Self Work & The Joy of Small Business with Jillian Byrnes

Speaker A: Are you exhausted from juggling a dozen different software logins every day? Firms don't have the time or budget, or if you're anything like me, the context switching, you know, the mental bandwidth will kind of get you, um. But firms don't have the time or budget to manage 14 different tools. And that's why you need to check out Canopy Canop is this episode's sponsor. And they can bring your document management, CRM, tax flow, close, automation, and more all into one software with one single login. Instead of duct taping integrations together, you can now get access to one platform, one bill and one support team. Plus, your clients will love their 4.9 star rated mobile app. Visit getcanopy.com to unclunk your workflow today. Now back to the episode. Hello, and welcome to the Big four transparency podcast. I am joined today by Jillian Burns, the managing director and head of people at Quadrant Advisory. Welcome to the pod, Jillian.

Speaker B: Thanks. Happy to be here. Happy to chat. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's been great. Uh, this has been a very winding road to getting to this place. Joe Manganelli introduced us recently, um, which we'll touch on because you were actually, from what I hear, pretty key part of his former firm, Calculate, and one of the first hires.

Speaker B: I think I was a first hire.

Speaker A: Yeah, the first hire.

Speaker B: Okay. The first hire, baby.

Speaker A: Um, but yeah, he was like, you guys should talk. Uh, and then we actually had just quite a few, just general chitchats. It was kind of like, oh, damn. Every time. I was like, we should have just recorded this one. Yeah, right.

Speaker B: We could do as many as we want.

Speaker A: Yeah. But now we're finally recording it and I think you have a lot to share. Um, so maybe to kind of start us off, um, what, uh, what were things like at Calculate? How did you and Joe kind of initially meet? And how'd you end up being the first hire? Because you were sort of out of industry at that point. You were working in, uh, Estee Laude at that point in time, Correct?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I spent 10 plus years in public accounting, did the big four, did medium size, did the small thing. The culture was never going to be a fit for me. Um, the grind yourself until you die thing was just not for me. Um, and also Tax, let's be real. I like the challenge of it, but not the most exciting. Um, so I had finally, I did enjoy. I'd say I was at a smaller boutique public accounting firm. And that did have an amazing culture, the familial feel. I did love that. But it was just the nature of the work. I was like, this is confirmation that this isn't the space for me. They then got acquired by a mid sized firm and I was going back to where I didn't want to go. So my mentor, Sandy, uh, Lawler, she had worked at the Estee Lauder family office and she told me about a temporary job there for a project implementation. And she kept reiterating that it's temporary, there's no permanent role. And I'm like, I don't care, let's go for it. So that was a really cool experience. I loved working with her again and it was the first time in my career I could actually be intentional about where I wanted to go next rather than, oh, I'm, I'm sure you see it in your, uh, space too. Like, I am so desperate to get out of here, I'll take anything. Um, I was able to. There was an endless amount of work. I was able to be mindful and search. Um, I came across Joe's job posting and I saw it was one person, it was client service and it was tax. So I passed on it. Like, I can't even tell you how many times I'm like, no, no and no. And then I can't explain it. On a whim one day I just applied and emailed immediately. And it was ironic because in the GM building in New York, I was on the 40th floor and he's like, oh, I met a client on the 10th floor. So we were in the same building. Um, we had a good conversation and I actually said to my husband, you know, the job I kept passing on, like, the guy's really interesting. The idea is interesting. He's like, why don't you go give him a chance, let's have lunch. Um, the lunch I think went over like an hour. Not. You've talked to me enough, so I'm sure you're not surprised, but just thought he was very genuine, authentic. The idea at the time, the outsourced CFO and accounting space, this was 2017. There was nothing as many of these firms, um, so it was the first that I heard of this opportunity. And I just had after spending a lot of years being unhappy in my job, I had a list of not grievances, but I want to work at a company that has this and that. And Joe was like, okay, let's do it, let's do it. And I knew he wasn't just like spewing hot air. He genuinely meant it. But I still had to think about it because I'm like, this is. Homeboy is a party of one working out of someone's apartment. Um, so he'll joke that I took the most meals to hire, but my argument is I took the biggest risk. So I got a dinner out of it too. And it was funny because I knew I was willing to take a pay cut because I knew I wanted to take a chance on him and the idea. But he lowballed me, and I'm like, I don't know about this. I was already going to get lowballed, and it was even worse. But I remember going home, like, disappointed and saying to my husband, ah, just. I don't know if we could swing that, but I really want to do it. And then Joe and I, like, worked things out and kind of the rest is history. We started working from his apartment and bopped around to different co. Um, working spaces or clients. We had a industry friend who's in real estate, and he let us squat in conference rooms. So very scrappy. As he would say. Humble beginnings is how it started. Um, and it was just an amazing journey of highs and lows, for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, what I find interesting is, like, looking at your career path, um, it kind of ties together with a presentation that Mike Maximu, another one of just like my favorite people in the industry, gave at Bridging the Gap, which we were just talking about. Um, so he talked about the Cottie Wample career path, and I ended up writing about this. So Cody Wample is like a word, um, that means to travel in a purposeful manner towards an unknown or vague destination.

Speaker B: Oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker A: It is. Yeah. And, like, just looking at your career journey, it just seems like you. You gave everything a shot, you know, like, you were at the big four for a couple of years, and you tried another group in a different service line for a couple of years. Then you tried the small firm thing for a couple of years, and, like, presumably everything was okay, but, like, I'm betting kind of just not quite right, which is a lot of what I felt kind of in my career before sort of landing in entrepreneurship. And, like, you just. You gave stuff a shot. And, like, a lot of people, I think, who are unhappy in their careers don't take those risks. Like, they just say, like, oh, uh, well, it's not that bad. Like, maybe I'm just not meant to, like, like what I do for 50 hours a week.

Speaker B: And it's, like, so sad.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that's such a shame. And you sort of took a Lot of shots. And I tell people this a lot. You know, you weren't happy at the big four. Like, going to a top 10 firm is probably not your next move. Like, go try something vastly different. Like maybe the industry work, you know, work is something for you. Maybe it's a change in service lines, like, and really identify within yourself, like, what the thing is that you need. And like, you very clearly, like, found calculate. And we're happy there to a degree. Like, you stayed there for almost seven years, but even within calculate, like, it seems like you continued to sort of tweak your journey, right? You went from director of tax to partner, chief of people, um, or chief people officer, where, like, it just feels like you've always been kind of refining and like, getting a little bit better at like, what, what do I, like, what am I looking for? And so, like, that's something that I, like, I think is worth, you know, an applause. Like, I think that's awesome that you were able to kind of just re engineer your career so many times and like, just eventually find the right fit.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, thank. That actually means a lot, especially coming from someone who knows the space, because I would say my resume, um, worked against me pretty heavily. I, um, think it's an old school way of thinking. But the whole job jumper thing, Joe is the first one that didn't use that against me because he asked me to describe my background and other, uh, recruiters I worked with. Like, if I had an issue with a specific employer that was toxic. Where I'm like, how did I even last that long? Their exact words, well, we don't say that everything's fine. And it just didn't feel right in my, like, core being to lie. So with Joe, I was very transparent about it and he didn't really blink. I'm sure he was judging because I know him, but. But he listened and it didn't work against me, but it did for a long time. Like, I interviewed a bunch of places and their read rather than I loved the way you read it, but their perception is, oh, uh, this woman can't hold a job. Like, what is she doing bouncing around? And I had a lot of friends that stayed in public and were literally saying, they're crying in the bathroom and they're losing weight and they just felt so sick. And that's something that I was never a risk averse person. But even when I joined Joe, it didn't feel like this giant, huge risk. I told a few friends and they're like, are you out of your Fricking mind. Like, you're gonna go work with this one person. But then my husband, my mentor, Sandy, and um, one of my best friends, Andrea, I was talking to them about it and they're like, this is the time, just do it. And that's what I felt all along. And it was nice to have like, the close validation from others, but it never felt like this big, scary leap. It just felt like where I was supposed to go next. But I think now, like, I interviewed every person at Calculate. Um, I interview and everyone in my role now. And something I don't hold against people, I ask them to describe their journey and background. But just because I see the small, the short tenures, I don't make assumptions that were used against me because that was a lot.

Speaker A: What's a good way for someone to communicate that? Obviously assuming that, like, the interviewer on the other side is open minded, right? Because, like, I have spoken to people who've had that same journey and gotten very different impressions of them, right? Like, I've gotten people that I've spoken to that are like, yeah, I worked here, there were scumbags, and then I worked here and there were scumbags. And it's like, well, okay, I mean, come on now. But like, I think some people, uh, in my own experience, where I kind of am like, oh, that's fair. Like, they'll be like, hey, I worked here. And I, you know, during that time I realized that my strengths were thing, X, Y and Z and like, that that maybe wasn't going to be recognized there. Like, when I talk about my departure for Big four, like, the firm I was, uh, at, like, I think we probably had one of the best offices of like, that firm. Like, we had such good people. But I was just kind of like, yeah, it's a massive organization. They need to assign definitions to roles. And like, I did not cleanly fit definitions. And so I was bringing a lot of value outside of that that was just not going to earn recognition. And then like, the expectation of me in the role was like, I could do it, but it's like, not what made me happy. And so that was kind of my sign to move on. So, like, what, uh, and that's how I view it. But I'm curious for you, like, what's the way for someone to. Who's, yeah, maybe jumped around and just like, haven't found the right fit? Like, how should they be framing that?

Speaker B: I think to your point, you could tell when there's the Debbie Downer's life is Happening to me, not for me, where everything sucks. Oh, uh, this wasn't that. And then they did that, like, to me, when I ask everyone to explain their journey in their own words, beginning to end. Because one, I like to see how they're telling the story, what they're leaving out, what they're not. Um, and I get an impression of people from the tone. Like if off the bat you're explaining and it was everything sucks and they didn't do this for me, that for me, I kind of pick up on the tone. Others I can tell. Some there's like, hesitation and, oh, should I be honest about this? Or some where they said, oh, uh, this wasn't a cultural fit. There was a change in management. That's a thread I start to pull. And then they see it's safe to, like, talk about and get more honest. And it's not just like a bash fest. It's just, I think it's an acceptable answer to say this isn't a fit. Like, I love that you said that was your sign to move on. Because I feel like that, at least early in my career was not acceptable. There had to be this dramatic reason. And I'm like you, where if I wake up and don't want to go to work or don't feel fulfilled, then this isn't the right station for me. Um, so I always keep an open mind when interviewing people, but I know not everyone will. So I think if you just have that positive tone, authentic kind of tone when you're telling your career journey and then you can be honest, I think about this was no longer a fit. This place just had toughic, like toxic attributes. Then I don't use that against people because that is the main reason why one of the firms I was at, I left. It was actual toxicity, like uncomfortable things happening at happy hours creeps. And that's what I was honest with Joe about. Um, because I was actually offended by recruiters saying, well, we don't say that because I'm, um, like, I can't lie about this. And when it's such a big part of my story. So I like the authenticity and I think it's a long bit of way of answering your question. You can kind of tell the people that just think everything that went wrong in their career is someone else's fault versus the ones that take accountability for why they left or just admitting it wasn't a fit. Mismatch. Yeah.

Speaker A: And what was it about? Calculate that, like, really was the sort of magic touch of, you know, good Culture, Like, I want to show up here every day because, you know, we. We have a lot of, like, kind of smaller firms as well as some leadership at bigger firms who, like, listen to these. Um, and it's like a really hard to describe thing, but again, like, I. I think as the head of people there, you probably became largely responsible for, like, making sure that that was the case for other people as you grew.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, like, what, you know, what is that kind of little, like, magic fairy dust that made it work there? Because it. I think it's hard sometimes to win over people to those firms too. Right. Sometimes, like, everyone is told through college, like, ah, you got to go to the big name. You got to have the big name on your resume. And, um, um. And yeah, I mean, it's true. Kind of like, it's nice to have, like, name recognition, but then I think it scares a lot of people away from those small places. And it's like you need to not only have that special something that makes it a great place to work, but you need to be able to communicate it. So how, like, what was that? And how did you communicate that to. To future hires?

Speaker B: I think I'd say the magic fairy dust. You're right. It is hard to articulate the culture. But that I think started with, like, Joe is party of one for four months. So he set his own tone for the culture he wanted to build. Then insert Jillian stage right. And culture was such a big part of that initial lunch conversation. And just being honest about the cultural things that didn't work in the past. And all the fluff you get, like the PDF brochures of people leaping in the air in a field, work, life balance and all that. Um, but it was just being. And it was hard. Um, Joe would say that a few times. It's hard to build this way, but it's the right way to build. Is being really intentional about the values we set for the company from day one and being super, super, super selective. I cannot reiterate enough how important the recruiting and hiring process becomes in these small companies. Um, we knocked it out of the park with our first few hires just throughout the network. Our third, after me, the hire was somebody that Joe had worked with at Goldman, so they're kind of already vetted and setting the tone with really great people up front that also have open minds. Um, and we were big on diversity, equity, and inclusion from day one and just staying true to that. I think people start to see that when you become like, six, seven people and they're telling their friends about and their friends are kind of in these other environments. They're like, no way, that's too good to be true. Some of them interview and they see like Joe interviewed everybody first and if they could pass his test, then they moved on through me. And something I think both of him and him and I embodied was authenticity. I was very direct with because of my own experience and I was honest about that in interviews. Um, I wanted to be as authentic as possible. Like client service is hard. The work can get really hard. You're dealing with people and it's complicated. And these are our values. And being able to filter through people on the EQ value side I think helped keep that magic going. But it really starts with leadership. So if you have like me and Joe setting that tone and meaning it's put money where the mouth is, then that gets buy in. And also I think why I still love the small scrappy businesses, um, you're really building something and people have a fingerprint on how a company is built. And when you think about being in these larger firms where people don't feel seen, they're a cog in the wheel. And I was honest too. And Joey's was like, we can't pay you as much as Big four, but this is what you're going to get. The flexibility, like the autonomy. The like part of being something bigger than yourself. The work is the work. It's going to suck some M days, but when people have buy in and see that you have that great culture and your leaderships are a slack away or a message away and will roll up their sleeves to help you, you feel like you're building something really great together. I think that that is part of the magic that people don't experience. Other places that um, they were able to experience at Calculate and also and the smaller scrappier firms, but that gets more complicated as you do scale and the clients get more complex and sometimes um, deadlines that aren't being met, work performance, all of that plays into how hard it is. But I would say what always stuck with people was the culture we built. And I'd be honest about how I never had the Sunday scaries at Calculate. I was always looking forward to where even when the clients of their pain in the ass or the work got hard, knowing that I had a group of people that's going to lift me up, that was always very fulfilling for me and I know for others too.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, those early hires, like, uh, that gets talked about a lot in like some of the podcasts that I listen to, like, on the business side generally, like outside of just accounting, but like the early hires, again, like, it's super important to get that right where like, those are kind of the seeds that are going to spread and people are going to bring in their network. And so like, if you get the first couple of people wrong, then you're kind of fighting an uphill battle from that point forward. Whereas, like, otherwise you just kind of get the momentum of like, good people, bring good people, and then you can kind of like cruise from there. I mean, to a degree. I'm sure, I'm sure there's still a lot of vetting and like, challenges and stuff, but like, um, I think that's important one thing. And I mean, feel free to let me know if, if this is not, uh, the right thing to ask on air. But like, you know, getting good people, like, good people kind of have options early on. Mhm. And so to win over someone good, and I mean, without sharing too much about what's going on in Big four, transparency. But this is something I'm considering right now is like to get someone good, exceptional, kind of on your team, but like, you're sort of small and scrappy and can't afford necessarily what their market worth is. Like, was there some element, like communication of, hey, like, hey, here's how I see you partaking in the upside of this business if it does work out. Like, was there any kind of like equity or phantom equity element initially to get you on board for kind of those early hires? Or like, what, what did that sort

Speaker B: of look like that, like, for me when I came on board, there was no, like, Joe and I had talked about that, but that wasn't a carrot he had to dangle for me to join. Okay, um, same with our next hire. But then equity did come into play, which was I wasn't expecting at the time. There was so much I look back at naive Jillian, like, oh, this is how it works. This is my worth. Um, so learned a lot in that aspect. But yeah, the first key hires, then that, especially in leadership positions, that is a lever to pull. But I think when we got bigger and closer to the exit, it's something that we had talked about, like, do we put kind of a, um, stock incentive plan for all employees? Like those conversations came to play but didn't quite happen. But for the first, uh, few roles, definitely that was a lever that Joe was able to pull.

Speaker A: Yeah. Cause I just see like in the, in the future of accounting, I think, like, that may become more normalized.

Speaker B: I think so too. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: I think like the best people will probably start to pull away more from the crowd as like tech enablement and things like that start to happen. And at a certain point, like I think that's probably gotta be a thing for like the best, most innovative firms particularly starting off, if you really want the best people, like, there's gotta be something there.

Speaker B: Right? I agree. And now like this was back in what, 2017, 2018, we're talking about now the market, like outsourced. See, the options are everywhere. And that's where I think where AI is changing the game is. Maybe everyone isn't trying to be the next Bezos or Musk. They're like, oh, I can have like five people that I love working with, do so like do well with profit margins and love my life and just cruise and that's okay. Versus I think back in 2017, 18 it was more let's take it to the moon and exit. Now I'm seeing more. I think AI has blown the door open for which I love um, more people to be like, why can't I try this myself? And I don't need this huge team and I can get by doing xyz. But for those good people, that's where I do agree with you. There's going to have to be upfront, like what I'm part of this. I, I give me some sweat equity. Like give me something. Because otherwise I have take my talents to all these other firms. Like the competition is very, very big right now in the space.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then so calculate exited. And then you. Mhm. Took a career break afterwards.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: Which you just call soul searching. Which I think is like really interesting. Um, and then I have some questions about kind of bouncing back after that later. But like was that like a planned thing after the exit or like um, like huh, What. What was this soul searching I just put.

Speaker B: That's another thing that I think in the past, like past Jillian wouldn't put soul search in with a little detective emoji because it would be frowned upon. But I just of anything, it's. I came home to myself and I'm authentically me. And that journey exited, um, ended up exiting the workforce altogether. And I was just a um. Personal life was just an absolute disaster. So I did not plan to take what I call my Eat Pray Love break in that manner. But it's what saved my life, I'd say. I had so much stuff in the past that I think caught up to me. Um, My sister passed away my first day at PwC. And I did the grief counseling. I did the things. But what I learned in 2024 is I wasn't as healed as I thought. And then we all have our unconscious, like these narratives we wrote as children and perfectionist issues. That. That all caught up to me too. So by the end of 2024, I was just not happy with the, uh, work situation anymore. I missed, like, calculate selling. That was a big, like, working from Joe's apartment to losing that. That's just like an identity crisis of sorts. Like, where am I? I wasn't working with Joe the same way. My marriage was also falling apart at home. I was drinking a ton. I was just a fricking disaster. Um, and I'd say I hit rock bottom. But underneath every rock bottom is a trap door, right? It could keep going. Like, you could go all the way to the earth's core with that. Um, but I finally did hit the bottom, and I found something solid there. And I quit drinking. I got help. I did a ton of therapy. Um, and even though I was interviewing at post exit because I was worried about financial security, that was one of the childhood, like, oh, you have to always have, like, something. I didn't know if, like, my marriage would exist, so I was like, I need a paycheck, stat. I was panicking about that. But it's a good thing that I stepped away from all of that to take a break, because I'm in a people role, and how can I advise people if I'm not performing at my best, if I'm not getting help that I need? Um, it would almost feel like, um, I'm performing. And that would catch up to me too. So the time stepping away there was soul searching is an understatement. At one point, my husband's like, you have a mental health six pack. Because there was so much therapy involved. Um, and we were going to couples therapy. I was doing emdr. I did also. I'm just inquisitive by nature. So during this time, I'm like, let me spend less time on my phone and do something with my hands. I was learning, crocheting, um, piano. I always wanted to learn. I finally started taking lessons, so I was trying to get back to myself. Where. What did Jillian love before she got swept up in the Manhattan corporate grind? What did you love to do before Happy Hours was only, like, hobby in Manhattan, living in the city. And it was just a lot of self discovery and very, very hard. I'd say that was the Hardest period I've gone through in my life with facing all of that and destroying a really important relationship that broke my heart, but I say a lot of things broke my heart, but fixed my vision during that period. Um, so it was a. It was definitely dark at times, but what came out of it was beautiful. I always joke that rise like the phoenix, but I've been through a lot in life, so each time I'm like, are the feathers plucked? How many, like, scars are there? But I'm, um, still here. And, um, the bounce back that you were talking about, that comes with kind of its own challenges because there's a lot of shame in how I was acting when I wasn't my best self, when I was drinking a ton, and just, like, so much embarrassment. Like, who was this person? What. What happened to you? Like, some nights I'm like, I named her Demon Jillian because I just can't believe that that was the human being. Um, and that comes with its own heavy, heavy shame. And getting back into the industry, facing that was hard too, because, like, I'm, uh, authentically me. Should I just be honest? But that could work against you, because then it's like, oh, is this problem? Is this personal? Loose canon is like, who knows? Like, your past can work very badly against you. And I don't hold. You're never getting judgment out of me, first of all. But when people are authentic about their stories, I admire it more than giving the canned answer. So overcoming just being honest about what I went through, and I did that with Chris, the current CEO, gave a lot of power back, too, because I'm like, if I just tell my story myself, then other people's perceptions and how they experienced it, like, I'm taking power back from that.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. I mean, that's. Yeah, that's certainly, uh, important that you took that time to kind of work through that, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Again, when I was in the wrong place, uh, it never kind of got to that. But, like, I just suffered from, like, really, really bad anxiety that I think came from, like, identity of, like, I'm not doing what I need to be doing.

Speaker B: You're performing. Right. It feels like.

Speaker A: And like, that was like, a whole new thing to kind of work through. And, like, I think that, again, you probably have changed a lot as a leader, as a part of that. And I think people being vulnerable and open about that is, like, really important where, you know, the next person who has to kind of do that probably has a good chance with you guys and, like, can have that open and honest conversation with you and find their next thing. Right.

Speaker B: So, yeah, we're all humans just trying to do our best. Um, and I admire that you had to go through that work, too, because I had another value issue. I was talking to my therapist, like, I'm not working now. What value am I adding? And now I look back and just want to, like, give old Jillian a hug. But I was putting so much value on earning a paycheck. She's like, do you know people go their whole life with never doing what you're doing now and, like, building a lot. I had to build a life I didn't want to run away from. So that kind of resilience when if someone went through that similar story and were open with me about it, I would. I don't view it as a tarnished lens. I'm like, that is so much harder than just showing up to work sometimes. Um, and that's where. Also, I'm not a big social media gal. I go on LinkedIn, but I. And Chris is supportive of it. I write in my own voice because there were times during that dark period where I stepped away, where someone said something or wrote something, and that's just what I needed to get out of bed. So I'm like, if just one person I helped, seeing what I have to say, then that makes all the difference to me. Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, that's super important that you do all that and share that. So thank you. And I mean, you. You jump back in. Well, like, it's not like you had to, like, settle for something. Like, you were able to get back into, like, a great role. Right.

Speaker B: Oh, there's no settling, like, no way. I feel like you're the same. There's a point where we won't settle anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, did that take a long time? Like, was that really hard to find and, like, find the right leader who would be kind of open to your journey or, like, was it actually, like, refreshingly. Kind of okay?

Speaker B: It was refreshingly okay with Chris. I was talking to others and, like, doing the consulting road and dabbling here and there. But even when Chris and I had met with. I didn't even remember I was talking about him recently. He had met me and Joe in 2020, just being in the same space and overlap. He's been in our orbit a long time. But, um, Joe definitely was closer with him than me. He randomly reached out to me on LinkedIn, like, hey, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh, why don't we just have a couple phone calls? And just chit chat. And at the time I think he was just looking to pick my brain on, oh, this is what we're going through now. Do you have any thoughts? So the first few calls weren't even let's work with each other. Which I appreciate even more because I was up front like, I am, I am out of the game right now. I have work to do on myself. I was honest about that. And um. But more and more conversations that we had and we started to see something could brew there, but we were in no rush about it. That's when I kind of let other opportunities fall away because. Wonderful. Like to have a CEO that is that open and understanding, so charismatic, so brilliant and has great ideas and was just. It's always very telling when I could just spitball with somebody and there's nothing, there's nothing to gain from it. I didn't. When I first got on the phone with him, I wasn't getting paid for it and he wasn't looking to hire me. It was just kind of like, oh, two colleagues talking and the rapport and the natural, um, communication flow was there from the jump. And then each one where I got to know him better, I was thinking, if I'm going back, it has to be the right opportunity because I worked too hard and sacrificed myself too long for so many years. And I don't want to go back to being unhappy again because calculate really was the first time in my career where I was really always overjoyed to go to work because of the people and loved working with Joe. And like, you met him, he's fantastic. He's a great professional, um, work partner. And losing all that, definitely, it feels like a, uh, hole is missing. So I had to make sure that the next place I went wouldn't fill that hole because it's a different journey, but that I feel that same happiness and joy going to work and brainstorming with somebody. And that was with Chris from, um, the jump. Even when we were in on each other's radars per se.

Speaker A: Yeah, well. And so you, you landed at another kind of like smaller practice. Is there something that like, is unique about the smaller practice that you think like, really makes a big difference for you in terms of like working there? Like, what, what is it that's offered there? Kind of like in general, like a good smaller practice? Right. Because I mean, ah, some of them are like, not.

Speaker B: But yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: What is it that's unique about that kind of opportunity?

Speaker B: I love the small guys. Like, I am a small business Gal for life. I, um, like the scrappiness. I like the hope that comes with it. And also, like I was describing what our employees felt, to calculate, you're just building something like, you're part of something bigger than yourself, and you're actually being seen. Your ideas are being heard. You're able to just slack a CEO and get on a call with them. Um, and I personally am just wired to enjoy the challenge. I think you and I have talked about, like, the bad moments when you're like, what the hell was I thinking? This is terrible. But then when you get out of it and you look back, it's fulfillment, that there's just no words for it. So I enjoy that. Every day is different. I know, uh, like, you can think that you have plans for the day, and then priorities change and something blows up and new challenges arise. I personally enjoy that. But I think, above all, personally and professionally, helping people is my purpose. I felt that. I realized, felt that since, like, the womb, since my earliest childhood memories, I'm like, I want to be helping people. And I think there's a telling my story, being open about it. There's that helping people journey. But the professional side, I feel like in small companies, you're able to help shape people in a way that I was unable to in the bigger firms. So here, even though, um, we, like, it's the same as calculating, we can't pay you as much. But there's so much upside to a great culture. We can try and make it fun even on the hard days. And being able to get on a call and work through problems with somebody and be still within reach, I think is very fulfilling to me versus the bigger organizations. I just don't have that personal touch or it doesn't feel that way as much as I think it's better in some companies. I see now the CAS thing is, um, pretty common, which it wasn't when I was in public. But that in itself, um, those sorts of groups, I think it's the same concept. It's still small, and you have your team and whatnot. But it's not like I could just ask the CEO to go to lunch and, yeah, like, have that kind of reach. So I. Those are some of the components for small.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and there's something too, about how, like, the small things feel a lot bigger. Like, in these smaller plate, like, the winds just feel so much bigger. And I think that can be kind of intoxicating, too.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Where it's like, oh, like every, like, new chapter. Whereas, like, Sometimes that can get lost. And I mean, some larger organizations do a good job of celebrating that. But like, you know, to be so intentional for that to actually be the case.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Whereas, like, yeah, it's very easy to lose sight of that. But like the small things, feeling like such a huge win or such a huge celebration internally, like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think is very, very intoxicating at those places.

Speaker B: Milestones for sure. Like, our first holiday party was me and Eric and Joe having pork slab beer at some like, Mexican restaurant. And it was glorious. Um, yeah. And our first office was another moment where you're like, pinch me. So those things are. You just feel like you're part of something bigger. And also helping the small businesses is pretty important to me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then, um, kind of last question for you here, but, um, you know, in 2026, the landscape is changing a lot.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Talent.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, what are some of the sort of new challenges that have emerged this time around? Right. Like m. You were ahead of people previously. You know, call it 2022 versus like now in 2026. Like, what's. What's changed there? And like, what are the new things that you need to kind of like be able to overcome, um, at the firm without maybe airing out too much dirty laundry? Like, you know, I think.

Speaker B: Well, it's just different here. And part of the reason, one of the reasons Chris wanted me to come on and help with is there's a lot of. We had more contractors at Quadrant than full time employees and that was a new one for me because calculate when people came on, we're like, this is your focus, no competing priorities. Whereas here there are people with competing priorities. So that's what we've been working on over the last year. So we're seeing a turn there. What I'm finding from the recruiting front is just so much more competition than, um, there was in the past where we get a lot of people that are miserable in public and we're really excited. They didn't mind getting paid less to have a great culture. Flexibility. Now I think the landscape of work has changed so much that it's implied, like most cultures are flexible and yeah, you can manage your own workload and still go to a yoga class. So I found there's more competition out there. But I'd also say that AI just even within the last couple of months when I'm interviewing people has changed the game where I'm interviewing pretty aggressively for that AI curiosity. You don't have to wow me with a use case. But I. We're investing in it. That is the way of the future. Like ideally, things that you don't need to think hard to be strategic about. If we could automate, we want to automate. So when you're looking for junior folks, that changes the game a bit. It's more, is this person open to change? Are they open to AI even to try it? Like try it and fail. That's a big attribute. Um, so those things I would say are the two bigger. They're challenges, but something to work through. And that's why having great leadership and a great culture, you have to sell people on it more than I think ever before just because of the optionality. But we also have to set ourselves up for that success of. We don't care if you try and fail here, but we want that curious mind like be looking for process improvements. Um, and something that is not changing is a hard line. Since calculate. And Joe is on board with this too, is the technical stuff. It's different when you get leadership positions. You're more specialized. But for junior folks, I could find technical people all day long. But I'm always looking for the IT factor, the eq. Like how of a client gets on the phone and is in a crisis. How are they going to respond to that? Like how curious are they? How compassionate are they? That uh, I say has not changed. And that's the biggest thing I'm looking for in an interview is the eq.

Speaker A: Yeah. That like kills me in the recruiting process sometimes. Like, I'll be working with a firm and like, like, uh, I'll talk to such a good candidate and they have such interest in like the niche they're in or something. Or like I'm like, oh, this is so good. And they're like, oh, we would have really liked it if they um, you know, did their taxes on like this platform. And it's like, don't get me started.

Speaker B: That's all their podcast episode.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Closing doors to people like that. Because it's just. I know I have a gift with people and I can look for certain things in them, but I think there's just ways to train people to interview, to look for other attributes and build a case for a person. Because you get so many. Oh, uh, but they didn't get their MBA here or their degree's not from here. And I'm like, I don't really care if they could problem solve. They're like talking about building out an automation that saved eight hours of work. That's going to wow me more than any certification but unfortunately that is still like, we're open minded here. Chris is on board with that. But I could see how you run into that battle a lot because that's still out there. Like, where's the degree? Do they have these letters like all that? Yeah, it's still there.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which may or may not really matter in the end. Exactly.

Speaker B: Whole other episode.

Speaker A: Yeah. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on and sharing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, I think there's a lot here for people to take when it comes to. Yeah. Just being intentional about their own careers, like, like finding what actually works for you and makes you happy and just in terms of, uh, doing great stuff on the talent side of things. So, yeah, thank you so much for coming on and thank you.

Speaker B: I always love chatting with you all day every.