Build, Grow & Transact: $3.5B Cyndeo on Thinking Like a $25B Firm

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today's episode is Build, grow and transact. $3.5 billion Cindio I'm thinking like a 25 billion dollar firm. It's a conversation with Matt Kilgrove, President and CEO of Cindio Wealth Partners. I'm, um, Louis diamond and this is the diamond podcast for financial advisors.

Speaker B: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that's at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we've guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more. Who change Firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships. Starting as your strategic partner well before you're even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they're headed? Our transition Going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It's the award winning data driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm's appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy@diamond-consultants.com transitionreport.

Speaker A: When advisors leave a wirehouse, the conversation usually centers on, um, the transition itself. What gets discussed less often is what comes next. At some point, the challenge shifts from building a firm to scaling one. The questions become different. How do you continue growing? How do you attract talent? When does outside capital become part of the conversation? And what does it take to build an enterprise that's capable of becoming something far larger its founders originally imagined? That's exactly why I wanted to reconnect with Matt Kilgro, President and CEO of Cindio Wealth Partners. When Matt was first on our podcast back in 2021. Cindio is a newly launched independent firm that left UBS with a 13 person team and roughly 1.2 billion in client assets during the uncertainty of 2020. Today, the firm oversees approximately 3 1/2 billion and has grown in ways that simply wouldn't have been possible. And inside a traditional wirehouse structure, as part of our Build, Grow and Transact series, we're exploring what happens after independence becomes reality. Not just how firms are built, but how they're scaled, capitalized and positioned for the future. Matt shares the decisions that fueled Cindy's growth. Why the firm chose to bring on Joe Duran's rise as a capital partner and how he's thinking about the path from three and a half billion to 25 billion. He talks about what it really takes to serve their niche client base of sports and entertainment professionals, and why it never would have been possible in the wirehouse. More importantly, he offers a candid look at, uh, what changes when advisors stop thinking about building a practice and start thinking about building an enterprise. Sure, this is a conversation about growth, but it's really a conversation about ambition, scale and what's required to create something built to last and keeping the focus on the evolution from independence to enterprise building rather than simply celebrating asset growth. So let's get to it. Matt, thank you for coming on our show again.

Speaker C: Oh, it's great to be here, Louis. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: A lot's changed since we first had you on. I think it was like right in the middle of the pandemic, maybe right after. And that's what we're most excited to talk about today. But maybe set the table for folks that didn't have the privilege of listening to your first episode and may not be familiar with Cindio or your team and its origins from Merrill and ubs. Maybe just give us the origin story. So I know when we first interviewed you, you had a 13 person team. You had left UBS in the middle of the pandemic, had, uh, about 1.2 billion in assets, and you were really just getting rolling in your life cycle as an independent business. So maybe just back up the tape and give us the origin story, if you don't mind.

Speaker C: Yeah, of course. I started in the business in 1991 at Merrill Edge, been here in St. Petersburg, Florida the entire time. Built and grew a team within Merrill lynch, had great years there, was there for 21 years. In 2012, my partners and I moved the team over to UBS and we were there for eight, continued to grow the team and both from a client, uh, standpoint as well as advisors and the personnel on the team. And then in 2020, we launched our, our own firm, Ascendio Wealth Partners. Couple funny anecdotes around Covid. I mean, we made the decision to go independent in the fall of 2019. I know you were there and part of that, so thank you. But then literally a week and a half before COVID hit, we signed a lease on a, uh, on a nice office build out. So a little bit nerve wracking when the COVID hit, but we drove through it and we uh, ended up Launching in June of 2020 and had a very successful transition. We just didn't let anything stop us. I do like to brag a little bit. It took us 60 days to get over a billion dollars transition.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: And I do have to say that was non prot. And it was also pre electronic. So we did it all with paper. Pretty proud about that with the team. We did a great job.

Speaker A: You should be. I honestly think if. If every advisor had confidence that it would happen the way it happened for you, I know my job would be easier. I think a lot of advisors would be in motion in a very different way. I think if I remember, you told me that you moved over 98% of your book when you transitioned from UBS. So I mean, that's an incredible achievement. Heard about the pace, just the fact that you pretty much brought everything over. But looking back on that, what do you think that amazing retention number says about the relationships you'd built at ubs? And what did the transition teach you about your clients that maybe you didn't already know?

Speaker C: That's a good question, Louis. The biggest thing that it reinforced, I don't know that it taught me because I think we already felt it, but it reinforced that we have terrific relationships with our clients and we're really blessed. I mean, we've got some clients that have been with us 30 years and we've got clients that had just joined us. I mean that that was one of the interesting things about the transition. And so I think that what we, if I had to sum it up and what we learned is that the relationships with our clients is what this firm and this business is all about. And I wouldn't say that it was fun to do the transition. Anybody that ever tells you that a transition is fun, you might want to question them. But it was very rewarding. And I think that the response and the way some of our clients acted and the excitement that they had that we were doing something on our own was tremendous. In fact, we had a number of clients that said it's about time. I'm really glad you guys are doing this. So, yeah, again, I can't reinforce enough that the relationships with the clients is everything for us.

Speaker A: Amazing. Two follow up questions from what you said. First one, and I should ask that after your comment about your transition. What was it, if you think back to those chaotic 60 days during the transition that you think set your team up to execute that quickly, especially with all paper non docusign transition, like what was the learning or something you would impart on someone who's considering doing the

Speaker C: same, you have to be all in on it. One of my partners, Pete Francis, for example, lives in Lakeland, which is about an hour away from St. Petersburg. Uh, he pretty much moved over to St. Pete and lived in a motel for a week or two. It's just all hands on deck all the time. And I tell the story. It is funny. We launched on June 12th and we were going hard. We had worked seven days a week going up to the 4th of July weekend. And I remember that the Fidelity folks wanted to take some of the weekend off. And I had to calm myself down and say, okay, all right, it is fourth of July. We can pause a little bit. But I think that's the biggest thing is just recognizing that it's going to be a short period of your life. But we were just so dead set on getting it done. And I think part of that was client driven because we know how important it is to the clients that their money and that their entities and that their flow and that their payments, uh, that they do it was all being taken care of. That was a big part of the driver, is that we didn't want any client to feel like they were left out in the cold there.

Speaker A: Makes sense. I really like the way that you frame the transition. Like, like you said, someone essentially has to get their head checked if they thought a transition was fun. But I think what people often miss is the fact that it could be rewarding. Like it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom and backbreaking work. Like, ultimately, you make a proactive decision, you're transitioning, uprooting your team, your clients, your own life by choice. So keeping in mind that it could be rewarding and that it could be exhilarating, or it could even be a recharge. I've seen it as that as well. A very useful frame. You also mentioned that there's a lot of excitement from your client base about this move. I would think if I was a client and you called me up and was like, hey, Lewis, it's Matt, you've left ubs. Now it's time to, to move your assets. I know it's non protocol, so you probably said something different, but that doesn't seem like there'd be that much excitement around it. Like, why do you think this move in particular, uh, there's energy and excitement around it.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I think it's evidence as to the depth of the relationships that we have with the clients. Right. They care about us as people. They don't really see us as service providers. I mean, I think that they see us as a part of their world. And it's corny, but I'll say part of their family. And so they were excited for our next venture. And I think that one of the other things that we noticed when we made this change and we went to independence is that other people who were not maybe our clients, but were in our community, when they saw that we did this, a number of them came to us and wanted to be involved, wanted to become clients all of a sudden, even though they hadn't been somebody that we were pursuing. And by the way, most of them were business owners themselves. So there's something that separates you in the client's mind, particularly if they are business oriented or if they own their own business. Because when you join their ranks as a business owner, there's like a, uh, kindred spirit that that comes across. And so I think that was a big part of it. And frankly, the depth of the relationships that we have with clients. I would have been disappointed if some of them were upset with us that we were making this change and that it was going to tax them in some way. In fairness, I mean, we did everything we could to make it painless for them. But that's not to say that there wasn't disruption. There was, and there is, but I think it's just a credit to the depth of the relationships that we have with our clients.

Speaker A: Very cool. For you, it sounded like was a, uh, business development or prospecting tool. I'm sure that's not why you did it, but it sounds like a happy coincidence or it's not the first time I've heard that either. Just that it's almost like, like a business owner fraternity. And people are going to gravitate and look at you in a different light when they see that you've made the entrepreneurial jump. Just like they had earlier in their careers.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: So let's jump ahead to where Cyndio is today. 3.1 billion. From an article I saw recently, probably more than that now. 15 advisors, offices in St. Pete, Florida. Lake Mary, Florida, clients in 40 states. Give us what the firm looks like now versus what you imagined when you launched. I mean, aside from the growth, which is incredible. Like, what's changed about the firm that is different from what you envisioned or planned for when you launched the firm?

Speaker C: Well, I'll update the numbers for you. 3.5 billion. I had to check. There we go. Before we did this. Yeah. And we've got 30 employees. And 13 advisors. So I would say that the growth has been, has far exceeded what we expected or what we would have been planning for. Not that we didn't think that it would be great, but I think maybe it's happened a little faster than we thought. I think coming into the launch there were a handful of things that we thought could and would happen. I think that we believed that our organic growth would continue. I think we felt like we had a really good basis for growing the sports and entertainment business. And what has surprised me, but also excited me is the growing from 11 people to 30 people over that six years. And I have to tell you, being I'm um, in the latter part of my career, quite obviously having been doing this already 35 years, it's really cool to see young people moving along in their careers and really growing and, and having success. And the opportunity to give younger people jobs and opportunities at careers really just excites me. I can't say that enough going into launch. I think that we felt like we would be able to recruit and that we would be able to add advisors, but no one ever knows that was something that we had not done. So having had some success there has been rewarding as it's not easy. Recruiting advisors is not an easy thing, but we've been able to do it and I think that the ones that have joined us are very happy and that, that excites me as well.

Speaker A: We'll double click into the, the growth and I'm sure everyone's sitting at the edge of their seat wanting to hear and learn more. But I'm curious, in growing from 11 team members at UBS to 30 now five years later, how does the org chart changed? What are the roles that you hired into? What does the complexion of Cindia look like now different from when you're at ubs?

Speaker C: The biggest changes I guess have been on the operational side. Dave LaCour, when we were at UBS was had a title of team administrator. So he was the operational quarterback if you will. His development and growth in our firm has been very rewarding. He's a guy that we hired in 2006 and his ascension has been fun to watch. He's now, he's our CEO and doing an amazing job. We've added uh, an operations associate and Brandy Francis and she's doing great. And I'd say from an uh, operational standpoint, the other positions that we have added that were different than at ubs and this speaks to the growth is we have added to actually just added a Third client experience specialists. And in essence, what they are is onboarding people. Their whole job is to help onboard new clients. So if that is something that the firm and the business is demanding, that we need that kind of help, it tells you something about what the organic growth is looking like. And I give Dave tons of credit for that. He identified that if we could take the onboarding process off of the plates of our relationship managers or CA CSAs, different names and different entities, if we could do that, it would allow them to deepen the relationships with the clients. And so I think when I think about the changes, those are the biggest ones. Obviously we've added advisors, obviously we've added additional relationship managers as those advisors are growing. But operally, those are probably the biggest shifts.

Speaker A: Great. That's very helpful context. So on the growth side, can you point to one or two things that have really moved the needle the most? I mean, obviously you were, you and the team, you were very successful at Merrill, then at UBS, I mean, growing up, 1.2 billion. Pretty much every advisor would kill for that type of growth in business. But I mean, a triple in five years is remarkable, even with a, uh, bull market, et cetera. So, like, what can you point to that that's really moved the needle as far as your growth rate?

Speaker C: I think it's a handful of niche markets that we are working in and serving. The fastest growing niches are definitely the work that we do with business owners, uh, who are selling, either either selling their business or selling parts of their business, which are creating liquidity events. That's a huge driver of the growth. We're fortunate to be in Florida, where real estate has obviously continued to grow in value. And we have a lot of clients who own a lot of real estate, actually agricultural real estate originally, and now it's developing into additional very valuable real estate. And then the third one, of course, that everyone wants to talk about is the sports and entertainment segment. So the growth rate there has been tremendous as well. I think it's also a focus. We talk about it. You only get results on things that you focus on. And there's no question that our advisors are focused on performing at a high level and growing their practices at a fast pace.

Speaker A: Amazing. You definitely beat me to the punch. I did want to ask you specifically about the. I think it's called CW Boss, your division that serves NBA and NFL players. So how did that division or focus really develop, and what do you think it takes to really serve that client segment? Well, because I feel like this industry is Littered with bodies of folks that have attempted to crack into the sports world just to find that either it's the margins aren't high enough. It's impossible to kind of get through the agents and the players associations and, and business managers. So what's been the way that you've been able to really build and cultivate a focus on athletes?

Speaker C: Well, the vast majority of the credit for that has to go to Adam Hess and Nate Johnson and then also Scott Grouch. And I'll talk about each of them in a minute. But I think it's also important to note that there's an athletic at Cindio. I was a college basketball player and had always had some athletes as clients, but never focused on it as a. Just the main business that I wanted to work in when I talk about the athletic DNA. So there's 30 people at Cindio. 10 of them played college sports. It's not a requirement to join cindyo. But it, it just so happens that that's been something that, that has evolved and I think that how has that grown so fast? Well, the three people that, that worked in that the most really. Adam, he played professional overseas for 13 or 14 years. Nate Johnson was a college athlete. We got to know each other playing basketball. And Scott Crouch played football, he was a quarterback. And he really focuses on the NFL at this point. But I think one of the main keys to the growth rate that we've seen in that business has been the separation of what we would call the business management part for the athletes. And about four years ago, Nate Johnson departed Cindio and created a uh, family office business management type firm. It's called Ting44. And what we essentially did there was we separated the day to day bill paying concierge type services. I mean think about an athlete or an NBA guy or an NFL guy who gets drafted. They're usually very young and now they have to move to a new town. There's a lot of logistics that have to happen there. And Nate has built that business and we have utilized it with CW Boss. He and Adam have a great relationship and I couldn't be more proud of them. I will brag a little bit. I think that my numbers may be rough, but close to 10% of the NBA players are clients of Cindy O. And C.W. boss.

Speaker A: That's cool.

Speaker C: And 60 NFL players, either current or retired NFL players. So that piece of the business has really grown and I think we're just scratching the surface with what can happen there. I think there'll be other Sports that we can get into. We do have a smattering of baseball and tennis, but those are some things that I think can continue to grow at a quick rate. I do have to say, to be successful, and this is part back to some of your question to the audience out there. To be successful in that business, in that niche, you have to live in it. Nate and Adam know everything about the NBA benefits packages and the. All the different things that need to happen to. To be successful in the planning for NBA. And then Scott Crouch is the same way on the NFL side. He knows that, uh, what it's like and what the benefits packages look like and how to navigate them. I think that you have to live in that world and you have to speak their language, and our guys do it tremendously well.

Speaker A: Well said. Yeah. I remember during your transition, you were courting or dating with Adam, um, and Nate, and we're, like, really excited about the opportunity to figure out a way, hopefully to bring them on board once you launch the business. Do you think you would have had the ability to grow a meaningful sports entertainment business if you stayed at ubs?

Speaker C: No. I apologize for laughing, but it really is. You can't work in those niches and not be a fiduciary. One of the big things that we see with the athletes is they have more private offerings, more businesses that friends or associates want them to invest in than any other segment that, that we deal with or see. And if you're sitting at Merrill lynch or UBS or Morgan Stanley, how can you really evaluate those? You just can't. And if you do, if you put anything out there that is a jud or a, an endorsement of a private investment, like that's not affiliated with the firm you're with, it's a fireable offense. There's no question that the setup and the way that it's been built and positioned was not going to happen at a wirehouse.

Speaker A: Yeah, Makes sense. One more question just on, um, we'll say, like, the earlier years, and then we'll get into your decision to raise capital recently. But when you launched the business, and even to this day, Dynasty Financial Partners was your chosen infrastructure partner, call it St. Pete, neighbors, et cetera. I think they also took a minority equity stake in Cyndia when it launched as well. So I'm curious, now that the firm is rocking and rolling, you're well through the transition. Um, it's a booming enterprise. How do you work with Dynasty now differently from when you transitioned?

Speaker C: Well, the Dynasty relationship has been integral to our Launch. It's been super important to our growth. I've said it publicly before and I'll say it again. Cheryl Penney has done and fulfilled everything that he said he was going to do. And some of it was prediction, right? Like telling us what he thought we could do. But that's really cool to have seen unfold the way it has. I mean, everything that he said that we would do and can do, we have done and not that he stopped and said we're done. That's been terrific. I think Dynasty, as a partner for a firm that is looking to launch out of a wirehouse is a great choice. In fact, to me it's like the most no brainer choice unless you're going to just do it all yourself. They were terrific in helping with that transition to be successful. And then post transition, as we have continued to grow, the various elements that we've used them with and for go really deep and we can talk about all the things that they do on paper. There's that we use them for the ocfo. They do our billing and our books and records. They help us with compliance, all of that stuff. But as much as anything, I think what they do is they serve as a conduit to the independent world. Because when you launch out of a wirehouse, I mean, I spent 29 years at the wirehouse. That was my world. And so now you're out and the whole world is open to you. Where do you start? How do you pursue all these things? And by the way, I'm still a financial advisor, so I'm still working with clients. I don't have all the time in the world. I've got to hone it down. So I think the relationship and the consultative nature of what we do with Dynasty is super important and has been a big catalyst in terms of our growth.

Speaker A: Amazing. Excellent to hear. So this new subseries that uh, you're a part of, Build Grow transactions, that's. That'll be the focus of the, of the rest of our conversation, if you don't mind. So In March of 2026, it was announced that Joe Duran of United Capital fame and his private equity firm Rise Growth Partners took a minority stake in Cindia, which was big news given your growth. The firm was healthy, you guys are rocking and rolling. What was the honest answer to why sell capital now and why at all?

Speaker C: I think there are multiple reasons as to why to look at a transaction. Uh, and some of it began with the forward thinking of what does succession look like? How will the older guys at the firm, like Matt and Pete Francis and a few others, how will they eventually exit? And we have a great group of young advisors and other employees here at Cindio, including my own son, Kent Kilgrove, who obviously, whenever I'm done, I'm going to want him to be in a position to be, uh, an advisor at a firm that he wants to be at. Right. And not that it's just about him, but it's about everybody at Cindio. And so as we thought about succession, we don't want it to be a cliff where just all of a sudden we just sell the firm and Matt and Pete ride off into the sunset and leave everybody else trying to figure things out. That's part of why we decided to run a process and find the right partner for ourselves. Partially to take some chips off the table for the initial partners in the firm, but also to position ourselves for the next stage of growth. You mentioned Joe Duran. His reputation precedes himself. I mean, he has built and grown multiple huge businesses. And so to some extent we felt like what we were getting there was a cheat code in terms of how to go from 3 to 25 billion. That's a big part of what, what we did. I think that they also as, uh, having them as a capital partner allows us to be able to put the inorganic side of the growth engine to work even stronger than it was. I am very proud of the fact that we had recruited successfully and transitioned, uh, advisors from other wirehouses. Very proud of that. Having rise in our corner now, I think gives us an ability to take that to the next level.

Speaker A: Very interesting. What was your criteria, thinking back to your process when you were considering and were open to bringing on a capital partner, like what were you looking for in that entity or in that sponsor? And did it ever dawn on you, whether pre process or during it, that, uh, why don't we sell the whole thing and sell to a strategic versus selling a minority stake to a sponsor?

Speaker C: Well, we had the opportunity for both, let's be clear. And some of the strategics came to the fold relatively quickly. I and the rest of the partners realized that we're not done. We weren't ready for that. And we wanted to continue to run it and go at it ourselves, but potentially with a minority partner, as far as criteria, once we made that decision, okay, we're not going to go strategic, we're looking for a minority partner. Quite frankly, we had to feel like they understood us. And when I say that there are a lot of Opportunities out there in the minority investment space that are. They're great people, don't get me wrong. But they're financial buyers. And I'm not saying that Rise, uh, to some extent, and Rise and Joe Duran are to some extent a financial buyer, but they're wealth management people. They understand me and they understand our advisors. They spoke a different language. And one of the values here at Cindio is simplicity. We try to keep things simple. That was a big part of what we saw in the Rise, The Rise partnership was the ability to be with people who had spent their careers in wealth management. And Joe, I know Joe is the face, but he has a number of talented people. Terry is wonderful, a number of them. And they've been in wealth management their whole careers. So we could see them partnering with us, we could see us being able to communicate and them understand what wealth management is about, understand that the client is first. That was a big part of the criteria as to why Rise ended up rising to the dot. No pun intended.

Speaker A: There we go. Now it makes complete sense. I mean, given the size and impressive nature of your firm. I mean, I'm sure people were coming out of the woodwork to buy equity in Cindio. So it oftentimes, it almost always. It's never a problem of how do you find capital, or is there enough of it to go around. It's more how do we parse through not just the, uh, offers and the multiples, but who do we want to go to battle with? Who's, like you said, who's going to understand us, who's going to be a partner to us, who's going to take us to the next level? Because I have to imagine too, I mean, in the back of your head, probably in the back of your head, the front of your head going into this was we got a good thing going. We're loving our independence and calling the shots and being beholden to no one but our team, ourselves and our clients. How did you weigh the trade off from a governance and control standpoint of now having a new equity partner, someone pretty significant and vocal in your cap table?

Speaker C: Well, I go back to the fact that they're wealth management people. And Joe Duran, Uh, I met him originally back in 2009. In fact, I don't know if I've ever told you that, but we looked at joining United Capital before we left Merrill lynch, got to know Joe, liked him. Um, just wasn't the right time for us to for with United Capital. But the comfort level with him, and as we went through this process. And by the way, I have to shout out to Dynasty's investment banking team who ran the process for us. They did a terrific job. Sam Anderson headed that process for us. I think that a big part of what we were seeing as we went through the process was the communication and the description of, oh, how would we handle this? Or how would we handle that? And it is a minority transaction. We are still fully in control. There's a board, and Rise has one seat. So we did look at a lot of the governance issues, and really the things that Rise wanted to have a say in or wanted to have consent rights on were all things that, as a partner, I'd want them to anyway. So I've said to others, what's the big shift? Because I've been asked, what's the big shift for me as the CEO? And I really don't feel that there's this big shift, because I've always had partners, and I've never really gone down a path of, hey, this is my show, and I'm just going to do what I want. I have always felt like I wanted the opinions of my partners. And so as we went through the process and talked through the governance and everything, nearly all of what Rise would have a say in, I want them to have a say in. I'm using the cheat code there. And I do want to say it was important to me because I do feel like we have two of the most, if not the two most dynamic leaders in the independent space in Cheryl Penny and Joe Duran. It was important to me that they could get along and that they were friendly. And they are. I mean, I'll never forget when Joe's. Joe's firm kind of started to bubble up to the top. I was at a football game with Cheryl, and I looked at Cheryl and I said, hey, how, um, can you get along with. With Joe? And he's like, yeah, we go way back. We're friendly. So it. That was important to me.

Speaker A: Makes sense. Yeah. It's very cool how it worked out. So you mentioned you worked with the Dynasty Investment bank to run your process. Looking back on it, what were the biggest things that the Dynasty investment banker, Investment banker in general, did for you? What was, like, the big value adds or, like the major service that they provided?

Speaker C: One of the biggest things was getting us prepared because we were doing great. I mean, our growth rate's great. I mean, I don't know if I mentioned this, but 12% a year. I think we have averaged 12% a year on the Organic side, ex market. Those are pretty good numbers. And it's. You can sell that. I told Sam that I think you could sell this. But I think that where they added a ton of value was getting the entire partnership group on the same page as we went through the process. Because if you think about it, we had seven equity holders at the time. And the last thing you want is to be going down this path and run this whole process and then get close to the end and find out that one or two or three of the guys are not happy with the direction that we're going or don't feel like they've been represented well enough. A big part of what Sam and team did was get everybody on the same page and just make sure that we were there. And one of the ways that they did that was they helped us in creating an equity incentive plan for the advisors as well as the management team. And so I give them a ton of credit for the preparation, getting us ready to go, and then in running the process, I think helping me understand all of the offers and understand the, the differences, the nuances and the terms and all of that stuff. I mean, I'm. I don't live in that space every day. I am a. I'm a financial advisor, not an investment banker. And so there were a lot of. I mean, I learned a lot. I feel like I could play one on tv, as they say now. But I think that was a big part of what, of what he did and they, as a team did. And then a lot of times I would need things dumbed down like, okay, lay this out for me so that I can understand it and then I can go explain it to the rest of the partners. Right. In layman's terms. And so again, I talked about simplicity. I think that's part of why Rise rose to the, uh, to the top.

Speaker A: Perfect. That's a really helpful perspective. I could have guessed some of it, but hearing the specific examples of what an investment banker, in this case, it was Dynasty, did for you is really helpful. Everyone just thinks about, like, they're running an auction process and they're creating a sim and a deck, but it's. There's other things that honestly can make a bigger difference. And making sure we're prepared, making sure everyone's aligned, and it makes you a more attractive target and I think makes you more ready to really make the right decisions. That's really helpful. I want to talk a little bit about the economics. I'm not going to ask you about what multiple you sold for Even though I'm sure everyone's curious, none of our business. I'm sure it was meaningful. But to me, like, if you're thinking of you at UBS and the team in 2019, 2018, et cetera, you really had three different economic paths that you could have taken in addition to staying put and taking UBS's retirement plan. One day it was let's go to another wire or go to a firm, we'll get a huge deal because we're an amazing business, we're growing and be employees again. Nothing wrong with that path. Two is what you did was let's play the long game. Let's go independent, build our own firm. We're in defer a major liquidity event until we have a recap or we sell the business. And that's what happened. And then third would be you could have joined an existing firm, an existing ria. And I know like in your model now you're actively and you've been successful with it trying to bring on teams or advisors from a wirehouse who like the independent space but don't necessarily want to build it on their own. So super long winded question, but how did you think about the financial trade offs between those three different paths? And how would you advise someone who's still at a firm and is weighing something potentially similar to really think about the pros and cons of the three very different economic outcomes that they could create for themselves?

Speaker C: I think that the mistake, and I'm, I know my own case, but then I also have the perspective of recruiting now, right where I'm talking to current advisors that are at our, at wirehouse firms. I think that the mistake that a lot of them make is they look at the payout and they stop there and they don't contemplate the rest of the picture. And when I say that, I mean, look, you're sitting at a wirehouse and you're getting a payout and if you're uh, somewhere between 42 and 49 or 50% payout and that, that doesn't include what you spend in your business development account and all of that stuff. And then they tack on some deferred comp and so maybe that number gets up to the low to mid-50s. What they miss in that is that they're renting their practice, they don't own anything. And the compounding effect of that equity is really the key. And the piece that I think a lot of, a lot of wirehouse advisors miss, they run the numbers, they say, oh well, what If I go independent myself, and maybe my, maybe my payout creeps up into the high 50s, maybe even low 60s if they're running a really slim practice and firm, but they don't realize the compounding effect of that, of that equity. And so when we're talking to advisors today, that's a big component. Yes, we're going to give a, uh, competitive payout. And yes, you're going to, you're going to own the equity and get distributions and, and yes, there's cash if we, if it's the right situation for someone to receive cash when they're joining cindyo. But the big piece, and especially with a firm that's at our stage and at our size, at 3 billion, the road from 3 to 25 is going to really compound on your equity, whether you decide to launch your own and go down that path or join a firm like Ascendio or someone else. That's the piece that I often see getting lost. And I would go back to don't rent your practice, own it. And that's a big deal.

Speaker A: It's a good bumper sticker. I might steal it. That is the, it's the light bulb moment that happens or doesn't happen. It's the rent versus own, but also just understanding the way that equity in these businesses compounds and scales. Like, I know, like, I oftentimes in helping guide advisors through the thought process of, well, I can go out and build my own firm on my own, much like you did. Right. And I'll get a high payout and I'll own my equity. I'll have the ability to sell it to who I want to for some crazy number at the end of the day. And that's the right fit for a lot of people. There's plenty of people, though, who probably are better candidates and better fits to join a firm like yours. Sometimes it's hard for them to reconcile the economics of I can get 4x by transitioning to another wirehouse. I can own 100% of my own equity by doing it on my own. Or I could in essence merge or sell my practice into a growing RIA firm and get equity. And to me, the understanding how getting equity in a firm like yours is, has the ability to scale and grow and compound at a much faster clip and probably in a more efficient way than the equity that someone owns in their own business, that's really the light bulb moment. Again, it's not the right fit for everyone. And I know you always have your work cut out for you when you're trying to show people the light, but I think that's the light bulb moment is 100% of uh, a pie that I own and control and it will grow the way it's going to grow based upon my own efforts, everything on my back, etc. Or can I increase this asset that now I own in another firm where I get the contributions of 13 other advisors, I get a professional CEO, I have private equity capital and by the way, they've already grown 12% net of market every year, probably closer to 20% if you take market returns in. And that I think is the real issue that people either get or they don't. Would you agree?

Speaker C: I absolutely think that's the right answer. And there are teams and advisors that launching their own certainly makes sense. I'm not going to say that no one should do that. I do think that one of the things that gets underestimated as people look at the various options is the, the time give back that a firm like Syndio can give to an advisor. We allow you to own the equity, we allow you to participate on the upside, but you're not saddled with all these things that, that it takes to actually run a firm. And I think part of the reason that we've been able to be successful, there's a number of them, but one is the fact that I'm at a stage of life where I'm empty nested. I, I work, man, I just love this stuff. So, so it, it gives the firm more leverage from that vantage point. I think having the operational team that we have here with Dave LaCour and his seat is huge. But I also think that the partnership with Dynasty gives us a ton of leverage. Right. And so sometimes when people are evaluating, do I do I do a 1099 model? I know that there's so many different versions of what people call an air quotes independence, but the reality is when you join a firm like Ascendio, you're going to have so much of your advisor time back to yourself. And it compounds when you think about the amount of time at a wirehouse that you spend navigating bureaucracy, we're cutting that down. You're small, you're independent, you're running your own practice. And by the way, you don't have to deal with billing, you don't have to deal with financials, you don't have to deal with capital, you don't have to deal with office space. There's a lot of positives to the RIA story and then the one that we didn't mention with regards to the compounding of the capital of the equity is the capital gain treatment versus staying in place and doing a retire in place deal. That in and of itself is huge.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Advisors can disagree about independence. Which firm is best, what's the right client segment to serve. But uh, Capital Gainstream and I think is the one, probably the one universal truth in this industry. Everyone wants that and understands the value of it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I have to argue that one.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. In the press release or an article I saw after your announced transaction with Rise and Joe Duran, he said I see Cindio getting to 10 billion in the not so distant future. And earlier you said we're at 3 billion, 3 and a half billion on the way to 25 billion. So 3 to 10, I mean you can make the case that just give it a little bit of time with your growth and compounding, you'll get there. But three to 25, how do you bridge that massive gap? Like what's going to be the makeup in your view on your roadmap of organic growth, inorganic recruiting advisors? How do you think you grow by eight times more than where you are today?

Speaker C: Well, I think what you're describing is how do you scale? And that's a big part of why we feel like the partnership with Rise was the right mix for us. Look, I don't have all the answers right now. That's part of what we're, what we're going through. But as I see it, we're going to have to scale or uh, we're going to scale by bringing on additional talent not just in the advisory space. Yes, we're going to recruit advisors, we're going to recruit teams, but we're also going to need to recruit additional talent. We're probably going to hire a chief growth officer here at some point in the near future. Eventually we'll need a cfo. There's this whole playbook that we're going to, that we're going to run on the non advisor side. And you have to, as you get bigger there's just only so much time in the day. And so finding the right talent and to some extent growing the right talent within the firm. I'm a big fan of, of uh, hiring people into positions who I already know how they work. And so I think that's going to be a big part of it. Some of it will also be geography. We're very strong in Florida right now. Certainly between the St. Petersburg and Tampa markets over to Orlando, we will eventually I think go south towards Sarasota and Punta Gorda and Naples, but, but additionally expanding and looking at opportunities in the Southeast. I think that with the sports and entertainment piece of the business, having a presence in California will be critical and I think that we will do that at some point here in the future. So there's a lot of answers to the question of how do you go from 10 to 25? Hey, right now I'm focused on getting from three and a half to four. You gotta, you gotta keep, uh, gotta keep plugging away and that's what we're doing.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean you really do have a, have a blank canvas. You have capital, you have wind out your sales, you have organic growth, you got an amazing team. So it's more about just, I guess, being nimble. Right. Responding to opportunities as they arise. And like you, you said earlier, like, if you're not focused on something, it's not going to happen, which I completely agree with. So let's pivot back to just like, say like the mindset shift from being almost a 30 year veteran of the wirehouses, 21 at Merrill, 8 at UBS, to now being 5ish years into the independent world. What's something that you couldn't have, uh, fully appreciated or you didn't fully appreciate about life on this side of the industry? When you're at a wire, I think

Speaker C: one of the biggest pieces that's different and some of this is uh, the marketplace. Right. But some of it is in being an independent is the ability to, to curate and focus on and deliver to clients private market opportunities. You can buy and invest in hedge funds and private equity and things of that sort when you're at uh, at a wirehouse, but it's a very limited menu. Oftentimes they are feeder funds from the custodian, they're from the wirehouse themselves, themselves, which is problematic in and of itself. And anybody that's gone through a transition knows what I'm talking about. But I think the ability to help clients hone in on these private markets and be able to have an ability to review and go through what really works and what makes sense for each client is a huge issue. We do some of the work internally, but for some of it we outsource some of the due diligence so that we can uh, we can be confident. I go back to the athlete space. There are times when we'll see five to 10amonth of private deals that we need to review because it's important to the client and a lot of it's athletes. But it's some of. It's just regular clients, and we just can't do that when you're in the wirehouse. So I think that's a huge component. And then, uh, just being able to be creative in terms of both marketing as well as how you're going to grow the firm in independence. I have said this in the past that the one warning sign you have to do is you have to be careful about shiny object syndrome. Right? Because it's just I can do anything. And so what should I do and what should I not do? That is one of the things that's, I guess in some ways a positive about a wirehouse is they keep you within the bumpers and they don't let you go outside. When you're independent, you want to be able to go outside, but you've also got to create your own bumper. That's one of the big issues that are differences between being a wirehouse environment than being independent. The other thing that I would point to is just the ability to be creative with your employees with regards to how you reward them. And I do want to say this. Uh, one of the things that I was very proud of in the transaction and process with Rise is we decided to make every employee at Cindio an equity owner.

Speaker A: Oh, very cool.

Speaker C: I think that really excited the entire firm. That's hard to do in a wirehouse. You're not doing it. You don't have control over those things. So those are the pieces I point to.

Speaker A: Those are three amazing takeaways. Out of curiosity, what's like a private investment or two that you're proud of or that is just. That really illustrates, like, the power of being a fiduciary and having visibility and the ability to advise on things that wouldn't. That would never be on a wirehouse platform.

Speaker C: Well, I think one of the examples, and I won't go too deep on it because it'd be too obvious to some of our clients. But we had a client come to us with a private investment that he really wanted to do. And when we looked at it on the surface, we scratched our head and said, man, I don't think we should do this. And we brought in our outside due diligence firm, and they studied it and looked at it, and we went back and forth and back and forth. And the client really wanted to do it because he wanted to be supportive of some younger folks. And what I'm really proud about with regards to that one is that between us and our private due diligence firm, we helped him find a way that the deal could be constructed in a manner that we could get comfortable with and that the, uh, that our outside due diligence partner could get comfortable with. That's not happening at a wirehouse. That's a service above and beyond. That's just a small example. There are others. I mean, we have done some interesting things. We did our own private group credit fund back in 2022. It's worked out pretty well that that might be one of those things. Shiny object syndrome. We were excited about it. I don't know that it was that it's something that we would do again, fund's doing great. Everything's playing out the way we would have hoped for it to do. But. But those are just examples of things that you can do when you're independent.

Speaker A: Very cool. The example you used of the private investment, I mean, you really gave advice and were able to have an opinion and influence the outcome versus if you were at UBS or any captive firm, your client would have brought it to you and just would have been like, I can't. I'm not allowed to give you advice on this. It's not on the platform. Like, good luck. It's a totally different outcome and experience for the client. That example to me, like, really brings it home for what the power of, of the independent space is really all about. Let me ask you two more questions to wrap and then we'll, we'll let you get on with, with growing your firm. I mean, there's clearly a version of your story where you get to a billion and a half, 2 billion, and you're like, cool, this is awesome. We've made a ton of money. We built a valuable firm. We got rid of the bureaucracy like, life's pretty good. But you definitely did not take that approach like many successful advisors and firm owners. Instead, it was, we're at three and a half billion, we'll be at 10, relatively quick, and then we're going to 25. So how did you think about that? Of just getting comfortable and just hanging out to an extent. Like transitioning to more of a lifestyle business versus what you're doing now, which is pedal to the metal, growing, working hard and really building something.

Speaker C: Well, I have to speak personally, obviously, because my partners have, I think they have similar views, but I can only speak to my own personal situation. And what I would say to that is just that I'm just not cut like that. I'm not made. I'm not made like that. There are times where I wish I was. I wish I could just kick back and chill and whatever. I love this business. I love the ability to. To impact other people's lives. And I think sometimes the term growth and all these numbers we're throwing out to go from 3 billion to 10 to 25 and all that stuff, I always think about the clients. When I think about the people that we're impacting, more so than I think about pounding our chest and saying, we've. We've grown this firm to such a level. The reality is you don't go from 0 to 3 billion unless you're helping people. And the additional reality is you don't go from 3 billion to 10 to 25 unless you're helping a whole lot more people. And that, to me, is really the reason that I think we do it. And for me personally, quite frankly, I'm not a big hobby guy. I'm not. I don't golf a lot. I don't fish a lot. I enjoy this business. I enjoy working. Don't get me wrong. I love to relax, I love to go to sporting events, and I take vacations. But really, this business is a lot of fun to me. And when I talk about the people that you help along the way from 3 to 10 to 25, it's the clients, but it's also the people that you're working with and the opportunities that you're creating. I love seeing young people come in here and you see stars in their eyes, man. They just. They want to learn this business and they want to work and they want to have fun.

Speaker A: That's some great advice and a really interesting perspective. Any parting words or final advice for someone weighing a transition or even a transaction of their practice?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think in terms of the transition piece, study the options and then don't overanalyze it. If I have one strength that sometimes I can make quick decisions, I can evaluate something and I'll dive in and I'll get the details and everything. But then at some point, it's like, go or no go, man. You've got to go or no go. And I guess that's the guidance or advice I would give to people who are thinking about a transition, whether it's from a wirehouse to a launch on their own, or from a wirehouse to an. Or any of the types of transactions or transitions that you're so familiar with. In terms of the. A, uh, transaction versus a transition, I would say study the options, know what is out there. But I would also say get some help. I could not have done what we did us. Uh, Cindio, as a firm, couldn't have done what we did without the investment banking help of Dynasty. We couldn't have tried and done what we did on Launch without people like yourself. So you want to enlist help, and there are professionals out there that do this stuff all the time. And if you're an advisor, I mean, I talk to advisors all the time and I ask them, do you have any spare time? Like, do you have time to go kick the tires on all these different options and study these, uh, different potential transactions? And the answer is usually no. So, like, we preach to clients to hire professional help with your finances. I think it's the same thing with advisors to, to seek professional help. And, uh, to me, that's the right investment banker. It's the, it's the right, Right consultant and the right. Surround yourself with the right people.

Speaker A: Perfect. Great way to wrap. And I didn't tell you to say the last part, but I appreciate it. I'm biased, but. Now this has been one of the coolest conversations I've had the honor of conducting. I knew you guys were going to be successful back in 2019. I mean, you couldn't help but think that. But to see what you've accomplished, how you've done it, where you're going, it gives me the warm and fuzzies. I know, and it's amazing to see. I mean, just the focus on the athletes and entertainers, success in recruiting, selling a minority stake to a very legitimate private equity firm, and really having the roadmap to be one of the top firms in the industry. So thank you for your candor and transparency and I learned a lot and I'm sure our audience did as well.

Speaker C: Thank you, Louis, to you and your firm. I mean, for doing what you do. I'm a big fan of the podcast. I listen to nearly every episode. So keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: M. As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity. Integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm's or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind. It's a self guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you're considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy@ah diamond-consultants.com thebook.