Delivering technology advantage to the world of real estate with Raj Singh & Carolyn Trickett

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Change Makers in cre, a podcast by Real East. We're bringing you the stories and the people driving change and innovation in the commercial real estate industry. You're about to hear from a change maker as they share what went right, what went wrong, what they've learned along the way and what's next. So tune in and join us as we uncover what the future will look like for commercial real estate.

Speaker A: Cool. Hello and welcome, everyone. Welcome to the Change Makers in cre. I'm, um, your host, Tom Willis. I'm the co founder and CEO of Release commercial property management software. Today we joined with two very special guests from JLL Spark. We have Raj Singh, who is the managing partner, and Carolyn Trickett, who is a growth lead for Asia Pacific. Welcome along. Thank you for both joining us.

Speaker C: Pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Speaker A: Of course. And for anyone listening, bit of background. JLL Spark have invested recently in Release, so we're part of the, in the Spark family, which has been fantastic so far. We've been very fortunate to spend time with both Raj and Carolyn in person at events and that they've hosted us in San Francisco and last week in New York. So thoroughly enjoying getting to know everyone, uh, in the team and the big team, actually, the growing team as well. I'm not sure. I think Spark. When I was back in New York last week, it seemed like there was a whole bunch of new faces and growing and it's obviously very exciting. Yeah, we're enjoying the journey. I thought we'd kick things off by. I'm just getting to know a bit about you both. Just keen to know about yourselves and just a bit of background on your roles at jll. So, Raj, if you'd like to kick things off, that'd be fantastic.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. So, Raj saying, I'm managing partner of JLL Spark, so I lead the team. My background is more in investing than it is in real estate or prop tech. So I've been in VC for about 20 years now. Still can't get rid of the accent. So from London originally, but now living in the US on the West Coast. And, you know, I really am so excited about what we're doing at sp. It just seems to be a sort of groundswell opportunity going from zero to one, built to deliver technology advantage to the real estate world. So really enjoying it. Very, very interesting industry that we're all in and very pleased about it. So thanks for having me on and looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker A: No, fantastic. Do you think it's a, um, sort of dive Straight into it. But do you think it's an advantage coming from outside the real estate world or is it something that you had to work really quickly to start to figure it out and figure out how it all works?

Speaker C: It's a bit of both. I would say that it's more a disadvantage than is an advantage. So the advantage is you question things that people sometimes just take for granted. So that's useful. But the disadvantage is you can look really stupid when you don't understand how the thing actually works. And so, you know, I've been lucky that Carolyn actually is so well experienced and, you know, as part of our team has that sort of fundamental understanding. So yes, you know, there's probably a sweet spot a couple of years in where you're still relatively new, but you've still got some questions that are basic and that's probably where you can be the most useful. But right now it's still, still a steep learning curve.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you have the added challenge of obviously being a global company. You've got the translation between basically different, the same thing, but done differently in different countries. I mean, we've had to go on that journey and sometimes we learn quickly and sometimes we have to learn on our feet and kind of almost bluff our way through. But I think that was a few years ago. I think we're hopefully through that now. Uh, Carolyn, would you like to give us a bit of background as well, please?

Speaker D: Sure. I've been at JLL for many years. I first started in 2008 as head of business technology in the property management division. And that was a, ah, very interesting role, deploying solutions around the region for the property management business, which at that stage was very far behind in terms of technology compared to many other industries. About a year and a half ago, I stepped into the Spark team, which has been a completely different world for. So my role is growth principle. And what that means is after we've invested in companies, we take them under our wing and we work with them, we design a growth strategy to help them to grow. So that can mean different things for different types of products. Sometimes it's a product that JLL would use ourselves, sometimes it's a product that we would introduce to our clients. And we've also set up a whole reseller division. So we're now selling technology solutions to clients that we may not have worked with before and also selling new technology solutions to our existing clients.

Speaker A: Okay, that's fantastic. Thanks, Carolyn. And, and Raj on Spark itself, obviously a big call from a very old company. JLL I think well over 100 years old I believe and actually has its roots like yourself in London, I believe. Is it, am I right there?

Speaker C: That's right, yeah.

Speaker A: But a big step in, yeah, obviously to set up a full, I know there's jllt but then just put up a full investment arm. Um, pretty big call I imagine that was, that was made to really get into this. And obviously every company who's been around for a long time in an industry going through change has to figure out like what are we going to do? How are we going to approach this? And your approach is obviously setting up a venture arm and actually backing and getting really involved in that. So I'd love to know a bit like why did that, why did the business take that approach and what do you see as the opportunity in the commercial real estate industry by doing it this way?

Speaker C: Yeah, and you're right about us having been around a little bit. The first part of what is now JLL was form in London in 1760. So it's like 262 years ago.

Speaker A: So it's been around 100 years older than New Zealand where I'm from. So that's the context as to how that company is.

Speaker C: Yes, the American revolution hadn't happened yet. But um, look, I mean I think here's, here's the thing. Real estate has been an insanely profitable place to be for decades, centuries actually. And what's happening now is that you know, the landscape is changing. Technology is eating other industries and we believe it will come for our industry as well. And so actually we have a sort of quite a wide remit. And the way I would describe it is that we want to create a tech enabled service provider for the real estate industry. Uh, that is JLL to be tech enabled. And so that's really the goal. And um, JLL Spark is just the tip of the spear if you like. So we actually have a broader organization that we're a part of. It's called JLL Technologies. And so what we're doing, if you like, is we are, we're building technology that we believe it's important for us to have that we can clients better. Um, we're also partnering with outside technology companies to bring their technology to our customers. We are obviously acquiring technology, so we're buying companies. And then finally what Spark does, which is we're investing companies. So depending on how strategically relevant it is and how urgent it is, we will do a uh, buy a build a partner or an invest. So you know, that's our. That's our strategy and it's a very aggressive one. And I would say that's also differentiated in our industry. Our desire to bring technology to our clients is probably the strongest of any of the major brokerages out there. And we've gone the furthest down the route as well. So you really are trying to change the way that we do transactions in real estate, the way that we manage properties in real estate. And then on top of that, you know, a huge issue for us today, as you know, is sustainability. And so that's a big part of what we need to be able to do in order for our buildings to be carbon neutral and for us to reverse what we're doing with climate change. So lots of things there. But, you know, the key is that, you know, you can't. You. This train is leaving the station and you really have to be on it because, you know, technology is not going to change. And one. One part of the industry will adopt it and the other part will have to catch up. We want to be ahead of the game.

Speaker A: Really interesting. We've. I've almost checked, like. So I feel like the industry myself, I kind of had this feeling that there's like the carrot and stick in terms of technology change. Right. And I think there's been a lot of technology companies who have always sort of complained in the last decade since I've been in the industry, and sort of said, you know, commercial real estate is very slow to adopt technology. You know, we're building this great tech. And I would sort of look back and say, yes, but like, has it been a strong enough need? Like, they all know yes, technology is coming and of course it's going to have an impact on this industry, like, if you're asked. But I just don't think there's been a strong enough reason to re. Like, for a lot of companies, for the mainstream companies to do that. I think the biggest reasons has been, like you said, to get ahead of the game. But most have been doing pretty well regardless just by doing what they've been doing. So I don't think it's been strong enough. I actually think, uh, this year is the biggest shift I've seen and I actually think it's a fundamental shift. I actually think that now commercial real estate for the first time is actually competing with a number of genuine competitors, like replacement competitors that it hasn't had before. And I don't think the pandemic created them. I think they were already there in various forms. But I think the pandemic polished them and pushed the mainstream. And the examples I would go through is flexible working was there, but now as it comes back in and people are sort of saying, what are we going to return to? Are we returning to the office? Are we working from home? There's another whole viable option there which is you either have sign an office lease, work from home, or do a bit of both work from home. You know, you've got those options there where before you just didn't have those options. And then everything else you've got layered on top of it. You've got your obviously online retailing which has been around for a while, but it's, it's really ticked over into mainstream in terms of, you know, delivering groceries and things, I think. So I just think it feels. And then esg, of course, layered on top of that is a whole nother factor. It just feels like to me that this year has really seen a big change and I feel like it's shifting from carrot to stick right now. Do you, would you share that view or am I?

Speaker C: Yeah, I do share that view. And I think there's a couple of points you made there that are really important. The first is that a lot of the technology that we've been delivering to the real estate industry isn't vital, isn't crucial. And so people have been slow to adopt it. And as you say, you know, people have been making a lot of money. But what's changing? What the first thing that's changing is, you know, you said the pandemic accelerated it, um, but people are now realizing that they have choices. And so rather than me commuting an hour or more into the office, I might be almost as productive or even more productive if I stay at home or I go to some third place. And so telecommuting has been around for, you know, 50 years, only now we're seeing it as being something that people would choose to do because they think that it's actually, you know, it's actually more productive. So that's one big thing that's happening and the pandemic accelerated it. Another big thing that's happening is that the, the nature of the workforce is changing. So, you know, any large building that you need to look after requires quite a few people to, to do that. And those people, generally speaking, be it the, you know, the cleaner, the building maintenance engineer, the people that look after the landscaping, they're not very well paid. Usually it's very low paid jobs and they're sort of hard work, not gravitating towards those jobs in the way that they used to. And so what will happen over time is that there will be fewer and fewer people that are available to do that job at a price that's economic for you, the person that runs the building or is a, uh, tenant of the building. And so you will have to look to automation. So that's the second big trend that's happening. We're going to have to do automation because we, there won't be a choice. And then the third trend that's happening is consolidation. So there are now people like pjim, like Blackstone, Allianz. These people own thousands, if not tens of thousands of buildings. And you cannot run a portfolio like that using Excel or pen and paper. You've got to go to the technology in order to be able to manage that. And so all of those things, plus sustainability are making it pretty much, in my view, inevitable that the technology will have to be, uh, deployed. And then the issue becomes, you know, if you're a small owner, if you're a tenant in a building, you know, how does that impact you and how long does that take? So sustainability, that is a freight train heading straight towards us. But for some of the other stuff, it's not clear whether the technology that you might deploy really makes a difference. We're in this interregnum period where we're not quite sure yet. You mentioned online commerce. I think you're absolutely right. It's totally mainstream. Everybody pretty much knows how to use it, but it's still less than 20% of total commerce.

Speaker A: People still like going to the store as well. So.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: So my point there is that even if we get to 5 or 10% adoption within our industry, that will still have been a tipping point, that will still have indicated that actually this thing works.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think another example there is the sort of tenant engagement apps, which some of them, uh, there's a lot of them, but some of them are brilliant and I know you've invested in some as well. And there's a big hope that that will draw people in and give them more amenity. And it's yet to be proven, but there's a very fast moving space. And Carolyn, I, I was quite keen to pull in there on, um, the second point Raj made there, just around the people, the CRE professionals. What are you seeing? I know you've seen a broad range of people over a long experience there in Australia, but what are you seeing in the market with the shifting nature of the roles, especially if you're someone relatively New coming into the industry, how should you be positioning yourself in your career going forward, given all the change?

Speaker D: I'll, uh, start with the first part of that question, which is what have I seen? What have I seen over the years? You know, when I first started in my role, I was an advisor on the exec team. I didn't even have a team. And then over the time that we deployed applications, we had to build up a support team of people who understood our tech and were able to then provide that end user support and administration function to the people who were actually using the products that we deployed. The next step that happened was that people out in the field needed to learn new skills in order to use the tech that we were giving them. So an example in facilities management, a role that would have normally been a very practical, skilled role. You know, you need a screwdriver in your back pocket and you know how to fix the chiller. Turned into a role where you needed to then wrangle with a different type of solution for managing all the work that needed to be done. Instead of using a whiteboard, you're using an online calendar and sending auto email reminders to the contractor actors that were coming in. So there was uh, an inflection point where we started looking for people that had a little bit of tech skill, not people with fat fingers who couldn't use the app.

Speaker A: Could have been a tricky transition, I think for some.

Speaker D: Could be, yeah. And I think as the years have gone past, we're now starting to see completely new roles. I noticed, uh, on our jobs board last week, we've just hired a Net zero carbon analyst. That role definitely did not exist a couple of years ago. And it's a new focus of analytical skills, understanding of sustainability background and using tech to enable all of that. That's a completely new skill set. I think our younger generations are uh, coming to us with a lot more of that skill set. They're tech native, they've grown up using mobile devices. So I think it's actually easier now to incorporate that tech, what do we call it, the digital literacy into a skill set that we're looking for.

Speaker A: I can imagine. I just sort of had this picture of uh, the original person in facilities management sort of 30 years ago. If there's an issue with uh, the H Ah Vac, the air conditioning, like, like getting in and clambering through the different shoots and like actually going in and fixing something. And now they'll probably like pull apart a panel first and actually start to like, look at, look at some code and actually start to look technically look at it rather than actually physically doing it. And that's just such a different skill set. And also remember, like, you know, the stats that would throw at you at school would be like, you know, seven and 10 of you or whatever the numbers were, will be working in jobs in 10 years time that don't exist today. And you're like, it just seems far out there. Like what? And then interesting, like trying to imagine what will those jobs be like, what is it that doesn't exist. And I think the net zero role, it'd be very hard to imagine that. But imagine in a couple years time, it'll be very hard to imagine imagine time without them as well. It's just. It has such a bigger level of importance and I think that is. I don't know where it came from. I think Raj, you described it as a freight train hitting the industry. I felt like real estate for most. Like I said, I've been in this around about 10 years and for most of the time it's had a pretty under the radar. Uh, it hasn't really. I mean all of the sort of emissions, if we speak specifically about like emissions and carbon rather than the rest of esg, it's had a bit of a free ride. I think most goes onto cars and oil and the things that are a bit more obvious because you can see smoke coming out of them. And in the stat that seems to be out there and accepted as it's responsible for 39 or 40% of global emissions. And I think everyone's now looking at going, well, that's a lot. And that's a change, right? That's a huge number. And that again, seems to be something that's been around a bit for the past few years. But this year just seems to be full steam ahead. And it's one of those things where in my mind things really move when the money talks. And now you're seeing tenants. You know, it always starts with corporates who have social responsibility or governments, but they're not signing leases, they won't sign a lease unless they can commit to a certain standard. We see it with our customers who generally aren't the big corporates. And quite often they just really, uh, it's a big challenge for them because they have no idea the performance of this building unless they go out and they get a contract or someone that can come in and do an assessment. But there can be like at the moment in different parts of the world. I know the uk, where I am at the moment it's a, it's a six to nine month waiting list to get that person and to do that assessment. And so for us as a software company, we see that as a, a big opportunity to provide, you know, another product, another service and do more for our customers. But also so a pretty big responsibility, right, to actually be able to help this industry and help our customers transition because they're going to have to like, it's not only is the right thing to do, they're going to have to. Because they'll be left with buildings basically, they'll be hard to tenants. I'm, uh, really interested in sort of hearing from you Raj, just in terms of like the solutions that we're seeing. I think it's because it's so new, there's generally quite a bit of a rush into an industry because there's opportunity. Right. People see that and it takes a little bit of time to sort of weed out okay, what's actually going to stick and what's real here. And what was people just sort of coming in to try and jump in on a hot area. Have you, you would have seen a lot, I'm sure. Have you seen a particular area or particular companies that are doing it well or you think will have strong.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think your point is well taken. It is early. So we do see a lot of different approaches and over time we'll see the ones that are successful, you know, they all succeed. The ones that don't work will hopefully fade away. Right now where I think the industry is, is we're in measurement mode. Um, so that sort of 39, 40% that you mentioned, it's not technically the building alone, right? So yes, the building of the building emits carbon, the use of the building emits carbon. But it's also the people going in and out, the energy usage. So the combination of that is this huge fraction of our global emissions. And so there's lots of places where you can push to try and improve, improve the numbers. Right now where we are in most places is what actually is my number. So you know, there's a various different ways of measuring it. There's a bunch of different standards that are coming out right now. But ultimately, you know, what you think about is the building itself and what's embodied in the building. The, the way you built it, what carbon deficit create was created from that. Then there's your usage of the building and then there's the wider usage around the building. So for example, for jll, you know, a lot of our employees work for other people maintaining their buildings. So within the widest definition of your measurement, you're including the work that they're doing over there in those buildings as well. So step one is you've got to be able to measure and say, okay, this is where I am right now. This is the baseline. So there's a number of companies that are trying to do that right now. I would say that it's m more consulting than software, but I think that's probably normal. And over time the smarts of the consultants gets embedded in the software and it becomes a product. And there's a certain amount right now of desire, especially from big companies, to have a well known branded consultant come along so that you can then turn to your investors and Wall street and say, well you know, McKinsey said this and everybody's like, oh well it must be true, right? Or PwC said this or whatever.

Speaker A: It might be big green techniques to that then.

Speaker C: Exactly. And so that's kind of where a lot of people are right now is like, how do I measure my emissions? One of the things that aligns very well with what you said earlier, Tom, which is about, you know, show me the money. That's why that's how pushes people is energy usage. So within the buildings, you know, that's one of the easiest things to measure. Energy usage, waste production, water usage. And so that's where a lot of people are starting is like, give me your utility bills and let me see where that is. And then let's plan. That's phase two. Let's plan to get from where you are now to where you need to be. And so that may mean reduction of energy usage, reduction of waste produced and so on. This is where the smarts come in because, you know, we probably almost certainly are not using energy and using the building in an optimal way. So there's an opportunity for us to use technology to say, well wait a minute, I can probably decrease my energy usage significantly by controlling it in a way that is smarter. If one part of the building is hot and one part is cold, can I pipe the hot air from one? One part to the other part is as opposed to heating one part and cooling another. Can I find devices, machines that I use within the buildings that are more efficient? We made an investment in a company called Turntide. That's what they do, more efficient motors. It turns out that some of this technology, back to our comment about assumptions, you know, is hasn't been changed in uh, like literally 100 years. So there are opportunities to improve these things. So once we have a plan in place, we need to be able to track that plan and we need to be able to essentially devolve these sort of, uh, high level of here's what I need to do into the actual concrete steps of what somebody needs to do. And so that's when you then move it into your workflow and work order management systems to track every single step and say, okay, am I doing all these things? And what's running behind us right now is not just, you know, we can save money on this, but also regulation. So, you know, in Europe, and I think in, in New Zealand and Australia as well, you've got some quite significant regulations where you'll have a stranded asset if you're unable and take that journey. And the US Is a little bit different, unfortunately. It's much more sort of state by state or city by city. But even there we see those regulations coming in. So all of the winds are heading in the right direction in sense of. Better get your act together now.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I saw. I think it's Boston. Boston, maybe New York have gone pretty strong in it. Just.

Speaker C: That's right. Boston, New York and San Francisco, I would say.

Speaker A: Yeah. So again, a lot of money in those areas, right? That'll um, A lot of headquarters. So you'll see change. It feels like, like the very first morning of day one, basically in this space and talking about a bit of a cricket analogy there, but, um, it feels like the first innings and it's going to be very, very interesting. I think we've talked about a lot of, A lot of challenges, I'd suppose. But we always, certainly in our company, we always talk about challenges being an opportunity. We see a lot of this disruption as effectively opportunity. There's a, you know, it's shifting from an asset class, commercial real estate, we believe in a. That's typically been quite passive, passive management into one that needs to be actively managed. And I think it makes sense to me. It makes a lot sense that logically if you're doing that, you would need to put technology and data and everything that goes along with that at the core of any strategy. But Carolyn, first of all, I'm interested in sort of what opportunities you see. But second, if I'm looking at it from a, uh, property side, you know, so if I, if I'm an owner or a manager, I'm in the property business, you can imagine, like, it's overwhelming, right? It can be overwhelming. Where do I start? Where do I put my first Foot. And maybe you've done a couple of things, but what would your advice be from someone who's been through that journey and they've been through and you've been on both sides of the fence, which I think is really, really useful and really valuable? You know, what should they be looking for? How should they go through and figure out what's right for them? Because there is a lot of noise. That noise is only going to grow as the uh, as prop tech itself grows.

Speaker D: I think the very first thing that any organization needs to do if they're starting to look for more technology is first look internal, not external. They need to look at their own business model, their own operating model and look for problems to be solved. Because in my experience, if you're putting in tech for the sake of it, no one will want to use it. And it usually doesn't get very far. So finding out what it is about your business that needs to be done better and then that's what should be driving your objectives in terms of looking for technology. So, um, the net zero carbon targets is a perfect example of a new problem that has arisen to be solved. It's not actually all that new, but the realization and the, the regulations that are now starting to come into play are making real live problems for organizations that need to try and meet those. Another example of problems would be flexible working and hybrid working. The concept is not new. It's been around for quite a few years and technology solutions to solve that have been around for a few years. But there's a lot of organizations that would have seen that and thought why would I ever need that three years ago? And then all of a sudden when you need to manage your space differently and you need to give people the opportunity to choose when they come in and decide if it's safe and know how many other people are there, all of a sudden there's a perfect problem there to be solved by a technology solution that probably couldn't have really been imagined very well, even five, 10 years ago. I think uh, understanding that people would want that and need that in their working lives was quite foreign.

Speaker A: I think your point there on actually understanding what the, what is the problem and really always coming back to that, like what's the problem we're trying to solve? Because it's very tempting to get into that space of like this technology looks really cool. Let's, let's throw this in because it looks great and we're going to love it and then actually you get it in and eventually it'll get, you know, gets rejected out of by the business if it's not really solving a problem that needs to be solved. Things Raj, we'll sort of. We're at time. Um, but I do want to. This is probably a little unfair and throw a little curveball because things are moving so fast, it's hard to predict. And this will be timestamped as a podcast. Everyone will be able to see it on this date. This prediction was made. But, you know, you're in a unique position at jll where you obviously represent a huge, massive company across a lot of areas and obviously very exposed to office as well. Very deep in office. How do you see the future of work, the return to office? It's. To me, it's still completely up in the air. I thought. Actually, I've been recently I've been in London for six months, but I was in New York last week. London feels to me as busy as it's ever been. We're in the center of the city. No vacancy rates are down a little bit, but the. The cafes are full, there's lines out the door at lunchtime. It does feel very hindy. I think it felt like I was down in the financial district in New York. It felt quite quiet compared to when I was there last time. I spent two months there right before the pandemic. It felt quiet. But, you know, in the city of New York is real estate, right? It's. I don't think this. It's. That is the financial hub. It's not. Not finance. I think it's real estate. That's its core. And so I imagine if occupancy is down a little bit, it's going to have a big impact on that city. So it's really interesting and you've got a broad view, but what's your take? If you had to say, where are we going to be in the next few years where we'll level out? How are you thinking about?

Speaker C: You know, I think it's a really good question to which I don't have a really good answer. If anybody on your podcast, uh, subscribes to our newsletter, you'll have seen, I think in the last episode or the week before, we had two articles that we highlighted. Highlighted. One was said, bosses are winning the war to get people back in the office. And the other article, which we put deliberately right next to it, said, you know, remote work is here to stay. People have changed forever. And I think the answer is. We don't know what. I think there are some things I think are reasonably clear. One is that, you know, the amount of office space that we have available today is probably more than we need, um, for the small, for the, for the new, for the immediate future. And so, and even the space that we need, it's not all configured in a way that might work for us going forward. Because now the question is, yes, people like to be in the office. Why do they want to be in the office? What are they going to achieve? So back when we didn't feel like we had a choice, it was like, you go to the office, you do your work at your desk. Yes. You have meetings and so on. Now you can do your work at your desk at home. So the question then becomes, why am I going to the office? I'm going to maybe collaborate with my team members to do something innovative. Maybe it's a celebration, maybe it's a cultural thing, bringing people together. So the reasons why you go to the office may have changed, in which case the office itself needs to change to adapt to that. And so that will take up some of the space that we're is currently empty. But then the rest of it might end up being co working space. It might be flex space. And we're making bets in those spaces as well. It may be that people want to be in the office, but the commute is turning them off. They spent more than two years not doing that, and the thought of going to do it again is too much for them. I know one group of people that are really keen to be in the office and that's the younger people. So the younger generation want to be in the office because they want to come and learn from other people and, you know, and have that experience. And so for them, I feel, you know, I feel it's a bit tough for them because they're not getting the, the training and the education, the informal aspect of it that they would do normally. So lots of different competing factors. New York is probably one of the most occupied cities for, for office in the US right now. Although what's interesting is it's one of the least occupied on Friday. San Francisco is genuinely quite low in terms of occupancy rates right now. But what's interesting is if you go to the entertainment districts where you find restaurants and bars and cafes, they're full. Right. So it's not that people aren't prepared to go out. It's not that people, rightly or wrongly, feel like Covid's over and they're going to hang out with people. They're just not going to the office. And so there's a big, you know, there's going to be a big existential crisis here. When I started in Venture 20 years ago, it was very clear that when a start took on a lease, it was a huge risk for them because they'd have to take on this five or ten year lease for a startup that had barely been around a year or two. It was crazy. And what happened over time is that startups just stopped having leases, they stopped going to offices. So a lot of startups today are remote first. That's how they started and they are, uh, building their culture and their company without being in an office. So there's a mismatch between what we in the industry are looking to sell and what people who are our customers are looking to buy. And so I think honestly the next five years we don't have an answer, not a clear answer in terms of how this goes. It's going to gyrate backwards and forwards. Power will be with the customer, power will be with the seller and we'll eventually find a new equilibrium. But there'll be some carnage between then and now.

Speaker A: Yeah, I tell you, I mean from our point of view, I totally agree with what you're saying. I was just thinking at the end there about our business and signing a long lease as a startup. I think we've been in London five or six years and I think we've moved about five or six times as we've grown and we're, we're literally moving this month again. Luckily only two floors down now. But we have outgrown our space. We thought we would last for a lot longer and without growing our office in Auckland. And I'm looking, I'm sort of going through it now with the team and we're looking at saying, yeah, I can fairly accurately understand we will be in two years. I think we have a rough idea. The team's probably going to double there, but three years, I don't know. Like three years could be, could be trick, like could be a lot more maybe. It's really hard and it's not real really. I mean a two or three at least is considered, was considered very short. But it's just a fast changing world and that flexibility is important to us. But so is having an office that feels like ours, where we collaborate and bring the team together. That works for us. So it's really interesting. And I'm also wondering what everyone in New York is doing on Fridays now. Like, are they all in the Hamptons? Are they, are they hungover or are they just. They're not in the office. Where are they? At the beach?

Speaker C: Uh, hopefully, yeah.

Speaker A: Hopefully they're online and working diligently from 8am I'm not sure. I think we'll find out a lot more over time where it'll play out. And like, again, last thing, I feel I agree with the juniors coming in as well, because there's gonna be some really interesting things that come out of this because they want to be there and they want to learn at least a lot too. But perhaps, uh, the experience people aren't there or they're not there as much because they have a responsibility to teach and absorb and share what they know as well. So I don't know there's positives and negatives, but that's also day one and I'm not going to predict it either. So thank you for, um. I don't think you gave us a prediction, but you gave a great answer regardless. A lot of content, context. Well, brilliant. We'll leave it at that. Thank you so much for, for, uh, joining. It's been a really fabulous conversation. I've enjoyed every moment of it. I hope you both have a great day.

Speaker C: Thank you, Tom. Time flew past. It was really great. Thank you so much for hosting us.

Speaker A: Of course. Thanks.

Speaker D: Thanks, Tom.

Speaker A: Thanks, Sean.

Speaker B: You've been listening to the Change Makers in cre, a podcast by really Least keep connected with us by subscribing to the show and sharing the episodes you love. That helps us continue bringing you the best stories about what's next for commercial real estate. Thanks for listening.