A Conversation with Jeremy Shorr: The Future of Education is Student-Powered: AI, Innovation & the Courage to Disrupt

Speaker A: Foreign. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to season 10. Oh, my God. Every time I say it, I'm just, like, amazed. Season 10, you know, the title this season is legacy and Progress. Wait, I forgot to tell you who I was. I'm sorry. My name is Bonita G. I'm the education concierge, and I'm the host here. But you knew that already. Ladies and gentlemen, M. Boys and girls, you know what? You should have something to drink because you're not worried about what's in your cup. That's your business. Okay? You need to have something to write with. If you're like me and I still take regular hand notes and always, uh, pink these up. But if you are, you know, on tech side, make sure you have your iPad or your phone to take these notes. We are dropping gems and nuggets and rules and regulations and all of the things that you need to change and shift today's guest. So once again, you know how you have those people that are like, you put a list down of who you want on your podcast, and then you have a star beside them, and it's like Michelle Obama. I don't know, the dude from Amistad that I've had a pressure on since, like, fourth grade. Those are the people that I'm talking about. This person is one of those people. Y' all know I love ed tech, and I feel like I'm one of those seasoned teachers, the ones that are, like, 40 and over, but we still love technology. And so I'm constantly learning and I'm constantly growing. And someone connected me with him. I don't even think they knew he was on my list. Cause I don't really tell people who's on my list. And then I was like, oh, my God. Immediately sent them the link and was like, bring him on, please. This is what I need to do. I want you to be ready. He's going to change your mind. He's going to make you rethink the things that we've been thinking. We are definitely going to unlearn some of the foolishness that we have learned being in traditional education settings. But more importantly, we're going to open our minds to understanding how education and technology blend, how they come together and how they're going to change and move us into the 22nd century. That's where we're going. So, uh, you know what to do. I'm going to bring him in. He's going to introduce himself, and when he comes in, what is he? He's now family. Let's go. Whoa. Where'd you come from today?

Speaker B: I'm doing great, Punita. How about yourself?

Speaker A: I am great. So, uh, Jeremy, welcome to the TEC family. When we sit over here, we disrupt. We dismantle all things foolishness about education, but then we talk about how we rebuild it and what are we doing. And this season, we're talking about legacy and progress. So, uh, because you're our guest, we like to feed them. So in our family, you come in, you leave your shoes at the front door, because we are from rural Virginia, and that red dirt clay goes all over the house. You're going to walk down the hall, you're going to go to our guest bathroom because you got to wash your hands before you eat, and you can't wash your hands in the kitchen sink because you're not cooking. Wash your hands in our bathroom. My mom gave me these decorative towels. They are not for you to dry your hands on. There are paper towels in the bathroom for that. Come on back. And the first question we always ask our guests is this. Would you like a regular plate or do you need a section plate?

Speaker B: There's just a lot of rules at your house already. Uh, you're like, uh, I've got. I've got my pencil in my, like, notes. I'm, like, writing down all these rules because I don't want to mess them up. I like a regular plate. I don't like a section plate because, you know, I feel very confident that I can keep my food separated. But sometimes I want to mix them up together, and if those sections are there, I can't do it.

Speaker A: And I love that because. So, uh, we are a Southern black household, and yet there are some rules. And I. Until you said, I was like, that

Speaker B: rules. We have guest rules, but they're, like, very soft. Ours are like. People, uh, are like, um, you know, do you want us to take your shoes off? And I say, absolutely. But if you really don't want to, that's fine, too. Like, whatever.

Speaker A: I'll.

Speaker B: I'll clean up later. Just, uh, I just want people to be comfortable.

Speaker A: Just want people to be comfortable. No, you. You came from outside.

Speaker B: You know what the problem with, uh, this is the thing. We. I suppose we probably should talk about actual education here in a second. But do you know my counter is always. And I don't know about. About your kids or yourself, but we're a no shoes household in general. But also, we're a very barefoot household. So, like me, my wife, my kids, we're always outside barefoot. So what's the difference? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So I can say, growing up, I was the only child like that. And so my mom was gonna have some slippers. My dad's probably gonna throw on, like, his flip flops. My. My sister, my brother, they all gonna swing their slides. And my mom would constantly be like, bonita. And I was a. I was a ballet dancer, so I was a ballerina outside, no shoes on. I danced with no shoes on. And then we would put on. I would put on my slippers. And so I was the only child like that coming back into the house. My mom would be like, you need to go take a shower. She was like, But I was. It was. That's why she kept fussing at me. She's like, because now you're. Now you running your bare feet from outside inside the house. And I was like, you know what you need?

Speaker B: I, um. My, uh. My first, like, real job in. In high school and college was I worked in the entertainment department at SeaWorld. And if you went in the back areas, you know, where the animals were, like, behind, like backstage at the sea lion and otter show or backstage at the Shamu show, there were always these, like, little trays, these. These shallow trays of water in some kind of solution, and then like, uh, like a mat of some kind of. So when you walk in the back area, first you tap your shoes into that water, and then you can continue on. It kills everything. Maybe. Maybe I just need that for feet. Just, uh, a quick little foot bath. To sit there. To sit there. What are you talking about?

Speaker A: Okay. Because it's a twilight. I love this because one thing that people forget is that we have to learn how to communicate and understand each other. And so I love this different point of view. Like, we need to. We go outside barefoot, too, and then we come back in the house, and guess what? We're still alive and everyone's happy. And it is. Okay. And it is. And so the last part of you coming in, we are going to give you a nice, tall glass of sweet iced tea. Now, we don't do unsweetened iced tea, because that's a blasphemy. But if you want water, there it is. If you want something else, you just let us know. Because sometimes we have people who have, um, you know, they different taste. And, you know, this is Southern sweet tea. It is. Uh, you're probably gonna need to water it down anyway. It's gonna be needed. You need to water it down.

Speaker B: I'm really a tea. Black coffee or a cocktail. Like, those are those are my three liquids.

Speaker A: So in the morning you'll have the black coffee. Cause that's how my dad drinks it. And later on, um, the drinks will flow around the fish fry. So you're good. So you are here. So can you please tell us who you are and what you do to be a legacy in progress right now?

Speaker B: Sure. I don't know what the hell I do, but I'll tell you a little bit of who I am.

Speaker A: Hi.

Speaker B: Uh, my name is Jeremy. Hi, nice to meet you. Um, I live in northeastern Ohio and have my whole life. I was in public education for 16 years. Um, for the last nine years I've been working in the STEM and education space, uh, more on the consulting side and speaking and blah, blah, blah, all that side, primarily for an organization called ties, the Teaching Institute for Excellence in STEM and the International STEM Ecosystems Initiative, uh, which is operated by ties. But I also do work for, oh, the Congressional App Challenge and the Mark Cuban foundation and National STEM Festival, Granny Mahara Steam foundation, blah. Ah, blah, blah. And so, you know, wherever the, wherever the work is interesting and impactful, that's always my first filter. Is it going to be fun? For me, that maybe shouldn't be number one, but it is. And number two is can we actually make some kind of impact and change on primarily, uh, young people and outcomes in this country or globally?

Speaker A: So let's go back. I love that and I love the book. I told somebody the other day, said, at a certain age, I don't want to do it. I'm not going to do it. I'm just the end.

Speaker B: Not that we don't just have to pay the mortgage. Sometimes we just have to pay the mortgage and we do the thing. But in general, and as long as it's, you know, still, still moral and has some integrity, we just do the thing, even if it's boring. But when we can, if it's going to be awesome, if it's going to be fun, if I'm going to meet new people, that's. That's, uh, that's the big carrot for me.

Speaker A: I love that. So you were in education in the traditional sense. What made you transition out and start a different role in a. With an organization and not necessarily with a. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, this is something I don't talk about a lot, but I will, uh, sort of twofold. So first of all, in the tail end of my career in a school, I was lucky enough to, um, be allowed to design an initiative with one of my colleagues and friends. Uh, incredible. One of the Best two principals I've ever seen in my life. Her name was Megan Kinsey. She since has been poached by, by Apple. So she's over at Apple now. Um, and we were, we, you know, were sort of given carte blanche to kind of redesign her school however we wanted. And we got to fly all over the country and meet with, uh, other interesting innovators in the education space. And we were lucky enough to uh, be fairly successful and get some awards and recognition and a lot of visits from, you know, from newspapers, uh, and magazines and also, uh, school districts from uh, at that time all 50 states and something like 17 countries, which is really, really amazing and ah, a testament to the educators in that building because, you know, we had some crazy ideas, but they're the ones that actually made it work with, with these kids. Um, and as happens in those sort of scenarios, you know, people start getting poached because when, you know, when the, when the press comes, people. That's how Megan left. I fought it for a little while, um, and then I was introduced to Jan Morrison at ties and, and that happened there. And if I'm just being perfectly frank, uh, at the same time we were starting to see the, the kind of, uh, early ripplings of the things and the obstacles that are happening in public education right now. Um, you know, with societal and political, um, you know, barriers and boundaries. We're starting to see those things. So I was starting to get stressed out about kind of what that was turning into. This new opportunity came and, and you know, I think that those are the crummy reasons. And then the good reason, I suppose, is that as we were, you know, doing all this touring and having all these folks into our district and talking to them, I was sort of realizing that I was really lucky in my. That I was allowed to redesign and rethink what instruction looked like in building and that not every school district has that luxury. And therefore a whole lot of students don't have the opportunity to design, create and solve problems and really think about futures in a new way. And I thought that I might be able to make a, uh, kind of a broader impact, not a deeper impact, but a broader impact, uh, by moving into this space. And so I did. I. You know, again, I almost hate saying this. It would be hard at this point to go back. There are things I miss I missed. Uh, relationships with kids in classes. I don't have that anymore. I have relationships with teachers still, but it's not as deep as being in a building or in a district. With the same teacher for years. It's episodic. And I miss those two things a lot. I miss. We built a research and development classroom at that district where we had elementary school teachers and their kids come in for a quarter and experiment with new teaching modalities and new technologies with uh, you know, in this, this massive room that had access to everything. And it also had, you know, zoned microphones and one way mirrors and an observation room so we could test out these things. I miss that. And I missed some of the people and I missed nothing else. All of the other things I just, I don't miss, I don't miss all the drama and politics and everything else.

Speaker A: But that's honest. Like is it. I was with a group of former former traditional public school educators. So some were principals, some were assistant principals. We all, uh, transitioned out. And that was, what you said is exactly the same thing. We all were like, we like, when people ask us what we miss, we miss the relationship with our colleagues, um, and we miss the relationship with our students and our parents. And that's a testament to just knowing and understanding who we are underneath all of the things. But we are also grateful to have transitioned out to still be a part of education and like you are shaping and molding and modeling and preparing the way and setting things up so that we can move, move it along. So going into that part, one of the questions we always ask are, what are you actively disrupting or redesigning in the education space?

Speaker B: I think I have a slightly different take on, um, the question and the slightly different is that I think that people in my role, um, and I might offend people when I say this, who kind of call themselves disruptors need to like, take a deep breath because, you know, or futurists or whatever else, like, like calm down, calm, calm yourself down for just a quick second. Because we are not the ones who can disrupt the only people who can. And you know, I, I, I'm sure we'll, we'll end up in the AI space. And as part of this conversation later, um, um, I, I'm a firm believer that the only people in existence that can save us from the potential negative future that AI could bring are educators. Formal and informal. Are educators. The only people who can disrupt are the people who are actually doing all of the hard work I'm in the position to do is, number one, convince administrators to allow them to do that work, to convince administrators. You know, when I work with the district, one of the very first things that I say and my boss over at Ties always gets mad at me for this. One of the very first things I say to the superintendent when they hire me is, you should be aware before we get started that there is nothing I'm gonna tell you that somebody who's already on your staff couldn't tell you for free. Like, they're. They're there. They know you don't need me. But, you know, you can't be a prophet in your own land and all of that stuff. So sometimes people need that outside person. So I'd call myself more of, like, an agitator than, uh, a disruptor. I think that our job is to lay the groundwork to allow educators to make the changes that they overwhelmingly already know are best for our kids.

Speaker A: I got it. So, um, there it is, y'. All. Some of y' all are disruptors. Well, you think you are, but you're really an agitator. Maybe I'm an agitator. I'll, uh, unpack that later on tonight when I'm processing my day and writing in my journal. Am I an agitator? If you see it on LinkedIn, don't be mad.

Speaker B: Oh, no, just tag me so I can repost it.

Speaker A: That's all. 100%. I'm gonna be like. So in my conversation with Jeremy, uh, he said, and I quote, because that's. That is interesting that you said that. I'm. I am with your boss. Don't tell people that they can get it for free somewhere else. Justin.

Speaker B: Get it for free. I want everything to be free. Bonita, this goes back to something that we were talking about, um, like, behind the curtain. You know, we talk first, and then Benita boots me out and pretends like I just joined, but it's all a lie. We hung out for, like, 10 minutes first. And one of the things that we were talking about in that. In that sort of pre. Time was this idea. You know, I was talking to my kids at the time, but with adults, too, that we have to stop saying that we're preparing students for the future and start saying, in my opinion, that we're trying to prepare students to change the future. Well, it's the same thing with teachers. Any educational professional development that's compliant should be, you know, eliminated. If it legally can be. If it can't be legally eliminated, you know, like, bloodborne pathogen training, which is so silly. Like. Like, my wife's a middle school teacher. Like, she's going to what, like, lick the blood or whatever? Like, I don't know why every year she has to Click through these dumb videos or whatever. But she does. The state mandates it, whatever. So she does. So we need to make that as easy as possible. And any professional development, any professional development should be. How are we equipping educators with the tools and the confidence to make changes in their classrooms, with themselves and in their communities. And if it's not accomplishing that, then just give them more work time, which is what they actually need and want anyway.

Speaker A: Thank you. And you said something important. So we're going to pull from that. It is courage. It is courage. I remember, um, I was coaching or mentoring a group of teachers who were identified as teacher leaders. So, you know, they don't want to be principals, but you know, who runs the school. Like, if you want something done as the principal, these are the teachers you pull in so they can get buy in from the other teachers for sure. And I was teaching and I was telling him, and the young lady, she was like, you know, my principal, I'm scared to tell him no. And she's like, how did you do that? And I was like, this, no, she's not. But she was like, benita, I was like. I said, but this is what I learned early. I had a great principal. I'm like, you have had, I've had all great principles except for two. And one of my great principals in dc, he said to me, he said, you can come to me with pushback, but I need some numbers and I need you to have a plan.

Speaker B: Yeah. Which is totally fair.

Speaker A: There it is. And then she's like, for real? I said, so every time I would come and say, look, they can do that in them Georgetown schools, but we over here, like over here in this part of dc, understanding who our students are and understanding where we are and trying to pull, you know, pull and push them and expose them to who they really are, the greatness that they have. We need to use this program. And I've already called the people and they're going to let us do it for free for the first nine weeks. And da, da, da, da. And I was like. And then that's where the teacher leader part comes in.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: The courage. And I'm glad you said that.

Speaker B: Uh, and I think that the other part that's really important to remember with that is I think we in education, well, I, I would argue probably all fields, but. But I only know education. We sort of conflate the idea of bravery and lack of fear, and that's, that's ludicrous. We're always being told to not be Afraid. Don't be afraid. You don't be afraid of his. Don't be afraid. But do you think that Rudy wasn't afraid when he walked out onto that football field? Do you think that Michael Jordan wasn't afraid when he had to play basketball against aliens? Do you think Jessie Spano wasn't afraid when she was addicted to caffeine pills? Of course they were afraid. Of course they were afraid. This isn't about not being afraid. It's about being brave. And being brave means doing the hard thing, even when we are afraid. Because it's what's best. Best for the world. It's what's best for. For our students. And that's, you know, that. That's, I think, kind of the, uh, that thesis there is stop saying don't be afraid. It's scary. Again, AI is, I think, the perfect example. I can't tell you how often I work with the school district and teachers about AI and at some point they're like, isn't this stuff terrifying?

Speaker A: And I'm like, yes, it's terrifying.

Speaker B: It could go really. It already has gone really poorly.

Speaker A: It.

Speaker B: It already has gone bad, and it could only get worse. I mean, there's a lot of potential for a lot of negativity. And they're always like, you know, we've had all these other people in, and they're always like, don't be afraid of AI. It's not that bad. That's ridiculous. We have to honor the fears so that we can push through them and get the resources and the supports we need to do the right thing.

Speaker A: I always say, I don't want people to be scared. I, uh, don't want you to put your head in the sand as if it doesn't exist. So in order for us to understand it, you have to use it. And you have to understand, like you said, everything has two sats, a negative and a positive. And so we have to understand where we are. And then how do we combat that? Like, we argue all the time about phone bans in school. And I go. And they're like, benita. And I'm like. And then my best friend, she's like, what do you think? And I was like, I don't like it. And she said, for real? And I was like, I don't. And the reason I don't like it is because at, uh, first of all, I was in middle school for 20 years, and we are looking at releasing students to high school and those students being released into adulthood. And when I walk into my Meeting. Everybody in my office walks in with their phone, their laptop, normally something to write with. And we have to learn to manage and navigate with our phone and our, uh, laptop. And sometimes you'll see people on their phone because we can pull it up quicker. Now we have decided, as a. As a culture at our company, to come in with no laptops, and our phones are actually kind of flipped over, like, you have it for emergencies, because we're still running a business for the staff meeting. Just because it's two hours. The world doesn't stop because of staff meeting. But how do we. How do we teach that if their phones are locked up? And so that is what my pushback is. Uh, and that's a whole nother conversation.

Speaker B: You know, it goes back to what you said earlier about, you know, you had a boss who said, you can complain as long as you have a solution. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. You know, we can't just say, kids these days are always on their phone. I mean, we can, but instead, maybe kids these days are always on their phone. Here's how I think we can provide the skills and also the level of understanding that we also look at our damn phones 40 times a day, and then we judge them for doing the same thing. Like, again, take a breath, everyone, like, stop, you know, casting aspersions or whatever.

Speaker A: I had. I had my students this summer laughing. I did a summer program, and I had gone into our office, and then I had walked over to the program, and I'm. We're working. We're going. And I looked up, and I was like, where's my phone? And so, like, we were looking, and I checked my pockets, and then I said, before I left the office, it's on. It's on our secretary's desk. Like, the executive. It's on the first desk, executive assistant's desk. Because I. I stopped and I went to go grab a water, and then I was running back out, and sure enough, my colleagues saw my phone, put it in her bag, and she brought it on over. And one of the girls, she said, how could you live without your phone? I was like, girl, I'm old enough to remember when we didn't have them. Like, it's not like, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm not. I'm not trying to navigate the streets of Memphis and find the. Find, uh, a place to eat. I'm not trying to go to a new place. I was walking, knew where I was going. Um, I had my laptop. So if somebody was trying to email me, I could get it. And so it was one of those things I was trying to. She was just shocked. She was like, I can't believe. And it was like an hour. Like, I was. We were working, and she was like, I can't believe, you know, you're not worried about your phone. I was like, I'm, um. It's. Nobody stole it. I'm not worried about that. I said, yeah, it'll show up. And so, sure enough, they were like, girl, we got your phone. And the kids started laughing, and they were like. They were just mesmerizing. They were like, you had your. You didn't have your phone for an hour. And I was like, true. And so I'm glad you said that. Well, we need to just take a breath and navigate. How do we help them navigate? Because that's what's important. I love that. Okay, y', all, sorry, but it still deals with education, so be quiet and don't fast forward through this. I know, y'. All, we're going to talk about this next part, which is the part I'm excited about, because it talks about obstacles and ownership, and this is the part where we talked about AI. So I want you to name one challenge you faced and how you push through it with creativity, care, or courage.

Speaker B: So you mentioned AI and you mentioned obstacles. This is a thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately that. That I'm really excited. You know, there's. There's, um. There's a lot to be scared about with these technologies to the level that a, uh, thing that. That I talk about a lot is that I'm outside of Cleveland, Ohio. The Cleveland Clinic in. In Ohio has the first quantum computer. Not on a government or IBM campus and, like the Northern Hemisphere or something. It's one of the first, you know, in the world outside of a government or IBM campus. Um, and its role is to sort of revolutionize medicine. And they're doing some really, really incredible things. They're doing things that would have saved pain, suffering, and death from people who are important to me using AI. Okay, so really, really powerful things. And even with that and a thousand other examples, I could give of the ways that AI is revolutionizing things in positive ways, mostly in medicine, that, uh, the medicine impacts are massive. But I could list all these different things. And even with that, if a genie came up to me and said, you know, Jeremy, if I snap my fingers, we'll go back to the way AI was like, four years ago. You know, Netflix recommendations Autocomplete, whatever. It'll freeze there and never advance beyond that. Would you say yes? And I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, I'm about 85% sure that I would say yes. Because I think the potential for negativity and harm is outsized and massive. Uh, that's the potential. But there's no genie.

Speaker A: There's no genie.

Speaker B: The governments of the world, in my opinion, don't really have the ability to hold back, rattle or regulate AI technologies. It's too distributed. The corporations who are building these models, with a couple of exceptions, don't really have the financial incentive or the shareholder incentive to throttle or control these innovations. The only people in my opinion who have the ability to. We're in a fork right now. We can't see that we're in a fork. But in 20 years the world's gonna be very different because of AI AH technologies either very different bad or very different good. And we're in that fork right at this moment. And I truly believe that the only population of people who can steer us towards the positive side of that fork are educators, formal, informal, K12, higher ed girl Scout leaders in all sort of scenarios, the adults who work with young people and can teach them how to use tools responsibly with morality and to uh, solve problems. Which leads to the thing that is most exciting to me and to your question, which is, you know, there's been this another thing I hate to say out loud because I have friends who work in this space who might be offended, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Um, I think that kind uh, of the whole concept of hackathons and solve a thons has been sort of a false promise for most of its existence. When we're talking about kids or uh, there are hackathons, you know, there are hackathons for cities where they have experienced programmers come in and does. That's a different scenario. Great. When we're talking about pulling a whole bunch of kids to solve problems, either of those kids come in with the coding or digital fabrication or whatever you know, style of hackathon Solvathon. It is skills and they don't really need it a very small percentage or they come in without those skills and they can't learn those skills in a day and then also apply those learned skills to solve a problem. So they're, they're kind of fake kind of. Until now. Because now and for the past, you know, six months I can and have. And others that you know too. I think who introduced us is Yates, is that who introduced us? I think it was Yates.

Speaker A: Mike. Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, Mike disease too. And I know some other folks too. I can now take, for the first time in my career, I can take 250 kids who not only have no AI or CS background at all, but who don't want to be there. Forced kid, not self selected students. 250 kids are forced to be there and have none of the skills and they can leave in two or three hours with a minimally viable product that solves a problem that's important to them. And I've seen them do it over and over and over again. I was in San Francisco in the Mission with the Congressional App Challenge like three weeks ago and I watched a young woman come in and as we were talking about problems and you know, doing kind of some initial exercises, she's talking about how she grew up with a lot of food insecurity. And so now she's got this, this really deep hatred of food waste and this very big concern about food insecurity. And she walked out three hours later with a, a tool that, that worked, that restaurants in the uh, in the Mission could go in and say, hey, it's near the end of the day and we're going to be throwing away this, this food. And parents and shelter operators and you know, organizers and uh, whoever can also go in and they can say, I've got seven, four of them are kosher, six of them are halal, 11 have a gluten allergy and it would match them with the food that's being thrown away that matches those requirements so that they could go to these restaurants, eliminate the food waste and feed right now. Is it a functioning app in the App Store? No, not yet. She's got to use something like MIT App Inventor or whatever to actually make it a freestanding application. But it worked. We tested, it worked. I watched. Um, uh, and I think this is another really important facet to this is, you know, we're talking, when we're talking about overcoming obstacles, a thing that we do that's sort of crummy as adults is that we have a tendency to judge the problems and say that's an important problem and that's not an important problem. But to the student, the not important problem is often really, really important. And like it's none of my business if it's important to me, if it's important to them. So in the same session, uh, actually this might have been with Mike, I saw two different, you know, plenty different things built but, but two different one was, uh, you know, these students who are really into reading and they're really into vinyl, like playing, you know, on a turntable. Yeah. And so they, you know, they already had like a spreadsheet of all the vinyl. They'd collect it, you know, 300 albums or whatever. And they wanted a tool where they could say, hey, I'm reading the first book in the Hunger Games series. And I'm on chapter seven. And I feel like pop music. Give me an album that matches the tone and the mood of that chapter from my collection. And they built that tool in a lot of people's eyes. It's a small problem, but it's important to them.

Speaker A: In the session.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's cool. In the same session, there was a. A team led by a girl who, um, had two working parents. And her brother broke his arm so bad, you know, that the bone was sticking out. And she took him to the emergency room. They're both minors. She took them to the emergency room. At the emergency room, they learned that, uh, her parents have been dropped from their insurance. And as they're sitting there, they could hear the staff whispering about calling CPS by calling Child Protective Services. So they fled. And the boy didn't get seen for like three days. He got a very bad infection. Everything turned out okay, but. But it was, you know, scary for a minute. So she wanted to build a tool that allowed minors to find safe and confidential medical services in an emergency situation. Because, uh. And this. These are her words, not mine. Maybe they should have called cps, but I didn't want them to. And if the choice is between calling CPS or getting the medical treatment, like we need the medical treatment, like, that's gotta happen first so kids can build these tools now. And what's really exciting about this to me in terms of overcoming barriers, because I think the biggest barrier, one of the biggest barriers to solving problems is old people. And I'm counting myself amongst old people because I have a really deep belief that the best. There's sort of three groups of people, beginning, middle and end. Right. I'm trying to think of bright ways to say it's not offending anyone. Young people, I'm going to call it. Ages 5 to 22 are the best problem finders and creative problem solvers, at least from a, uh, from a hypothetical perspective. But old people, um, you know, I'm going to call it like forty to a thousand. We hold the knowledge, the skills and the money and the resources to solve those problems. And we're not very good at listening to problems and solutions discovered and created by people who are 5 to 22. We sort of, you know, shunt them off. But guess what? For the first time in history, they don't need us anymore. Because schools are so easy, so powerful and so cheap, they can cut us out of the equation and they can just solve the problem themselves. So that's why a big part of why I don't care what the problem is that these kids are solving. I just care that they know by the end that they are capable of solving problems and that they should do it. And that is a very long winded and slightly obtuse way of sort of answering your question.

Speaker A: But it's what I got, completely answered the question and, um, gave us a little bit more in the education. I love the fact. And I, and I remember saying, uh, to a student one day, you know, if those of you who don't know and you're not in education, when a student leaves the classroom, all of our doors are locked. So they say, I need to go to the bath, or they go to the bathroom or they leave the room for whatever reason, they have to knock. And then somebody has to go open the door. Make sure it's them, blah, blah, blah. And one day, I don't know what was happening with me. I was just tired. And I promise you, I opened the door like 15 times. But I'm teaching and I'm clicking and I'm trying to walk around the room. And then we had this policy where the kids can't open the door. And I was like, oh, this is so crazy. And I said, I know. I promise somebody, I will pay you $1,000 and you can figure out how, like, you can scan your eyeball or your, or your ID or something. Give me something. And the kids looked at me, they're like, are you serious? I will find $1,000. I will work at Walmart doing the double shift at night to pay you, because this right here is bothering me. And what was crazy that, like, my students worked on it during lunch. Like they were processing. And this was before, like, coding was a, you know, a big thing. And we had, like, access to it now. But they were sitting there like they were drawing and they were trying to figure out, you know, you know, what they could do. And they came back with some great ideas. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I need something, because. And they were like, we see it every time you have to stop and you have to, like, go open the door. They were like, we see you, you

Speaker B: know, Getting like, dying inside a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah, dying inside a little bit. And I was one of those teachers. I'm not going to keep you from going to the bathroom. Like, I don't control your bladder. I'm not a bladder police. Go to the bathroom, sign out, go to the bathroom, come back in a reasonable time. Because that's what human beings do. If you get caught out there, you've been out there 10 minutes, that's on you, like. And I love that because you're right. One of the things that we're seeing is that. And we see with our own family members. I see with my nieces and nephews, we see the kids, the grandkids, they're solving things and creating. They have their own cash app. They don't need us. So they know how to go. They know how to fund it themselves. They figure it out. And so we need to really be listening to them and we need to be nurturing and guiding. And that's what I loved about what you were saying, where it was like, what do you want to solve? And then when they left, you said that part was so important, they realized that they were capable and they had been exposed to success. And that's most important. That's most important. And I don't know, y'. All. I did get emotional, so I know some of y' all were like, is she crying? I got emotional. I have no idea why you were telling me that story about the young lady and the food insecurity. I've never dealt with food insecurity and I have no idea why that may be emotional. But I'm sitting here like, oh, my gosh. And then you followed it, um, up with the story about the broken arm. I was like, oh, no. Like, but these are real stories. Like, these are real scenarios that our students and young people deal with.

Speaker B: Yeah. If we, If I ever do one of these down near you, you'll have to come and hang out. Because I'm always looking for adults. Because the role that adults can play really well, you know, which again, I feel like, you know, the educators who are listening to this and you, like, we're already there. The structures don't allow us for this. Right. But the role of adults becomes, um, I always have folks there, some folks who have some technical expertise in the tool. Uh, because I'm also really big on not like doing a 45 minute seminar in the tool. We do the 90 second version and you get started and as you need other features, then we teach those things. So there's a Need. But, so there's that. But most of, of the, the adults, um, and I'm using that loosely because sometimes it's college kids or whatever is to walk around to the tables and just help them sort of, you know, narrow their thinking, um, or push deeper or broaden their thinking or think about problems or you know, it's, it's a sort of pushes, um, you know, it's, it's inquiry based education kind of, um, it's just about what are the nudges and the pushes that we can give these students to allow them to succeed at a higher level. And that's, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. So if we, if I, if I'm ever doing one of these in Virginia, I'll have to let you know. So you can try to drive out now.

Speaker A: I'm coming. I will fly out and be there. So we're going to, we start getting to the, the good, I call it the goody goody part of the podcast. So here we go. Let me find my little thing. I used to call it Controversial Corner. And then we call it a truth table. So you just come to the table and you speak your truth. You always have the option sandbone. And I'm not answering that question because guess what? We humans and you always have that option to say and no and no. It's a complete sentence, period or exclamation point.

Speaker B: I learned that from Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen.

Speaker A: Those of you who don't know who that is, Google it later. Uh, Google them.

Speaker B: There's a great interview with them talking about how they learned at a young age that no is a complete sentence. And that's why like, they're not in the spotlight now. They didn't want to be. And they were like, no, sorry, sorry.

Speaker A: It was a complete sentence. And people need to learn that. Like I teach that to my nieces and nephews all the time. And how you say no is also important. It's not a no. No. See, that's a question mark. You can say no. Mhm. It's not about bandwidth and you just keep it moving. So one of the things he talked about was AI and you know people, oh my God, the kids and they cheating and they're not thinking and they just, and they are telling, telling AI to write their, write their paper for them. What's your take on it? Like, what should we do? What can we do? Don't tell everything because we still need to hire you to come speak at our schools. But what, what are Some things that we can, we should be looking for. And you can come as a parent, you can come as an educator, however you want to come. Uh, let's talk about.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I think that, um, I am still in the process of defining that answer on the, on the younger ages. I'll tell you that my gut, that I don't say with confidence is that the use of the tools should be exceedingly minimal at like the elementary level. But what we should be talking about are the groundwork things about, you know, about sources. I mean that's a conversation we can have with five year olds, um, you know, knowing where the information comes from, knowing that the tools exist, knowing the ways that you're already using AI, um, as a five year old. But you know, kind of deeper dive stuff I lean towards the answer there is like, let them be five year olds and play with blocks or whatever. As we get older. I, um, think two things. I think one of the pushbacks is this is scary. Bl, blah, blah. And I always cite, and I'm, I bet a lot of you do too. Social media. That's what we did with social media. We said, oh, this doesn't belong in schools. It's social media, so we are not going to deal with it in schools. And what happened was we left a whole bunch of, you know, humans with no functioning prefrontal cortex to develop their own rules of conduct. Um, and we see, you know, the, the rippling implications on social emotional wellness and on mental health that our failure as parents and teachers to address it caused. And I don't want that same thing happening with what I would argue is an even bigger inflection point. So, you know, that, that I think is part of it. I think that when it comes to. They're going to cheat. I think that a lot of us have been saying for, well, I mean, Dewey said it so like a long time people have been saying this, that we have got to change what education looks like. Um, and then we just don't. I think that this might be the technology that forces our hands because are kids cheating? Yeah, totally. And so would I have to be very, very clear. And I also know that the economic divide is going to make things massively different. We're already seeing really interesting data in universities, especially universities where these tools are allowed. And the quality of output between the students who can afford the pay models of, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever, and the students who just have to use the free ones is already massive. And professors are noticing it and seeing it. But even beyond that, you know, I already can stick an airpod in my ear, cover it with my hair a little bit, and have it listen and sort of respond in my ear to everything it's saying. And so we're like moments away from devices that are, are, you know, so little that you can't see it at all. And now what? Uh, like, are we going to look in everyone's ears? Like, we're. If the goal is to prevent the technology, we can do that right now, but we can't do that in three years. Uh, we just can't. So we have to rethink things. Is that scary? Yes. Do I think we should be asking really difficult questions and don't shoot me before you fully hear me, but do we need to be asking, should we even be teaching writing? Yeah, I do think we should be asking that. I think the answer is yes, we should be teaching writing. But I also think that the end result, motivations for teaching writing are probably changing and therefore how and why and when we teach writing probably also needs to change to match those things. Am I scared? I am what I, what I hope happens, and I think might is the same thing that happened with, you know, with calculators. And I know that that's, you know, reductive because it's a, uh, it's a much simpler technology and it's a much more narrow, focused technology. But if you read the op ed from when calculators became affordable, it was like, like brain, the brain is over. Um, we are, you know, nobody's going to know how to do any math and everything is ruined and the world is over. And what's actually happened is we've taught more and more advanced math at younger and younger ages. That's what's actually happened. When I was in high school in the 90s, I'm sorry, middle school in the, in the 90s and the early 90s, uh, a small percentage of kids tested into taking Algebra one in eighth grade. Now, in a lot of school districts, Algebra one, eighth grade is the norm. Half the kids test into doing it in seventh grade. And some kids are doing Algebra one in sixth grade because we've been able to teach it younger and younger because of the tools and they're understanding the concepts and also applying the concepts as opposed to just memorizing them like we did pre calculator. And I think that that's, that's sort of the power. What do I think school ultimately turns into? I mean, I hope, I think, I hope is number One, I think, you know, there's always this conversation around what's the best model of school? And my response is usually all of them is the best model of school. And I know that that gets hard, especially in rural areas where you can't possibly have seven schools, but maybe with AI tools, you can have seven schools in your one school. What I think it does, hopefully is turn school into sort of two concurrent goals. The first is more traditional, but may maybe a little less intense and a little less pressure. It's, it's core skills. We do need to understand the essentials and the basics of math. We do need to be able to write. Even if ChatGPT is writing for us. There's, uh, you know, there, there are, um, you know, problem solving structures that develop in our brains when we write that make it still important. Even if the future is AI just doing all the core writing, which I don't think it will be, but even if it is, so we still have to teach these things to get everybody to like, maybe a middle level of knowledge, um, you know, to a place where, you know, we are teaching the things that you, that the non educators of the world still remember in their 40s and, you know, still remember and apply. And those are the things we're teaching. And the rest of the time is how can I apply knowledge to solve problems, whether they're personal problems, family problems, neighborhood problems, community problems, state level, national or global problems, because all of those are important. That's what school should, in my opinion, ultimately be. And I think that these tools might both make that possible and make it almost inevitable. Because I don't really know what else school is. When $30 buys you, uh, a tiny earpiece that the teacher will never know is there, that is listening to and whispering in your ear about everything that's being said and done. Um, I don't, I don't think there's a way to address that with rules and regulation.

Speaker A: Wow, so much to unpack. And I don't even know if I want to unpack it here. I might want a part two. So this, I'm gonna say this, y', all. So this, I want you to listen to this again, because I am before I put it out there on social media. And what I'm hearing is we need to be fearful, but we also need to be prepared. And we need to like, really dig in and say, okay, where we can kind of guide this, where we think it should go. Because there's no roadmap. We are doing that now. Let the younger Children still continue to be young and as they matriculate up, we start shaping and formulating how you need to interact with AI. And I love. Right y' all know those of y' all who are listeners, you know, I believe in public school, charter school, parochial school, homeschool, um, micro school, the schools. But I believe in good education. So I don't care if any of those are not educating the children great. And in a, uh, in a productive way. They need to close. I don't care who you are. And that's where I see us going. But the second part I also heard was educators. Me, because I'm still an educator, Jeremy is still an educator. We have to go before and really dig into AI and we have to

Speaker B: do that visibly including our screw ups, by the way. We have to say we have to model. I used AI for this. You know, don't hide it. If you're using AI for something in classroom, tell them, cite it. Cite the AI is what, you know, model that usage. And if it's awful and they hate it, model that too. Like this is a new frontier and they need to see us as adults screwing it up, but not panicking or giving up because we screwed up. Instead learning from it and growing from it so that we can shape the tools to be what we need them instead of the tools shaping us into people we don't want to be 100%.

Speaker A: And those of us who are great educators, if you're really a great educator, you do, you allow mistakes to happen on purpose in class and you allow the kids to fix it. And also like middle school, I allow them to fix it. I'm like, oh, go, oh, fix it here. T. Matter of fact, I'm gonna sit down, let me get my notebook. And the kids will be like, oh, oh, you spelled it wrong. Oh my goodness, go fix that for me. I was rushing at 1am trying to get that done. Uh, and so I love that. And I did it the other day at work. All of these work notes, they were kind of everywhere. And I took a picture of it. I was like, hey, Claude, make this make sense. And it took me about seven tries because it was trying. It was trying to read our handwriting from a dry erase board. And I said, oh, no, this was this major the. And then this morning about 2 o', clock, I had finished it and I sent it to my team because we needed it today for a nine o' clock meeting. And that process is something that the kids need to see. You know, you need to go back and let Them see that. Thank you so much. This truth table was good. I'm definitely gonna, like, after y', all, you gonna see some clips of this. We're gonna have to do a part two. We might have to. I'm like, I already got some stuff on my brain.

Speaker B: All right, I'll hang out.

Speaker A: Here it is. This is the fun part. I love this part. We call this rapid fire reframe. So if you remember back in the day, the rap song would say, you can get with this or you can get with that. You can get with it. This is what this is now. This is the education version. And so because educators, we try and explain or we want to have the answer to be both, that's okay. But it's supposed to go quick. It's supposed to be like a go, go, go, go. So however you want to handle it, we're going to go. I'm, um, going to pull up the questions. If you want to explain it, you can. If you want to say, I'm going to take both answers, because that is okay. Also, if you just want to be like, this is the answer.

Speaker B: Ready?

Speaker A: Let's go. This is for your family culture or curriculum culture always.

Speaker B: But also where building and district leaders, I think, mess up is saying, I'm going to create a cult. Like, you can't create a culture. You have to. You know, it's a. It's a slow process over time, but a culture always.

Speaker A: Okay. The most overused education buzzword, rigor and fidelity. Should we start with strategy or, uh, should we start with heart?

Speaker B: Man, I promise I wasn't going to just say both. And I'm going to say both, because heart without strategy is a mess, and strategy without heart is, you know, evil and hollow. So it really has to be both.

Speaker A: Your most meaningful mistake that you've ever made.

Speaker B: I've got a good one. My first week as an administrator in a district, man, I. I think she's retired and won't hear this, but who knows? Uh, superintendent said, um, in the administrative cabinet meeting, said, uh, hey, you know the, uh, boys basketball team, you know, an amazing team, state champions all these times, whatever, but they don't have any practice gyms, and we really need practice gyms. We can't do new construction, so we're going to get rid of the, uh, welding and auto body programs and build a couple of practice gyms there. And I was brand new, and I said nothing. And it happened. And that was 15 years ago. And since then, there's been a guy standing on the street out there with a sign that says hiring TIG welders. Like $43 an hour plus benefits. I have friends with like double doctorates who don't make $43 an hour plus benefits. So that was, uh, probably my biggest. My biggest screw up, I think is just staying silent when, uh, when I knew that that was not the right choice.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. $43 an hour. Let me figure out. I'm in the wrong field. What would your 15 year old self say to you about the work you do today?

Speaker B: Oh, my God, you're such a nerd.

Speaker A: And there's nothing wrong with that. Let's be clear.

Speaker B: My 15 year old self would disagree completely.

Speaker A: What is one myth about education that needs to go away?

Speaker B: That the. That the final outcome, that the ultimate outcome should be about test scores and achievements on paper and not about growing compassionate problem solvers.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Okay, we're almost done. Test scores or testimonials?

Speaker B: I mean, neither, but I guess testimonials out of the two and. But also test scores for the students who. That is the best way that they can demonstrate mastery. I don't think there's something inherently wrong with test tests and test scores. It's this assumption that it's a panacea and this assumption that it is the only data point that matters. That's a problem.

Speaker A: There it is. Textbooks or TikTok tutorials?

Speaker B: Neither, I guess. I think TikTok tutorials a little bit because I think it's what gathers kids interest. But I do think we have an attention span problem in this country. Um, and I'm part of it. And we have to help our young people stick with things deeper. It's not that I have a problem with textbooks. It's that I tend to have a problem with textbook companies because y' all

Speaker A: know I have a problem with textbook companies. That's why I looked up. Look away. And I don't think Jeremy knows that I have. Y' all know I have a problem with textbooks. Anyway. Okay, here's the last one for our. This section. Fill in the blank. The future of education is.

Speaker B: The future of education is student powered and student led.

Speaker A: This is why you're our family. You're our cousin. This is why we're cousins. Because that is so true.

Speaker B: Does that mean I get to do. I get to come to the cookout?

Speaker A: Family cookout, but not like the big one. You can come to our family. I don't have permit. I don't have the. I can't give out like the ones for the big one.

Speaker B: Fine. One day, let me get my black

Speaker A: car, take it away.

Speaker B: One day I'll get the invite.

Speaker A: I mean, when you come to, like, the personal, personal family cookout, I still think that's big. Um, my family is big. And they'll just be like, come on, get some fish or whatever. Like, you just have to tell them what you, ah, are allergic to. So you won't get that on penicillin.

Speaker B: As long as you're not cooking with, with bread mold, we're fine.

Speaker A: Okay, there it is. Um, and so here's our last part. We do a call to action, and that just means how can our audience get in contact with you and where are you located? So we can read up on you, we can follow you, we can get our kids involved in any events, or we can hire you to come speak and train, um, and do the great things that you do in the world of education.

Speaker B: Because I'm an educator, I will answer that begrudgingly. But first, I want to talk about, without any preparation. So I'm sorry to the people that I forget, other people that I think you should be looking at and following people in organizations, um, off top of my head really, really quickly, we talked a lot about the need for kids to solve problems. There are a handful of organizations that, that's what their focus is nationally. And I think they're so, so important and so, so critical. The, uh, Mark Cuban foundation does these really, really incredible AI boot camps that are in person all over the country that are kids learning about AI but then also developing and solving problems. They also do these really amazing teacher bootcamps. Brand new. They just announced them, ah, a few weeks ago. It's, uh, by the time you hear this, both of those might be closed. But if you go to Mark Cuban AI I'm going to call it.org, i'm going to assume it's.org, mark Cubanai.org um, teachers. It has a bunch of resources where you can find those things. The National STEM Festival. National STEM Festival is run by Jenny Bukos and Carrie Byron. Carrie from mythbusters. Uh, and National STEM Festival brings. Has kids all over the country. Um, and they, they, they find three STEM champions from each state, territory and indigenous tribe. So roughly around 200 kids, they and a parent, fully all expenses paid to come to D.C. to present their solutions. They learn science, communication and media literacy. They meet with senators and heads of NASA and corporation heads and all of these things. And, but they have to solve a major problem to be selected as a champion. Really, really amazing work. The Samsung Solve for tomorrow. I do nothing with them at all but they do a really, really kind of similar piece of information piece uh, of work. I'm really into Play Lab. I think that Play Lab is maybe the most important AI tool in this, this kind of exact moment. Especially if you're talking about having kids solve problems because are they standalone applications to the end? They're not. But you as an educator with very little training can have your kids building and designing solutions and problems. It's so insanely easy. The team is really, really great. Two more after you leave something like that. You need a way to, to actually turn into standalone application. Favorite uh, is probably uh, Natalie Lau over at the MIT, uh, App Inventor Foundation. MIT App Inventor. Totally, totally free PlayLive by the way, also free for educators. MIT App and all these things are free. MIT App Inventor, uh, to actually turn those into a standalone application. Um, and then I had another one that I'm forgetting. So instead I'm just going to say uh, Mike Yates, who introduced us, uh, Mike Yates and Brett Rohr are two of my uh, favorite uh, collaborators and, and people that I bounce ideas off of. Brett is at Amplify, uh, they have a podcast as well. It's called Amplify to 11. I think it's really, really great. Mike is at the Reinvention lab at Teach for America, uh, which is essentially like a skunk works for education where they're trying all sorts of new things led by my uh, friend Sunana Chand who's also doing amazing things. So that's a rapid fire list. I'm sure I'm forgetting really, really critical and important people. You can find me on LinkedIn. I used to post on Twitter a lot. Um, I sadly had a couple hundred thousand followers when I couldn't do it anymore and deleted my account. LinkedIn is a whole lot smaller. So LinkedIn Jeremyshore.com and then both on Jeremyshore.com and LinkedIn there's a calendly in there to set up with the zoom. And I'll tell you right now that like, do I want to hear from your district administrator to come in and work for you for real? Totally. But also you're a teacher and you can't hire me, but you want to shoot some ideas and brainstorm a little bit. Don't feel bad. There's like a coffee with Jeremy Choice in there. Do it. It's my favorite part of the week when I have coffee with people. You have to bring Coffee or tea. And it can't be, you know, deep agenda. It's got to be just sort of shooting the breeze and kind of figuring stuff out together. But I'd love to hang out with all of you anytime.

Speaker A: And if Jeremy thinks of anymore before we. Before this episode airs, of course, we can find in the show notes, um, and, you know, we always add. We can always add to the show notes as we see and hear. And if you have anything you want to add to the show.

Speaker B: I thought of one more. Sorry, last one. I do have one more, but it's one other major, major favorite, and that's the Congressional App Challenge. I like it because it's maybe the most bipartisan thing happening in this very fractured country, because I'm making this number up. Something like 93% of House districts hold a Congressional App Challenge in their district, and so the rep from that district holds the event. The winners of each of those events are invited to this event called House of Code, where they go to the US House of Representatives and they share the solutions that they've made. And again, for all of these, what I love about Congressional, uh, App Challenge, Samsung's Fall for Solve for Tomorrow National STEM Festival. Um, and the other one that I mentioned in the beginning that I brought. Oh, Cuban Foundation. Is that it's about solving problems. It's about finding solutions and creating solutions to problems that are important to you as a student. And there's nothing more important and more powerful for your own future and for all of our futures than all of you young people solving problems.

Speaker A: I love that. Thank you.

Speaker B: Anymore. That was. That was the one I couldn't. That I. That I knew. I forgot.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm glad. I'm glad you put that one in there. So this is how we end the education concierge podcast. Um, season 10, Legacy of Progress. Jeremy. Hi. You're from Ohio. Still has some rural parts in Ohio. I'm from Virginia. I grew up in Lawrenceville, but I went to church at Little Shallow Baptist Church on Out of Damn Road in Jerry, where my pastor was Reverend Jacob Turner Jr. And you better not say nothing bad about my pastor. Like, yes. And it was like I was like, uh, what? And like you're crying because so strong and opens up your nose. But that's what country kids did. And you always have the pastor and the guest pastor. And one of the things I loved about church is that the guest pastor would always give us some type of encouragement for the rest of the week to go from Sunday to Sunday. And so that is what I always ask of my guests as you leave. Give us a quote, a scripture. You can sing, you can rap. If you need to dance, you gotta adjust your video. But what is something that you can give all of us to keep us inspired from this episode until they hear the next episode?

Speaker B: Uh, my advice is if you're in, you know, an educator at all, and you're not using AI every day, start. But by the same token, if you're using it for everything, stop. Um, like there is a happy medium and then the quote, I guess. Um, and I'm just making this up as I go. I'm going to go with real innovation happens when teachers are trusted and students are empowered.

Speaker A: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls of all ages, thank you for participating. You know what to do. Share, subscribe, and make sure that we know how to contact you. But more than that, go out and make sure you're changing the world. I'll see y' all later.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker A: Uh, thanks.