Smarter Checkout Strategies and Hidden Tech Debt, with Sarah Gallagher

Speaker A: M what I'm seeing and hearing a lot of is brands really trying to get their hands around their data. The amount of data that brands have now is more than ever before. We have actually three clients that we work with that this year hired new CMOs. And the first thing I saw that CMO do when she stepped into the role is audit the data. Whatever the tool is, whether it's a free tool, whether it's a paid tool, getting your hands around it, because we're just gonna to be faced with more and more opportunities to use that data.

Speaker B: You're listening to Deal Closers brought to you by websiteclosers.com a show about how to build your e commerce business to be profitable, scalable, and one day even sellable. I'm Jason Gilliken and, um, on the show today, we're talking about something that most e commerce brands think they have figured out, but probably the customer journey. Sure, you've built a great product, you've marketed it well, but if your checkout experience isn't strategic and your tech foundation has more patches than a jean jacket from the 80s. Nice old guy reference there. You could quietly be leaking revenue and trust without even realizing it. Our guest today is Sarah Gallagher, CEO of Gamma Waves. She's been helping brands like Nike and Airbnb, among many others, grow smarter, and not just with better metrics, but with real innovation and empathy across the customer experience. So today we're diving into smarter checkout strategies, avoiding hidden tech debt, and building e commerce foundations at scale without breaking. Sarah, uh, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Speaker B: I'm so excited to have this conversation and, uh, to hear where we're missing out. So you've been working with some big brands that I mentioned, uh, some fast growing startups. Can you start by sharing how you got into digital commerce and what led you to founding Gamma Waves?

Speaker A: Yeah, so, um, I got into digital commerce really at the very beginning of digital commerce. So I was helping companies first just advertise online. Uh, so when that was very new, that market was growing, companies were trying to do like Google Ads to find their physical businesses. So it started there is this like

Speaker B: mid 2000s, early 2000s. What are we talking about here?

Speaker A: We're talking early 2000s. We're talking.

Speaker B: So like Overture days.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly, actually, yeah. And, um, I built the first, uh, Shacks e commerce site back in the day where he, he had a footwear brand literally back in probably Shaquille o'.

Speaker B: Neal. Whoa. Okay.

Speaker A: Then launched the first iteration of Sony's, uh, Latin America E commerce business. I went down to Buenos Aires and did that. So it was a really, like, wild and exciting time in E commerce, um, and just everything digital at the time. So I got into it because it was new. It was evolving and changing. And I've stayed in it because it's still evolving and changing and always is. Like, every year, like, we've gone through blockchain, we're going through AI. Like, how are businesses, like, adapting and changing to technology and using them to help their businesses grow? So, yeah, that's how I got into it, and that's why I'm still in it.

Speaker B: Well, tell me a story. Like, how did you connect with Shaq? Uh, Shaq's team. Like, how did this all happen?

Speaker A: Yeah, I moved to San Francisco, and I got a job at an agency, and we were just. I'm trying to think how we even landed that business. Um, you know, we were doing just that typical agency sales outreach and landed on Shack. And I think you wanted to work with the San Francisco agency because that's where it was all happening. And at the time. And we said, yeah, we were. You know, I think our clients at the time were, like, Schwab and the Mayo Clinic, so had some, like, recognizable names. And he was like, great, we'll work with you guys. And we had. He sent us one of his shoes, so we had this, like.

Speaker B: Like, size 25 shoe.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was really a size. I think his size is, like, 24 or something like that. It was massive. It just looked like not a real thing. So we had that in our office and got to work on that. It's really fun.

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. You need to find that and put that as your background.

Speaker A: I know. I wonder who ended up with that. Uh, I should have tried to get that.

Speaker B: Wow. Okay. All right. And you mentioned that E commerce is evolving quite a bit, and it is ever evolving. You know, what worked, uh, back in the early 2000s might not be working today by any means, but some of the things that you're working on at Gamma Waves, it works whatever era we're in. And having a great customer experience works in whatever era we're in. Is that one of the reasons that you founded Gamma Waves?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I stepped in at Gamma Waves. I actually didn't. I'm not the founder, but I stepped in, took over from the founder, um, who needed some support to take the agency and grow it. So I rebranded, um, as Gamma Waves, refocused us on exactly what you're talking about thinking about a little bit more than just how to sell online, but how to be really strategic about both selling online and telling the brand story through the customer journey and creating like, really customer journeys that resonate, um, with your brand and with your customers.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so let's talk about the customer story or customer experiences that, that resonate. Um, and you've mentioned and you've written a lot of LinkedIn posts that really resonated where uh, you're, you're losing, um, you know, e, ah, commerce companies are losing a lot of money with a checkout experience. Um, can you, can you talk about that not being just a good, a fine, good enough experience, but being an actual revenue opportunity?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So there are a few things at, uh, checkout that I think are really important. And that's the point where if the customer, especially if it's a new customer to your brand, it's a real trust building, uh, location. Right? So you're asking someone to give you money, they're looking at a cart. They, um, are trusting that you're going to ship it to them, that they're going to get it when they want it, that it's going to be the quality that they think it is. So everything that you can do there to build trust, and that's everything from content in checkout and also how the checkout functions. So if it feels glitchy, if it's got things like kind of hopping around as the page loads and it just looks a little off, they might not recognize it, but subconsciously they're going to have some friction. They're like, is this a place where I should give my money? And then I think the other piece is that, uh, that content. So again, if they don't know you as a brand, you don't want to throw tons of stuff on checkout.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You still want to feel really streamlined. But anything about your brand that they should know at that last minute. So are they getting free shipping? Are returns easy? If they have any final questions, is there a number that they can call or text? Um, and then is there any like pro social thing that you're doing? So like, is every order going to plant a tree? Tell me that and I'll be even more excited to like hit that pay now button. Because now, I mean a lot of platforms have created these really streamlined checkout experiences. And that's all great. It's just creating those really subtle trust signals at that final moment where it's like, am I giving you my money?

Speaker B: So true. And you think about some of the brands that you have worked with, like Airbnb or Shack, for example, those are brands already. And some of our listeners, most of our listeners, most of our viewers are not big brands. And so, um, the, the customers always have it in the back of their mind, like, is this truly legit or am I, am I going to have either? Am I going to get had or is this going to be a bad experience? Um, and so to, to make sure that everybody's comfortable with that. You're absolutely right. I mean, you, you nailed it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, I love that you are focused on kind of like how to grow your brand and potentially sell your brand, because that is now with Gamma Waves, a cohort of brands that we work with a lot and really like working with. So they're smaller brands, but some of the brands that we've helped get to that point where they've either raised a bunch of money or sold. It's like a super group. The Sunscreen Flight Club, the sneaker company that sold to go for $60 million. And for both of those, when we first started working with them, um, one of the first things that we did is look at that checkout experience and look at like they were growing brands. They weren't known at that point. Maybe they, they were smaller, like had some cult following type things, but they weren't the bigger brands that they are now. And it's like building that trust throughout the process. Like, not just at checkout, but checkout's really important. And so we always start there because that's where like, you move the needle and it makes the biggest jump.

Speaker B: So, so what did you do? You know, you, you mentioned that you were able to help out at, uh, checkout. Like, what does that mean? What were you able to do?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, so for both of those. So Flight Club, when we worked with them, we did that project as a series of a B tests. So we tested, we came up with a bunch of hypotheses. We literally just made a huge spreadsheet of like, here's what we think, here's what we think it will change. And let's run a bunch of tests and try to just move all metrics up as quickly as possible. And so at checkout, one of the things with Flight Club, the way that they did sneaker drops, as you know, they sell really hot sneakers, um, often sizes can be split, so you know, they will sell so quickly that something might not be fully out of stock. Um, but most of the sizes are out of stock, but there's one left. And so what we did was some a B test to expose that so that someone shopping could shop really quickly and understand what's available and when. And then we were very clear in cart, created, um, some urgency in cart, like, get, hey, these are moving really quick. You want to check out, you want to claim it. Um, making sure that that checkout experience was totally friction free. We did a lot on the back end with inventory to connecting to their physical stores to make sure that that was all accurate. Again, that customer trust thing, like, you're going to lose trust if you check out. And they're like, oh, sorry, we don't actually have that. So, like, making sure that the experience was very tight. Ah. And just tested, tested, tested. So we tested everything on that customer journey from, like, how. And we started from thinking about, how does this customer shop? They want what's hot, they want it fast, they want to get it before anyone else. So what are we doing to support that? So we did that through the customer journey. Supergoop. Um, different shopper, right? So we dove into, who's that customer? What do they care about? When we started working with Supergoop because of what their. So their sunscreen brand, um, they came out, uh, started getting really big, I think, during the pandemic. But they needed to do more education about why their sunscreen was the way it was. Right. Why people should pick Supergoop over, like, your more traditional drugstore sunscreens. So we did a lot there around building the customer journey around education. So every from the homepage to the product page and then through checkout, reinforcing that decision, reinforcing the education that we were delivering to the customers about the benefits of that specific type of sunscreen and their formulations and all that. So again, building trust, like, this isn't something I've ever used. Is it going to look white on my skin? Like, how's it going to show up? And so just kind of answering the questions before they happen and building trust through the process.

Speaker B: That's so smart. Um, you mentioned a B testing. Do you have any examples of something that you thought would be just awesome and then, you know, wasn't? And I know I'm putting you on the spot, but is there anything that you can think of where you're like, this is gonna. I'm gonna crush this one. And then, you know, you thought there was the A and then the B was the one that. That. That was better?

Speaker A: Yeah, Um, I do. One that we've done recently was for packaged goods company. And so we're built out like a subscription tool. And you could choose, you know, know, a bigger bag of the product and you could choose, like, get more of the product on a less frequent basis. And so it was a little bit complex, but we said, well, let's show the savings in dollars. And we tested against versus percent. And I was like, well, dollars is going to be a slam dunk. Like, everybody wants to be really clear on how much they're going to save. And. And for whatever reason that was total loser. People wanted these, like, weird. I'm going to save 27%. Was. And I was like, uh, I don't get it. But that's what won. And this, like, that's why I love AV testing because sometimes you would do something where you're like, well, obviously this is a clear answer. Like, obviously, I want to know I'm going to save $5, not 27%. But that wasn't the right answer and I would have never just gone that direction on my own. So that's, I think, why AV testing can be so powerful because we have so many inherent biases.

Speaker B: It's humbling sometimes when you, when you realize that your opinion doesn't matter that much. You know, your opinion doesn't really matter. It's what everybody's opinion is rather than what your opinion is.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what you're like, oh, this is obvious. No, it's not. Like, go.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, so can you talk about. And. And again, this is coming from, from your LinkedIn. And if listeners. Viewers are watching this, listening to this, uh, Sarah Gallagher is an awesome LinkedIn follow. So make sure you go follow her. But can you talk a little bit more about, um, smarter upsells? You know, um, what is that? What does that mean? What does that look like? And again, like, is there. Do you ever get nervous about that feeling a little bit icky? Um, when people are just there to, to do that one thing?

Speaker A: Yes. Um, so I think when I talk about smarter upsells, I do think that cart and checkout are a great place for upsells, of course. But to your point, they do need to be done in a really intentional way to not feel icky or feel like it's just getting in the way. It's a junk in the cart or checkout. So, um, I think what makes them smart is it either is related to the product in cart and truly would be like a value add. So, you know, if it's makeup and someone's buying a lipstick, maybe It's a lip liner that goes with it or a lip scrub that's going to prep your lips to look really good. Um, with the lipstick on. Or if it's apparel. Right. There's outfit building. And if you're doing that well on your site and you have either items tagged or you're using a tool that does the outfit. Outfit building for you, that you're presenting truly related items. Um, or small like easy items that feel like, oh, that's a treat, I'll add that. Um, but I think sometimes it'll be like, you know, a universal like just add this hat that, you know, you're kind of like, well I'm buying a pair of shoes and this doesn't really like fit. Um, then it maybe doesn't make as much sense or it does start to create a little bit of friction or like the price point is too high. You're maybe not gonna just double your cart value on a whim. You'd need to like go look at the product page and, and see more. So, um, that's what I mean about smarter upsells. And I think, yeah, the feeling icky. I think the more personalized that upsell is, the less icky it feels. So just to that like if it's truly based on either something that really fits or actions that the customer has already taken on the site that show that they would be interested in that product, um, like it's from their wish list or and it goes with what's in their cart. Right. And you're creating the logic that shows that those things do make sense as an upsell then I think it feels less icky. But yeah, sometimes I do feel like it's, you know, why bother?

Speaker B: Yeah. And imagine you, you learn also from shopping around and seeing what Target does, um, when you put something in your cart. Right. And you know, seeing what Amazon does and then you also have to consider, well those are big brands, there's a lot of trust there. Um, so it gets complicated. But anyway, uh, just kind of.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I do think for those big like multi brand big box stores, behavior is different and customers are different and they also have so much data, especially Amazon, um, that mid market smaller brands just aren't going to have access to. Um, so it is a little bit more, I think the opportunity is you can bring your own brand story into that a little bit more than like Target can. Um, and yeah, and just work with the data that you have on your state.

Speaker B: Definitely. One, um, thing that you've mentioned is in your LinkedIn is technical debt. Um, and could you explain what that is exactly and then um, we can touch on that a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so technical debt is basically just either old code, legacy code, kind of snippets of things that are left over for things you've tried. So a lot of times when we step into a project, we'll see, um, maybe a client or a brand has added an app to test it out on their Shopify store and then they've deleted it or they've just stopped using it and they didn't delete it, but it's still actually injecting code when the page loads. And so everything that's happening on your site is slowing it down a little bit. So that's one example might also be content. So as, as brands change content, add pictures, add videos, they might forget to optimize them or they might forget to um, you know, delete old pictures or they like just delete older content on their site. Um, and then also as you have different developers working on your site, you might have a developer like do create something that maybe is not loading in an optimized way. Right. So it's like we've seen um, brands where the homepage just has this massive initial page load at from the jump and it makes the whole experience slower. But actually you could push down some of that code, have it load a little bit later when someone's scrolling and not have that initial hit. So it's, if you can clean all of that up, then your site can run a lot faster. One example of this that we actually just did with a new client, we said, look, they just felt like, we know our site's laggy. Can you get in, do a quick audit, fix it. We just spent three and a half weeks, we went through the audit, just cleaned up backend, didn't touch anything on the front end of the site, didn't do any design work, nothing. Just cleaned up all the code and their conversion rate went up by 37%. And so because of the speed, because of the speed. Whoa. There was probably also some of that, what I'm talking about, like that customer friction where you're like, the site was just felt a little bit bumpy, you know, and it's a really high end brand, um, like nice apparel, higher end price point. And so like that stuff doesn't fly right. You gotta clean that up.

Speaker B: Wow. Okay. And I imagine uh, that some E Commerce owners, founders are, I don't, I don't want to see this. I don't Want to know what's wrong with, with my site and hiring somebody like Gamma Waves to do that makes it a lot easier to go through the process.

Speaker A: I think that's true. It can be overwhelming and I think, you know, brand, sometimes it's not that sexy because you don't see it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like it's not like design where you're kind of going, oh, let's make a new homepage or let's make a new landing page. It's like just, it's under the covers so it's not as fun to work on. But it's like, let's just clean it up, fix the foundation and then we'll go do the fun things again.

Speaker B: Fun things? Yes. And then also it's also, it's like the hundred thing that they need to do. Um, it's way down on the list of uh, the, the tyranny of the urgent. Right. Like things that need to be done right now and having a site audit, you know, it needs to be done but at the same time you don't really want to do it. So again, super valuable that, that you offer that.

Speaker A: Totally. I, that's a great point. I'm going to steal that. Tyranny of the urgent. I love that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean it is, it's if, if people can still check out, it's kind of easy to go, you know, I'll deal with that later. I'll deal with that later. And it's like, but you could be missing out, I think for this brand that's going to translate that alone. If they did nothing else, it's like an extra $7 million for the year. So it's like just hidden. And I think you're just not. Brands aren't thinking about that exactly. They're like, well, people can still check out, so I don't need to worry about it. But it's like this could actually be hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars depending on how much business you're doing.

Speaker B: Wow. I hope they've given you a testimonial.

Speaker A: Okay, I need to get one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Geez. Testimonials fall down my list.

Speaker B: Oh, right. Exactly. Um, you mentioned that that can be a pretty quick fix. But we can't totally be thinking about quick fixes. Um, you know, we also want to think about how does this business, how does this website scale to one day be sellable? And a quick fix is, is great, um, but not exactly, you know, what needs to be done. Do you work with clients on long term plans as well as the Short fixes.

Speaker A: Yes, uh, definitely. So uh, I like to do both yearly strategic plans and then also quarterly business reviews and like strategic plan revisions with all of our clients. So we have, even with some of our clients we have three year roadmaps based on what their long term goals are as far as growth and then also like business expansion. So that's especially if they're going to roll out say circular commerce or go international like some of those bigger projects. We like to put stakes in the ground even if it's like two years out.

Speaker B: Um, and for one second, Sarah, Circular commerce, can you explain that?

Speaker A: Yes. So Circular commerce is resale on your own site typically. So it's like owning the resale market for your brand. So since we do work with a lot of apparel that's growing and growing as companies want to be more sustainable but also want maybe to be able to have a channel to do something with their returns that they can't resell. Like maybe someone's wardrobe bit, they took the tags off. It's harder to resell instead of just throwing that away. Creates um, a sales channel for that. And then also brands are looking at those resale markets like ThredUp or the RealReal where other people are selling their clothes and taking the revenue and saying hey, this is a channel where we could maybe own um, that sale.

Speaker B: Got it. Okay. So circular commerce is part of that long term strategy that you were talking about?

Speaker A: Yes, because there are, there are a few different ways to get at it. One, you know, if you're, if you want to re, take that inventory and sell it, that's certainly some logistical um, planning that needs to happen. But there are also, there's ways to do it peer to peer. Uh, so but you're just facilitating it on your own site so you're able to like capture the new customer, facilitate the sale, but not actually take inventory. So there are just some different things that need to be thought through. There's also also, if you do want it to um, incorporate returns, that's another flow that we'd want to integrate. So that's something that we do make um, typically like mid to longer term plans around.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, I don't know that E Commerce companies are typically thinking about that, but it's an interesting strategy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we're seeing more and more of it. It is because it can be complex, um, doesn't have to be, but it's, it is one of those things. It's like we start talking about it a few years before it happens. So, um, with our client Doen, um, they're a sort of cult California apparel brand for women. They did plan for that for about a year and a half. So that was a really big project. And they do. And partly that was because they did want to take all the inventory. So they do a period and they do it in drops because they do a lot of their, um, products and drops. But they'll actually do a buyback of inventory from their clients and say, hey, the windows open. Do you want to resale any of your garments? They take them back, they verify authenticity, they clean them, they make sure they're in great shape. And then they do a drop of hey, resale is open for this window of time. People sells like wildfire and then they close it again. So it generates a lot of excitement because. And they, one of the reasons that they did it was they saw on, um, Facebook there were these big marketplaces of people reselling product and then there were also people complaining that they got fake products and this. And so it's like a really good way to ensure authentic product is out there circulating and people know that they have a trusted place to go buy it and it's like a more accessible way into the brand that has like higher price points. You can capture some customers that want to shop at lower price points now and then might become a full price customer later.

Speaker B: That's a great point. Wow. Okay. Um, so Sarah, in your experience, where are E commerce companies leaving the most money on the table without realizing it? You've given some great examples and maybe that's, it's one of the examples that you've already given. But where are they leaving the most money on the table?

Speaker A: I mean, I think that tuck debt, uh, is a big one. And then I would also say a B testing. I think because I recently heard this stat, I was shocked. I think it's under 10% of E commerce companies are AB testing.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And I mean you don't have to do it forever, but you can go through a cycle of a B tests and there are close to free platforms that will help you do it and really uncover like hidden revenue and again, like fight some of those assumptions that you've made on your own store. Like, well, of course people want to shop this way. It's like that might not be true and you might be costing yourself thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars by making some small changes. So I think AB testing, that was when I was like, every, you know, that stat should be flipped. 90% of Ecom stories should be AB testing at least, you know, once a year go through a series of tests and then let it sit. But uh, yeah, I think specifically a

Speaker B: B testing on what are we talking about, uh, the checkout experience? Are we talking about email, um, blasts, Are we talking about um, content on the site? Like what, what, what is the lowest hanging fruit for AB tests?

Speaker A: I think what would say all of those things, um, can and should be AB tested. But I think that's maybe why brands don't start is it can feel overwhelming. So I would say let's start, let's look at the metrics, right? And see is it what's either jumping out as something's been sliding lately or something feels like it's off compared to the rest of the market. Like does conversion rate feel low? If it does, let's start there. So let's start with, you know, and let's look at is it the add to cart rate that's low or is it the cart, uh, to checkout rate that's low and kind of use that to figure out where do we want to start. And I always start sort of closest to the metric or closest to conversion and then go backwards from there. So maybe start in cart and then go back to pep and just run a series of tests. And then I think it's also again looking at the data. Hey, do we see that, you know, often email is driving a significant percentage of business. How are those customers converting compared to regular customers? What can we do to move that? What can we do to move email click throughs? Just one run one AB test, see what you learn from it and then decide if you're gonna run anymore.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great advice. Um, um, Sarah, you've been full of great advice throughout this. What's one question that you were hoping that I would ask? Um, that I didn't ask.

Speaker A: Maybe what I'm hearing brands are looking and doing over the next year.

Speaker B: Okay, so Sarah, what are, what are you hearing that brands are looking to do over the next year?

Speaker A: Yeah, great question, Jason.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: I think that uh, over the next year I'm here, what I'm seeing and hearing a lot of is brands really trying to get their hands around their data. Um, so we kind of like touched a little bit on data earlier. I think the amount of data that brands have now is more than ever before. The amount of ways that they have to aggregate that data is more than ever before. Um, if you're using Google Analytics, which many brands are because it's free, they changed the way that their platform works. At the end of last year, everyone's really struggling to understand it. Everyone's really struggling to marry their analytics with their marketing attribution and things like that. So I think just kind of similar to a B testing, it almost doesn't matter how you do it, it just matters that you do it. And we have actually three clients that we work with that this year hired new CMOs. And the first thing I saw that CMO do was when she stepped into the role is audit the data. So they were using all of them. Different platforms, different, different tools, but just really digging in and going, does this all make sense? Are all our tags set up correctly? You know, are, uh, our marketing channels feeding in the right place? So I think just whatever the tool is, whether it's a free tool, whether it's a paid tool, getting your hands around it, because we're just going to be faced with more and more opportunities to use that data.

Speaker B: Yeah. And is it easier now because of AI advancements?

Speaker A: I don't know if I would say it's easier, but I would almost say it's easier to pull out insights because of AI advancements. So as long as that foundational data set is good, so that's where that data, like understanding and audit, like, is my data clean? I'm not duplicating, um, data or like double counting conversions, things like that. Um, all my attribution is actually, I feel confident that, you know, if I say this is coming from email and this is coming from paid, that's correct. Um, so just making sure that that's tight and then AI is making pulling out insights from that data a lot easier.

Speaker B: Yeah. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the Deal Closers podcast today. Where can our listeners and viewers find you and connect with you?

Speaker A: Yeah, so you can find, uh, me and my team@Gammawavesio and you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Sarah Thompson Gallagher.

Speaker B: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. Um, and thank you for listening. So if you're ready to stop treating checkout just like a buy button and start using it as a real growth engine again, check out her work at, uh, Gammawaves IO. And thank you for listening to Deal Closers, brought to you by website closers.com. if you're enjoying the show, make sure you follow rate or share it with your network. It helps us reach more ecommerce founders just like you. If you're thinking about selling your business or just want to know what it could be worth, visit website Closers to this episode was edited and produced by Walk West. I'm Jason Gilliken, and we'll see you again soon on the Deal Closers podcast.