MDVIP's New CMO Dr. Jeffrey Lin on What Sustainable Practice Actually Looks Like

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Speaker E: mobile.com of our affiliates, um, is really this, this change, uh, where because you're able to practice medicine in a slightly in, in this different way, um, because you're able to spend more time with patients, a lot of, you know, our affiliates will come up to me and say, listen, I couldn't have practiced another year, but now I'm going to practice 10 or 15 more years. And so think about those extra 10 or 15 more years you're now able to provide to your patients. I think that's a great outcome too. So I think about it from those two lens and that's typically how I talk to the doctors about it too.

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Speaker G: Good morning OR Good evening, Dr. Nation. You're listening to Concierge Medicine, today's Doctorpreneur Leadership podcast, and our guest is. Well, let me just say this. You know, the best leaders I've ever seen don't just solve problems, they eliminate them before they even show up. And today's guest has spent his career asking one simple question. What if we prevented the problem before it started and it's so applicable to physicians in their careers? We have Dr. Jeffrey Lynn. He's a Harvard trained cardiologist, a, uh, former professor, and now the chief medical Officer at mdvip. And he's built some great care models from the ground up. He served NFL players and. And seeing firsthand what medicine can look like when physicians have the time, and most importantly for us, the relationship to do it right. So, Dr. Lin, welcome to the Dr. Preneur Leadership Podcast.

Speaker E: Thanks so much, Michael. Really happy to be here.

Speaker G: So, um, for those of us listening, most of us are familiar with the organization mdvip, um, but mdvip, and I'll let you kind of go into it in a moment, is the national leader for personalized preventive primary care and their partner with physicians across the U.S. uh, to give them really much more time and much more of a relationship with their patients by changing the business model. And so tell us a little bit about your background, how you became a doctor first before we jump into your current work.

Speaker E: Yeah, thanks, Michael. Um, I'm really excited to tell you guys a little bit about, um, my journey here. I think it's been pretty varied. Um, and so I actually started out like you were mentioning, as a cardiologist, uh, um, about ten years ago, and practiced for a couple of years in a very busy, uh, health system in a traditional practice, uh, before actually, uh, leaving my cardiology practice to join a health care startup at that time that was, uh, building in the primary care space, um, especially in the Medicare Advantage world. Uh, and there I really had an opportunity to build and practice in a primary care model that we've since scaled across the country. Um, and just like you were saying, you know, I think one of my. One of the things I've learned through that is that, um, you know, prevention is really. Preventing the problem is really, really important. And, um, it actually started pretty early, uh, when I was a cardiologist. I have this patient that I often, uh, think about and Talk about which was, uh, was a lady I used to see almost every month in cardiology practice. And um, she was in her 80s and had a number of different conditions. I was managing her blood, um, and one day I asked her just you know, like, tell me a little bit about what you're doing tomorrow. And she showed me her calendar and it just had list after list of doctors that she had to see. Um, and it really has occurred to me during that time that like, you know, I wasn't actually helping her solve any of her problems from a preventative standpoint. And even more importantly, there wasn't really a ton of coordination around her care. And as such we weren't really delivering the type of care that I've always hoped for, uh, as a doctor. And that's what really uh, got me here to mdvip, where um, I've been really excited about the clinical model, about the patient doctor experience and relationship. And just like you said, um, the organization has been a national leader here for the last 25 years.

Speaker G: And we'll get into the weeds of it, but uh, how long have you been with mdvip? And then I have one question after that answer.

Speaker E: Yeah. So I've been officially in my role for about two months now. And then uh, prior to that spent ah, a couple of months, uh, getting to understand the organization a lot more closely.

Speaker G: And if I was to sit down with you in my role, um, but let's say I'm a physician, but I'm not and you're having dinner with me tonight and you say, I ask you, what's the most surprising thing you've learned about that surprised you, that you weren't aware of that is about this space or about the organization?

Speaker E: Yeah, I would say, uh, two things I think. One is that um, that this type of sort of preventative, personalized clinical model is really for all types of patients and members. Um, and so I've been surprised by just the variety and kind of diversity of uh, folks that join mdvip. And it's not always necessarily the same type of patient or person that you think about. And I think that has a lot of uh, considerations as we think about um, how we deliver a good clinical model to a number of different types, uh, of members and patients. Um, and then the second that I've been really pleasantly surprised, uh, maybe not surprised, but really pleasantly, uh, happy about, is that there's such a great network community, uh, when you have, um, ah, a large group of 1400 plus affiliates, um, in the MDVIP model. And perhaps that was one piece I didn't appreciate as much when I joined, but uh, now really appreciate that, uh, you know, everybody depends on each other and it's a really great ah, network for physicians to learn from each other.

Speaker G: And we, we talk a lot about the entrepreneurial business side of medicine because it's something that, you know, you go to medical school and you're trained to, to think differently. Your, your language is an entirely, it's like Greek. Um, and so when you're thrown into the idea of let's change your business model, it's not for everybody, it's not for every doctor. Yes, every doctor probably could make it work, but it's not, you know, you and I have probably met clinicians and practitioners and physicians out there who's like, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't enjoy this. It's, it's too much, it's too much of whatever. So what, how would you Describe what makes MDVIP's model different from a traditional plan reimbursed primary care practice?

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a great question, Michael. It's, it's completely different. Um, and so, you know, I came from a traditional um, ah, space, uh, before. And one of the things you know about the traditional primary care space is it's largely broken. Um, and this doesn't mean that there's not great doctors, there's amazing doctors out there. But structurally, um, it's very hard to operate in the traditional primary care space. You have panels of 2,000 to 2,500 patients. You may spend 10 to 15 minutes in a follow up visit, uh, with patients. And it's just really hard to deliver that type of proactive care, to have those longitudinal relationships. And so MDVIP turns this completely on its head. And so what the model does is really two big things. Um, the first thing is that um, we really focus in on what we call our preventative clinical approach. Um, you know, this is called the annual wellness program and it's actually what the membership fee covers. Uh, and it, it covers a number of different screeners and diagnostics and tests that you typically don't get in a traditional physical exam. Um, and then the uh, time with the doctor to really go through it. Um, and you know, we believe really strongly in it clinically, um, as physicians. Um, and so that's piece number one. And just like you're saying Michael, when you have that model where you have that uh, membership fee that's able to uh, be part of the business model, it actually allows the doctor to then have smaller panels. Uh, so you go from 2,500 to 500 to 600. And as a result you get to spend a lot more time with patients, coaching, talking about behavioral change, all those things that are part of prevention that we don't get in the traditional model.

Speaker G: Yeah, I remember sitting at one of the, uh, you, I don't know if you all still do them. I'm sure you do. It's a normal practice in this space. If you're a physician listening is you host it kind of open houses, talk, talk with the doc. Right. And it's like I bring my patients in and I explain with some experts who can do the FAQs about what this transition to this model, this more personalized relationship based model it looks like, and why, how the billing changes and insurance and Medicare and all these different things. And I remember one lady stood up after it was time to ask questions and she said, yeah, I don't get it. You have 5,000 patients right now and you're going to go to 500. I just still don't understand how you're going to, with 500 patients, how you're going to have time for me to take my phone calls and see me. 500 still sounds like a lot. Uh, it's interesting to hear patients perspectives because they do bump into these little rabbit trails where and riff about some of the interesting comments you've received from doctors or the stories that you've heard.

Speaker E: Yeah, I think the most important piece, um, that I hear from that is really this. You know, when you want to understand the model and you want to understand how patients experience the model, uh, you got to talk with our affiliate doctors. Um, and that's what I love about what you said, Michael. Um, you know, we have a lot of opportunities for prospective doctors to talk with our current affiliates. Um, I spent a lot of my uh, initial time talking with our current affiliates to really understand, you know, does the model work for them? Um, does 500 patients work for them? And, and the answer has been really yes. Um, and I think it comes down again to um, really having the, I'd say three things. It's really having that preventative approach, right. The clinical model and the anal wellness program. Um, giving you the opportunity to have those longer, um, visits, talk about milestones and then follow up people. You know, in a traditional model you might see people one or two times a year, but here you can see, you know, a patient four to six times a year. And then to your really good point, learning from the community of Docs that have been, uh, in the MDVIP model for, you know, a decade. Right. They can share a lot of those best practices of how you can, um, deliver, uh, the care that we all want to deliver, even with a panel of 500 patients. So.

Speaker G: Yeah, well, and I want you to explain a little bit about what the model looks like from your perspective, your role on, and seat on the bus there, because there is a lot of, for physicians, you know, bumping into it for the first time. And I love, I've always enjoyed, enjoyed the, the public relations side that MDVIP and the approach that you guys have taken with, with different things in this space. I, you know, concierge medicine for, for us is those two words. It's the two most polarizing words sometimes in medicine. You know, it's like, well, from a business perspective, that is plenty of others. Um, but, you know, it gets the attention, you know, and most people now, most positions like, I don't understand that. And quietly behind close, between you and me, I want that for my daughter when she goes to college, or I want that for my mom. Um, but they don't always understand it. So I love your approach and MDVIP's approach of personalized relationship based, because that's, that's what this is. But they have to have the door. And sometimes that door is, look, we have to get your attention because you're so busy and you're seeing 5220, 500 patients, you know, and then there's all these misunderstood. And I think it's gotten a lot less. And you can speak to the model, but I also want you to speak to some of the objections you hear out there, you know, and the myths related to the PR and those types of things. So I'm throwing a lot, I'm throwing a grenade in your room. But, you know, there's questions from patients and even physicians like, well, that's. What about Medicare opt outs? And uh, how does that model work with if I want to accept Medicare? Or what about this double dipping I heard when I read the, the, you know, some media report. What, um, if I just want to do cash, you know, so talk to us about what the MDVIP model is and how do you answer and address some of those landmines, so to speak?

Speaker E: Yeah, I think these are really, really great questions, Michael. Um, let me break it down in kind of two, two pieces. Uh, I think this will address both parts of your question. I think the first is just at a high level how we think about the uh, physician model in MDVIP and how I talk to physicians about it. Um, and then the second piece is addressing some of, uh, these objections that, uh, we all hear. Um, I think the first piece is when I think about physicians in the MDVIP model, it's really about empowering primary care physicians and any sort of longitudinal physician actually, to really practice, you know, the best medicine that they, that they can for their community. You said this actually at the beginning of the, of the podcast, and we do that through a number of different ways. Right. And so, um, MDVIP has been doing this for 25 years. We have a lot of data that helps us understand who's going to be successful. Right. That's number one. We don't want our doctors to be unhappy because they're unsuccessful in this model. Uh, whether it's not the right fit for them or it's not the right fit for their patients. Right. And so that's step number one. Um, and then we actually think about the entire life cycle of the practice. And so we've increasingly thought as well towards, you know, 20 years that you've been in the model, um, we want you to be able to preserve your legacy. And so we're going to help you on the back end in terms of thinking about how you preserve that, have some financial value out of your practice, um, and be able to, uh, sell your practice to, to another great physician that can come in and take care of your patients. And then I would just say there's a ton that goes on in between. Right. Um, and really our goal there is to help, help, uh, our physician affiliates really be able to focus on the clinical pieces. There's still a lot of the business pieces that they will have, but, um, things like, you know, figuring out revenue, uh, management, things like local marketing and support with websites. Um, and to your point, some of the compliance and regulatory changes, those are all things that we continue to support our docs with in the model.

Speaker G: Yeah, and it's about how much like we, we talk a lot about here at Concierge Medicine today and with, um, folks at MDVIP over the years, it's you, you're starting to walk across a really foggy bridge and you just maybe need a certain amount of expertise, hand holding, so to speak, to get you through that fog. Maybe you want to do some of it on your own. Fine. If you can make it work, good luck, you know, because it can be done. But you got to be pretty darn likable and almost have your unofficial mba. Uh, We've had those conversations over the years, but, you know, it's. I have to move on to the next question. Um, and first of all, this is a compliment to the history of MDVIP. 25 years. That's awesome. 14, uh, hundred affiliates. That's great. Uh, and this is not a sponsored podcast by any means for those listening. This is. We feel as though Dr. Lynn, his expertise, MDVIP does, is such a big part of what makes this industry work and why it's, you know, it. What it can do to a physician's career, their family, their marriage, et cetera. And to compliment your, Your teammates, the medical outcome data that you guys have done in the research over the years, I have just been so. I remember speaking on, uh, moderating a panel, and the other folks in the space were with the MDVIP person who was sitting on stage with us. They said, thank you. Thank you for doing that because it has proven certain things, it's answered certain questions, adjusted to certain narratives, what we really are actually trying to do in this space and how we're helping physicians. Um, so how would you, you're a trained cardiologist. Um, how did you, your training really shape the way you think about

Speaker C: long,

Speaker G: um, term prevention, long, ah, term healthcare today?

Speaker E: Yeah, I love this question about, uh, how my background as a cardiologist really shaped a lot of my views. Um, you know, cardiology is a really interesting specialty, meaning that, um, more than ever, cardiology and the disorders that we encounter in cardiology are really the result of just like years and years of accumulated risk. Right. And so, um, you know, everything that we do now in, and I'm not in my 20s, but what you do in your 20s and what you do in your 30s really impact your, your overall health, um, in your 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. And this is what I call the long game of health. Right. Um, and in cardiology, this is especially, uh, especially key. Uh, and so that was a big piece of how I really came to this view. I'll also just say, like, I talk a lot about health as a long game, but I also tell a lot of my patients that it's never too late to start. And so we often, as a cardiologist, you often meet patients at an inflection point when they've had a heart attack, unfortunately, or they have a new arrhythmia, or they've been diagnosed with high blood pressure. And even in those moments, if you can be proactive and personalize, you can really help manage the risk of those conditions. Over the next several decades. And so start early, but if you haven't started, it's never too late to start.

Speaker G: That's how I love it. And uh, you know, I recently went to Canada. I'm Canadian, so I'm probably the last Canadian on the planet to think that things like relationship based healthcare and concierge medicine and what you guys do and what your doctors do is, is a good thing, you know, um, but, uh, bringing that kind of vision of playing the long game into your specific role, um, what does that mean to the MDVIP doctor in practice today? How do you help them see that? Because they're in the weeds. They're like, I feel like I'm learning all over again. And in some ways I coach our speakers to come for the conference. I say just start elementary. Like, they've been so busy for decades, so share data. You know, they eat that up. So, but just start elementary like, because now you're running a practice, you're, you're learning how to hire staff. Um, and maybe that's something that you can talk to as well is how do, how do you handle those types of operational day to day, week to week, month to month. How often are you having meeting with the doctor to say, hey, we're holding your hand again, let's look at some numbers because we've got some concerning trends happening in your community. So, um, I'll let you kind of riff on that a little bit.

Speaker E: Yeah, such a, uh, such a good, like, question. And I'll break it down, I think again into a couple of different parts that I heard. I think the first is just the broad messaging when, you know, because to your point, um, structurally, like most medicine feels very reactive instead of proactive. And so this idea of a long game of health, um, is very, it can be very new for doctors even though many of them, uh, you know, uh, feel it, uh, every day. Um, and so the first piece is just to really paint it in a way for doctors that makes sense. And so, um, the first piece I always talk to doctors about is really think about health as just a really special investment for your patients. Um, and I often use the example of like education for your kids. Right. Um, we think about education as a long term investment. Um, you know, as parents, we are willing to like, move to really great school districts, uh, that have really high property tax. We're willing to pay for private schools in some cases. Um, we should think about health in the same way. Right. It's a really special investment. Um, and uh, it's something that, again, if you focus on things like, let's say, stress and nutrition and exercise and prevention on a day to day or month to month basis, you can really, uh, get compounding sort of health benefits many decades down the road. Now, the key here is that, um, you can do that as a patient, but you really need a partner in that. And that's what the MDVIP affiliate doctors is really good at. That's like what I talk to them about. Um, you have to be the partner here. And, um, you know, some good examples of this are, uh, to be a great partner when it comes to thinking about screenings, advanced screenings and diagnostics and how that shapes the risk of your patients really spending the time to learn and talk to your patients about some of these lifestyle things like nutrition that we don't get a lot of education on in medical school. Um, and if you do that and be that great partner, um, to your patients, you actually get one, great health outcomes, as you've noted. Um, but two, you also get a great patient experience and then the provider has a much happier experience as well.

Speaker G: We're going to talk a little bit about, uh, the qualities required to make this work. Um, but I'm going to twist the question a little bit because I think you've had these encounters. I've had these encounters where, you know, this position could do really well. And you know, you've done the benchmarks, you've done the analysis. They kind of check almost every box, but it's kind of a no for now, but not forever. What does that doctor quality look like? And why wouldn't they be a good fit?

Speaker E: Yeah, I, you know, I think that just to say we, we do just like you mentioned, Michael, encounter that, that, that doctor. Right. Um, and so I, I think about kind of three really important qualities in a doctor. And you, you started to touch on this. Um, you have to have first and foremost, like a preventative, proactive mindset. Um, you have to believe in that model of care. Um, and so we look for that to your, to your point. The second is you have to be a great doctor when it comes to active listening, when it comes to empathy. Right. We can, we can create a model that gives you a ton of time with your patients. But if you're not good at that, uh, you're not going to be happy, uh, in the model, and your patients aren't going to be happy either. And so those two things are really important. Um, and then the third is what you're actually hitting on, which is for Every one of these doctors, uh, that I meet, I think a lot about whether they are at a point where they have this growth mindset of tackling this. Right. Um, and I think this is a piece that's often missed is the idea of a growth mindset. Right. Because many of us, just like you've mentioned, don't train, uh, in this type of model in medical school. So, um, it's a learning process, whether that's, you know, learning the operational side that you're. You're talking about, but also learning how to care for patients in a very different type of proactive, personalized model. And so, um, we. I value, you know, I talk to a lot of doctors about this growth mindset, and if they're not ready at that time, that's okay. Um, you know, everyone's kind of growth mindset comes at different points in your life. Um, and if they become ready and they, you know, have the first two factors, then. And I certainly want to talk with them again when, when they're ready.

Speaker G: Um, you know, there's. We're trying to cover the whole listener gamut here of entry, curiosity currently in it, uh, to exit. And that's kind of our trajectory for this aim, uh, for this podcast, uh, and this education today with Dr. Lin. He is the chief medical officer at MDVIP. And, um, going into the next question, um, you know, there's a lot of now different pathways for doctors. There's direct primary care. There's much more of a purist approach that's cash only. Usually the per member per month is $99. You know, it's like an, for lack of a better description for those unfamiliar with this space, kind of like a netflix of healthcare, like a very basics, you know, primary care. Then you have the employer pathway of direct primary care. Then you have, you know, I take Medicare and I do a personalized approach. I don't. I, uh, have opted out of Medicare, but I still accept insurance. I'm going to wean off of my 30 insurance plans and just go to the top five. And then maybe in two years I'll look at the numbers and I'll go to the top two. Um, but as we explore those different pathways, what do you think physicians are looking for today? Um, the traditional plan reimbursed health systems are really failing to provide. And how does the MDVIP model address that gap?

Speaker E: Yeah, let me address, uh, some of the first parts of your question, which are, you know, there are different pathways to do this type of, to do this type of care. And I think where MDVIP is particularly special one is that we are, you know, the model's been created in a certain way, uh, to be, uh, compliant and compatible with Medicare and a lot of commercial insurances. And so, um, to your point, that gives more options for the patient and the doctor, uh, in terms of when things need to be done. Um, and then I think the second piece is really, uh, uh, having it at a price point, um, at the membership fee, which pays again for this clinical model, um, at a place where we really believe that we can scale it and get this to more and more folks around the country. Um, and so it's not necessarily kind of, you know, even the 10 grand or in some cases the 50 to 100 grand, um, that's really hard for most folks to afford, but it sits somewhere in that two to $5,000 per year, um, price point, which is not dissimilar to some higher end, uh, gym memberships. And so I think that's really an important part in terms of thinking about the pathway now, what, you know, tying that to sort of what doctors, um, are looking for and how we address some of those gaps. I think you nailed it on the head, which is that, uh, doctors are really looking for two aspects. I call this intrinsic motivation. One is really agency. And so this is about kind of independence. Um, and when I think about agency, like in a traditional health system, um, you have less agency. It's just the way you feel as a doctor, and I've been there. Um, you have shorter patient visits, you have to see a certain number of patients per day. Um, it's volume driven in terms of how you're compensated, compensated, um, and it feels just less like you have sort of say over kind of how things go. Um, and in the MDVIP model, you know, along those pathways, you have that independent practice where you're able to, um, uh, you know, practice in a way that you want. So that's piece number one. And then I think the second, you know, piece is the, what I call clinical mastery. Like we, we all as doctors want to feel that we are, you know, clinically learning that we're becoming better masters of our art. Um, and I think that goes back to this fact that you' based off this, this really great clinical model that focuses on prevention, um, that has, you know, health outcomes associated with it. Um, and, uh, and doctors really, uh, appreciate, I think, that point, um, and growing into that, that role of being more preventative and proactive with this clinical model.

Speaker G: And I've talked a lot about over the years. And I, so I remember emailing, uh, some of your team members a uh, couple of years ago saying thank you guys for finally putting the numbers around the patient burnout data because I'm not a physician, I'm just a patient. But, uh, the role that that gives me is that I do know what it's like to sit on the other side of the exam room from my doctors and sit in a two and a half hour with no update with my daughter, you know, in the waiting room. It's like, oh, they're not even here today. Nice. You know, um, in healthcare it's like, okay, I've. You and I have heard all the complaints from your peers, your colleagues, like, oh, it's so bad, such a broken system. Well, yeah, we're, but there's things out there that are working that we don't have to complain anymore. So if you want to complain and cross your arms, sit in the back of the room, fine, you can do that. But that's not the mindset. That's not the growth mindset. It's not the um, it's helping these physicians to get over that altruistic mindset where look, I was taught, I was treated, one physician said, like I was 6 inches tall in, in school. And um, and now I kind of believe that, you know, like, I have no worth. And so one of the neatest conversations is these types of introduction, like, hey, I'm exploring these models and I'm doing all my homework and asking these questions and um, you know, but telling them you're worth more than you think you are. And I, one of the top five most influential voices in my life besides my wife and kids, are my doctors. You know, and it's like your words carry so much weight and you've got to be in a box in a model that allows you and permits you to do that. So when you bump into the positions in the conversation and you have these conversations at team meetings about overcoming this mindset, m of look, they're telling me out there from trying to get more people to be a part of these models because they are so relationship based, they can do so much for our lives, the physicians lives, the communities of patients. Um, yeah, but I was taught to be everything for everybody at all times and nail on the head, I get to wear that like it's a badge of honor and make no money all at the same time and maybe retire and try to go do another career because I can't make this job happen. And you talk to Kids, and you talk to doctors and you're like, hey, would you encourage your kids to go be a doctor? Most of them are like, go into specialties. You know, you've probably had those conversations. So. So talk a little bit about how you're overcoming some of those altruistic mindsets. Yes, it's your greatest strength. But it's also, on the other hand, if you're going to do this and do it well, you might have 2,500 patients, but you need 300, you need 700. A little bit about that.

Speaker E: Yeah. It's a really great question and one that comes up a lot in terms of, you know, this, um, uh, feeling from doctors. Right. About the altruistic component. And I would actually say that that feeling is actually really compatible with this model. Um, and so I often think about it from a slightly different lens. Um, you know, the first thing I'll say about it is think about this from the standpoint of a patient's experience. You brought this up just now, Michael. I think it's something we don't actually think about a lot of in healthcare. Right. What's the patient's experience with healthcare? And it goes back to that, you know, the. The patient of mine that was experiencing healthcare from a very fragmented standpoint. Um, and when you don't have a great experience with healthcare, it's really hard to actually be engaged in your health. And as a result, it's very hard to stay healthy. Right. Um, and so some of the things that really I have struggled with a physician is when I see a patient who's had a heart attack, and you realize that there were so many opportunities that we could have intervened better, um, uh, you know, 10, 15 years ago, um, to really help them avoid, uh, uh, this outcome. And I think every doctor that resonates with, like, we want to actually avoid those outcomes. And it starts with delivering a better patient experience. I'll then take that to the other side, which is like, uh, you know, from the provider. Oh, from a physician experience standpoint. Right. Um, I think you brought up a really great point around physician burnout. Um, you know, it's. It's something that's really prevalent. Um, I think 40 to 50% of PCPs have reported at some point being burnt out. Um, you know, one out of three have said, you know, at some point in the next couple years, I may leave medicine, clinical medicine. And, um, that's real. Those are real statistics that, um, are really bothersome to me as, or troubling to me as a doctor in A healthcare system. Um, and what I see when I, you know, talk with some of our affiliates, um, is really this, this change, uh, where. Because you're able to practice medicine in a slightly, in this different way, um, because you're able to spend more time with patients, a lot of, you know, our affiliates will come up to me and say, listen, I couldn't have practiced another year, but now I'm going to practice 10 or 15 more years. And so think about those extra 10 or 15 more years you're now able to provide to your patients. I think that's a great outcome, too. So I think about it from those two lens, and that's typically how I talk to the doctors about it too.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker G: And, you know, I, we have focused a lot of our commentary as far as business education inside the practice. Like, okay, you know, yeah, that waiting room chair, it's gotta change. Like, go to Home Depot. I remember one doctor, she's like, go to Home Depot. Get some stinking throw pillows. Like, you gotta do better from the patient's side. Because they're evaluating everything and they're probably spending unfortunate, you know, they've spent more time in the waiting room, that chair. And if that chair cost a thousand dollars versus the $300 typical waiting room chair, how do you think from a, from an emotional mental health perspective, that chair, it matters because it made them feel like a million bucks. And you're trying to soften the beaches, as my, um, mentor says. She says, you know, you're softening the beaches before they even. You're, you're disarming some of the patients before they even walk in. Because we suit up. I was just texting my daughter. I was like, here's, unfortunately, the questions you're going to need to ask the admin staff. And don't take this for an answer, and don't take this for an answer. And they will dismiss you and they will try to throw this off, and then they'll say, oh, this is policy. There's so much objections. Walls thrown at, uh, landmines thrown in the patient's way. And it's not to say that any particular model in personalized care is going to alleviate all of those problems. But maybe tomorrow you think about one thing you could do in your practice. Just one, you know, like, start small. You know, like, what's one thing on Monday morning you could do that is a barrier to a patient that you're like, you know what? We don't have a mouthwash machine in our bathroom, but our bathroom gets visited A lot in the practice. And of course they're coming in with bad breath. That's the, uh, they're getting real close and you know, with their physician and they're like, that would be awesome. And I will say this about particularly we learn from other places we go to in healthcare. You look at a dentist, for example, you know, I walk into that restroom and the first thing I said when they moved to the physical location of the building, building, hey, did you put in that mouthwash machine in the, the bathroom? And they're like, yes, we did. And uh, in 20 years of being a patient at that practice, not perfect by any means, you know, not perfect, but good enough that we're still, our family, still goes there. I have seen that mouthwash station empty one time or without cups in 20 years. That means that you're having this growth mindset, this cultural shift in your practice that says everybody's involved in the patient care and the journey. And you throwing up a, you know, a red flag that says, no, we don't do that here. That's so frustrating to a patient. And thinking in those terms as a physician, if you're going to move into these types of models, that is so important. Do you have any thoughts on that before we move into our last couple of questions? Questions.

Speaker E: No extra thoughts. You said it really well. I love that.

Speaker G: So one of the, as we move into the exit stage of our conversation, you know, there, um, you've been around now, MDVIP has for over 25 years. You've seen physicians come, go, enter and exit. Uh, you know, that has been encouraging. And I. The from a physician satisfaction. We did informal online polls of physicians and one of the comments we allow them to make is, hey, make your own comments. They're like a 20 year satisfaction poll was like, there's no space, uh, like a checkbox on here for. I absolutely love this. You need more exclamation points on this. And not every physician enjoys the experience of these models, but for the most part, I would say 98% of them probably do. Again, not medical or scientific by any means or backed up with any data, but of the physician encounters I've had in conversations over the years, the observations would say very, very satisfied. In fact, you know, uh, the attrition of patients saying, you know what, uh, they, they usually come back a year later, like the, the ones you thought would join the practice. You know, you're like, they didn't join, but they'll come back. They'll probably come back within the next year. To 18 months. But we've seen a lot of health systems and uh, embrace these types of membership based medicine models. Um and then we also hear from you know, the uh, caution flags that payers will throw up to these models as well over the years. What do health systems and payers most often understand? Maybe this is a two part question but I would also add um, you know, specialties. Looking at this, you know. Well I don't, I'm, I do. Family. What about me? Or I do, you know, one that has, I think my specialty could work for this. Um, what do health systems payers specialists most often misunderstand about membership based models like NMDVIP model?

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a great question Michael. There's always a lot of questions from health systems and uh, payers and um, I've had an experience with in both and so um, I bring some particular perspective from that angle. Um, you know I, I start by, by just saying like healthcare has a lot of places that we can make it better. Um, and so there's almost no single like universal care delivery system or ah, one checkbox that we check off, uh, from a regulatory standpoint that solves all the issues that we, we experience with healthcare in the United um. There's actually place for all these different players. Um and um, we all serve a purpose to help solve some of the problems that we've encountered in healthcare as participants. And so I would say for health systems, right. I think MDVIP really provides a very preventative approach and so it's about helping keep those, as many patients healthy as we can, um, over decades. But sometimes patients do need things that require uh, like a specialist. Right. Or require an acute uh, episode of care. And there's no better place for those than in great hospital systems and great health systems. And so um, two different players, um, helping solve different parts of the care delivery problems uh in the United States. And I think the same goes with payers. Um, I think you know, uh, because um, mdvip, uh is compatible with a lot of insurances including Medicare, um, that uh, we probably work more with payers than uh, most other uh, membership based or concierge models. Um and what I would say is, you know, um, at least in you know, our going back to some of the outcomes data. Right. Um, I think when you have a proactive personalized approach, you can actually do quite a bit when it comes to helping reduce uh, you know, the cost of healthcare in the United States while maintaining or even improving the quality of it. Right. And that's Like a big um, focus, um, for improving healthcare. Um, and so whether that's reducing hospitalizations that aren't needed, reducing readmissions that aren't needed, um, or ED visits, uh, that aren't needed. And so those are kind of the two areas I talk about with both payers and health systems.

Speaker G: And is an MDVIP model compatible with some specialties?

Speaker E: Yeah, completely, uh, completely. I think one of the nice pieces is because you uh, you know, it is compatible with Medicare with a lot of commercial insurances. Um, you know, uh, plenty of our MDVIP affiliates will send when needed to a cardiologist or to a hormonologist. Um, and uh, one of the areas that I'm actually most proud of is we, we have something called the Medical Centers of Excellence which is, is you know, we work with a number of these institutions like um, you know, across the country that are you know, specialists, ah, when it comes to cancer, when it comes to heart disease, uh, and mdvip, uh, really helps a lot of our patients and members and doctors, um, when the member has a particular issue that really needs kind of that specialized care to get in. Uh, with some of these really busy um, specialized health system centers and ah,

Speaker G: a couple of our lightning round questions. You can be however brief or long winded as you would like to. Our guest today has been Dr. Jeffrey Lynn. He is now, he's a Harvard trained cardiologist. Uh, he's a former professor and he's now the chief medical officer at mdvip. We'll put the links to uh, his uh, bio and to MDBIP as well to learn more. Um, you know. Well actually before we jump into the lightning round, quick question. I was sharing the other day with some kids. Look, life is going. Life is not just a one straight line to better. It is kind of one of these. And you hope that you're continuing to go up like the stock market, it's like it's going to have down days. So is our career satisfaction, our physician satisfaction levels. Um, would you say that payer. And, and again it probably depends on states. It also depends on leadership. Who's the new leader in the area, what kind of culture do they have? We certainly see that in this space as well. Um, where you know. But would you say that those conversations with teammates and when you kind of look at that and you understand the history of this space, would you say that payer compliance or payer, um, you know, acceptance maybe even. I don't feel like that's not the right word but would you say, you know where I'm going with this. Is it getting better? Is it staying pretty much flatlined or is it getting worse?

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a really great question. Um, in, you know, in my opinion, I think it's a lot of what you're saying, right? It's, it's a, uh, it's never a straight line. I, um, do think in general it's getting better. Um, and I think part of it is just there's greater awareness of these type of models of care. And I think again, it kind of goes back to the fact that these types of models of care, you know, patients are pretty happy, uh, in them. And I think, uh, when you see that, um, you know, the, you know, payers or the health systems are also going to be excited about that. And so, you know, there's always going to be ups and downs. But, um, I think, think, you know, this is increasingly becoming an area that, that, uh, that is seeing some more acceptance.

Speaker G: All right, lightning round questions. We have three questions for you. Um, how is mdbip, uh, helping physicians exit or evaluate their practice or sell their practice? You've been around now for 25 years. There's probably those who have like, oh, yeah, remember them, like, so tell. Are you helping, Are you assisting with that? Again, you can be brief or long winded, but we have two more after this.

Speaker E: Yeah, to be brief, this is, you know, something where we're definitely focused on, um, I think again, we think about the life cycle of practices, uh, not just, uh, transitioning to this model, but also how you, uh, exit and leave a legacy. And so we want to help, uh, affiliate doctors do that.

Speaker G: Do I have to be an MDVIP currently affiliated physician in order to reach out, to say, I'm kind of wanting to get out, retire, uh, in order to maybe get a valuation or to look at selling or having the new member, the legacy member physician, take over that practice and maybe become one of those types of MDVIP affiliated physicians.

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a great question and, um, in full transparency, I don't know the full answer to that piece. In my brief time here, um, what I will say is we are really focused on helping first and foremost, uh, the folks that are in, in our model, um, to make sure that they have a good, good strategy.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker G: Wonderful. And our final question. Well, actually, two final ones. Your favorite book that you would recommend to physicians and colleagues.

Speaker E: Oh, uh, um, gosh, let me think. Um, so I think what, you know, what one book I've really liked is a book called Positive Intelligence. Um, and so just really focuses again on that sort of growth mindset piece. And um, I've read it now a couple times over the last couple years as I've come up, um, uh, uh, you know, in, in my, in my practice. And so I, I would encourage that as a, as a book.

Speaker G: Yeah, CMT releases it twice a year. Our summer reading list and our winter reading list and I would say eight out of every 10 of those titles are business books. They're entrepreneurial minded type of books. And I just love that because we, we take, you know, feedback from these interviews as well as our readers over the years. And I'm so encouraged by that because it means that, that they're trying to not change everything all in one day or uh, one moment, but they're making a small step and that's all it takes to be successful. Our final question for Dr. Lynn, he is now the chief medical officer at MDVIP. And we asked this of all of our guests at the end of the day, what do you want to be known for? Dr. Lynn?

Speaker E: Yeah, I think it comes back to, you know, those two things I mentioned at the very beginning. Um, the first is that you know, we've really championed or I've really helped champion a model where we're a lot more proactive about healthcare. Um, and so um, you know, we move from seeing um, a bunch of heart attacks to actually stopping them from ever happening. Um, and that's going to take a lot of work. Uh, and not just uh, you know, at mdvip, but across our health system. Um, and I think that's number one. And I think the second is really, um, to be able to say that, you know, we have a number of doctors who are independent and able to practice in the way that they want to, uh, practice but feel really connected to a community. Um, because I think that piece is so important to the motivation of doctors. Something that you love when you're training that you don't always get when you leave your training. I hope that I can play uh, my small part in encouraging that.

Speaker G: And ah, we'll put the links to how to connect with Dr. Lynn, how to connect with and learn more and get connected with MDVIP so that if you're interested, want to have a conversation, that's all, just have a conversation. I'm of the persuasion that every physician encountering the bumping into relationship personalized care models, you, you're just frustrated. Do your homework and talk with everybody so that you understand and you go into this space with eyes wide open so that on day it's a success and you feel like it's a success. Will everything work great? Probably not. But that's just life. And we all know that life is going to throw at us and has already thrown so much at you. All we want to do is, like you said, make it a little bit better. Thank you Dr. Lin, for being our guest today and I, uh, will talk with you soon.

Speaker E: Thanks so much, Michael. Such a pleasure.

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