How to Deal with Difficult Clients

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Copy Corner with your host. I'm Terry Schilling.

Speaker B: And I'm, um, Dan Marzullo.

Speaker A: And this is our corner of the Internet where we like to talk about copywriting, marketing, freelance writing, tips to help you grow a business, work with clients that you love, and work and write and sell smarter. And as always, this podcast is brought to you by copy for everybody.com and draftedcontent.IO. go check out those two amazing websites for services, writing services, and free resources on copywriting and freelance writing. And today, Dan, this episode, I feel like it's a long time coming. We were just talking about how we never really covered this topic extensively, but we want to talk about how to deal with difficult clients. As a writer, uh, Dan and I have had our, you know, have had our fair share of experiences dealing with, you know, clients who, you know, haven't paid invoices on time. You know, scope, try to scope creep a lot. Try to, like, squeeze in some extra, you know, services there, some extra writing who set, you know, unreasonable timelines from the beginning. There's some red flags that we can spot now pretty early on, but we're going to cover a handful of these topics today on this episode. Um, but, Dan, let's get right into the invoicing topic of today, because this is always a big one. Like, I have a client who hasn't paid and stopped communicating. Or, you know, they're take. They keep delaying paying invoices or they don't pay at all. But let's just start with what happens if you have a client who does not stops talking to you and hasn't paid their invoice.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, great question, Terry. So what we've done in the past to deal with this is obviously, you know, you're okay, you're following up with them several times, and they're just ghosting nothing, nothing, nothing. Right. Um, eventually what you need to do is bring in some bigger muscles than you to scare them. Right? So, um, what we've done is say we've followed up several times. No luck. Um, I'll have our accounting firm reach out to them, right? So they'll actually email them directly, um, a little bit more professional, more authority kind of behind that, uh, requesting payment and kind of laying out the details per the contract. And that typically, in my experience, every time has been like, oh, shoot. Then they reply to that, um, and then they kind of take it from there and handle that. And that, for some reason, has really been helpful. Other times it's like, okay. Sometimes you yourself just isn't enough. You need to show that, um, maybe you're a little bit bigger than just yourself. So if you have an accounting team or somebody like that that can come in and back you up, and it's not just you pursuing it every single time, um, that'll help move the needle on those unpaid invoices.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like what you said when you show like you're not just yourself working. Because I think there's this narrative that some clients may have, like, oh, as a freelance writer, I've been getting work, or maybe I'm not fully satisfied, and they just kind of carry on and don't want to communicate with you anymore. It just shows sometimes how some clients won't take your profession as seriously as, you know, as they should. And so I think when you have that third party, and this is a big reason why it's one of the first things you should do, and you become a little bit more established as a freelance writer, in our opinion, is to get an accountant to have those things. That way, you know, even if it's somebody who does your taxes, just contact them later and be like, can you email this client and just say that, like, on behalf of, you know, Terry Schilling Creative, can you email them and be like, your invoice is delayed because the softwares that you use can have reminders. But again, if they're not responding, try this method out. Because this has worked for me in the past as well. Or even saying, uh, even saying like in an email from yourself, like, look, I haven't heard from you. I'm going to have my accountant reach out to you in a few days. If you haven't paid this on time, I'm sending another reminder that may expedite things a little bit as well. Um, but what are some things, Dan, that we can do even to prevent this from the future? Whether that's in our proposals and in our contracts from the beginning.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I like this one, Terry. So, yeah, the best way would just be to eliminate that problem altogether. Right. And how do you do that? Well, get paid up front. Right. Stop invoicing net 30 or after the project. Um, you know, that's something I've learned over the years. We. I never ever do that anymore. It's always up front, front. Um, if they push back on it, which they rarely do, you can negotiate like 75 up front or 50 up front, but always get at least something up front, uh, to just know that they're committed to you and, uh, that Project as well. It just, if you can get paid right away, then it just, all of that headache goes away. You don't have to worry about following up and all that. What do you think, Terry?

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm, I'm totally with you. And I always typically ask for 50. Sometimes I'll do 60. And I do that because occasionally the client will come back and be like, can we do 50? Which I'm okay with. And so it's a little bit of a tactic. I'm not. And like, 60, I feel, is just good for me to like, begin my research, to begin the writing and the drafts and then I'll set up even more milestones like after the first or after, like the whole. If I'm doing a website copy project, for example, if I deliver the home page and about page, I may have that second milestone be paid then so I can continue this work. And then if they don't pay, then I'll stop and I'll pause and I can email them like, I haven't paid. If we need to pause, let me know. I'm not going to complete any more work until this invoice is paid. Um, I know some freelance writers who, you know, do 50 up front and then the remaining do right before final edits. That way they don't feel like they're going to get like, cut out after they do everything and not get the work, you know, so. But right on, you know, ask for that payment up front. Even if you're starting out, Even if it's 20, just get some type of payment where you feel like, I'm gonna get paid for this initial work. Like, you know, what should I get be worth? Like, when delivering that first draft, how much work did I do before that where I feel comfortable getting paid? Yeah, you know, I think that's just a big thing and, you know, use that type of language in your initial proposal, you know, so they understand right away and even I'll touch on this. Like, I've done it even on upwork. I, I just thought about this because I had a recent project where someone reached out to me. You know, I had them release the milestone early on there. I. You just need to ask, you know, because they put the money in escrow and upwork for those who, you know, are familiar with that platform, but really just asking, you know, if they really want the work and really want to work with you, they, they'll feel comfortable doing that.

Speaker B: And another little, uh, tip I have on this, this is something that we started doing probably only like Two months ago, which has been incredible. And I wish I would have done this way a long time ago. But we've started now. Um, instead of, okay, payment up front, we used to just send the invoice, right? And then you wait for the invoice to get paid and then you move to that next step. Um, now what we do is we take it even a step further and get their payment details from them. So what we'll do is we'll send over contract, right? It's like, here's the project, here's what we're going to do, blah, blah, blah. And at the very end, it's uh, a little info, uh, form where they can fill out their ach bank transfer or their credit card info and they literally give it to us in the contract. So for them to finish that contract and sign it through, um, hello, sign, which is just like DocuSign, that's what we use. Uh, they have to put their payment info in there. So when we get that contract, we already have their details, we can go ahead and charge them because we've outlined in that agreement we're going to charge you. And these are the terms. And then that's just as smooth as butter because then it's like, boom, we've got the contract, we've got their payment. Let's run it, let's get to work.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I know I use wave platforms and they, you can save a credit card for a client on file. You can ask them too if they can save it. So like, if you do a retainer, you can maybe have in your agreement that says, you know, each month on the 1st or on the 4th, I'm going to, you know, run your credit card. Let me know within one or, uh, one business day or 24 hours. You could say, you know, if you want to cancel and then like, you can refund them after that. That way they just know. And then, you know, you can continue your work. Because I had, I had a friend who just, you know, they started a new contract. They haven't paid the invoice. She's done a little bit of work and she doesn't know what to do. And I'm like, pause the work and let them know. Like you're pausing it right now. Like, I can't complete anything until you complete your invoice. Like you're a business after all. Like, uh, it comes back to the initial part of this topic of like, they almost treat you like you're just like some scrappy freelancer when really you're A business owner at this point when you're doing this.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. All right, let's move on to another topic that hand, like when we deal with difficult clients. Um, and again, we're live too, for everybody listening to the podcast, but also, you know, who's watching live. We're on YouTube and LinkedIn. We like to go live with these shows as well. So if you're watching, leave any comments or questions that you may have as well. But Dan, what do we do about people who set unrealistic timelines from the beginning? Like if you're talking to a prospect or have you worked with them before and they're like, hey, can we turn this around in 48 hours? Uh, you know, and they're just constantly asking you for updates, like that type of client who just seems like in such a rush.

Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah, Terry. So I think this comes back to setting expectations up front right in the very beginning. Before you do anything for them in that initial onboarding phase, you need to tell them it's important, just not, uh, it's equally if not more important to tell them what you're not going to do as, as it is to tell them what you're going to do. Right. So like we have in our rate sheets line items of every single thing and every other little thing is an add on for an extra charge. Because if you don't have that shown in there, they're going to assume it's included. Right. So really, um, set every possible detailed expectation. And one great way that I like to do this is, you know, after that initial call and say, they're like, cool, let's do it, let's sign up. You've sent them the contract, they've signed, yada, yada. The next thing I do is we send a document that's literally just says next steps. Right. So here's what the client can expect. Um, this is going to happen and this is going to happen and then this, this, this. So they know, um, even if it sounds simple, like we're going to write a couple articles a month, you need to lay out exactly how that relationship's going to look from the time they sign that contract of everything you're going to do and how that's going to play out. And I think that if you can be super detailed there, um, they're not going to come back and ask for anything outside of that because they know exactly what you are and aren't going to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I had a similar situation where I laid out, you know, the milestones and the phases, if you will, to start the project. So, like, phase two will be, like, two to three weeks here. And the client came back to me. He's like, hey, I really love to see something by Monday. And this was Thursday afternoon. And I'm like, well, you know, I. It's like, I understand. We want to see something. I just began my research phase, you know, based on our agreement. You know, I mentioned what. I deliver the first draft of the homepage by this date. So I'm targeting that date, and he didn't come back to me with any type of, like, pushback or anything. Um, in another situation, if you can do that, just mention that if you want it expedited, I'd have to charge an extra 10, 20% rush fee, you know, based on. If we're, you know, changing around the agreement. Um, but again, I think the big thing is, like, a client can almost just test you in that way. Like, oh, let's just see. I've already. It's a transaction now, so let me just see if I can get something early. Um, you know, and they're more, like, demanding of it, if you will. You can be demanding right back. Just be firm right back to them and just say, based on our agreement. And Dan's point of setting those expectations of those next steps, that's key, because then you can always go back to that agreement and let them know, right. That this is. This is what we agreed on. I can deliver it by this date. Um, that's just such a huge thing. But, like, speaking up for yourself is gonna. You know, it's gonna pay off because they're just gonna be like, okay, that makes sense. Or, like, great. I. I bet you, like, what would you say, dan? Like, maybe 75, 80% of the time, I'm just throwing stats out of my butt here, but it doesn't really feel like there's a lot of pushback when you have those expectations, you know, from the beginning.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. You got to remember, right, you're not their employee. Like, you are a business owner. You have to respect your time and say no. Right? Set those boundaries.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And we'll cover some other, like, quick topics here. I just want to touch on, like, there's some clients who, like, are, like, really. We're setting boundaries with communication. Like, sometimes a client will just call me instead of, like, setting up, like, a meeting or emailing and trying to get something, you know, and I'll just, like, email them back, you know, and be like, hey, Look, I missed your. I saw that you called. Let's keep this on email. Unless an emergency, like, text me if we need to do that, if we need to get there. But I also just set expectations again in my agreement of, uh, like, if you need something, like, if you email me during the week, you can expect about a 24 hour turnaround time. If you send something to me on Friday or on the weekend, expectations of response by like Monday, Tuesday. Set those communication boundaries, too. And honestly, give your cell phone number out or just use that for like an emergency, depending on the client, because you'll have some who just like, want to talk to you through everything. Right? Like, I've had that before where they just want to, like, set a zoom meeting or call me to like, hey, I. I reviewed this. Can we do xyz, you know, set boundaries for yourself again, because you don't want to just have that type of client because they'll feel like you work for them completely. Like you're not at an agency anymore, you have other clients and they should respect that.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, well said for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Anything else, uh, on that, Dan, of just, like, people who like, constantly call you. They're just like, any clients like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, like you said, I don't. I don't think we even ever give out a phone number to clients. It's like they have our email and if they want to connect, we can schedule a zoom meeting. Right? But it's always, let's schedule this in. It's never, hey, can you jump on a call today in like two hours? It's like, no, you know, here's our availability for the rest of the week. Um, let's find a time that works there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that really about covers it, Dan. You know, I think we, we touched on it a lot. You know, a big thing is just like handling those expectations from the beginning in your proposal. Whether it's talking about timeline, set those milestones, those phases up of how long it will take, you know, so you have something to go back to. And if you're struggling with having a client who refuses to pay invoices or is constantly late, just be firm, like you're a business. So let them know, like, I'm gonna have my accountant, you know, reach out to you. Um, you know, get those payment informations from the jump. Get paid up front is a huge thing. I know it may feel difficult and feel weird asking for that. And I think a big thing is the imposter syndrome creeps in. Like, you have this narrative maybe of yourself, that I'm this freelancer, right? That I'm just trying to make it here. I'm this scrappy freelancer. But you are a business owner, so get that money up front, you know, trust that you trust your skills and, um, even gain that experience. Ask for, like, a couple hundred bucks up front and then work your way up to it once you get a little bit more experience in social proof, you know, to show clients. Any other last tidbits there, Dan?

Speaker B: No, that's it for me, Terry. I think we covered it for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. All right, everybody that's had to deal with difficult clients as a writer. Special episode today. Every episode is special, but this one's extra special.

Speaker B: I think this. This one Terry's tuning in from his guest house, as you can see.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, if you guys are watching live, I have this sweet virtual background here. Looks like I'm just, like, in my mountain home playing piano in the background. It's really nice. Um, but everybody, thanks again for tuning in to the copy corner. We had a slight kind of, like, delay, like a, you know, hiatus for about a month. But we're back, and we got some fun topics coming up for you, um, to cover about copywriting tips and freelance writing. You know, if you're looking to grow your business, get paid online as a writer. So as always, you guys can subscribe, download, rate, and review us on the copy corner. Search wherever you listen to podcast, Tune in live every. We typically do these on Mondays on LinkedIn and on YouTube. Um, but follow the copy for everybody.com drafted content IO. I realize I should have, like, a script here, you know, Dan and I should just do a script of, like, all the other closing things, but, uh, this is already way too long to close this episode, so thanks, everybody for watching. We'll catch you on the next episode.