Green flags over red flags: Navigating today's brutal job market with Jermaine 'The Jobfather' Murray

Speaker A: Welcome to Technically Speaking Conversations for design managers. Delivering real stories and ready to use tactics to help you build confidence and credibility. I sit down with top voices in design, tech and business to open the black box of leadership. I'm your host, Harrison Wheeler. With 20 years in design and a decade leading teams from scrappy startups to global giants, it's time to get technical. Hey, everybody, my name is Harrison Wheeler and welcome to the Technically Speaking Podcast. My next guest is Jermaine Murray, founder of Toronto based consulting firm Jupiter hr, where he provides interview prep and career consulting services for clients. He's also known as the job father, which we'll dig into a little bit later. And he's on a mission to help 500 black people get new jobs in tech. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Harrison. Happy to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, look, uh, and I would say I can update that, that last comment because I think you have about 99 more. More to go.

Speaker B: 96 actually.

Speaker A: Yikes. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're at, we are at 404, uh, success stories. Yeah, I'm super, super hyped about it. Um, 94 to go. It's like, keeping me up. And like, it's weird because it's like, so you see the light at the end of the tunnel and like, for like the last five years, I've made this whole entire thing, like my whole entire being. It's, it's like a personality trait at some point. Like, you ever see that meme where that guy's in the back of the party, he's like, he's like, oh, they don't even know, blah, blah, blah. Like, oh, I was waiting for somebody to ask you, like, yo, how do, how do black people get in tech? And like, I'd be like, yo, let me, let me help you. Let me see if I can add you to the account. So, like, yeah, I'm wiped about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I'm, I'm super curious. Like, I'd imagine that just creates a lot of focus for you in terms of where you put your energy, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, it does. Um, I think especially because, like, I'm, I'm m trying to, I've been trying for the last couple of years to just be a little bit more healthier and just conscious of my health. And. Yeah, specifically, like in 2021, I wanted to, like, in one year help 100 Black people get jobs in tech alone. And I did 126, which, uh, which was bananas, but, like, yo, it burnt me out. Like, it was it wasn't like, the healthiest thing. Right. So, um, I've had to do a lot in terms of, like, pacing myself and making sure that I give myself rest days. Uh, my partner has been like, on my butt to, like, do that. So, like, I used to work seven days a week, and then she was. She was on me. So now, like, Sundays, I don't work, you know? Yeah, I take Sundays off. I put my phone on a Focus and I grabbed my PlayStation controller and I just. I just chill out of the gym or something.

Speaker A: Yeah. What are you playing on the PlayStation these days?

Speaker B: Right now I'm playing Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth. You know, I'm loving it. I just finished up Baldur's, uh, gate three, but right now playing Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, it's. It's. It's an amazing game. I play the, uh, the original one back in, like, the olden days, you know? You know, when we were doing off of CDs and things. Now everything's digital.

Speaker A: I know, man. So I. I take it you're big in the RPG games?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that. That's my genre right there.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's funny when you talk about, like, the. The old school. I was. I saw this post. You know, everyone's obsessing over Nvidia now, right? Because their stock is on a crazy run. And, you know, I wanted to say, like, people today know Nvidia for their crazy performance, but I remember Nvidia for the graphics cards so I could play the games and so that DirectX whatever could actually work. So it's. You know, I'm sure you resonate with some of that back in the early computer gaming days.

Speaker B: Yeah, I use, uh, I. I built. I built a computer. It was for video editing, right? But, like, I realized pretty quickly that a strong video editing computer can double as a gaming rig. You know what I'm saying? So, like, Nvidia was, Was. Was one of my, My graphic cards.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: 100.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, next question I have for you is, what is something that you're currently obsessed with?

Speaker B: Something that I'm currently obsessed with is working out. Um, you know, I. I was always. I've always been like, a big fan of, like, exercise and, and like, strength training. Um, and in my. I'm originally from Canada, but when the pandemic hit, they shut down all the gyms, and it was just wild because, um, I think I ended up getting like £80.

Speaker A: The.

Speaker B: Over the course of the pandemic, like, you know, it doesn't really hit You. Because you start working from home, so you just, like, naturally rocking sweats. But, uh, when I went to go put on those jeans for the first time, you know, start cutting off circulation, I was like, oh, we got to make a little bit of a change. So as part of, like, my whole thing on, like, focusing on health and, you know, living a better, healthier lifestyle, I've been working out, and I. I literally. I have this app, and it said that I hit my 67th workout of the year so far, and I'm just, like. I'm, like, just addicted to the feeling of, like, working out. Like, yeah, uh, I work out now. I work out more now that I play video games, which is, like, crazy to me because, like, it used to be the reverse my whole entire life.

Speaker A: Yeah, but what. What kind of workouts? Are you, like, a cardio? Do you like to run? Are you, like, a gym rat? Like, combo hit? What is it?

Speaker B: I'm. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a mix of primarily strength training and then cardio. So I, like, on average, I spend, like, maybe, like, 90 minutes to two hours doing strength training, and then I finish it off with, like, 30 minutes of cardio.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: My goal is to, like, you know, lose weight through building muscle, but, like, there's just. Oh, man. Like, there's something about being able to, like, just keep pushing. You're pushing. I remember when I first walked into the gym, and I. I. I got intimidated by some of the larger weights. And now after like, working myself up, uh, those larger weights are now, like, my regular weights. Right. And, like, I'm going a bit beyond that, so it's, like, It's a really good feeling. I can't lie. Like, you know, be. Be. I'll be doing some, like. Some, like, you know, muscular poses in the mirror or not.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, looking for an excuse to wear muscle shirts and sleeveless shirts.

Speaker A: I. I see. Yeah. Like, it's gonna be that, and then the. Then the next. Next time you're gonna be wearing a Speedo.

Speaker B: If. If my girl didn't tell me it was weird, I would be doing it all the time. I, like. I like doing the Hulk Hogan shirt rip. You know, when you're feeling like, oh, yeah, really nice. Yeah, I did that one time, and she looked at me and she was

Speaker A: like, what is wrong?

Speaker B: Uh, you're just.

Speaker A: You're just living your childhood dreams, right?

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. I. I. Look, I'm. I'm. I'm a big proponent of the whole workout Thing. It's definitely something that I make sure I cut out a carve out in the morning. I wake up pretty ridiculously early to do it. But I know, and you can probably resonate this, like, when things get super hectic, at least I know that I've done at least one thing in the day completely for myself. Right. So, love, um, that, uh, the next question I have for you is, what, uh, is the most unusual job you've ever done?

Speaker B: The most unusual job I've ever done, I would say. So. I, uh, want you. Like, when you. When you say unusual, do you mean, like, the job that had the most unusual things or just, like, just the weirdest job that you just never expected?

Speaker A: Hey, your decision. Up to you.

Speaker B: I would say, um. I would say I used to sell gym memberships way, like, 10 years ago. Um, and it actually helped me a lot in terms of, like, getting, like, the key skills I need for, like, a successful career in recruitment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But, like, working at the gym is. Is the weirdest thing because you get people from all walks of life, right?

Speaker A: You get.

Speaker B: You get people that drive Lambos. You get people that, like, are like bodybuilders that are on, like, on steroids. Um, and then, like, just like, uh, you. You have, like, random things that happen to you. I had somebody, uh, pass away on our gym floor once.

Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was, like. It was, like, traumatic and.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was traumatic. But, like. And, like. And like, the. When the cops came, um, they were like, hey, we need to. We need. It was a weekend, too, so, like, there's no managers there. It's just.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, I was the oldest person on staff, and I'm just like. I'm, like, 22 at the point. I'm like, what? I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And they're like, hey, yeah, we need. We need to review your footage of your gym to make sure that, um, it wasn't foul play. Yeah, I'm like, you had a whole. You have a whole gym floor. I was like, yo, we. We saw what happened.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they're like, we. We need it. And, like, the camera was in my manager's office. So when I called my manager, she was like. She's like, bro, I'm all the way in, like, the cottage right now. Like, I can't. I can't come back. And she's. I'm like. I'm like, they said they need it. And she's like, what are you gonna do, break down my Door. And I looked at the cops and I was like, yo, are, uh, you gonna be mad if I break down the door? And they're like, nah, that's. You know, what. Do that. And then she was like, she's like, dude, what the. Like, I gotta do what the cops say I gotta do. So I got. I had an opportunity to break her door down. I was a little mad at her still, so I took it out on the door and like, hey, it was a. It was like a heavy duty door. I had to, like, go get a wrench from, like, um, our maintenance. Like our maintenance staff. And I'm just like, yeah, you. If you remember Street Fighter 2, where, like, you know, they had the. The car on the dock and you.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, then you could destroy it. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was just like that. It was just like. That was just. I was just going. I was just going. I was just going. And like, yeah, there's. Eventually the door gets broken down. They review the footage. Like, all right, it's not foul play.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, when she came back to work on Monday, she looked at her door, and then she looked at me. And then she was like, I hope you enjoyed it. And I. I was like, nah, you know, it was. I was like, no, it was a was emergency. And she's like. She's like, I could tell you're lying at me. You lied to me. And I'm like,

Speaker A: you're like, duty. Duty calls. Manager duty.

Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, I'm like, if you're watching this, I'm sorry, Crystal. It had to happen.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, um, man, that. That's. That's funny. I'm glad it turned out to be satisfying. Sometimes when people, you know, go through these stories, it's like an embarrassing moment for them. But it seems like you took for. For what it's worth, right? I mean, someone still died, right? But, yeah, um. Man, that is. That is a. Ah. That is a story with a lot

Speaker B: of emotional swings up and down as the. The best storytellers is God and just circumstance.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, man, I want to get into the show. I think there's, uh, you know, several topics I want to go over. Number one, I want to get to know who you are, have listeners understand, you know, the. The story behind the job. Father. Um, then some trends that you're seeing in the market. Would love to also discuss red flags. What are those? And just the general state of the union when we start thinking about things around diversity, equity, and inclusion and what that means in. In the workplace and. And how it shows up. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course.

Speaker A: Yeah. With that, let's get into it. So the job, like. Yeah. How did you get that name?

Speaker B: Oh, man. Um, so I got that name back in like 2021, and ironically, it was my best friend that, um, my. It was my best friend that helped me get the job at the gym where I had to break down the door. Um, what happened was in Canada, I'm originally from Toronto, and in Canada, when the pandemic hit, all gyms were like, locked down. And as a result, all everyone that worked at a gym essentially got laid off. And, you know, just because you're laid off doesn't mean, like, the bill stop or anything like that. So for, like, years I had been trying to convince, uh, my best friend to, like, look into getting a job at tech.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because the skills that you learn, you know, selling gym memberships are very transferable to a lot of different industries. And in some cases, you like going out, having to go and produce leads, hunt for leads. Like, selling a gym membership is. Is an actually very, very challenging job. Right. It's not as easy as a lot of people may think it sounds, but, like, you know, because at the end of the day, you're essentially selling a, um, you're selling something that is not a physical object and requires for the results that people want for them to do all the hard work. Right.

Speaker A: You're paying. I have to pay you to put

Speaker B: myself through pain, to do the work. To do the work. It's. It's. You know what I'm saying? So he. He has. He's like a really skilled sales guy.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So I'm trying to convince him to get an attack, you know, and he was always hesitant, um, because he had a good thing going with the gym, and then everyone got laid off. And, um, you know, he was panicked. He's not. He was. He was always. He's a cool character and everything. So he wasn't panicking per se, but I could tell that, like, he was a little bit anxious because, you know, of course he just got laid off. And it was no fault of your own. You don't know when the gyms are going to come back because it's like we've never experienced something like the pandemic. M. So I helped him, um, I helped him with his resume. I helped him with interview coaching. I put him in touch with. With a company in my network, and he ended up getting a job where, um, it was a sales job, inside sales. So he didn't have to actually have to go out and get any more leads.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Inside sales job where the base salary was his total comp alone. Right, Right. That his base plus his commission of his old job was in that base salary plus a commission factor.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And he was like. I was like, yo, you going to take it? And he's like, bro, you got me an offer I cannot refuse. You are literally the job father. I m. Was like, yo, bread trading. I know. Good marketing. That's good marketing, right? And I think the joke is, is that, like, anyone that knows me growing up knows that, A, I'm a big Shaq fan, right? And B, like, Shaq, I love to give myself nicknames, right? And none of my nicknames ever really stuck. The worst nickname, I. I didn't think it's a bad nickname, but like my girl says the worst nickname I've ever given myself was when I was, uh, working at radio, and I used to call myself Audio Chocolate. And then she be, yo, a you, bro.

Speaker A: Oh, man. Uh.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, she. She be like, no, that's a. That's a bad one. But, like, they never really stuck, right? So he started calling me the job father. I'm like, yo, I think. I think that's. I think that's the nickname that's gonna stick. And then. And then, um, I started calling myself that on my socials. And yeah, uh, he was the. In 2021, he was the 34th person that I helped. And I was like, you know, m. Again, favorite player is Shaq. Shaq Thumb on The Lakers was 34. He's the 34th person. I'm like, yo, this might be God trying to be like, yo, like, stop with the other nicknames. This is the one. And this is the one. This is the one. And every time, you know, every time I help somebody get a job, they'd be like, yo, you really are the job father. Like, yo, you really lived up to your name. And, yeah, it stuck. And, um, yeah, like I said, I know. Good marketing. I even got, like, you know, the whole hoodie with the.

Speaker A: With the.

Speaker B: With the branding on it, man. Yeah, it's. It's.

Speaker A: It just.

Speaker B: It just worked. Um, I think one of my favorite moments in my life was, uh, a, uh. I was like, someone was kind enough, um, writer. Ah. At Forbes was kind enough to do a feature article on me.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And, like, that blew up my.

Speaker A: My.

Speaker B: My mom blew up the WhatsApp group with that. And, um, I remember she. I remember it was like someone was. Was like, we were at it. We were at some dinner and someone said, like, who calls themselves a job father? And she hits them back with Forbes, calls my son the job father.

Speaker A: Okay, Slack.

Speaker B: And who's like. I was like, ma, you gotta chill. But really he was over here doing bodybuilding, posing.

Speaker A: Good.

Speaker B: You know, um, and it just, it just, it's just something that's really like stuck on. And like, I think one of the things of my favorite things in this path that I'm in, in this point in my life is that I really, I really feel like I'm working in my purpose. You know, it's not even necessarily specifically helping black people get jobs, but advocating for people, right? Finding a way to make an impact, finding a way to do work that I'm really proud of. Um, and just right now the vehicle is, you know, helping black people get jobs in tech. But like, I'm very passionate about the black community. I'm very passionate about the global black community. Like, you know, every time, every time that I travel, I always try to look for other black people because like outside of like maybe like, you know, the, the, the continent and some of the islands in the Caribbean, who, we're like minorities in almost every space that we're in. So it's like, right, um, it's good to like, you know, find that community, but also kind of take stock and like seeing how we are treated in the global community and how other people like that look like us are surviving and thriving and seeing what we can do, what we can borrow, what we can give in order just to make everything a little bit easier and smoother.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So when you mention like tech, like what is the purview of tech, right? Because in my world it's generally kind of around like research and development, right? Product, you know, product design, engineering. Obviously there's a lot more than that. So maybe give folks a uh, definition of that.

Speaker B: So when I say tech, there are either two, two ways I look at it, right? Either we get you a job at a company that identifies a tech, offers a digital product or service, you know, operates within SaaS, you know, has a presence online. But like more or less like, you know, even a company that has like a presence on their. Or the other way is to get you a tech job, a technical job at a legacy or a non technical company, right? But the idea is, is that, you know, working in this market, there are certain expectations of like pay, benefits and overall experience and learning path. Like a software engineer can work for a faang company or a software engineer can work for A retail giant like your Target or your Walmart or even McDonald's as a software engineer. Right. They're still in tech. Even though that industry or that, that where that um, for that provider or that service provider doesn't necessarily operate within that traditional tech space, it's still a tech job.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the things that, you know, I'm really curious about as well is, you know, a lot of what you hear is like, hey, I want to get into tech. Right. Um, I want to get a foot in the door. But what comes next? Right. There's not necessarily much thought around like what, or at least discussion. Right. And so how are you advising people to sort of, you know, once they're kind of in that job, how are you sort of like advising them in terms of like a path forward and things to look towards?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm, I always tell people that m. So it all comes down to like, depends on like what that job is or like how they got in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because normally like, I work with a lot of people that have had. Not have non linear backgrounds. Kind of like myself. Right, yeah. You, you went to school for something else. I went to school for broadcasting, like, Right. I thought, I thought when I was in school I was going to be the black Larry King and everything. What was it? What was it?

Speaker A: Smooth chocolate.

Speaker B: What was Audio chocolate. Audio chocolate, yeah. Yeah, I thought I, that's, that's how I got that, that's how, that's why I gave myself that. Because I'd be like, yo, I like the way my voice be sounding on the radio. So you know what I'm saying, I'm a black guy, so like, you gotta, gotta have chocolate in there somewhere. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so, uh, but like, you know, when I graduated school, this is like back in like 2013, um, this was a little bit before we had this current wave of like podcasting, uh, or like self publishing media. Um, and this is in that vein where like traditional media hubs were actually like dying. So it was really hard for me to get that first break. I had a couple of contracting opportunities and I had like a radio gig for like, uh, six months before the company shut down entirely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I, I, when I was thinking about what next, uh, ironically enough, I remember thinking I, I was at a retail job. I hate it. And I was like, I want to work in something that I enjoyed. And I was like, you know, if I could work or do anything in life, what would it be? And it was, I would love to get paid to play video Games, you know what I'm saying? And, and I said to myself, I had a friend that was trying to go pro. And I remember saying to myself, am I willing to put in the work in to get better at Call of Duty than Houston? And the answer was no, because Houston was, was like a prodigy.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, and he's trying to break in. He's, uh, not, he's not breaking in. I'm like, I'm not trying to do that, you know. And then I dissected and I realized I, uh, just want to be in a space where, you know, I won't get in trouble for talking about games. Right. And that led me to going on PlayStation's website. And then I, I look for jobs that, that were all based around communication because I'm like, if there's one thing that I'm good at, it's communicating and talking. It's writing, it's talking, you know, it's communicating thought. Um, and I came across a recruitment post and it was perfect. And the only thing that I needed was five years of recruitment experience. So I was like reverse engineer. Let me see where, where I can get that and work myself up to a position where if I see a job at PlayStation again, I'm a viable candidate for it. So when I, when I work with people, like, for people that are nonlinear backgrounds, it's usually based around. I usually always ask him like, yo, okay, I want you to tell me what you're good at. I want you to tell me what you like. Right? Both like to do and just like to consume.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I want you to tell me historically, what have you had success with? Sometimes all those things overlap, sometimes they don't, sometimes are individual. And then based on those three, we kind of break down. We figure out like, what makes the most sense. Right. Um, if somebody was good at math and statistics and they had good memory, right. Um, I would be recommending them either something around the lines of like, data analysis, you know, or business intelligence, um, or software engineering. Right. If someone was really good at organization and communication, right. It's product or project management, depending on like, what their interest is in terms of product features and customer. Customer, um, experience. Um, and then from there, once you figure out, like, what the actual technical execution of the skill is, then we start figuring out. And the one thing I love about tech is that there is a tech sector for everything, right. If you're super passionate about anime, then we reverse engineer what it looks like for you to get a job at Crunchyroll, you know, I'm saying for what it looks like for you to get a job at the time before the acquisition. Funimation. Uh, right, right. Because like, again, like, there are streaming houses or there are ways that cater to what your niche is and depending on like what your job is, that niche or that understanding is going to help elevate you to that. Right? Because I knew that as I knew that, like, I was like, once I get these five years of recruitment experience, I'm gonna be able to recruit any developer I want to work for PlayStation, right? Uh, I'm gonna be able to tell them about the narrative and the story. I'm talking about all the innovating stuff. I'm telling, like, yo, you go, if you come here, you know, you have a high chance of working on Game of the Year stuff, right? Uh, because I already knew that intrinsically, so that's where I'd be working with people at. And then I also ask, like, what is a problem that you truly care about and do you care about working on the solution for it? And that also helps with like, direction. That also helps to kind of people visualizing what's next. And I'll also be real too. Sometimes people tell me like, yo, I just want to get paid. I'd be like, yo, that's fine. I got, I got no problem with that. Right? Here, Here are some paths that will help you get paid, right? You know, you know what? There might be chance you like what you do. On top of that, there might be.

Speaker A: Might be the risk. The risk is high. But, um, yeah, you know, the. You, you said this word, right? I just love how you just tap in the intrinsic kind of value, right, for those candidates. Um, yeah, where that can totally drive the motivation to even learn more. Um, because I think a lot of times when people are transitioning into new industries, right, they're like, I'm going to forget the past me. This is a new year, new me. But in actuality, the old you, you should be leveraging.

Speaker B: Yeah, hundred thousand percent. I always tell people, why. Why do you think that your employer owns the skills that you carry with you in your body, right? They own the time that you work for them, but all the skills you, you carry with them. You know, when I was working at the gym, whenever we used to sell gym memberships, right, they would give us this little thing that they call the fitness Planner. Basically, you open it up and it had a bunch of questions, but the questions were kind of divided up into three categories. NGTs, needs, goal time frame. Right? I still Use that format. When I'm recruiting, I'm recruiting for roles, right? Uh, if I'm talking to somebody, I'm not trying. Like, I have this thing where I'm like, people don't like to be sold, they like to buy, right? You know, saying there's a difference in that, right? And in order to get somebody to buy, you need to communicate a certain level of value in what is it that you're presenting in the opportunity that makes them go, oh, shit, this is what I want. So like, when I'm talking to candidates, I'm still using the skills I learned from the gym.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, they taught me that. But like, you think that they own that. And it's like, you know what I'm saying? And it's like the skills that you have, a lot of people, like you said, a lot of people think that they got to start fresh. But like, uh, the reality is consciously or unconsciously you are learning. And you, like, in a lot of ways you're conditioned to have certain skills that you picked up, uh, at a success or survival that you will be using. And so like, you, uh, rather than being unconscious about it, be conscious about it. So that when people are. Even in the salary negotiation, people are like, oh, you haven't done X, Y and Z. You tell them how you had success stories with those skills and suddenly it's a different conversation.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's the impact. Like, what is the impact? Right. Um, now I love that and that that to me is, ah, is gold. Because I just feel that especially for like, a lot of black folks, I think, like, that can be really intimidating, especially going into an industry where the people interviewing you don't necessarily look like you. Um, but to move on to the next subject, um, what are some trends that you're starting to see in the market? Right. If we think about the past, you know, two, three years, right, Like, I'm not going to get in the code. We all know what Covid is, but, you know, we moved into the remote work. We're now back into sort of this hybrid now. We got folks returning to office. You've got massive amount of layoffs. Um, you know, we've got. That have actually hit a lot of, you know, minorities across the board. Um, and you've got this hostility towards sort of these, you know, DEI programs and ERGs. So what is, what is sort of the status? Like, what are you starting to see? And then on top of that, you got this whole move towards AI.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with regards to the Market itself, I don't think it's a secret. The market is like it's butt right now. It just sucks. It's brutal. Um, people are still getting jobs. Right. But I was telling my, my partner this, like this time last year we helped out like 20, 25 people. And right now we're, we're trending at like 12, maybe 15 for the year. So everything's like down across the board.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, opportunities are still there.

Speaker B: They're just a bit harder to come by.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you kind of have to be like really smart in terms of like how you're applying, right? Mhm. I was working with somebody the other day and she was showing me other different jobs that she was going and applying for and I was like, okay, I, I'll tell you this as a, as a recruiter, if I'm hiring for one role and I got a hundred applicants, I'm not going to, I'm not. My, like the point where I stop looking at applicants isn't when I get to the end of the hundred, it's when I get like maybe 10 or 15 profiles that I want to, I want to speak with and then everything gets put on pause. So like timing. Yeah, timing or influence becomes a big thing when it comes to your application. If you can't be among like the first 50, then your best bet is to try and like, and you still want to get in that specific company. Your best bet then is to try and find somebody that you can kind of get a referral from.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Whether it be someone that's already in your network or like one thing that we do. One thing I love about being the quote unquote job father is that I have a bit of a platform. Right. And either people already know of me or it's not hard for them to find information about me. So I like, I leverage my platform all the time to connect people either with hiring managers directly or C level, um, C level, um, yeah. Executives. To like pitch them to them. And like, if they're like the perfect fit and opportunity, that person will use their influence to be like, hey, we should, we should put this person in the process.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's how you can get somebody in. But if you don't have that, again, it relies a lot on timing and just being properly prepared and showing off your opportunity. So like that's, that in itself is a bit difficult because like there's just so many, there's so much competition out there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So like what we used to be like back in like Two years ago or even three years ago, what would have been like a two to three month search for a new job has now turned into, like, anywhere from a 9 to 18 month search. Right, right. Um, it's just an employer's market. And then when it comes where DEI is concerned, you know, earlier, earlier, before, like, we kicked this off, you and I were joking about how quiet February was, you know, and it was. It was a leap year. It was an extra day in February.

Speaker A: It was.

Speaker B: It was crickets.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So you find that a lot of companies. I won't say that. I won't say that. I won't say that a lot of companies are actively hostile. Hostile towards black folks. Um, I will say that they have a indifference to us. Like, you know, there's. I was speaking with somebody and they were like, yeah, like two years ago, my company would have been like, you can't move forward with this pipeline if it doesn't have a certain amount of diversity in it. And now it's, you know, move forward with the pipeline. If we get a diverse candidate, that's great. You know, we'll strive to keep them great. But if we don't, you know, some still fill the role. It's a win. Right, Right. So, like, that, that is a small change, but it's still a significant change in terms of approach. So I, I do find that a lot of companies is not that. Again, it's not that they're hostile towards dei, it's just that they have become a bit more indifferent about it. But that indifference in itself has empowered the, like, a smaller minority, a smaller toxic minority to speak out against it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And like, you're seeing this everywhere. There was like, the tragedy that happened in Baltimore. Like, I pray for those families, um, and I want to commend, like, the workers because, like, apparently before everything went down, the workers were stopping cars from coming on the bridge. Like, those are. Those are heroes to me. You know what I'm saying? M. I hate that. That incident, instead of us, uh, coming together and mourning heroes from, like, incident that just happened in terms of, like, physics, like, the. The ship lost power and kinetic force of like, there's like 2 million pounds of kinetic force crashed into a. Into a thing. You got people saying that it happened because the mayor was a DEI hire. And I'm just like. I'm like, that's not even how elections work.

Speaker A: That's wild. You know, say, in a city that is predominantly black.

Speaker B: Lee Black, you know, or like the conversation that, um, all the incidents with bowling have been because they prioritize DEI despite the fact like 90 of Boeing's leadership is straight white males.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So it's like, you know, uh, somebody valid bank.

Speaker A: It was the same thing.

Speaker B: Right, Same thing. And I'm just like, you know, when, when they, when they had that kickback against that, that black woman led investor fund that like makes sure that like black women specifically get like a chance at investment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think the stats was like out of like all the investments and the billions of dollars that uh, happened in Silicon Valley, less than like 1% went to black women. And like they were up in arms about it. Right. But it's a vocal minority that feels empowered by the indifference.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And it's almost like this whiplash effect, right. That they had to like sit quiet because, and see all these DEI stuff come in and you know, um, and then they, they, they, they now that they, they have this opportunity to kind of denounce it. And you know, this is like kind of the landscape that we're at. So I wouldn't, I always encourage people like, you know, go where you appreciate, don't go where you're tolerated.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And like, especially if you're black, like, you know, it's only like a small percentage of us that are white passing, you know what I'm saying? Like they gonna know you're black.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, saying there's no point in hiding it and there's no point in trying to adapt to anti blackness.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because that's just, that's just a fool's game. So like there again the indifference is still a thing. Yeah, indifference is still bad. Um, but indifference is, is better than outright hostility. So I would say like, don't try to hide your intentions, don't try to hire, hide your values, your own dei. The people that will speak out against it, will speak out against it. But they're doing you a favor because that allows you to steer clear of them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And there's still a lot of people that are still working and still care about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The difference from leadership, it is what it is. But uh, again you still have people that are working in those orgs that are doing their best to keep that going. And then when AI is concerned, I've been telling everybody, um, you can't be scared of it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, saying like, you can't be scared of AI, you can't be scared of technology. Um, I know it's, it's, it's, it's ah, advancing at a rapid pace. Um, but I think that our imaginations and the fact that we're in a bit of an AI bubble has kind of spearheaded a lot of this fear where people think that we're going to be in an iRobot future and, like, where it's, you know, it's. It's going to be all, you know, someone told me it's either iRobot or Terminator, and I'm like, both. Both those end in, like a robot uprising. So, like, you know, it's not. It's not really. You don't really tell me anything good. But the reality is, is that you will be like, if you're afraid of being replaced at your job, right, you would be replaced by somebod leveraging AI rather than AI in itself that's adapted

Speaker A: and, you know, ready and has, uh, that. That intrinsic motivation.

Speaker B: Right, uh, exactly.

Speaker A: You know, I, you know, I think what you said makes complete sense. I feel that in terms of, you know, corporate, you know, what did you call indifference? I mean, that's definitely where we were pre2020. Right. So kind of back to status quo to a degree. Um, I think there's definitely some companies that have still committed to it, and that's great. Um, but, you know, I think the part that, you know, for me that is always kind of top of mind is that there's just so much noise, right? Yes, there's very few, but in terms of the headlines, it's basically being distributed to the masses, right? Like, whether it be those comments around Silicon Valley bank, whether it be around sort of Baltimore, um, you know, even with AI, right, With. With their Gemini project, that, um, totally rubbed me the wrong way because up to that point, black representation through AI was terrible. And there wasn't any upheaval, uh, in that. Right. And so, no, um, you know, these are, these are, in a sense, headline things where people perceive these as tech and, you know. Yeah, we talk about, you know, opportunities from. From, you know, a money perspective, uh, and being able to contribute. But, you know, does that, does that account for the whole industry? And I feel like that lens probably prevents a lot of. Or a lot of people start to kind of take a step back of like, hey, do I really want to do this? Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, uh, it's tough, man. Like, vocal minorities are power. Are powerful things. You know, saying like, you know, the. The entire population of Twitter, for example, is like, you know, like 60, 60 million or something. But all it takes is a, uh, tweet getting 15,000 likes before, like, systemic change somewhere or Some ripple effect happens. So it's like. Yeah, it is. It is a difficult place. But like, I always, I, uh, I've been encouraging people to also, like, look at things from the lens of, like, being bit of a. Being a bit more opportunistic. Right. Right now, like you said, we kind of did a whiplash back to the status quo.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. But, like, to me, I don't even think that we could ever go back to the status quo because, like, a, we already had progress made and people got a taste of it. Um, and B, we start having those nuanced conversations and start some, some genies you can't put back into the bottle.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Right. So to me, I think that we are, we are trending towards uncharted territory. And this is where you want to, like, start putting your roots in. Like. Yeah, the difficult stage is where you want to start putting your roots in and start building, you know, infrastructure in here, whether it's internal infrastructure within yourself or within a company or your own initiatives. Right. Because when the pendulum swings the other way, you want to be ready. And this works for. This applies to the DEI conversations, but this also applies to AI adoption. Right. I was talking to a researcher the other day, and she was like, I'm worried that AI is going to take my job. And I'm like, nah. Like, you know, you as a researcher, let's say every quarter you average 10 reports. Right? But, um, if you as a researcher leveraging a tool like Perplexity, you know, you're able to produce hundred reports in that same timeframe, Right. Perplexity is not what's. Is not what's going to replace you. The version of you that's leveraging and being able to output, that is what's going to do that replacement. Right. And that is the new status quo. So it's like, people need to start, you know, in this, in this era of uncertainty, in this era of, you know, everything just not being like the way that it used to be. Like, I missed 2005 too. Like, I, I missed 2005. I missed the, the. The 3x white tees and the air and the $80 Air Force.

Speaker A: All the dances coming out of Atlanta,

Speaker B: you know what I'm saying? Houston, too, like the South. Those are, Those days are gone.

Speaker A: Right? Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's like, you know, you could reminisce and get, and get passed over, or you can adapt and take over, and those are your only two choices.

Speaker A: Right? Right. Right. So I want to get in one, uh, last thing. So, yeah, I'M actually going to flip it because originally I was going to say red flags, but actually what are green flags? I feel like there's a lot of conversation about it and we, you know, a lot of coping in that discussion. Um, but you're out on the job search. Whether you're pivoting or whether you're looking to level up. You know, we've seen sort of all this change, right. Like keeping everything we've talked about in mind. Um, what are, what are the green flags? Right. You're saying the way that these workplaces are, has, it's moved beyond the status quo. And so I also feel there's a higher level of consciousness because, you know, people have said the things that they've said. You know, a lot of folks have thrown out their cards around the environment. So what would you say are green flags?

Speaker B: Are we talking about in staying at an opportunity or accepting a new opportunity?

Speaker A: You know, let's, let's go through. I, you know, let's say in a new opportunity, I do like to stay, but I would imagine they're probably consistent.

Speaker B: And I think what I'm going to say applies to like both. So I always tell, I always tell people, people all the time, like uh, be like, ah, uh, you know, you should, you shouldn't be interviewing. You shouldn't be job hopping. And I always say like taking an interview does not. Is not the same as job hopping because it's only job hopping. When you, when you, when you sign your name on a contract, give a, uh, get like, get the clearance from the security checks and then give your, give your resignation at your old job. What, um, I like to, what I always encourage people to do is to always be interviewing because A, you know what your real time market value is, but B, if you decide to stay at your company of uh, where you are, that is an informed decision.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: There is less anxiety that comes with it, you know, right off the bat, you know, you know what you can get at a new job, you know what I'm saying? You know what you can get on that mark, you know what that market looks like and you. And like as a result of also interviewing, if you play your cards right, you're also adding to your network with each interview, even if you turn down the offer, you know what I'm saying? So I like either way, green signs, red flags, you should always be interviewing so that you know your real time value is. And uh, whatever decision that you make is an informed decision.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: When it comes to green flags and new opportunities for me, I always say, write down the stuff that makes you anxious at the top of your list

Speaker A: and ask about them, right?

Speaker B: M. And it's not even like the answers and what is said does matter, but what matters more is how it's said. You know what I'm saying? So when the Pandemic first kicked off, I was telling everybody, all my friends, I'm like, yo, if you are interviewing for a new job, I need you to ask them, how do I know your company is still going to be around in six months? Right? No, but if you were, yo, if you think about it though, you remember. Just like you remember pandemic kicked off. St. Patrick's Day was my homie's birthday. Yeah, it was, it was his 30th birthday. The same one that gave me the job. Father name, by the way, Homies birthday. Whole world shut down on his 30th, right? And like, if you remember from March 20, 2020, till about maybe May 1, right, maybe even May 15, we had a bunch of startups and like, just ill prepped companies fall off of the. And. And we had like a, like a mini, like, layoff wave. M. At first. And then the, the zero interest rate stuff started coming up, and then we had to pivot, uh, to, to remote. And then we had like, the surges everywhere, GameStop memes. You know, it was a crazy time, right? Yeah, uh, all of that, right? But before that, like, companies were dropping off like flies or layoffs were happening. So I was like, yeah, you need to ask, you need to ask the questions that are making you nervous, right? Because if they're interviewing you, they're interested in you. And like, they shouldn't, you shouldn't set yourself up for failure. You shouldn't hit yourself with, like, if something happens, you shouldn't be like, oh, you know, I should have asked that question. Right, Right question. And heard what they said. I would have been able to make that deal. So I, I'd be, I'd be saying, like, ask for the most awkward things. Ask, uh, the things that make you feel anxious. Ask them how. Well, like, how much cash reserves that you got.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Ask them what is their history when it comes to layoffs. Ask them, you know, what happens with disruptions or new technologies when, um, the, the racial reckoning happened, right? I was telling people, black people specifically, ask them when something happens that disrupts or disturbs the black community, how do they make sure that they support their black employees, Right? And even if they don't have anything improper in place, hear what they say and see if it sounds like they're taking steps, either assess or they're taking steps to implement those resources so that they're never caught unawares again. Right. Even though, like, historically, this, this, this, you should never have been caught unawares in the first place. But I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hold you right out of sight, out of mind. I'll just say that, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so green flags is like, you're able to ask awkward questions or questions that, where your anxiety lays and you get an answer that settles that anxiety. That makes sense. That not just sounds good, but it makes sense and that it sounds real. Right. If they ask, if you ask about diversity and they say something like, oh, uh, yeah, you know, we, we pretty diverse and you know, we're happy with our diversity. I remember went for an interview and I remember a company saying like, yeah, we're, we're satisfied with our diversity at, uh. And I went on their, on their employee page and they had no black people. They had a guy with dreads, a white guy with dreads. Wow. And I was like, I was like, this is.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: That is not diversity. Right. Having black hairstyles on, um, now black people is not diversity.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But like, you know, saying it just, it sounded frilly versus an opportunity I actually took when I asked them like, you know, how do you ensure diversity? Or how do you, how do you support your black employees? And the first thing that the person did was take accountability. And they were like, you know, you know, the George Floyd situation was a wake up call for the company. Like we, you always had people talking about the needs that we needed to, we needed to do. But when that wake up call happened, we gave a platform and we sat down, we listened to what these people were, what, what, uh, our internal advocates were saying. We made them stakeholders and we, we, we helped them launch different initiatives. And you know, we're, we did this and we're in the process of doing this and we hope to do this in the future. I'm like, that is a, that is a very thought out answer. And like, you always have to have the asterisk in mind. Like, yo, things could change, obviously. But like, as of right now, that is a thoughtful answer that is both empathetic and informative.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And I'm getting, it's like, don't wait to find out.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Don't leave. Don't leave. Don't leave your future or your destiny in the hands of an Employer that only sees you as far as what accounting tells them to see.

Speaker A: But with that, thank you. Um, my pleasure. Doreen. How can. How can folks learn more about you and find you on the Internet?

Speaker B: Um, if you. If you Google Job Father, I'll come up, which I'm super, super hyped about. Uh, my mom be. Just Googling me randomly, you know, just Job Father Jermaine Murray. Um, if you f. You can follow me on LinkedIn or on Twitter or on Instagram. On Twitter, it's the job file with two underscores afterwards. On, uh, LinkedIn, it's Jermaine Murray. I'm the one with the Jamaican flag. You always got to rep my. Or you got to rep my people. Um, and you can find me on Instagram at Jermaine the Job father, or on TikTok at the job Father. Or, you know, if you ever have any questions about careers or what tech jobs may good be good for you, hit, uh, up my website, JupiterHR.ca and just send a request.

Speaker A: Awesome. We'll include all of this in the show notes. Don't, um, go looking for Audio Chocolate, though.

Speaker B: Please don't. Please don't, please don't, please don't. I know my partner's in the other room, and, uh, she definitely heard me say Audio Chocolate. Every time I say it, she, like, dies a little on the inside. She's been begging me to stop telling the story, but I'd be like, it's a good story. Like, it's a ridiculous name. Like, thank God that didn't stick, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, well, I. Look, it's gonna. It's gonna stick in our. In our listener's brain. So we just went from one to many. And so I will.

Speaker B: I will say this.

Speaker A: If.

Speaker B: If you reach out to me. If you reach out to me, either call me Jermaine or the Job Father. Don't call me Audio Chocolate. Don't. Don't call me Job Papi. Don't call me Job Daddy. It's.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: Did you say Job Coffee?

Speaker B: Job Poppy?

Speaker A: Job Hoppy. Oh, Poppy.

Speaker B: Like. Like Poppy Chulo? Yeah, like that was a name. Yeah. Yo, I have gotten some. Some wild DMS in my life, right? Um, Job. Job. For some reason, whenever someone calls me Job Daddy, I get this nasty. Like, yeah, I feel like I'm being harassed. Yeah, that.

Speaker A: That's.

Speaker B: That's nasty, right?

Speaker A: That's crossing the boundaries.

Speaker B: Job Daddy is nastier than Audio Chocolate.

Speaker A: All. Uh, right, we're gonna end it here. Thank you so much, Jermaine My pleasure, Harrison.