okay, I'll speak to both. So whether you're, um, if you're brand new, I would think of the person who inspired you to start like that. What kinds of people were you? Like, wow, I really want to help someone with X, Y or Z. And you know, of course you're specially equipped to do so. Um, and if you're already in business or you've had at least a couple clients, I would think of who are your just absolute favorite clients to work with and think about what are the qualities they have? Like, don't worry about what box it fits in or whatever, just like, what do you love about them? And it's going to be unique for everybody. So some business owners, like, you know, people who are like, quick and decisive and other people want, you know, uh, more thoughtfulness in their, in their process. And um, it can really be different for everyone. But think of those people who you really enjoy working with. What are the qualities about them and what was happening in their life that brought them to work with you. So like, what are those big challenges and what were the solutions that they were looking to arrive at through your work? And with that, I would just write down as many qualities, as many specifics as you can think of and craft your ideal client. There's also this thing in online business, if you haven't already experienced this is like whatever ideal client you choose and whatever problems you're solving for them, like, you will be, at least in my experience, you will be immersing yourself in that every, every single day, like a thousand times a day. Just like constantly, um, researching, talking about, uh, you know, everything in the sphere of what you're Working with. So I actually found that I created an online brand in the fitness space. I made the website. I had professional design.

Speaker D: I did the whole thing.

Speaker C: And I was just sitting on it because I do not like the conversation that's happening in the traditional fitness space. And I knew that it's just not me. It's not my vibe. And so it was just, like, exhausting to me. And I knew that I could, you know, be the brand that did it different and all that stuff, but I was just like, I just cannot stand to sort through this conversation.

Speaker D: Like, it's so.

Speaker C: So like, you kind of have to do. You kind of have to think about that, too. And then the other thing is you really. You want to work with people who, um, they're ready and excited to work with you. They have both the time and money resources to work with you. They're a great fit for what you do. They take your product and squeeze all the juice out of it. They listen to everything you say or they consider everything you say. They take action. Um, they're really engaged in the process. They get great results. And then when that happens, they're really naturally, um, likely to just tell people about your service and be a raving fan. So just choose those people from the outset. Because sometimes, you know, it's really natural to think like, well, I want to help everybody, but not everybody is the best fit for you. And I've had this experience when you get the clients who are, it's just like a struggle the whole way through,

Speaker D: either internally for you or just, like, obviously between the two of you. And so just, like, go the easy route and.

Speaker B: Right. Yes. And I talk a lot about effective course creation and how to get your students to actually go through the course, do the content and get results. And one of those core pieces that is kind of hidden in there that a lot of people don't think about is exactly what you're saying is working with the right person. Like, just having a warm body purchase your course is not going to get them results. Like, you have to have the right person. And so I'm really big on doing the market research and, and doing it in a way of understanding how your ideal student talks and feels and what they've already tried before they find you. And all of those things too. You know, it just makes so much sense if you are really clear on that person. Because we love our topic. Generally. Course creators love the topic they're teaching about. They're incredibly passionate about it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, but they struggle with thinking what the problem is that that person is having and why they are looking for a solution. And one of the things that I think a lot of people struggle with too, is they talk more about their business and their offer instead of actually talking about what their customer or client or student needs. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how do you position that to kind of help people to be able to speak to the right person?

Speaker A: M hey, thank you so much for

Speaker B: showing up for this episode.

Speaker A: Listen, I'm on a mission to help online business owners create more effective courses because I know your goal isn't to just make millions. You're here to impact and serve people and get them results through your knowledge. So I created this super special and innovative tool and honestly, there's nothing like it out there. I want you to check out the Magic Course Map. The Magic Course Map is an innovative and magical tool that automatically generates your course design plan and also focuses on learning design as well. And a schedule to stay on track and get your course created on time. Go to she's buildingadream.com magic to check it out.

Speaker C: Definitely. I absolutely love market research, um, and I'm really passionate about it. So I, yeah, I'd love to, um, dive into this. I think, um, what happens a lot of times that I see is a couple things just so people can try to, like, avoid these roadblocks is, um, people will get into a course and oftentimes sort of this deeper stuff, the market research, the ideal client, it's like the first, second module and people will just be like, yeah, yeah, I'm just going to run the webinar.

Speaker D: Like they said, a revenue, a webinar will get me, you know, $5,000 in 30 minutes. So I'm just going to skip these first five modules and like, do the webinar. Like, I get it, I've done it, like, and it doesn't work. Um, and it's really creating that connection

Speaker C: with your ideal client. And really, like you said, speaking to the place they're in, speaking to what they're looking for most, that makes the biggest difference. So whatever the format you're leading up to has its greatest effectiveness. And I think also what happens is with the people who are into doing market research, they say, like, great, this customer focused, uh, process sounds perfect. But how do I know? I think there's a lot of pressure. Just like with people like us who teach this stuff, sometimes it'll just be like, well, what do you think they would think?

Speaker D: And it's like, I don't Know, I

Speaker C: mean, that's like, I get it. If you know your ideal client well, um, that can work. But if people don't know their ideal client that well, it can create kind of a deer in headlights thing where they're like, well, I know I'm supposed to know, but I don't know and I don't know how to find it. So, um, the thing that I love doing the most is voice of customer research. And that's basically me. Uh, I mean, I didn't make this up, but it's the, the process of skillfully looking on the Internet for the phrases that your ideal client uses to describe their hopes, dreams, fears and aspirations as it pertains to your product or service or offer. And so there are three main specific ways that I go about this, and

Speaker D: I'd love to hear if you have other places that you naturally go.

Speaker C: Um, so I have always worked in

Speaker D: sort of like a, like a lean, intentional, but sort of like growth hacker kind of whatever. Like, I, I've never worked with huge corporate budgets where it's like, oh, let's do, ah, you know, um, let's do interviews. Let's do customer interviews for like six months. No, I. So it's like, no. How can we get some insights in like two days?

Speaker C: Um, so the first place I love going is, um, Amazon reviews. Uh, I'm sure you're familiar with that. And so basically the way that works is you'll look up, typically it's a book that is related to your topic, um, and you will never plagiarize the, the book's introduction, um, or the summary or anything about that. That's, that's, um, that's the owner's property. But you go to the comments where people are commenting about the book, and that is where you find gold. And so what you're looking for is usually, like I said, their descriptions of their hopes, dreams, fears and aspirations as it pertains to your product. You can also look at things that they liked about the book and things that they didn't like about the book. And you can be intentional to include the things that they liked in your product or service. And you can potentially improve on some of the things that they didn't like as well. And so I recommend you get sort of the overall vibe of the whole conversation. Maybe pick like one, you know, one to five books, um, look through and sort of get the overall feel and then also pull out their specific words verbatim, um, and like, put them in a Google Doc or however, you know, Organize those. The second place I go for that is, um, the comment section of competitors social media posts. Again, it's never to. You're never going to copy what they're sharing or their titles or things like that. But you want to go to the comment section where people are discussing their experience with this kind of topic and you get the overall vibe and get the specific words. The other place you can go if you have an established business is, um, communication that you've had with clients. Either them, you know, emailing you about being interested in working together, um, any kind of potential or current client communications. You can also look through for things that are important to people in the same way as with the other formats. And then basically what happens is, is you go through again understanding the whole vibe. And when I'm writing copy, it's um, I basically just immerse myself in this person's experience. It helps. You know, this is where like the

Speaker D: empathic, um, you know, stereotypical, like introverts really shine.

Speaker C: Because if you're a great listener, this is going to work beautifully for you. Um, I think the people who struggle with this are the ones who are just like, I just want to talk about the product. Why does this matter? Um, and so you're going to understand the overall vibe, you're going to have their specific language and then you take that language and basically how you shape things in your brand is you find it helps to get some training in the, in the professional skill set of copywriting. But, um, you know, with that you can find copy templates and formulas for like how to just cut and paste these words into like a web page, a landing page, an email, anything like that. Um, and that is how you know it. If you are using someone, if you are reflecting your ideal client's words back to them, you have a much, you have a very high chance that you are going to connect meaningfully with them as opposed to sort of like trying to imagine what that would be. And then when you transfer it into conversion focus copy again. You know, this is not just like a letter to a friend or you know, nice words on a page, but it's the actual craft of selling through words. Um, that's how you also, you turn that into actual engaging, usable pieces in your business.

Speaker B: Yeah, those are some of the little things that I tell people too. Exactly. That the Amazon reviews, there's gold. Oh my God.

Speaker C: And it's crazy. Like once you get the hang of, um, voice of customer research, like I, um, you know, I just had a client that um, I was teaching her how to do this and some people are really into it and I, I appreciate it and I love helping them, just like understanding how this all works. And um, so, you know, she kept wanting to write what she wanted to say and then I'm like, remember, go back to the, the voice of the customer, the voc. And she's like, right, right, right.

Speaker D: And then, and then she's like, what do you think about this?

Speaker C: I'm like, how, uh, you know, how, how much of this is voc?

Speaker D: And she's like, uh, hold on. You know, so it's like, it's really

Speaker C: natural to want to say what we want to say. I do it too. I always have to be like, how much of this is voc? How much of this is my own words? And I try to, to have it be as much voc as possible, like in, in copy that is written for my ideal client. My words have a very small place in that. And uh, people say like, no, no, no, your words matter.

Speaker D: I, like, I know they matter, but in, in like a sales page, it

Speaker C: should really be written for the person who's purchasing from you. Um, um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So one of the other things that

Speaker C: I always, I forgot the point I was getting to that this client, once she really got into the VOC and understood where to find it, she's like, oh my gosh, like, it's endless. And like, yeah, it is. Like, you kind of have to, it really becomes like there's so much more than you could ever use.

Speaker D: So it's, it, there's such an abundance

Speaker C: of it, and so you really just compile, um, enough that's usable for what you need. But just, it's so cool to think that there's like such an abundance of this available.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, for sure. One of the other strategies too, that I always tell people is when you do have a customer or a client or a student buy from you, one of the very first things you can do is ask them, why, why did you purchase from me, why did you purchase this program or product? You know, in simply just even an email, just asking that. And a lot of times you can get really good information from that person of where they were when they found you. Or even saying like, what did you try before you found this solution? Those kind of things really can bring out a lot of really good words. And I love what you said about the demographic, you know, the ideal client. A lot of people will say they're married and they're 55 and they have four kids and they've got three dogs. And none of that matters other than, um, if you're talking to someone who has a full plate lifestyle, you know, like maybe they have a full plate and that makes sense to know, but other than that, like you don't need to know what color hair they have to know what problem they, they are trying to solve. And I think that that is a big component for a lot of people. When I tell people to do market research, they'll say, but I already know what's going to sell. It's not a point of is it going to sell or not. It's a point of speaking like your market wants to hear, you know, and that. I love that you said that too, because it's exactly what I teach people too. You have to. The market research is really to pull out those words of gold to see what people are saying, how they're articulating and describing it. And like you said too, you have kind of like a document and I do the same thing. I have this like big document. And when I see someone that is articulating something that I know I can solve or the problem I solve and they're articulating in a different way, I will copy and paste it right on that board. So then the next time I'm trying to come up with sales copy or anything like that, I can go there and say, uh, oh, that's right. That's the way they describe that. And I think that that's huge for a lot of people. They skip over that because like you said, oh, I already know my ideal client. But do you really know your ideal client? Do you really know the way they speak? Because that is a big proponent. And there's people that will say, you describe me to a T. And it's, well, because I've done the research, right? It's not, it's not the research of who this person is and what they look like, it's how are they feeling and what are they meeting. So I love that you said that. It just makes perfect sense. One of the other things that a lot of people struggle with though, when they do go into the idea of like market research and finding their ideal student and what does it look like? A lot of times they kind of go down this rabbit hole of seeing what other people offer, seeing their pricing, seeing their offer. How can you, like, uh, how do you advise people to kind of set their pricing based on that competitor research data? Like looking at that, how do you recommend people do that? Because a lot of people get also get hung up in pricing. And I think it's for that reason they see someone else's offering at a certain price and they think they should offer it at the same price. How do you advise people that way?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think this has two components and you know, uh, like many things, one is the outer component and one is the inner component. So, you know, money can be a really charged topic for a lot of people. And so that's the inner component. Um, let me talk about the outer. So the way that I go about this, um, is again, just like, how can I get information like today or this week to work with in a, you know, in a useful way? And so what I do is basically I will browse the Internet as if I am, I'm trying to think if I should say, like, I'm doing this for a client. Yeah, like just last night I was

Speaker D: browsing the Internet, um, for a client

Speaker C: who offers lawn care services and I was looking around for pricing in their area and what kind, what different ideal clients, um, you know, why people would pay for the higher tier of service. And that is one thing that I always recommend people lean towards. Um, I believe Jeff has said, you know, either be like the middle of the road or like a little bit higher than the middle of the road or you can be the luxury option, but you really don't want to be competing on price because it's really just like a race to the bottom.

Speaker D: Um, and unless you're going to do

Speaker C: a huge volume like Walmart, um, or Amazon, it's a really tough business model. So with that said, when I'm looking around for competitor research, basically I'm just looking around for what an ideal client might see when they're looking for solutions. And that might be people in your industry, it might be people adjacent to your industry, it might be people completely different to your industry. It might be friends and family. Um, a lot of times you have to position your business against getting like, well meaning advice from friends and family. That's not that effective in certain cases.

Speaker D: Um, and you can also look at

Speaker C: things like even if you offer, you know, high end coaching or whatever, look at options like books or, you know, someone else's live event. Just all these different places that people might be looking for a solution and you basically just want to look at what can you find in terms of the other person's like pros and cons, um, you know, what the main gist of their messages, like what their overall vibe is, like, are they super luxury Are they um, down to earth? Are they both? Are they just like what's the. Get all these details about them and then sort of, excuse me, the different um, offerings they have and how they're priced and um, what would a person get out of each of those offerings? Me.

Speaker D: And you would call that the, the transformation.

Speaker C: Um, and so basically you can just make a spreadsheet and I think even if you can find like 10 or 15, it gives you a good sense of the marketplace and what people may be finding as they're also considering you. And basically then when you can look at all of that objectively and I personally believe that there's more than enough space for everybody, but you have a clear sense of what, what makes you unique. And this can be a little tricky. This is a lot easier to see from an objective standpoint.

Speaker D: This is a lot easier for me

Speaker C: to see for someone else's brand. But uh, it's basically like when you look at the voice of customer research and what people are really wanting and matching it up with what's in the marketplace and if you can meet your ideal clients needs in like a unique way or a different way or um, a better way, usually different things are better for different people, but you just want to. And, and even it can even just be the vibe of your brand. Like um, I was talking with an accountant or something or uh, I forget who said this but they were like the first accountant to brand themselves as like punk rock is going to.

Speaker D: Just like they're going to, they're going to take the whole industry and they're going to have you know, the, like there's this whole like flock of people coming to them. And so it, yeah, it's just like

Speaker C: what can um, what can make you a little different? So that's. And then with the pricing you can sort of see all the pricing in the marketplace. You can also just Google like what's the average range for such and such. Match it all up and just that allows you to make an objective decision on where you would like to place yourself in the marketplace. And then it does come back to the, the, the thing on pricing. You know, different people see, have different thoughts about money. Sometimes people want to just go right out of the gate with the highest price offer. Sometimes people want to ramp up. Some people need to do some internal money work to even see what they want to do. Um, it's all perfect. And um.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And there's so much mindset around pricing. Kind of like you were saying, there's so much mindset around it. Because if you don't feel confident pricing yourself at a certain. And this is just something from my own experience, if you don't feel confident with your price, it's not going to feel good at all to sell it. It's not going to feel good when someone has an objection to purchasing from you. It's not going to feel good. But it's also on the flip side, not going to feel good if you're underpricing because then you feel like what you're doing is not really worth your time and effort.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think that so many people struggle with that. And when it comes to course creators, which is the vast majority of my audience, the, the unique part about being a course creator is that you can create it once and keep selling it. So the amount of time that you take to create it, it's a lot of time. It takes a lot of time to create an effective course. However, once you create it, you can continue to sell it and then your time comes into serving, making it better, improving it, and those kind of things. And one of the things I always tell people is look at the amount of time you're spending because if that doesn't match up to your pricing, then you're going to feel almost naturally as a human, you're going to feel almost resentful towards doing the work. There's been times where I've done kind of like a calculation with a client and it will come down to them making like $3 an, you know, because they are, they're such a giving, serving person. They want to give and serve. However, there comes a point where you also have to be profitable because you have to survive. That's why you are an in business that uh, it's your job so you have to be able to make money too. And I think that that's such a huge key piece for so many people is that mindset piece with the whole pricing idea. And there's no magic formula. There's not everyone, everyone wants me to give them a magic formula all the time. I get that question all the time. There's really not, there's so many variables like you said, you know, looking at other people and.

Speaker C: Right. And that's what's tough. And I think that's a really important mindset piece for business in general because, um, this is a space where, um, you're constantly navigating the unknown and there really, there really are no guarantees. Like if you have a job, um, things can ebb, uh, and flow Things can get chaotic, things can get whatever, but, like, you're still going to get paid. Like, your financial life is still going to continue. But in business, like some of the best people in the business, they put out offers, they create them, like, meticulously. They do the research and it just, it doesn't perform.

Speaker D: And certainly the more someone is experienced

Speaker C: in this work, it increases the chances of the offer performing. Um, but it is always like a. Create a hypothesis of, like, what. What offer do you think? You know, what offer, what page, whatever do you think will perform? Well, test, iterate and repeat. Jeff Walker's been in this, what, 20 years. He's. I know he is. He's still test, iterate, repeat. He's learning from the last launch. He's reviewing it, he's iterating, repeat. And so I think it's just. I think it's an important mindset to have overall, because sometimes, sometimes people get it and sometimes people come to me and they're like, well, what can you do for me? Like, what results can you guarantee for me?

Speaker D: Like, I don't think, I don't think we're a good fit because none of this stuff works like that. You know, it's like, I don't, I don't have, like, leads stored up in my closet or like, right. The magical words for your client, like, right in my brain or, you know,

Speaker C: I think that happened.

Speaker D: I mean, there are places. We're all human. There are places in my life where I'm like, can you just be like a magical, you know, in, you know, in whatever aspect of life. But, um, yeah.

Speaker C: So I think it's just, it's also important to keep that in mind. And it's so important to have a strong hypothesis because again, hypothesis meaning, like, what are we putting together? How are we putting it together and why?

Speaker D: Um, and for who?

Speaker C: Because it takes a lot of work to create. So, like, you don't want to create that stuff on guessing. It's just. It's so exhausting and it's so expensive.

Speaker D: So it's. The research helps you, like, get it right sooner.

Speaker B: Yes. And like you said, there is no guarantees, you know, And I think some of that is from the messaging online where it's like you said, make $5,000 in five minutes, you know.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: There's so much of that that's being thrown at people with social media that it makes people think that we should have a guarantee. You know, I just ran into this actually yesterday with someone who wanted to know what is my guarantee? And I can't. I can't guarantee really much of anything other than that if you do the work, you will get results, but if you're not doing the work, you can't get results. You know, like the person said, well, when can you guarantee that I'll make my money back? But she'd only gone through 50% of module one. Yeah, well, my effort has. Your effort has to match my effort. And if it doesn't, I can't. I can't give you a guarantee. Unfortunately, you know, there is no magic number. And I think when it comes to selling, making money or things like that, a lot of people see the shiny object and they think, oh, I can get rich by doing this, so I'm going to buy this course. And then they don't actually even do the work because, uh, it's work, it takes effort. And I think that, you know, it's so easy to fall into that whole piece too. And it's just. Yeah, this is kind of on my

Speaker C: mind right now, but it's on my mind too. And I, I think. I think really in large part it is because of all the, the sensational headlines and the titles on social media, because.

Speaker D: And

Speaker C: I, I get the disconnect because, like, of course we put our best metrics forward. Of course we put the, the cool, you know, the, the coolest thing that could happen forward. But it's like the, the thing that sort of doesn't make it into the sales copy.

Speaker D: I don't know, maybe it should, maybe it shouldn't. But it's like, um.

Speaker C: Someone recently posted on, on LinkedIn, she's like, yes, I made, you know, 5,000, whatever in 30 minutes. Um, but here's what also led up to that. Uh, four years of posting daily on

Speaker D: LinkedIn each day, spent eight hours a day, literally, no joke.

Speaker C: This woman did this, um, you know, commenting on other people's comments because that's what the algorithm responds to.

Speaker D: Crafting offers, scrapping them, learning, realizing I did it wrong. Like, you know, it's like. And so it's like.

Speaker C: But, you know, the sales page has,

Speaker D: like, for, like, follow your dreams, become an entrepreneur. It's like the person, like, on the beach with their laptop. Nobody's at the beach with their laptop. Nobody's getting sand in their laptop.

Speaker C: Like, yes, yes, a lot of us work remotely. Yes, that's wonderful. There is a lot of flexibility. You know, I can go put a squash in the oven in the middle of the day or whatever.

Speaker D: Like, um, there are a lot of

Speaker C: benefits, but it's also a lot of work. It's like working with a client who's halfway across the world who is like meticulous and tests and puts things together and sort of tests their technology beforehand. They're putting, we make all this stuff. They're putting out the webinar for their launch and the audio doesn't record, so

Speaker D: then the audio doesn't pick up. And so it's like my two in the morning, which is fine because I'm a night owl, but just conceptually like they're like, what do you think we should do? You know, like, and you know, we're like okay, okay, like what's the best, what's the best thing here?

Speaker C: Because they're like we could rerecord but then the messages are going out and should we.

Speaker D: So it's like, um, yeah.

Speaker B: There's so many things behind the scenes that people don't see and I think.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Newer business owners don't understand that. And when they uh, spend in business for a while, like those kind of things are what discourage me. Like I just start to think like, wait, so you told me you could make this amount of money but you forgot to tell me that you spent that exact amount of money in advertising? So did you really make money?

Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it's just, it's really tricky. I actually one of the reasons I, I wanted a full time job in digital marketing is because I was doing this stuff and I was like, man, is it just me or is this uh, is this as messy on the back end for every company? Like do other people just have this running smoother? Like have they figured this out? Or like is it really just kind of this messy organized chaos everywhere? And like from everything I've seen, let me tell you, it's messy organized chaos everywhere. And I'm not like, be as organized as you can and be as intentional as you can and plan things out. And still the back end of like planning a course, running a course, keeping up with other stuff, it's messy. So you know, it's just, I think it's important to know that it's, it's just, it's just a natural part of the process. And the back end really does look different than sort of like the polished online presence that people put forward. I think a lot of that stuff is genuine. I, I think it really is that person and really is their metrics. It really like it is authentic. But the back end running of the business is just a lot messier than that.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like when we first got on Live. I told you I had like 100 nerf bullets in front of my desk

Speaker C: and I told you that I had piles of paper because I'm a little bit, I love taking paper notes and I'm just like a little bit of a mad scientist where like especially,

Speaker D: well,

Speaker C: almost anything if I'm stuck, like there's like papers and if I'm creating, I'm

Speaker D: just like creating and like letting other stuff like pile up because I live by myself and it's like if I'm not bothered, nobody's bothered. And so it's like perfect. Yeah, we're all human. Like. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think social media just has damaged so much of that for so many people. They just see this perfect life and, and that's one of the reasons why I even struggle to show up on social media because I'm not that person. I don't want to like, I'm a real down to earth person and it's really hard for me. I'm also a perfectionist. So I have like a double edged sword and it's like, uh, I don't want to show up because I'm a perfectionist. I don't want to let people in, but yet I also want to be real and authentic. So it's like this clashing of two worlds always that I have to try to sort through all the time because it's, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. Well, this has been so fun to chat with you and it sounds like we have a lot of the same thoughts and experiences and interests. So it's been really fun. Can you tell the audience where they can find out information about you, the services you offer?

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. So, uh, in my LinkedIn about section I have kind of a, uh, I

Speaker D: want to say Cliff Notes, but not everyone knows what like a, a boiled down summary of um, different things that make me unique.

Speaker C: Um, that's it. My, you know, LinkedIn, Suzanne Riley and then uh, my more entrepreneurial website, that's Suzanne Riley dot com. And people can, uh, there's a freebie there to join my email list. Uh, people can learn how to create really engaging content topics for the year in like, I don't know, 90 minutes or less. But to not be sensational, it's like you can do it in a relatively short amount of time. Just like we talked about doing voice of customer research or competitor research. So however that naturally, however long that

Speaker D: naturally takes you, but it's sort of

Speaker C: that short and condensed process.

Speaker B: So very cool. We will link that up in the show notes. Awesome.

Speaker C: Um.