S11 Ep 05: How to fix people issues brilliantly with Kieran Mander

Speaker A: The business people were thinking it's all about money and the numbers. And actually, in reality it was the. Some of that intangible stuff that HR really needs to own and look after and nurture in order to make a difference in the business. And so that's the stuff that the secret sauce almost that makes the difference for the business.

Speaker B: Hello, Helen here and welcome to the Business of Being Brilliant, where I explore how to create brilliant organizations where people deliver better, feel happier and, um, stick around for the longer term. I'm an organizational expert and the author of two Business the Future of Time and People Blue. You can find out more@helenbedham.com now let's crack on with this week's episode. What happens when you walk into an organisation and realise the people issues run deeper than you thought? In today's episode, I'm unpacking what it takes to fix complex people challenges, from diagnosing the real problems to turning chaos into clarity. Together with my guest, we'll explore what an interim HR leader should focus on first. How to handle messy structures and broken recruitment processes, and how to spot the sharks in the tank. Joining me in the studio today is Kieran Mander, a fellow of the CIPD and a recognized authority in international HR coaching and people strategy. With more than 20 years of experience across a range of sectors and including a decade working in the Middle East, Kieran has played pivotal roles in everything from startups to FTSE 100 firms. He's led major change programs, served as a committee vice chair, and is now co authoring the HRBP handbook, sharing best practices and fresh thinking to champion better work and working lives. Kieran's expertise lies in translating complex objectives into practical, impactful strategies that truly make organizations better places to work. Welcome to the business of being brilliant, Kieran.

Speaker A: Cool. Thanks, Helen. I feel like I need a little Helen with me everywhere. That sounded like a great.

Speaker B: You'd be surprised how often podcast guests say to me afterwards, could you just send me that version of my bio you used? Uh, so that's nice to hear. I feel like I've. I've, um, introduced you in a way that works for you.

Speaker A: So that's good. You don't realize sometimes, especially doing interim, how many experiences you get access to. And then when you pile them all up and you start talking about all that experience, it's actually really, really interesting. So, uh, yes, good to reflect.

Speaker B: Yeah, I get that it's quite hard to zoom out and, and talk about all of that in a very succinct way. Isn't it? And I'm thinking with the book that you're writing for me, having written business books, that's the big challenge is to go from all that depth and richness of what's in the book or what's in your career and summarizing that in the 1 minute version or the 20 minute version. Yeah, it's quite a challenge.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You've got all that to look forward to. Great. Well, so today we're going to be chatting about fixing people issues brilliantly and particularly through the lens of being an interim HR leader where you may not have, you know, the greatest length of time to really make an impact. So yeah, I mean, just briefly, you've held a number of interim HR roles, is that right? Is that something you kind of specialize in at this point in your career?

Speaker A: Yeah, and I kind of fell into interim by chance really. So when I make the move back from being in the Middle east and working out in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, I'd come back and taken a few roles that ended up being quite short term. They were always pitched as interim to go perm. Um, and that's how it ended up playing out. The last seven years have taken probably about 15, 15 or so roles in different businesses. Ovo Energy, Virgin Media and um, more recently a recruitment company, Danny Sullivan Group. So some interesting, interesting brands there, um, that have all had different journeys and different, different contexts to work in. But, but very often the problem is the same. It's either a, ah, people problem, uh, and it's the capability of the individuals or it's mechanical kind of operational problems that need fixing and it's the HR plumbing that needs to be sorted out and going in, it's like being a doctor remote going in, diagnosing what's not working and then how do we fix that? The problems are often similar but how you fix them needs to be changed and updated for the context that you're working in. So um, that's always the fun part, figuring out how you do that in the right way. It's kind of the best, biggest impact and a positive impact on how you do that as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really interesting. And just real problem solving focus like, well, understanding the landscape and then problem solving as much as you can. And I have this image of my head of kind of like an hr, ah, superhero flying into land in an alien environment with these massive expectations from organisation you're joining that you know you're going to transform stuff. What are those expectations like on your side, but on their side you know, what could you realistically achieve in a, in a time limited tenure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's always really interesting. I think sometimes the element of being an interim, um, you can see where they're at in terms of the onboarding process. So um, some positions you end up having a chat on the Monday, ah, a conversation on the Wednesday, perhaps an in house meeting on the Friday and then the following Monday you're in starting other businesses. It takes a lot more time and effort. There's testing and are you going to fit the culture? And so you can kind of see a little bit around how the business, how sophisticated they are before you even onboard. So that as part of the onboarding process is interesting and you get a feel at that point to kind of go, right, what kind of a state are we in here? And you can, you can hear some of the messaging come through from different people as you're speaking interim. I think people don't really understand sometimes they kind of go, I've got a little thing that needs fixing over here and it could just be a cultural change or a program or a project or it could be that I've got the entire thing to fix. And so it can be very varied depending on what you, what you need. And so the toolkit and the skill set that you have, you kind of have to adapt based on what they need. But that element of flying in as a superhero is kind of, it's kind of fun sometimes because it is, it does feel like that sometimes because they're like, oh good, you've landed great. Right, here's all the stuff that we need you to get on with and there's an entire to do list that is probably two years worth of work and if you can just do that in a month or so, that'd be great.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think the first thing, I tend to go through a bit of a process of just listening and so goes back to my very early days at Tesco when you were going into shops and diagnosing cultural issues really and you do some focus groups and you speak to the relevant stakeholders and you get a picture. I use nlp, a bit of a meta map essentially to kind of create a diagnostic of what's going on. And some people kind of go, oh, it's this over here. But when you get underneath it, it's actually leadership or culture or a process or something that's not quite working. I probably get to about two or three weeks in and I've done all the diagnosing and listening and then I have a couple of nights, sleepless nights usually, where I kind of processing it in my brain and it kind of works through. And then all of a sudden I kind of go, right, these are things that need fixing, and this is the order that they need fixing. Because you need to be able to think, think about how one thing impacts something else as you're, as you're walking and working through. And then it's a little bit around creating the narrative and the storytelling that goes with that and why you're going to focus on one particular thing, especially if they've got different views in their head as to why you're going to focus on something else that will, in the long term, fix what they're looking for.

Speaker B: So interesting to hear how you, uh, approach it. And I imagine that middle bit where you've got your sleepless nights and you're trying to make sense of the picture you've uncovered, you have to kind of sit with that discomfort for a bit and give it, uh, enough time to work out what the priority is. And as you say, it sounds like you take a very systemic view. You're not just trying to cherry pick one thing over here and another thing over there. You're trying to see, well, if we make this change, you know, how does that affect X, Y, Z over here? So it sounds like that's a really crucial bit of sitting with that messiness and not trying to leap to an instant answer that's going to make everyone go, oh, great, perfect, yes, crack on.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I talk about it on my website as connecting the dots. Um, and it's like you can see the pattern, but you can't really see the picture that they're trying to create. And you can see the bits that are working, but they're perhaps not all connected or people or the processes that aren't connected in the right way. So sometimes the job is about being able to see that bigger picture and then being able to create the lines and the, uh, story and the methodology that comes along with that from a systemic process to fix the, to connect the dots, as you say.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that that narrative about the why is incredibly important because your diagnosis, as you allude to, might look different to why people brought you in or what they thought you should focus on. How do you deal with that? Like when you've diagnosed the big issues, if that's different to what the leaders you're working with were expecting or hoping for?

Speaker A: Yeah, and that's the tough part because that comes back down to the HR role in its purest form around how you manage your stakeholders. And I mean fundamentally, if they're paying you to come and do a job and that's all they want you to go and do, then that's what you have to go and do. But I think for me, there's looking at the data, uh, there's looking at the feedback, there's looking at the, the overall macro picture that you paint and share back to them to kind of go, right, you can fix the symptom over here, but if you really want to fix the problem, then you need to look over here and it's this bit that will need, that will need help and have the biggest impact for you. Um, and in some cases they'll, they'll think about it, kind of go, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. In other cases they'll be like, no, no, I really just want that thing fixing. Really good example. When I was at um, Rails bank, we were hemorrhaging people. 40% turnover in the, in the business. It was massive, um, fintech startup, really exciting business. Lots of, lots of technical people that knew what they were doing, but the vision wasn't quite there. Now the, I remember the CEO was going, we just need to pay them more. And we were paying people, I think when we look at the data, about 30% more than the industry average. So we were kind of really attracting great people, great minds in, but we weren't keeping that them. And so we did a bit of exit interview diagnosis, we did some focus groups of people and actually the feedback was that I'm not able to add value. I don't know what we're trying to do here. We haven't got our vision and mission corrected properly. So I remember being in the board meeting and kind of giving the feedback back and they were, they were adamant we should be paying one. I'm like, no, no, the money's not going to make any difference. You pay them as much as you want. But until we fix the vision and the mission piece, people don't know how they think fit into the organization. And what's happening is they're getting frustrated and leaving. So we focus a little bit more on that vision and mission piece to kind of help put things together. And that's the bit that made the difference. Now attrition rate came down from 40. I wouldn't say, I'd like to say it came down to zero, but it wasn't quite that exciting. But, uh, it definitely made a huge difference in the, in the 40% that we were leading over nearly half of our population. So stabilize the business.

Speaker B: Yeah, just help people understand the part that they're playing there and how that connects to what the organisation's trying to do. It's such a vital bit for people in their work lives. Right. Without that missing link, you don't really feel you have that connection to the business you work for or um, that motivation to stay for the longer term.

Speaker A: Yeah, and it's the business. People were thinking it's all about money and the numbers and actually in reality it was some of that intangible stuff that HR really needs to own and look after and kind of nurture in order to make a difference in the business. And so that's the stuff that their secret sauce almost that makes the difference for the business.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, really interesting. I get that as well. It kind of boils down to people's experience and you can fund new systems, you can fund, you know, new programs and everything, but if people's kind of basic day to day experience isn't, you know, leaving them at the end of the day going out with, you know, feeling good about their day, then that's the thing you need to pay attention to more than anything else. Right.

Speaker A: So yeah, use your uh, superhero analogy. It's almost having that X ray vision of being able to see through the, see through the problems and kind of go, right, this is actually the issue that we've got here as opposed to the other stuff that people think it is.

Speaker B: Yeah. I was definitely thinking when you were describing the role of an intromit child leader earlier, I was definitely thinking, I was thinking more physiotherapist where, you know, you go in because you've got a pain in your lower leg and then they, you know, check out all your bones and your alignment and say, well, yes, but the problem is in your shoulder, so we're going to work on your shoulder. So I was definitely going along similar m medical lines. And what do you do? And has it ever happened that the organization you join, which may be through your kind of recruitment and onboarding process, you know, sounded in reasonable shape with a clear idea of what they wanted to focus your support on and then you discover that it's just a bit of chaos and so much needs fixing and is in all a bit of a mess. Has that ever happened and what, what would you do if it did?

Speaker A: No, never, never ever happened. HR is always wonderful and everything's perfect. There's definitely, definitely a few, a few of the roles I've walked into that have been Messy. I remember going, I wouldn't name the organization, but I remember joining an organization as a, a ah, European leader looking after a quarter of the world. And the day that I joined my three counterparts that looked after the other parts of the world all resigned on the same day. It was a bit of a crikey protest, uh, resignation, I think. But um, that, that was a really interesting business because there was lots of stuff broken. The organization itself was in a place where it couldn't really fix some of the things that needed to fix. It really needs to be broken down and then, and then rebuilt up in terms of being able to move it forward. So that, that was a, a tricky place for sure. And, and then in other places where international things are taking place, say the invasion from Russia, uh, into Ukraine for example, meant m. That many of our software developers in particular business were put at risk. Um, and so what do we do? How do we look after our employees first and foremost, and then secondly, how do we make sure that the business is contingency in terms of being able to move forward, so landing in a new business and that happening at the same time trying to figure out how do we do this, what's the. What, what's the practical things that we can do to make this happen and at the same time showing some empathy and humanity as we're trying to work through that as people are beginning to become quite uncertain about what's going on. So yes, there's definitely a few moments where you kind of going, oh, and I think it's our job then just to kind of put that firebreak in place and be that calming essence that kind of calms things down and take things very practically and pragmatically have that empathetic ear so that you can listen and take the emotion but also be practical about what people can really do and take on board from there. So always, yeah.

Speaker B: Gosh, that first day you described when your counterparts will resign sounded like first day from hell actually. Like, what have I joined? And yeah, and your point about the example of, about the organization where you had Ukrainian, um, workers or colleagues. I guess I'd been thinking so far that we're really focusing on the internal stuff, but there's obviously all those external shocks that can absolutely dictate what needs to be done in the short and medium term, whether that's a pandemic or uh, wars or other external shocks. So it's really important to acknowledge that so side of things as well. And we talked, I talked in my intro about spotting the sharks in the tank. And that's a phrase I think you've used. What do you mean by that?

Speaker A: I think everyone, every business has some sharks. I think that's kind of the nature of life. I think that uh, we will have those. There's people that we kind of go, mhm. How do we handle those? I think the thing is not to think of them. If you take back that superhero analogy, they're not necessarily the villains of the organization. I think that they're the power brokers and that sometimes they, they need to be fed and uh, looked after and sometimes they need to just be fenced in and let them swim on almost. So I think, I think the trick, I always, it comes back to that diagnosis element for me and being able to observe and watch and see what happens and see the power plays that kind of work out. And in some cases you kind of go, okay, that's, that's a learned behavior. And they've done it because they, they need to do it for the organization and to get things done. In some cases it's a blind spot and you need to coach train them and really call them out. I remember being probably in my second meeting in a business still fairly new, and the um, behavior in the room was just unacceptable and just shouting and screaming and kind of things you kind of expect that would perhaps be on a, on the Billions TV show as opposed to in real life, the Apprentice. Yes, exactly. And so I do remember intervening at that point and kind of going, I'm not sure that this is a really productive meeting. How is everyone feeling right now? And everyone stopped and like eyes wide at me as if to say, oh my goodness, what are you doing? And um, I really did intervene and hold the room at that, that moment and ask people what were they feeling and took a temp check around the room, including the shark that was there. And um, the shark actually ended up being the most vulnerable person in the room and changed the dynamic completely. And so it was a, for me, my second, second management meeting in that organization and all of a sudden the power play that I had and what I was able to do in the, in the organization elevated because I think I challenged in a way that was a positive way and people that felt they could trust me, but also trust each other a little bit more around moving things forward. And the Shark themselves is now still a coachee. I still speak to them and have them as a coachee in terms of, okay, that behavior is playing out again, how do we deal with it? Um, and that vulnerable side that they were able to share, uh, change the dynamic in the organization in terms of being able to get stuff done and to do things differently. It just comes from a place of passion and wanting to do things really, really well, as opposed to sometimes that villain piece where we just think they're really evil, but they're not. They just want to do things in the right way. So being able to show that, highlight that and help them through that process, uh, is. Is also really helpful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I had a store manager. Sorry to interrupt. Very, very early on in my career where we were doing stuff at Tesco, and he was, he was called. Called the grumpy store manager because he'd walk around and just bring everybody down because he'd just see the things that were wrong and walk around. And so we gave him that feedback in the store. And they had. There was a Ribena competition at the time and they were giving away, like, these Ribena toys, soft toys. And so in the, in this scenario, I don't know how he managed to get around to it, but basically he, we got him to get permission that when he was being grumpy, we'd give him the grumpy Grumpy Grape. And so it was a little signpost to him to say, yeah, you're being grumpy right now. You need to cheer yourself up and think about the impact you're having on the people around you. And so for a period of time, this Grumpy Grape was passed from different people around the store to give to the store manager when he was being grumpy. And I mean, it did. It's a bit of fun. It kind of changed the dynamic, it changed the conversation because people realized that he wasn't just being grumpy for being grumpy sake, he was doing it because he wanted the store to look the best. Uh, but it changed the dynamic and helped people to understand him a bit better. It was good fun.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a lovely example. And I can see that sounded like it worked so well because you involved that individual. It wasn't like you were passing the grumpy great round without their consent or without explaining to them what it was about. And it was actually a coaching intervention that they were okay with. And I think that's something that I'm really, you know, is really shining through from this point. Bit of our conversation is that as well as perhaps being the fixer of hr policies, processes, programs, whatever the hr, ah, agenda, you're also a bit the fixer of people dynamics that you observe going around you. And uh, it sounds like that example you shared where it was your first or second management meeting, you were able because of your skills, but also I guess partly because you haven't got the baggage that everyone else in the room had about being in the organisation. And perhaps, I'm curious to know, it's kind of there's less risk attached to you because you're not going to be there long term. You can intervene in a way that others find extremely hard to. So that sounds like that's a big part of your role is spotting, observing those people dynamics and then being able to intervene in a different way than to what normally happens to get a different outcome.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think you hit nail on the head. I think often when you go into an organization as a new person, you can see things. It's like being outside the goldfish bowl and looking in. You can see the things that are and aren't working very well. I think that the skill that interim bring, especially if they're good at it, is that ability to be the alchemist, almost the ability to kind of mix things up a little bit, whether you're internal or an interim or a permanent HR person. For me, the best HR people are the ones that are able to be chameleon, like be agile enough to change things up. Sometimes your cheerleader on the sides, cheering the team on and bringing them alongside. Sometimes you're that pot stirrer, kind of creating a little bit of tension in order to move things forward or change the dynamics of a relationship. And you have to change up your style and your attitude and your capabilities to match the team and like say sometimes to push them forwards and sometimes challenge them in their own right way. And being. Knowing how to be the alchemist and kind of figure out what that team needs at the right time is a real skill. And don't get me wrong, I've definitely got it wrong sometimes where I've made an inappropriate joke or I've challenged in the wrong way or. And that that hasn't gone quite the way that you want it to. But that's. That's the skill. That's what you learn as you go through. And I think the other part is when you do get it wrong, you correct it really quickly. I've made a mistake. You'll. You loan it in the meeting or you loan it afterwards and have a conversation with the relevant people. So it's not all. It's not all easy, for sure.

Speaker B: No, no. I know from my own experience of working in an organization that's going through state of transformation and different behaviors, perhaps on display that it's very complex stuff actually, and you have to be very skilled at doing what you're doing. So, um, it's a real privilege to hear how you go about it. Um, and we've talked quite a lot so far about the kind of the diagnosing, the assessing, the intervening. What about the actual agenda? Is it typically the same kind of things that need fixing? You alluded at the start of the conversation to kind of two types of things that typically. Or two buckets of things. What are the things that need typically need fixing? And can you give me an example of a broken. Something that's broken in that.

Speaker A: The recruitment process for me is probably the first thing you'd look at. Um, well, the second thing, the first thing I'd look at is od the organizational design because, uh, you need the right people in the right places doing the right things. That for me fundamentally is the uh, most important thing. But the recruitment process for me is almost that second element that you kind of go right what's working or not working here? Because you're either getting in the wrong people or the wrong people aren't staying enough in order for them to add the value that you need them to do. So from that process point of view, you kind of go right what's not working here? And you see technical bits of the process in terms of like the job advert not being written in the right way, or it's kind of on the back of a fag packet and not really thought through about what that's going to do and how that's going to fit into the ad, or there's a theater of people that want to be involved in that recruitment process, which just means it becomes cumbersome and slow, or it's the other way around where no one's interested to lead it and you end up kind of getting new one involved in that recruitment process that moves it forward. And then I think that the, the process of actually onboarding people, once you've found someone that you think is the right way, like how do you make sure that they land really well? So from the moment you say yes to them, making them feel wanted and loved and cared for before they arrive into the organization so they land really, really well and they know what's going on as they, as they of hit that first, first 12 months, I think the, the attrition rate on average, I think something like, uh, 70%. Isn't it in the first 12 months that people leave their job. And that's just scary in this day and age. When we talk about productivity in the UK in general, and you talk about businesses wanting to make and look after people, how do we get that so wrong for people? And how do we do better to be able to do that? And I think that for me, is one of those hero processes that if you don't feel fix that, it kind of tells you a lot about your organization and how you connect those dots and make it make sense for people as you work through.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that kind of first hundred days is so pivotal, isn't it? Giving people a positive experience, helping them find their feet really quickly. Um, somebody else I interviewed back in the podcast, Randall Peterson, who's a professor at LBs, was saying, Typically on, uh, people's inductions, we overwhelm them with like 10,000 bits of information, uh, of which they can barely remember a handful by the end of the day or the end of the first week. It would be so much more effective if we picked out the 10 really useful things they needed to know as they land in the organization and keep it at that, just to help people really settle quickly. That advice has always stuck with me. We try and throw everything like all the jelly at the wall at the same time, and it's all sliding down people's minds and out. And so you look at the overall setup, like kind of how work and teams and people are configured in terms of structure and role and processes. And you look at how people come into the organization and their early experience of being in there. And on that recruitment side of things, when you're not being an hr, uh, interim HR leader, you have a new business that's focusing specifically on that very common issue. Is that right?

Speaker A: Yes. Um, and thanks for mentioning that. Yeah. So I've been in between roles, which is always one of those things. As an interim, you kind of have downtime, which sometimes is nice and sometimes it's not so nice. But more recently, I've been working on a business called Rate a Recruiter. So imagine Checker Trader or TripAdvisor, but for the recruitment industry. And essentially you can go onto that website and you can search for recruiters in your industry. So HR being able to look for HR recruiters or different industries, and then as a client, so particularly within our field is hr. So more recently I've been in a construction industry. Where is hiring for health and safety people. I had no way of being able to know who the best health and safety recruiters are in the market. And so being able to go onto a website that tells me exactly who the best recruiters are in the market would be really, really helpful for our profession. So I have created that. It goes live in this couple of weeks and theoretically you'll be able to go on search for recruiters in a particular industry and then give them a review from a candidate perspective and then also from a client's perspective. So you can kind of do it on Google, you can kind of do it on trustpilot, but this gives you a more in breadth, in depth view of the recruiters that are out there and see what you're getting before you sign up to them, both as a candidate and as a client. So, yeah, something a little bit different.

Speaker B: Yeah, sounds super useful. And we're recording this in mid November and it'll air, the episode will air, uh, I think kind of Q1, uh, January, February 2026. So if you're listening, that website will be live and you can go check it out and there'll be a link in the show notes and, uh, best wishes for that. Uh, it sounds a really much needed bit of transparency and a really practical tool for anybody that's hiring, I guess. What about as you come towards the end of your time in your interim HR role, so you've done the listening, you've done the diagnosing, you've persuaded people about what you need to help them focus on, you've done some interventions of some kind or another, whether that's around the, the way people interact around the work, um, or very practical kind of processes, policies, programmes, etc. What for you leaves you feeling like you've done a good job there and you've made a positive impact before you leave. What does better look like from a fixing people issues point of view?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, um, it's a really tough question actually, Helen. So I think HR's work is never done. Business is never done because you've always got something else to do next. So it's always tough to find the right time to leave. First and foremost. And be fair, I have gone from interim to permanent, um, in a couple of positions because the role is great, the people are great, the work is interesting, exciting, that's always good. And then for very kind of world reasons like Covid and other things that hasn't quite worked out for the longer term. Um, but yes, I think that it's quite a challenge to kind of go right, when is the right time to leave? I think for me, fundamentally it's about knowing that you've Moved the dial on what you were doing. So you can see people, things like engagement surveys and attrition rates we've talked about on this call. You kind of know that it feels better than it was beforehand because people can talk about the vision, they know how they're making a difference. You can see that there's the data that's coming back that says, okay, we've made a, uh, an increase in profit over here because you've got people focused on the right activity. So those things are things you kind of take away. And they're almost, they're not, they're not intangible. They are quite tangible things that you can share, improve and do. And I think that also is one of the things for HR to do more of, is kind of look at that, uh, roi, look at the data, look at how we've made a difference from a, uh, from a very practical point of view. So I do focus in on that activity to kind of go, right, we've moved the dial on this, we've done that. And you can see the practical implications of what that will look like. Sometimes it's a new system that's been implemented or it's, as I said, the attrition is reduced or whatever. So being able to look at that. But I think the thing that I take away the most is the relationships that you've created. Um, and I've got a fairly decent network, I think now of people I've worked with and I'd love to work with again, um, that you kind of go, okay, I know that if I pass them in the street, will end up having a coffee and a, and a catch up. Because we like to kind of know what's going on in the business and what's been happening since. So for me, there's, there's the very practical element of the things that we've done, but the other part is the hearts and minds that we've changed and the relationships we've created as we've gone through. So I think that that for me is the uh, barometer of knowing that we've, we've done it. You can put your Clark Kent glasses back on and they'll know that you're Clark Kent, not just Superman, as you're walking away. To take your superhero analogy, yeah.

Speaker B: And you've built your supporters and your collaborators and your partners in, um, making that world a better place from a business and a people perspective. I love that. And I love the fact that you include the relationships that you've created. Because doing any Kind of change work or resolving tricky problems, particularly people problems is hard work. It can feel very uphill. It can be quite full of friction and emotion and all of that resistance. Uh, uh, and you might have actually the toughest project or period of time there in terms of how hard the work feels. But if you've built great relationships along the way that can be really transformative and as you say, a real sign that you've made some real impact and progress. Um, yes, that's great to hear.

Speaker A: Sometimes I think the other way goes as well. So sometimes you do have to go in and be very hard nosed and very practical about perhaps the thing that's going through. So an M and A or a divestment or something that you've had to do that's just very, very practical. And you haven't got the time to do some of the nicer stuff. And so that makes the ending a little bit harsher I think sometimes. And you have to be hardened to that as well. As you're doing the interim piece. You come in, you do a project, you have to leave. But I always like to think even in those situations you've got a place where people are saying thank you and kind of having that relationship at the end of it, I think. Yeah, uh, I was doing a short stint with the um, Lawn Tennis association and doing a TP transfer. I think it's probably the only time I've ever had people say thank you to me as they're being made redundant. And it was lovely, the people were lovely as you're going through it. And like I say it's that relationship element that the output was that there were redundancies and there isn't a negative headcount at the end of it. But still people felt like they've been seen, heard and recognized as you work through that and got some emotion, emotional attachment to some of those people that you'd work through.

Speaker B: So yeah, yeah, that's yeah, hugely powerful example of having made a positive impact. Brilliant. Well, it's been so interesting exploring all of this around fixing people issues and actually it's ended up being much more about the people than the uh, the practical side of things maybe that I'd expected. Although I completely appreciate your last point. Sometimes you're just in there to do a job for a particular timetable and you know, and that's what you've got to focus on, on for people listening who are interested to get in touch, follow your work, find out more about Rate a recruiter. You know, what's the best way for people to connect with you professionally.

Speaker A: Sure. And so you can find me on LinkedIn, it's Kieran Mander at LinkedIn, so that's really easy. Or you can go to my website, which is www.kieranmander.com, and the rater recruiter website will go live in December, as you said already. Um, and theoretically, we'll do a lot of marketing kind of in the new year end of January. So you should see a lot more of us on LinkedIn and other places. But, um, that will be a bit more of a hard launch at the end of January. And, uh, yes, Rate a Recruiter.net is where you can find that website.

Speaker B: Brilliant. Thank you. I'll make sure all those links are, uh, in the show notes. It's been so fantastic chatting with you about how to fix people issues brilliantly. I think the image in my head is less of a superhero, but more, maybe more a chameleon in a superhero's cloak and those, you know, black Iband things going in, because I loved your analogy of, you know, a chameleon needing to be very adaptable, very flexible in the role you play and the way you, you do what you do. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing your expertise, helping unpack this topic for us today. It's been a real pleasure podcasting with you, been a brilliant guest.

Speaker A: Cheers, Helen. Much appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed this week's episode, then why not subscribe to the show, rate it online and share it with friends? Join me again in a fortnight for another conversation about building brilliant organizations. In the meantime, have a great week and keep on being brilliant.