80. Built Different: The Ethos Story w/ Chelsea Ryckis & Donovan Ryckis

Speaker A: I mean, any plan sponsored not paying attention or taking, you know, single digit increases year by year, um, they're certainly headed for disaster.

Speaker B: What I learned through that process was you can run, but you can't hide from medical debt.

Speaker A: And that's how the industry has thrived. It's thrived off of, uh, a lack of data transparency, and then it's thrived because there is a security standard or there's a fiduciary standard at security securities. There's not one in insurance at all.

Speaker B: You're working against a machine like a giant, well established, antique, really well funded machine who have an immense amount of money and tenure that can sway plan sponsors.

Speaker C: The Business of Benefits is your no bs, uh, no sales guide to real

Speaker A: solutions, no gimmicks, just the truth about how to take control, transform your benefits, and care for your most valuable asset, your people.

Speaker C: If you're tired of the same old sales pitch and you're ready to rethink your benefits, this podcast is for you. The truth is out there. Are you ready to hear it?

Speaker D: Hello and welcome to the Business of Benefits podcast. I'm Austin Townen and I'm so excited that you're able to join us for this episode. This one is especially cool and because I had the opportunity to interview Chelsea Rikes and Donovan Rekus, who are leading the charge at Ethos Benefits and really unpack how they got started, the whole origin story, uh, to what they're seeing in the industry, to what, you know, employee plan, uh, sponsors can do better, and even what the future, the next five years looks like for the industry. So pretty exciting. I think you're really going to enjoy this. Um, and so I hope you do. But a quick sponsored message. I want to say knowledge is cool, but it's credibility that really gets you in the room. So there is the CEBS designation built with the Wharton School that gives you both of those things, group benefits, retirement, the whole thing. If you're serious about this industry, CEBS is your next tab. So check the, um, description below and you'll find a link for more information about that. And we appreciate you guys. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Today I'm joined by two people who I promise did not force me to say nice things about them. We've got Chelsea Reus, president of Ethos Benefits, and Donovan Reus, CEO of Ethos Benefits. Thanks for joining me today, guys.

Speaker B: Thanks, Austin. We're excited to be here with you. It's nice to be on the, uh, other side of the table here.

Speaker D: I know you guys Deserve it. I feel like, uh, you barely have to do this, so this is exciting. Switch roles. Um, and so what I'm particularly excited about with this conversation today is that you two are literally the reason this whole thing exists. Like the podcast, the company, the entire let's Fix Benefits mission. That's you guys. And so, um, I'm just so excited to interview you guys. So what I think would be great for any listeners who don't know is just to give a little background on each of you. So like, what's, you know, what's your background? How did Ethos, how did this thing get started? Um, I think that'd be, that'd be a really good way to start. So, Donovan, do you want to go first?

Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, I guess so. So, Donovan Arus, uh, CEO of Ethos Benefits. Um, I founded Ethos kind of on accident, so I'd actually worked my way up to being a securities advisor, which just means, you know, a financial advisor. And through that process I learned about what it means to be a fiduciary. And during that time you could either license as a fiduciary financial advisor or you could be a, ah, commissions based fiduciary advisor. And there is, you know, proposed legislation that everybody would have to be a fiduciary. And everybody was freaking out, out. And um, that didn't make a lot of sense to me. I didn't like how people were thinking. That was a problem. To act in the best interest of your client, be transparent, explain and show how much you're making. Kind of just made sense to me. Um, so I went down that path and then, um, you know, was really happy and really, uh, happy with kind of where I'd gotten it started to become very lucrative. But it, I kind of came to find out it wasn't like my highest and best purpose after I saw the conflicts in healthcare. So I got to work with the same population. You know, plan sponsors and business owners would work on a more urgent problem with more conflicts, less transparency, all that kind of stuff. And kind of just started running that way.

Speaker D: Yeah, that's interesting because you don't run into many people who are in one industry and they transfer to a totally different one. And there's a ton of crossover.

Speaker A: Um, no, there's almost no crossover other than, uh, the type of, you know, the client Persona that I was working with. Right. I decided I wanted to work with business owners because they had more complicated needs and on like, financial services. When they're working with a, uh, commission based advisor, they're taking the shortest and most direct route to compensation, which is selling a product. But a business owner has much more complex needs. So whether that was combining 401ks and pensions or working with attorneys on different trust structures, um, there was a lot of things I could do where I could show them, hey, before we even start, like, this is the impact we made. And then do all the investments and kind of the same thing on benefits in the sense that, like, a broker gets straight to the commissionable product, they take the shortest route there. I mean, they have to. That's how the industry is set up for them. And I saw that. I'm like, wait a minute. If we take a step back and we look at this and we figure out the claims, we figure out where the problems are, we fix them, like, we're not selling products where we can actually solve, you know, the problem. So that's about the only way I could say they're relatable. But, uh, other than that, yeah, quite different.

Speaker D: Yeah. And I think that's so interesting. I mean, like, I've moved around a lot of industries and different, you know, uh, different placements and places I've worked. And it's. It's cool to see, um, you know, you able to transition to this. But, I mean, over the last, you know, 15 years, other than, um, Chelsea, you and I becoming BFFs, like, how did this. How did this start? You know, like, how did you get started in all this?

Speaker B: Me? Okay. Yes. So I'm from Canada. I played college softball here in the US that's how I came to the United States my senior year. I was unfortunately hit in the head with a softball, cleared to play too soon, and experienced the American healthcare system firsthand. What I learned through that process was, you can run, but you can't hide from medical debt. Um, the bills followed me across the border. I had to defer medical school. Um, it was pretty traumatizing part of my life, honestly. But the silver lining is, again, I got to experience what so many do when they try to interact with the healthcare delivery and the healthcare financing side of this business. Um, shortly after, maybe not so short, a few years after, I went into nonprofit thinking I'd never be able to go to medical school, and kind of just gave up on those dreams a little bit. And how else can I help some people? So I went into nonprofit. And one of the sponsors of the big event that I raised money for was actually Colonial Life, which is a voluntary, um, enhanced benefits carrier. And they convinced me one day to come Work for them. And it was actually kind of funny. Um, the nail in the coffin, if you will, in my nonprofit dreams, was the bonus check that, uh, I waited for after I raised a ton of money for this organization. And six months later, a bonus check came in. And any idea how much it was, Austin?

Speaker D: I mean, uh, it's a nonprofit, so I could take a stab. But, uh, are they doing good things or bad things here? That's really the question.

Speaker B: $10.

Speaker D: Oh, let's go. Yes.

Speaker B: I saved this check. And then when I started working with Donovan, he actually framed it for me, which was super sweet. But, um, that was the moment where I was like, oh, shoot. Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Nobody's gonna tell me my worth again. I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. Like, let's just do it. Colonial life was like, come on. So went and did that. Was the youngest agency owner in the country at the time, and then pretty quickly met Donovan, and, um, heard about his mission, and we started partnering on some cases. And I just remember thinking, like, and this all makes so much sense, like, we have this saying. And by we, I mean Donovan and I stole it, which you'll see is kind of a pattern here in our. Our business. But he used to say, if everybody's going that way, I'm going this way. And that's always how I felt just as an individual. Right. Like, I want to do things differently. I want to be up to something bigger. Um, and then when I heard about the. The mission and what he was building, and he, you know, offered me to come on as partner. Didn't think twice.

Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, that's. That's so cool. I. I love also that you have. You have that framed. Is that just a daily reminder?

Speaker B: Uh, it is.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: That nobody can tell you what you're worth. And also, it's a really good reminder as somebody who employs others. It really is. I say this all the time. It's like my greatest honor and responsibility in life is that other than being a mom now and a wife, but is employing the people who serve the mission of Ethos.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: I take that very, very seriously. So this is just a good reminder how I want to treat them, you know, and how I want to show up for those people, too.

Speaker D: Yeah. No, that's awesome. I mean, so I've been with Ethos almost a year now. I think it's a year next month. Um, so this has been. Yeah, yeah. You know, exactly. You're such a good administrator. I'm so. You're amazing. Um, I, like, ask you every day, like, hey, when's this person's birthday? Um, so amazing. Yeah. And in that time it's been really, really fun and exciting to learn about, you know, the benefits business and how this all works. But alternatively how you guys came on the scene and completely changed things. Right. And um, I know there was, you know, I'm late to the game. I know there's potentially a mission growing well even before you started. But like, you guys have really done a lot, um, to change how this whole industry works. And so a lot of what the marketing that we um, see or a lot of the content we see is about how broken the benefits model really is. And so I mean, how would you describe the, you know, the state of affairs with benefits in that model and what really frustrates you two with it? Donovan, do you want to go for this one?

Speaker A: Um, I mean it's certainly broken and I think plan, uh, sponsors are at different points of realizing it. Um, you know, the future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed. So some people see it, some people do not yet see it. Some people have taken action five to 10 years ago, some people are not going to take action for five to ten years from now. That future is here. Um, and for the plan, I mean any plan sponsored not paying attention or taking, you know, single digit increases year by year, they're certainly headed for disaster. And you know, one of the simplest exercises as a securities advisor that you do is you show somebody their historical performance. You know, you talk about when they want to retire, you project that forward, you do different simulations and that's never done on the healthcare side yet. It's the second biggest expense for any business. And if they just looked at their actual like what they've currently been experiencing and projecting that uh, forward for five to 10 years, they would freak out because they'd realize like, oh, we're four years away from like just not being able to pay this at all or making it to uh, such a high cost where nobody can afford it. So for 2026, average costs of a family of four, $37,824. That's the average cost in 2026 for a family for, on an employer's foster health care plan. We are there, it's done, it's broken. Right. So it's just a, uh, matter of getting to an actual strategy today and not tomorrow, not next year, not extranewal.

Speaker D: Right. And I mean that grows every year. I mean what is our average cost growth every year?

Speaker A: It's pretty large I mean, so for 2025 it was 7.2. And then I saw some reports today that they're projecting for 9% for 2026. So I mean, this is the same and in many years a lot higher than what a employee could expect to get out of their 401k.

Speaker D: Yeah. Which is, I mean, it's crazy, right? Because obviously we could have the argument of like, how does income keep up with these rising costs? But then also, um, you know, like, how does one even afford this? And at what point are we priced out and are we already there? You know, and so I think these are awesome that we're able to tackle this and hopefully try to change a lot of this, I think in your guys. Has it been 15 years? I think it's been a while, right? You guys have been doing this for a bit.

Speaker A: About 15 years.

Speaker D: Okay. Um, during that time, I mean, what would. Chelsea, what do you think has been maybe the hardest thing that has happened and maybe also the easiest? What has been some wild discoveries through all this time?

Speaker B: We have so many. But if I to like conceptualize it, it would be the hardest thing is you're working against a machine, like a giant, well established, antique, really well funded machine, um, of hospitals, carriers, large publicly traded brokers who have an immense amount of money and tenure that can sway plan sponsors. Um, we've seen things like, oh, well, we'd love to do business with you, but so and so is a, you know, seven figure sponsor of our sporting events or, you know, we get box tickets here and our broker does this and this. And I think the most frustrating thing is just the misalignments that exist. And the fact that we know Arissa since 1974 requires that plan sponsors act as fiduciaries for their participants. And when you see over and over and over again these decisions being made that, you know, really just breach that duty and breach that trust. When you know from experience over a decade that there's a much better way to do this. It doesn't even have to be with ethos. That's not the part that bothers me. Um, that's what's so hard I think about this is it's like you're going up against giants and such a status quo mentality and it takes a long time to chip away. Like it literally was 10 years ago that Donovan, when I joined and Donovan was like, hey, this is our positioning. We're going all in on this idea and lawsuits are coming and nothing was happening, you know, and we're leading with this fee based fiduciary conversation and nobody really cared. We kept doing it, um, thankfully and now here we are. And now everybody apparently is a fiduciary, which is a conversation for another day. Uh, Donovan. It's always like, who cares? But it actually is irritating the out of me lately that all of a sudden, you know, some of these brokerages, um, out there have fiduciary arms and yet we see their contracts and we're like, that's not what that is. But um, yeah, that's my answer. Really long winded answer.

Speaker D: I imagined a, uh, like when you're talking about this old machine, it's a, it's a steam powered machine, right? Like um, and it, they need, it needs updating in so many ways. It really doesn't have anyone in mind except how it lines specific pockets. Right. And so I don't know how any industry really survives or thrives in that way. Right. Like eventually in any capitalistic environment, right. That never happens. Uh, like you are priced out the lobby.

Speaker B: Lobby groups in healthcare alone. Nevermind. I mean we could talk specifically about pharmacy. Look at what's happening all over the country and the amount of money that's being spent to protect the big three PBMs. It's, it's unbelievable. So, yeah, I mean you really have to have some grit to be able to be on this side of the industry, I would say. And you know, we have to think about that when we hire people too. Like you got, you got to be ready for a fight every single day.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And you, you mentioned, um, I mean we use the word fiduciary a ton. Right? Like we love. That's. It's our favorite word, I think.

Speaker B: Is a company actually doing it?

Speaker D: We're actually doing it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Well, I think, I think defining what that really means, right. I think there's no one better to answer this question than Donovan, the saint of fiduciary, the fiduciary himself. I think you, I think you actually invented the word. To my understanding, Donovan.

Speaker A: This is when I, when I kind of went through securities. Like I didn't know what it was at that point in time. And I don't think a lot of the general public did until you started seeing investment corporations commercials about fiduciaries, which probably started about 10 years ago. Um, and when you hear the definition it, you're almost like, well that's not that special because you would assume you're already getting that treatment and behavior from the people you hire. Um, but you are not. Um, so you know three basic things. First one is that you will always act in the best interest of your client. Um, second thing is that you'll always be transparent with the data and decisions, not having any misaligned incentives. Um, and that goes towards number three, which is being transparent with all your compensation. How do you make money when you make money, when you might make more money, how much money that is, making sure they understand that equation. So there's no kind of perverse incentives that are driving behavior of one recommendation over the other. And you're kind of not no longer acting in the client's best interest because this one means 25% more compensation for you than that one. Right. Um, and that's how the industry is thrived. It's thrived off of, uh, a lack of data transparency to have any type of conversation that makes sense. And then it's thrived because there is a security standard or there's a fiduciary standard in securities. There's not one in insurance at all. So the way it works in insurance is if there's a product and there's a price and the client agreed to pay it, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: The broker could have loaded it 100%. Right. But it's a product that's licensed and registered in that state to be sold as an insurance product. The client agreed to pay the price. The broker doesn't have to disclose or explain or, you know, position other ones. Like, as long as they didn't fundamentally misrepresent it, it can be whatever they want. And that's okay.

Speaker D: I mean, transparency is so huge. Right? I mean, we talk about your background, and let's say we did an investment. I'm like, hey, you know, here's half a mil. And you tell us, you tell me that we each made, you know, 50k or something at the end of this, uh, agreement. And I'm like, I don't care. I made 50. Uh, you know, and you told me you that made the same. And that's great, whatever. Um, but when you don't tell me, then we have questions about, like, well, I only made 10,000. And then I find out later you made 90. That becomes a different conversation. Right. And I think that's kind of the problem at hand. Like, no other industry does this.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly the reason I started down the fiduciary licensing path and got my Series 65 as a securities advisor instead. Because, one, I didn't like how everybody else was acting, but also, I was like, all Right. I plan to go at it alone instead of taking it off. Like, what I should have done is, you know, go to, like, Edward Jones or Raymond James or Merrill lynch or Morgan Stanley. Right. That would be the logical thing to do. However, I already saw enough of financial services to understand that there is always going to be those conflicts where they say, position this, this is what you're selling. This is the bonus. This is what we're going to benchmark you off of, uh, whether or not it was what I believed to be good or what was actually good for the client. So kind of when I, when I started, I was like, you know what? If nothing else, if I can be 100% honest in the conversation about how their current portfolio works and how I would like to structure it for them, right? Because, remember, I'm, um, not taking that short route to the commissions. So I'm looking at the things like, hey, I think you need an irrevocable life insurance trust. I think you need a revocable trust. We could put a pension plan here now. You could defer 250,000. Like, I could open up my mind to solutions to solve for them. And if nothing else, if I could just go out and explain that to people I knew, I could pick up more clients and replace financial advisors that probably I had no business doing. But at the end of the day, they were lazy and kind of working for themselves because they were taking that short route to the money rather than using all of their brain and all of their knowledge.

Speaker D: I mean, how hard, I mean, how difficult on a daily basis is that to explain to employers? Like, let's say employers listening right now? How do you construct that message so that they understand, uh, the difference?

Speaker A: Um, it can be hard. It was hard in the first couple years because you can sound conspiratorial. And most people at least, like the person hired. And, you know, doesn't mean they're terrible people. Some, some of them just never investigate or, oh, I, you know, they never look at what would it look like to change PBMs. I hear it's a big problem in the, in the industry. Like, some people have zero curiosity to the point. It's astound. Um, so it doesn't always mean they're doing the wrong thing, but, like, the easiest way to show them is to just kind of do an actual cost analysis, do a historical projection, and just figure out, like, hey, is this okay? Have you looked at the data this way? Because there is a lack of data and transparency, but there's also a Lack of perspective, which is what the consultant should be doing. Right? Because when you do get claims reports, let's say you get a 25 page claim report, it's summarized in a way that a person who's not in our role has no perspective of that. Like they don't understand, well, I paid this much for a claim, but it should have cost this much. Right. Like there's, there's nothing to kind of benchmark it to, to, to determine reasonableness. So rather than like come off conspiratorial, it's very easy to just to kind of start to open up their mind with actual performance. And then a couple ideas on reducing the claim cost and then therefore the premium. And they're usually, oh, okay, that makes perfect sense. Actually, I think over the years we've made that conversation simpler and simpler, um, to just think of it as you would anything else. And then they're like, oh yeah, like. Because the, the hard part is like, there are tons of options. There are a lot of ways to improve a plan. Doesn't mean they have to do all of them in the first year. Right. Like there are small steps we could take and then we could have a five year plan to progress it and make the plan better every year and continue to decrease premiums in a way that is attainable and not disruptive. Right. So, so what Chelsea is referring to is kind of the risk conversation that we have with every client, you know, just talking about health care risk. And we kind of just say, look, there's only four things you can do really with any type of risk. In this case, you know, healthcare risk. Right. When we're talking about claims, claims are a dollar amount, right. And that's the risk that is internal to a health care plan. Because when your broker says your premiums are going up, why are they going up? They're going up because claims. Right. But an important distinction we start with is a claim is a dollar, it's not a condition. So what we need to make sure is that we're paying fair prices for these claims because we're not going to change the employee these conditions. So there is absolutely something you can do because a claim is different than a condition. Whereas most brokers will look at it and say the claims are the claims. And that just means tough shit, like there's nothing you can do about this.

Speaker D: Deal with it.

Speaker A: Employees have not, um, the case. So we're talking about claims and there's only four things you can do, right? So the first thing you can do is reduce the Cost of claims. Second thing you can do is see if there's places where you can outright avoid that risk and claims. Third thing is retain. So you retain some of that risk as a company. And then the fourth thing, the most expensive thing you could do is transfer. And that is what a broker is selling you, right? They're selling you a risk transfer. So the bigger the risk transfer, the bigger the commission. Right? And again to that idea of straight to the dollars. The only method of compensation, compensation is in the risk transfer. So what we find often is that discovery of health, of uh, risk reduction, risk avoidance is missing entirely because the broker is doing what is their mandate. They're going straight to the transfer. That's where my dollars come from. Let's get there and move on to the next one.

Speaker D: It uh, truly would not be, uh, any sort of episode unless something technically went wrong. And so Chelsea's joining us on her phone now. Way, uh, to go. You're scrappy, you find a solution. So always. Yeah. Okay. Well, I just had a couple more questions for you guys. So, um, you know, we were really getting into like the four parts of, you know, like, uh, claims and risk and, you know, what to do with this. And so you guys have had, um, you know, a lot of time to experience healthcare in America. Especially you, Chelsea. It sounds like that's even, you know, part of your origin story in a lot of ways. So how do you, how do you, chels, how do you stay motivated working in a space that feels just, you know, so messed up?

Speaker C: You need to surround yourself with people who are as scrappy as you are. That type of determination, um, the grit, the unwillingness to accept the answer. No. Um, I changed our hiring process about six years ago now. And it's values based. And we're always looking for people who are up to something bigger, like in their core know and believe that there's a better way to do this and that they can be a part of that solution. And that alone has just made this journey so much more rewarding and so much easier too. When you're working with a team like that. Um, the other thing I'd say is celebrating our wins, like even a small win, um, getting renewals down, getting access to data and a contract, getting the small little things we make a big point of celebrating. And then, um, something else that I think is, is good is like, you have to remember, like I said earlier, it's, it's tough sometimes to go up against this industry and to say, you know, what industry that's Been here hundreds of years. You're doing it wrong. We've got a better idea. Right. Um, being the disruptors, if you will. It's not. It's not for the faint of heart. So having fun with it. Like, if we're not having fun, what are we doing? Um, to looking for those moments to. To just laugh, have a good time with it.

Speaker D: Yeah. Try to make an intense subject lighter. I think there's not a webinar in which I don't say something similar to that. How can we take this really difficult to understand subject and really break it down, but then also how can we enjoy talking about some of this hard stuff that really affects people's lives? Right. Um, so I think it's awesome. I mean, being a part of Ethos has been really exciting to experience a lot of that, too, about how we're actually trying to do the right thing. And so anyway, if you're listening to this, us, and there are other companies like us that are trying to do the best thing. Um, and so I think that's really cool. The last thing I want to ask you guys is, uh, for both of you and Donovan, if you want to tackle this one first, um, but the next five years, um, where do you see health benefits, the whole industry at large going, and how does Ethos fit in?

Speaker A: That's a tough question. Um, everything's moved a lot slower than I had predicted. So, like, you know, when I was bringing Chelsea in, I, you know, I was defending companies against 401k lawsuits by making good choices and kind of having a better process and the fiduciary standard within those decisions. So, like, when I saw that basically the fraud, waste and abuse was like 10 times what it is on 401ks, I was just like, oh, man. Like, lawsuits are gonna happen. They're like, this is coming and it's gonna be so bad. And it took like, eight years before the first one from when I started, and I started saying that and seeing it. So I think in general, things have moved really slow. So my best attempt at, uh, where things will go, we've. We've definitely seen it over the past, um, three years, where finally this concept of being a fiduciary healthcare consultant is picking up steam. And people are starting to understand that because they're getting such poor results doing it the other way, which is not understanding their benefits, not understanding compensation, and just making simple decisions without a real process or, you know, auditing structure, contract negotiations, like, all the things that are missing. Um, so I hope to see that continue. Um, there's not going to be any kind of legal requirement like there is on securities. So, like, the obligation still is going to exist for the plan sponsor to hold any consultant to that actual standard, which is sad. Um, so we're going to see a lot of people saying it, but not living it, which is certainly something we see. I see it a lot with PBMs. Um, I see it with brokers who are using it as a buzzword without a true understanding of what it means. Um, and that'll continue because there's not going to be an obligation to hold people to it. So, uh, yeah, hopefully that continues. I think plan sponsors need to hold brokers accountable in contracts better, and there needs to be a more thorough contract review for every vendor. Um, terms, you know, prices, commissions, all that kind of stuff need to be thoroughly reviewed. That continues to be where we uncover all the tricks where we get our wins. You know, to Chelsea's point, like, celebrating our wins. For us, that's not like, hey, we want a new account. It's like, hey, we got this out of the pbm. We found that. Found this hidden charge. We got a performance guarantee. You know, we did a claims, uh, review, and we knocked the renewal down. This. Um, so I don't know if that's where the. Where the, where the industry is going. I think that's where it needs to go. But certainly we're going to hear the F word used, uh, as a buzzword a lot more. And, uh, I hope that goes well for anyone listening.

Speaker D: That's fiduciary. Uh, for sure, yes.

Speaker A: Uh, that F word.

Speaker C: Unless I'm speaking, then it's something else.

Speaker D: I mean, you speak to time, Donovan. If we look at, let's say, the 2008 housing crisis, how long it took for the government and for these big banks to acknowledge that there was a problem and how long it really took for them to even be honest about this information. And we're starting to see the government really start to do more in that way. We're seeing Congress make a lot of moves and try to do transparency. But are these big insurance companies, uh, how long will it take for them to acknowledge the problem? I think is big question.

Speaker A: So, yeah, we are, we are the, The. The responsibilities on. On the plan sponsor. So there has been some good legislation passed. At the same time, they're gutting the very entities that audit and hold people accountable to this. A lot of it goes under hhs. Um, so there's less power, less manpower, less money to those kind, um, of agencies that are responsible for seeing oversight. And then to your point, like the insurance companies have the biggest lobby, like it's the biggest pool of funds to really mitigate any of this stuff. So I definitely wouldn't rely on, you know, legislation for what's right. I do think litigation will probably lead the charge for where the industry is moving. So the private sector, you know, more capitalism, I think will, will be the leader over any measure of compliance.

Speaker D: Yeah. And Chelsea, do you have anything to add as far as a five year trajectory?

Speaker C: I think what Donovan said is spot on. Um, I wish that there was going to be like a license requirement for fiduciary advisors, but like you said, that's going to take a lot longer. Um, I do think we'll continue to see the PBM legislation evolve and that will be probably the most impactful thing over the next five years. Um, I do think that other legislation will be a lot slower to follow, but there's a lot of hype behind PBMs with Mark Cuban and Trump Rx and all these other things. So I think we'll see the most rapid changes there. I also think that we're going to continue to hear a lot of noise, um, around the term fiduciary, specifically from brokerages. And I think my call to employers would be to really, really vet the people that you're working with. Even if they claim to have, you know, if they have fiduciary marketing, like ask them what that means. Ask to speak to clients that they've taken through a process. Because as a fiduciary under erisa, it's less about working with all these fiduciary vendors and it's more about having a process of due diligence and prudence and things like that. So, um, I think it's going to be exciting over the next five years. Yeah.

Speaker D: And I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to being a part of it with you guys. So it's been such an, like an amazing journey the last year learning from you too. And um, yeah, I just really appreciate you guys. And for everyone listening, I'm so glad you got to, um, experience all the knowledge that we can steal from Chelsea and Donovan. And um, if you haven't already, like, subscribe, do all the things and uh, hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll catch you next time. See you guys.

Speaker C: Thanks, Austin.

Speaker B: That's awesome.