71. How Europe can fight back!

Jonathan: Welcome to The Difference Engine, the show for tech founders, investors and innovators. So Paul, what have we got coming up today? Paul: We're lacing up our gloves in this Europe fights back episode, and we're stepping into the ring for Europe. Jonathan: Yeah, we'll explore where Europe can truly lead over the next five years and bring some clarity to the blurry lines of digital sovereignty right across the continent.

Paul: Before our first punch, let's set the record. Straight on why Europe has not missed tech. Jonathan: Hot on the heels of Christina CFA's. Compelling analysis in episode 69 of why the wrong people are so often charged with ensuring the success of European tech.

You might think that you're a, has missed tech, but think of it in a different way. It's only partially true if you define tech as being big tech. And that really means consumer apps and of course the data that goes with them. Paul: This is a hot topic, and just so you're clear, we believe Europe has not missed tech, um, as much as it's specialized.

Um, let's remember we pioneered commercial computing with the UK's Leo computer back in the fifties. Um, SAP span out of IBM in the seventies. But we do continue to dominate categories. Those categories where complexity, where regulation and physical systems matter.

Jonathan: Industrial deep tech is the clearest example. I mean, Netherlands, A SML alone reshapes the global semiconductor stack. Paul: Yeah. And, and it's not an accident that.

You know, Europe's good at this stuff. We, uh, have kept our specialism and our specialist manufacturing, even as others lost out. And, you know, as globalization kicked in, particularly in markets like microprocesses, in phone, handsets and laterally, uh, sadly in cars, the fact is engineers like to sit close to the action. They like to be close to the factories.

Um, that's different with code, but it's, it's not the same with manufacturing. Um, you can ask Elon Musk about that because that feedback loop. Doesn't exist in Silicon Valley. Uh, and the fact that Musk moved all of his space ventures to be together have proved the value, uh, of this model yet again.

Jonathan: Yeah. So broadly in this case, we can think about it in this way, I guess the, the US optimized for abstraction speed, uh, China optimized for scale. Um, and Europe optimized for precision. Paul: Yeah.

And that's why smart infrastructure and industrial software and automation firms like Siemens, uh, a, BB Dasso, they're global leaders, uh, and they build 50 year moats, not three year hypergrowth stories. Jonathan: Yeah. And you won't be surprised to know, I, I also think climate tech is another. Uh, area that people underestimate European power.

Paul: Yeah. In the us that, um, although we've just seen Mr. Trump does not agree that climate tech's got anything to tell us and has, uh, waived all sorts of, uh, protectionism, um, the idea of more regulation scares investors in the states, uh, in Europe, not so much. Uh, regulation can often create.

Or at least shape markets often. Um, you know, remember the best solutions can often come when there are restraints, uh, that are driving the design here. If we look at things like, you know, arguably carbon pricing, uh, grid rules, uh, emission targets, um, they all. Are constraints that demand innovation?

Jonathan: No, that, that's, that's for sure. And, and that's actually built firms like stead investors, Schneider, you know, and many more. A again, Europe treats climate as essential infrastructure, not a VC narrative. Paul: I mean, that's true, although you and I slightly disagree on this, we've had our fair share of failures, uh, particularly close to home.

Um, remember British Vault, uh, $3.8 billion Giga plant. Plan. Of course, every politician, uh, in the country wanted to be associated with that.

However, when it flipped and the job losses, um, were described in Te Crunch as, uh, as following British false bankruptcy is the death now for the UK's battery industry. Um, so you, you remember Swedish, Swedish? Actually battery manufacturer Norfolk filed for bankruptcy in Sweden in 2025 because it failed to secure the essential funding, both, you know, making a major setback for the European EV supply chain ambitions. Uh, in wider terms though, you're right, China manufactures at scale and we unfortunately, um, set the standards, um, the US.

Uh, does neither Its arrive late and it's paying the price. Jonathan: Yeah, and maybe the, maybe the lesson for Europe there is if you're gonna build a battery gigafactory, don't name it with the name of your country, followed by Volt, it seems to Paul: be, well, I give you British steel, I give you British rail, I give you British Airways. You're right. Jonathan: Yeah.

Paul: British Leland. Jonathan: Yeah, I think, I think we can have a whole, uh, episode on how, uh, a nationalization only turns sick industry into a dead one. Let's, let's move on from, uh, from this, uh, this little bit of doom and gloom. I mean, we can't really deny that FinTech is interesting, um, but not so much the consumer apps, although we've got a few unicorns there, but it's actually the infrastructure in which Europe excels.

Paul: Yeah. Um, PSD two, uh, and open banking has, uh, forced banks to open their APIs. Yeah. They didn't want to meanwhile, but they did.

Meanwhile, let's Jonathan: not Paul: forget, and that's painful. Financial system, but it's also burst some checks, businesses like, and really duct taping, FinTech, mon re cre, legacy core banking systems, and a lot of feisty fintechs playing, you know, all levels in the stack, uh, based around open banking platforms. And it, in this case, uh, it is regulation, but it's. Deregulation, um, you know, a, a a, a form of reducing the amount of regulation, keeping it, they were de taking it down, which has helped, um, deregulation.

Um, which unfortunately I think will agree is outta fashion in Europe right now. Uh, can be a powerful play. So it's dealt already with the complexity by default. Jonathan: Mm-hmm.

And as, as we've mentioned before, A-G-D-P-R, that's the general data Protection Regulation for those not familiar with it. And it is the toughest privacy and security protection law in the world. Um, it's been around since 2018 and it didn't kill innovation. It's spawned it concept management, identity verification, compliance, tooling.

All became products. Paul: Yeah. Uh, interestingly, uh, as far as I know, became big, uh, from a, uh, bubba betting shop in Dublin. God bless it.

Really? Yes. Uh, in the us, uh, of course, uh, regulation is anathema, certainly currently, and therefore, technology response is sporadic and reactive, short bursts of intense energy. Then regulation in China, though funnily enough.

Um, maybe not. So, uh, funny, uh, privacy is not their priority. Jonathan: Indeed. And, you know, Europe meanwhile turned trust into a technology advantage.

Now, I think you could argue that the issues facing the US big tech players in Europe, such as what data sovereignty finds for meta and especially Google, uh, the restriction on TikTok, scrolling algorithms, et cetera, they've all got their roots in the. Pretty strong stance taken during the development of GDPR. Paul: Yeah, indeed. And lots going on with that right now.

Um, fascinating to watch, um, mobility and automotive tech, yet another overlooked area of European excellence because, um. You know, people fixate on Tesla, but Europe dominates, uh, systems of safety, um, systems of, uh, integration of various parts of the buses in in, in vehicles and automotive, uh, software stacks. Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, companies like Bosch and Continental don't look sexy, but they quietly run global mobility, including providing the, the ties on, which I cycled to, to do this pod this morning.

Paul: Yeah. Europe leads where standards. Regulation, one could say common sense, but that would be stretching it. And hardware, softer hardware.

Software integration collide what they call it, ot. Jonathan: Yeah. And that's no better exemplified by by health tech and medical devices, which follow exactly the same pattern. Paul: Yeah.

Universal healthcare's, uh, systems. Create continuity of data and make new innovation much more validatable, if that's a word, but you can get validation much more easier. That's, that's gold for MedTech. Jonathan: Yeah, it is.

And, and, uh, there's also some other effects like the, the US private healthcare system is, is optimized for billing. That's always where you start your development. You China still needs we Western clinical credibility and is buying that in, for instance, you know, investing heavily in state-of-the-art, surgical robotics. Paul: Yeah.

So, uh, what is the meta problem here? So what is the meta problem that Europe has in all of this? Um, you know, patterns of light and shade. Jonathan: Yeah.

I think if you really wanna boil it down, Europe wins and builds category leaders where success requires, I guess, patience. Regulation and, and possibly most of all systems thinking. Paul: Yeah. And it loses and, and it just frankly can't compete with speed, where growth demands hype.

Uh, consumer virality, which seems to be all the rage right now. And, um, it doesn't love a winner takes all dynamic Europe builds that take that society's run on. Um, not really. The tech people scroll through.

Jonathan: Yeah. And exactly. And, and that distinction is gonna matter more and more over the next decade, uh, unless Christina K's revolution comes to pass. So I've been thinking a little bit recently about where Europe can lead in tech over the next five years, and what categories might it dominate.

We think we know where Europe has been, but if Europe's gonna lead in the next wave of tech, we can be pretty much certain. It's not gonna be by out scaling the US on foundation models or the Chinese are making lots of things. Paul: Europe is not likely to win. On raw compute.

I think that's fair to say at this point. Germany also faces some pretty strategic issues with power generation having, uh, cut its long held ties with Russian gas suppliers, which it was reliant on for many years. Um, and in AI Europe within categories where a AI actually gets deployed, so less of the inference and compute, more of the usage, which all starts. With a version of regulated ai.

Jonathan: Yeah, exactly. A responsible, auditable, trustworthy ai. And you know, where would you wanna find that? Well, perhaps in healthcare finance infrastructures defense.

Exactly. The places where move fast is a liability and break things is a definite no no. Paul: Yeah. Interestingly on defense, I, I've just noticed that the, um, Danish.

Uh, sovereignty Fund has focused on defense. Um, as we've said before, the eu, um, the EU AI Act and the much delayed, probably never gonna happen. UK AI Act scares startups, but it could also be seen as a bit of a moat. Um, maybe has the same pattern as GDPR, where Europe sets the rules for the, for the world and everyone, everyone else that fancies, you know, access to half a billion reasonably well off.

Customers ends up complying. And so over time, quality of product increases. Jonathan: Yes, indeed. And uh, industrial automation, I think is the next obvious next layer for ai.

Uh, Europe already owns the stack. Robotics sensors, control systems, and of course safety certification. Paul: I think it's a lot more nuanced, to be fair. Clearly just adding AI.

Isn't about just adding Microsoft's copilots. Sorry about that. Um, it's about uptime. It's about yield, energy efficiency.

Um, and failure can be very expensive as I think some of the, uh, large big tech US players are about to find out. So the bar is really high. Um, another consideration is the debate about whether we let us firms into the heart of our dataset. Um.

Controversially Palantir, um, has just gained access to the NHS and public sector, and I know from anecdotally from people I've been speaking to quite senior positions in the NHS, certain of the unions there are not allowing their workers to access systems. They believe Palantir's behind. Interestingly, uh, ground level revolt. Um, more recently it's just been announced without that much due diligence, some would argue no due diligence that it's won a 241 million pound UK Ministry of Defense contract.

Um, think that one might run and run. Jonathan: Yeah. Yes. Run and run and run and run.

So, I think, you know, summarizing this, in this case, the, the US does have the AI talent. Uh, China has the scale. Europe has the integration. Paul: Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, moving on to something that's literally a world apart, um, quantum. So quantum computing is a, you know, very, um, at the frontiers, a bleeding edge of technology.

Um. And it's not re not yet reached, I hope not the, the hype stage. It's more about, you know, sensible structure. How do we make sense of, of a vast, uh, emerging category.

Jonathan: Yeah. And, and the typically, Europe isn't racing for a general purpose quantum computer. It's focused on secure communication, sensing, and of course sovereign networks. Paul: Yeah.

And there are, um, UK players and, and other players across Europe. Um, a couple come to mind, um, which. Actually are focusing on the needs of buyers. Um, a lot of these align with defense currently and, um, you know, national resilience, et cetera.

Jonathan: Yeah. And, and somewhat connected to that. Energy is another area where Europe's Paul: CNI Jonathan: framing matters. Again, we we're going back to this basic theme is Europe treats energy is infrastructure.

Not a startup experiment, Paul: as we say, there's lots to play out. Uh, when we see, um, you know, who's left, uh, with their pants on. Once the tide goes out in the us AI fundraising more prosaically here. We, we do things like carbon pricing.

We have, um, cross border, um. Grids and, and, and interconnect connectors. Um, we've done some real innovation, um, you know, grid software, hydrogen, uh, power fusion storage system level thinking, the, the sort of, um, ground up stuff. Jonathan: Yeah.

And increasingly what we're seeing is that China's building the hardware, but Europe is orchestrating the system, Paul: the orchestration layer. Uh, is important, but let's not forget, we also do base, uh, research, you know, materials like graphene and batteries. They don't get enough attention, um, because everybody's obsessed with the now characters at the, everybody knows who the AI players are and who the founders are. Uh, but because these, um.

These early or, or more fundamental basic science projects are slow to market and they're research heavy, you know, they don't get the spotlight. Uh, and that's helpful for, um, you know, aggressive nation states. There are persistent rumors of, of, uh, espionage by, um, Chinese students and others, uh, around these cutting edge technologies. Uh, graphene famously invented in.

Uh, university of Manchester or, or, or both of our alma masters. And it was, uh, it's disappointing for instance, um, to see the UK's only recently admitted, uh, that this was an issue. An MI five, um, just very recently has briefed or universities that. Maybe there's some espionage going on.

Jonathan: Yeah. And, and you know what, why, why would that be the case? Well, Europe is good at deep research Paul: matters. Jonathan: Yeah, yeah.

Stuff with long timelines. Public private funding and industrial pull. Paul: Yeah. That's, that's how you get real breakthroughs.

Not 10 companies all demoing very similar tech. Jonathan: Yeah, sure. And, and the defense tech, um, unsurprisingly, is an area that's, that's clearly shifted and, and broadly that's gone from, you know, big heavy hardware to autonomous software defined systems. Paul: Yeah.

Uh, sadly for us all, a lot of the proving ground of this is. In Europe. But, um, Europe's advantage is definitely, uh, interoperability that was forced by the NATO standards, uh, by compliance issues and the fact that all of oil markets were at one point, uh, you know, working freely together. This is a lot less flashy than, um, Silicon Valley, but it's much more deployable.

And we know this from our work with, um, the secure communications. Firm element. And they have built on the Matrix standard, which is a global open standard that is adopted now by, uh, several, uh, armed forces across Europe. And of course, Mr.

Ms. Y Macron has recently talked, uh, about, um, using exactly this tech. Um, so the matrix open standard to discontinue Europe's reliance on, you know, American Zoom and, and the frankly godawful teams from Microsoft. Jonathan: Yeah, Harrah, we can all agree on that.

Um, and moving on though, I think supercomputing is, is another misunderstood area. Um, but Europe definitely isn't trying to be AWS Paul: Yeah, it's building. We hope. Uh, sovereign capabilities, um, you know, ai, na native compute for research and industry purpose-built infrastructure early days, but we'll see, not mass market.

Sell as much as you can. Pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap cloud infrastructure, or should I say pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap until you have a captive market. And then. Ramp your cross up.

Um, this is a different game that Europe's playing. Jonathan: Yeah. And I also think digital twins feel like Europe's home turf, you know, simulation, cad, PLM Europe already dominates there. Paul: Yeah, oddly.

Yeah. Uh, and AI just comes into these systems and makes them more dynamic. Uh, but it's detailed work, right? Realtime factories, you know, smart cities, um, smart grids.

These are about decisions. Not superficial visuals. Jonathan: Yeah, exactly. So spatial computing without the consumer height.

Paul: So, uh, the, another area we could be proud of biotech, um, is quietly following the same pan. Uh, given we have reservations about letting us, uh, data firms hoover up all of our national health data. We talked about that previously. Uh, the US.

Uh, obviously, uh, spends the most on healthcare with arguably less good results, but it also leads very much on the investment on the capital markets. Europe leads on, um, validation of, uh, innovation of, of solutions and deployment. Jonathan: Yeah, and, and I think, you know, one of the advantages Europe has is, is universal healthcare systems actually help in, in, in, in this and, you know, longitudinal data, regulation aware innovation. It's really hard to copy.

Paul: Yeah. But it might be easy to cut and paste. And that's the wor that's the worry if we keep allowing us and other based companies, uh, who are frankly are data leches to leach out our healthcare, universal healthcare data that we built up. Um, you know, with a sort of notion it could be valuable for decades and now it turns out to be gold.

Um, there's some pretty, uh, long running and deep data records in the UK's NHS, possibly the best in the world. Um. And so, yeah, maybe more positively if we can get to grips with that issue. We can look at autonomy and robotics, not consumer robots infrastructure, you know, B2B robots.

Jonathan: Yeah, sort of in logistics, agriculture. We've seen some early startups there. You know, defense ports, different systems that must operate. Again, Europe's really good at this safely.

In the real world. Yeah. Paul: So, uh, the common thread here is, is obvious. It's, it's about, um, certification.

Maybe that's a better way of saying regulation, certification for safety reasons, and integration. Jonathan: Europe leads where, where tech has to be trusted, regulated, integrated. And maintained for decades. Paul: Yeah.

I I, I'm sorry to announce it, but in case you haven't guessed, Europe's not going to dominate social networks, uh, or, um, the ad driven world of, uh, attention, the attention economy that we've seen the US and now China dominate in terms of ad tech and um, social media, but. We can dominate in the, uh, less glamorous, if you will, fundamental systems that economies rely on. And we do need to be aware of the creeping threat of what is now at least it looks like a perceiving, a seemingly less friendly US regime in power.

Jonathan: Yeah. So Europe should be about core capability. Durable leadership. Very old school.

Not at all. Shouty, very European. Paul: Carry on. Jonathan: So in deference to our brothers and sisters across LA Launch, um, you know, this section I think we're gonna call.

Shows, so pardon our French, which frankly for us is usually a euphemism for swearing. But what's fascinating right now in Europe is how everyone keeps going on about digital sovereignty. But when you look closely, they mean wildly different things. By that term.

Paul: Yeah. I'm very disappointed with, um, the Online Safety Act, as I've said before here in the uk and the, you know, several of these European directives seem, uh, ill judged. Uh, it's not surprisingly given our cultural and industrial history, which we should be reasonably proud of, that the UK and France are almost textbook opposites. They share anxiety about, uh, foreigners, but mainly, uh, us.

Uh, folks, uh, they, they, you know, we've all watched the tech dominance of the us but we've got totally different responses. Jonathan: Recent weeks have thrown up a classic example of different forms of deism. Uh, yeah. Presumably like entrepreneur concept that a certain past years president might have thought the French.

Don't have a word for it. Paul: You might have thought that. Bigly. Bigly.

Yeah. Jonathan: So, well, why don't we just take the UK first. Now, for those of you not familiar with England in particular. Um, in South Yorkshire is a town called Barnsley.

Paul: Hold Jonathan: on, uh, Paul: Barnsley Jonathan: Barnsley. Um, for those of us from the west of the Pennines, that's quite difficult to pronounce, but those of you from east of the Pennines, it's your territory Anyway. Uh. Barnsley is famous for three things by, by my reckoning, um, professionally being in Yorkshire, uh, a former mining center, and the birthplace of iconic Chacho host Michael Parkinson.

Anyway, Barnsley has become the first of the UK's. Tech towns, um, uh, 40 years too late in our opinion. But, um, this is a classic piece of British pragmatism. Okay?

So in this case, the UK government isn't saying, let's replace American platforms. It's saying let's use the industry, industry standard category leading tools available and see how far we can push 'em. Paul: Good look with that, that, I mean, that basically means Microsoft, Google, I guess, you know, Cisco. Adobe a push.

These are all the us uh, hyperscalers, uh, and they're all deeply embedded already despite efforts to remove them. Um, we've talked before about Macron trying now, um, into UK government. Um, and so the UK's, again, pragmatically taking investment directly from the SA, um, most recently with a 31 billion US UK tech prosperity deal. Is that real?

Um, which is actually integrating. All of this infrastructure, infrastructure more heavily, uh, into our, um, government and, and our, our society, hopefully, uh, to produce some benefits. Jonathan: Hmm. Well, how sovereign is that?

I mean, Barnsley, their experiment is really about applying AI in everyday life led by a council, trying to create an economy for barley that is, is more than just. State benefits dependent. Um, you know, it's gonna be a kickstart that includes free digital training for residents, AI adoption for local businesses, imagined productivity gains in healthcare and education. I mean, it's, it's very outcomes and, and frankly, party politically led.

Paul: Right? Um, not sure the sovereignty angle here in the UK is softer. It's more about capability than control. Um, if communities or workers.

Are taught or know how to use ai, then the councils can de deploy it effectively. Uh, and if not, they can't. Um, just this week I was speaking to, uh, one of, uh, our largest vendors, uh, and having a conversation where somebody spent literally an hour teaching me how to use a quite obscure set of controls in their software. My response was.

Why don't you just put an AI interface on this and I wouldn't need to learn to program your goddamn program. So there's a lot, a long way to go with this. Um, but if we can get it right, we can imagine that there'd be productivity gains in healthcare, in education to the largest budget items on the uk, uh, agenda. Uh, and it would become very outcomes.

Um, and maybe party politically led. Jonathan: France hears the same global signal. And it's about dependency risk. Cloud outages, geopolitics, and goes, Hmm, we're gonna build our own.

Paul: So that's a vision and it's a strong statement. And, um, whatever you think, uh, about France, uh, they do have a good record of long-term vision. Um, yeah. We've seen this, um, ambition to replace Microsoft Teams WebEx and Zoom across all governments by 2027.

I mean, I wanna see it. Um, that's not a pilot though. They're pretty serious. That's.

Industrial policy and talking about pilots. Uh, the French, the only European, uh. Country that could produce fighter aircraft all on their own, uh, as they have previous, uh, in this approach. And let's not forget La Concord.

Jonathan: It's not just video conferencing that the, uh, the French government want to replace this system. This, this movement called Vizio sits in the whole suite, numeric vision replacing Gmail. Slack, you know, all the invisible plumbing of public sector work. Paul: Yeah.

And yeah, hats off, right? Because all of that will be, uh, open source, which is, you know, that was the solution, uh, looking for a problem that I think, uh, is coming together quite nicely. And what I love from this, from a category. Design perspective is how explicit, uh, the French have been about sovereignty, meaning ownership of the stack, um, you know, French built software, um, such as, um, you know, the French AI startup for transcription, um, you know, French, uh, sovereign Cloud, uh, via Outscale and Dasso systems.

Um, we've seen a bunch of this stuff. You know, they, they do have, um, their own data centers that can run ai. Um, without their, to their data ever touching us owned carriers originally, maybe for GDPR, but certainly, uh, it's now looking like a smart move. And so, um, they're avoiding the entire set of regulations that is the, you know, land grab called the US Cloud Act, Jonathan: that that's a very different risk model.

The US worries about falling behind France, worries about losing control, and because of this, they're optimizing for different futures, Paul: right? So Barnes Lee's partnership with. Uh, US firms is about speed and scale, uh, and testing AI in the real world. You know, learn fast, don't reinvent the wheel.

Um, even if the UK could. Uh, in if it wanted to in any case. Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.

And, but France is clearly willing to move slower if it means long-term autonomy. Even the cost narrative is interesting. They're framing Visio, the, the macro system as cheaper over time. Saving 1 million Euro per a hundred thousand users annually.

Paul: I, I think that's very conservative. I'm sure they could do a lot better if they get this right. Uh, there's a subtext here of, uh, surveillance and resilience. Um.

We also recently the US Cloud outages, uh, last year. And suddenly then sovereignty becomes a lot less abstract. It's about what happens if the service just. Is not there anymore.

Jonathan: Yeah, exactly. And, and this is where Europe splits culturally, you know, the UK is still very atlanticist in tech, happy to co-create with the US platforms as long as there's a local benefit. Paul: Yeah. And France on the other hand, um, you know, fiercely, uh, protects its digital infrastructure like energy or defense.

They wouldn't outsource nuclear power or another. Uh, to another country, uh, unlike, uh, the, maybe their, their German friends. Um, so why would they outsource government communications? That doesn't make logical sense either.

The UK as we have, um, talked about, has much fewer car qualms when it comes to, uh, that, which is why, uh, we had to ask the Chinese to politely leave, uh, their Huawei infrastructure out of our, um, not sure it's all out or telecoms infrastructure and, um. I'm still unsure why the Chinese folks are helping us build a nuclear reactor. Jonathan: Yes, indeed. What what's interesting in in all of this is that, I guess it can be argued that neither approaches inverted comms.

Right? You know, Barnsley could become a blueprint for AI enabled towns globally. F France could become the blueprint for sovereign digital ecosystems. Paul: Yeah.

And I think, um. Particularly Europe, but maybe the rest of the world is looking at these, uh, two models, uh, whether ours traditionally align with the us uh, until recently or, and, uh, perhaps even more recently. Um, looking to China, we've just had OPM visit there. Of course, um, countries in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, they're all asking the very same question.

Uh, and some of them have taken very big loans that are gonna want paying back, so maybe not. Being as free to, um, to choose. So I guess the question boils down to, do we plug in or do we build, Jonathan: right? So that's the real tension of this moment.

Digital sovereignty isn't just one strategy, it's a spectrum. The UK sits at one end, attract the big players, leverage global platforms. Build skills locally. Paul: Yeah.

And France on the other hand is replace, uh, localize control. And between these two is where the next decade of tech policy is gonna get. Really interesting. Jonathan: Yeah.

Honestly, this is category design at Nation State Scale. Paul: Exactly. It's the same problem space, uh, totally different value propositions. Jonathan: Thank you for listening.

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