Technology Isn’t the Hero: The Hard Truth About Leadership in the AI Era

Speaker A: Well, welcome back, everybody. You know, I am so appreciative of receiving, uh, a lot of feedback from you all. And, you know, many of you say how much you appreciate my storytelling, but in reality, I like to kind of correct that a little bit to say I'm really not a storyteller. I'm a teller of other people's stories. And today I've got this amazing pleasure and the honor of being the teller of a very special story of my good friend, Sal Compagne. Sal is the chief digital information officer of commercial real estate powerhouse Cushman and Wakefield. In every great story, there's a protagonist that's the main character right at the center of the drama. How many times have you heard or read stories about CIOs that go something like this? Technology is the hero. Transformation is the plot. And people. Well, they're the supporting cast. But what makes Sal's story so cool, so compelling, so special, is she flips the script because in her story, the people are the protagonists, they're the heroes. It sets her company up to win, which is the plot. Technology is the accelerator, and leadership is the director. So with that, what happens when a leader rewrites the story in that way? Well, you're going to about to find out because I've got seven mystery questioners plus myself providing you with a 360 degree view of Sal and her leadership superpowers. So let's listen into this first mystery question.

Speaker B: Hi, my dear Sal. So one of the things I've always appreciated in our work together is the fact that you never let technology become the main actor in the story. You start with the business, with the people, with the real world friction that needs solving, and then you use tech as the accelerator. And I think that mindset is putting Cushman on the front line of automation and innovation. And that's not because of tools. I think that's because of leadership. I think it's because of your leadership. And you have this genuine superpower, the ability to dig deep and solve complex problems with clarity while staying deeply attuned to the human dynamics inside. Change you see people, the hopes, the hesitation, the energy. And it's something that I have always admired about you since we started working together, and it has shaped the way we've partnered. So here's my question, Sal. When you're driving change at scale, the kind that reshapes behavior and mindsets and ways of working, how do you tap into that human centered intuition of yours to help people, not just excel, accept the change, but truly Adopt it and feel ownership of it.

Speaker C: Wow. Um, that. Hi, Dan. I'm so grateful to be here. Um, and beyond grateful that my first question was from a good friend and what I refer to as my soul sister, uh, Ms. Mia Mens. The incomparable Ms. Mia Mens. She is CEO of our CNW Services business and an incredible human being and leader. So I am grateful for her to not only take the time to do the question, but, um, a thoughtful question at that. Um, look, it would be superbly performative for me to say that I know how to do it any other way. Uh, I don't. My lived experience has really helped me create a muscle that I lean on pretty much every day. It's the ability to kind of pull myself out of the situation and really see through multiple lenses at once. Um, oddly enough, this was built out of what some might call trauma. Uh, when I was super little, I moved from the U.S. uh, uh, to the U.S. from Iran, and spoke pretty much no English or very little English. And I remember sitting in their classroom, consuming it all, and then at the end of the day, running home and asking my cousins, like, what does that word mean? And then having a reaction. Superbly delayed, obviously, 24 hours. And so there's a part of me that can never be in a room, at a dinner, in a conference room, at a conference, and not read the room through the lens of others. And so that's kind of a muscle I've built over time. That, plus many years in consulting, where you learn at pace, you question at pace, and you have to kind of come up with your information at a really, um, high level. It's given me the fortitude to be in a room and watch the anxiety of the person who doesn't think they have enough technology background. Watch the anxiety of the business leader who is looking to scale their business and doesn't quite know the place of technology. And Tamia's point to do that at a scale of our organization, um, it's where I have the most fun. You've heard me say it before. The tech is kind of like, yeah, okay, it's nice, uh, but I adore the human change and the unlocking of people's thinking. Not about just the operations and the technology, but really, really seeing themselves through a different lens. It just takes a little bit of coaching, takes a little bit of context, but mostly it takes empathy. No one wakes up every morning trying to do, you know, either harm or not be accessible or not change enough. They genuinely sometimes just lack context. And so what we've done here at Kushman, which has been superbly helpful, is honor the fact that we are all a piece of a puzzle. No one component is going to be the hero. And so we've created these incredibly agile, well knit, deeply trusted cohorts of colleagues, um, that help each other through it. And I don't think there's any other way to do that. But I'm grateful for Mia, for the question.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're getting an immediate appreciation, uh, for the immense talent at Cushman Wakefield. Right. The, the leadership talent. Uh, you and me are great examples. We're going to have more examples here shortly. So just a little teaser there for you, Sal, but, you know, and thank you for sharing a little bit of your origin story because I think it's really a special part of who you are and how you got here. And so thank, uh, you for that and thank you, Mia, for. I know she was very enthusiastic about being part of this, so appreciate her. And so your soul sisters helped us write the first chapter of this story. Okay. And one of the amazing points that deserves, I think, deeper dive is how you and your team are setting Cushman up as a true innovation leader. I mean, there's some really exciting things under the covers there. There's some things you can share, there's some things I know you can't. But, um, you know, one of my favorites, and there's probably others that I'm missing, but the AI impact barometer is so amazing. It's so good. It's on the website of the company website, so people can go see it, but maybe talk about that, Sal, and the audiences it's benefiting, the problems it's solving, the questions it's answering for the customer.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, look, it's a body of work we are immensely proud of as an organization. Our research organization has been world class forever and they continue to knock it out of the park. This is a, um, conversation that we're all a part of. Right. But it's all through the lens of where the technology is going. How well do we transform? How well do people engage in change? And if you think about commercial real estate, there are segmentations, uh, of work that have to happen well before you can feel the actual change. If you're an investor in real estate, how do your occupiers actually change? And what does that look like for you? And so there's a lot of noise around the what, and there's not as much clarity. Clarity around the so what? And so what. We aim to do with our research team is to really, really drive clarity for our clients, both on the investor side and the occupier side, to be able to think through the impact of AI through their organizations through multiple models of what does employment patterns look like, what will office utilization look like, what does retail behavior look like? And so we wanted to draw real clarity by modeling out different potentials and having them have that engagement with the information to really sit back and think through what it could look like and then engage with us as we work through helping our clients. We have brilliant consulting teams that will come in and work with the clients to really personalize the journey to them. Um, a head of commercial real estate may not be actively involved with their CIO and in the transformation a particular organization's going through. But our team kind of helps them really rationalize the questions to ask the conversations to get uh, involved in and then be able to translate that to what does your long term strategy look like? Generally speaking, leases are long term commitments. So you're not doing a tomorrow agile sprint of outcome. You're making some really big bets around the organization's change appetite, their investment appetite, their actual current ways of working and the potentials of AI to transform that. And so the research team has been able to package that in a really, um, consumable manner for our clients. So the audiences, our clients, there's investor community, there are just general population of just trying to be able to understand the potential impact on the built world. So we always think office, it's not just office. Right. What happens to data center usage increase? What happens to industrial, what happens to retail, higher education? All of these different segmentations of assets are key to our clients and their ability to be able to make really, really well grounded decisions with data. Um, and our research team has been exceptional at being able to produce that.

Speaker A: So good. Well, I want everybody to go check that out on the website because it's pretty, it's pretty impressive.

Speaker C: Chapter two just dropped, uh, yesterday I believe. So I encourage everybody to go into the next, uh, kind of double click into the research that we've done, um, on our website. It's great work.

Speaker A: What a differentiator. And I didn't know that. So thank you, I'm going to go do that myself. Uh, so every story has that moment where the protagonist has to make sense of the chaos. So you just talked about the noise, right? Uh, so with that I've got the perfect mystery question to help us understand how great CIOs like, you know, how to cut through the noise cut through the chaos and where to prioritize and where to make the big bets. So you're going to know who this is right away. And once again, wow, wow, wow on these amazing women, female leaders at, uh, Cushman. So there's a little hint for you, Sal.

Speaker D: One of your superpowers is the ability to really intentionally listen broadly to help connect the dots across a large international organization. Listening always sounds simple, but listening across a 53,000 person organization is hard, hard work. It's listening across continents, diverse businesses and cultures. How do you actually listen for those patterns and decide what really matters the most?

Speaker C: Ms. Victoria Malkin. Um, my goodness, I'm so excited to hear her voice. Um, Victoria is our brilliant, brilliant, uh, leader in the Americas. Um, and I am so grateful for her partnership, um, and I'm grateful for her to elevate this portion of the leadership because I actually work really hard at it. Um, look, to me, ultimately it comes down to my leadership behavior as well as the actions that I model. I hope to model deep curiosity and humility in equal parts. Um, I hope I'm never the smartest person in the room, um, and I'm always challenged. But in order to listen at scale, I think there's two key elements to it. One is your style and your engagement modeling. And two is creating a space for a way of working that always permeates ideas and enables real, real transparent dialogue. This all started as a journey for us as leadership team, um, under our phenomenal CEO Michelle McKay, where we were intentional and deliberate around the work we all put in to become leaders and become a team at the leadership team. Um, there's one thing to be a cohort, there's another thing to be a truly well oiled team, deeply rooted in trust and equal part accountability. And so it starts with us as leaders. And as Victoria knows, what we've done is for the last few years is rebuild the trust equilibrium, uh, between the business and technology. It was undoubtedly broken for a period of time. And so my team and I have spent a number of years rebuilding that trust. And that rebuild was grounded on a couple of things. One, our way of working had to change. Um, we had to start doing co creation of technology with our business partners. Not in a manner of gathering requirements, going away and coming back, but really deeply understanding their business, deeply understanding their client outcomes that they're trying to mature, um, and having a seat at the table. It seems simple, but it's really hard to understand context if you're not at the table. And so we've completely reshaped the way we work as a cohort. Um, there's co creation teams across the organization. It allows for business to augment on understanding the capabilities of technology. At the same time it gives my team front row to the problems that they're trying to solve. So that's kind of one angle of it. The other angle of it is how I engage and how I engage across my entire team. I believe in being approachable. I believe in knowing my people and not just the role, but the human behind them and learning from them and modeling curiosity and really vividly setting a baseline on what acceptable looks like. But not on just the what, the technology, but on the how. So if I'm modeling behaviors like not apologizing, if I'm leaving, um, something to go deal uh, with my family or pick up a kid, or if I'm modeling the ability to listen intently to somebody's concern and not escalate it, but just engage with it, um, all of those elements together allow for me to have a really, really deep pulse on what's happening. What are our clients asking for, what experience are our colleagues, um, going through, how is my team reacting to that? And all three of those are critical data points for me to step back and out of the everyday and be able to see a really clear picture of where we need to place bets, where we need to potentially support our colleagues, where we might need to reshape team structures, all of which are tools in the tool belt to be able to maintain this deep proximity and this awareness and um, enablement of real good feedback. Right. Um, what's the saying? Like not all feedback has to be great feedback, but all feedback is great. It's either, it doesn't need to be positive, but um, creating an environment where you can challenge and have your challenge be incorporated into kind of the next turn of the dial is super helpful. And it's been um, a key, key driver of why we've been able to maintain such agility as a organization. Because we've spent so much time desiloing not just uh, our organizational structure, but our genuine way of working and building trust at every level of the organization to be able to continue to accelerate towards that journey. And Victoria, um, if anyone gets the opportunity, engaged, she is one incredible leader, um, and is yet another one that models both incredible insights as well as high empathy.

Speaker A: Yeah, everyone says she's so good and I mean we see why she's president of the Americas Market, which is pretty, pretty big deal. Right? So thank you to Her. And you know, Sal, from my observations too, I think you do this curiosity, humility, feedback with such great balance of care. You know, it's that old quota of people don't know. People don't know what, don't care what you know till they know that you care. And so that's evident. But at the same time you do it with candor and clarity, you know, and there's a, um, I heard someone, I was leading a panel this week and One of the CEOs said, you know, um, clarity is kindness, you know, and even if you don't like the clarity, you know, at least, you know. Right. And so it's your transparency, right? That's right. So valuable, especially when you're making these big turns like you just described, what you described is really hard to do and you know, uh, moving that ship. Well, we're going to pivot. I've got, uh, you know, the picture. I think we're getting the picture. It's not complete yet, but we're getting the picture. Right. So another dimension of your leadership is going to reveal itself through this Next mystery question. 20 year superpowers. And it's a voice who lives, uh, in this world every day with you and has that front row seat to see how you make these hard calls, make the bets, where to make the investments, where to prioritize. So let's check this one out, Sal.

Speaker E: In capital markets, we're constantly deciding where to deploy limited capital for maximum long term return. What I've always admired is how you bring that same discipline to technology. Knowing when to invest boldly, when to prototype quietly, and when to say no altogether. When you're balancing innovation with risk, how do you decide which bets truly deserve enterprise scale commitment?

Speaker C: Um, my good friend, Mr. Miles Treaster.

Speaker A: That's an amazing question. I love that question.

Speaker C: He is our head of America's capital, uh, markets and an incredible friend, um, and advocate for transformation. So to have these leaders in the business who not only want to see your personal growth and success, but really genuinely want to engage in finding, uh, chapter two of Transformation across the Organization is super, super, um, empowering. And um, I'm grateful for every single one of them. Thank you, Myles, for the time and for the question. When I first took the seat, um, we did this simple exercise of taking capacity and capital of technologists and overlaying it with the growth trajectory and revenue of the organization. And what became abundantly clear was we were doing a lot of great work, except none of it was material. We were. What I love the phrase that I love to use internally is we were masters of whack. A molecular, um, every idea came up, we performed it, we did it, it went down. Every new capability that we could think of. People were working so hard, spending so many hours, and yet the material pivots weren't happening fast enough. And so to Miles's good point, we made the change that I explained earlier in terms of the ways of working and embedding technologists into the business. So that the goal, um, as I'm sure you've heard me say to my team, is if I walk into a room, I should really not know who the technologist is and who the business leader is. Because you have to be able to be malleable to the conversation of exactly what the business outcomes are. You can then take it back and have a deep technology conversation. But for us, that proximity to the client helps tremendously with understanding where to place big bets. And the trust that we've built helps me in the quiet innovation, uh, pods, be able to ideate, create and get to 60, 70% then have a conversation. Because underpinning that is, I know the business deeply, we know their data deeply, we know client outcomes. And so what we want to do is try and reimagine things differently and bring the business along for the ride, um, at appropriate times. And that's been huge for us. We've been able to use this collaboration methodology along with our agile development, partnered with our emerging technology team whose sole dedication is to reimagine, reimagine how the work can get done, how does knowledge get transferred, how does the actual client engagement take place? Really reimagine it, um, to a place where then you can educate in the business, you can sit down and kind of think through ideation differently. I find especially post AI, it's a lot easier to iterate on ideas than to take a white canvas and start. And so my team has the onus and challenge of taking it from a white canvas to uh, actually the edges have been sketched out and then we co create that last mile with the business to make sure that it's superbly fit for purpose, it meets and exceeds client demand. But in that entire workflow, in that entire engagement model, there is such, um, genuine understanding and desire for transformation that every single step is material to our outcome. And so for me the big bold bets are those that we are visible to. We need to garner a lot of um, um, partnership and um, advocacy for the smaller quiet ones are the ones that we're trying to Potentially reshape an entire way of working. We're not quite sure how we're going to tinker, think through it, and then reveal and kind of take that last smile, co creation, um, and all the way to adoption. And then in terms of the enterprise, um, change management. It's really about over communication. If we start in a path that we believe there's going to have a tremendous enterprise outcome, we do lean on our network, we lean on our over communication, we lean on our partnerships. Miles and I will text about something and say, what do you think? Do you think it's going to work? And then we give ourselves like that few days, weeks, months, however long it is to tinker, for lack of a better term. But you've heard every single study in the market right now of X percentage of AI projects never going from pilot to production. This way of working, this deep proximity and partnership with the business is the reason why Cushman's metrics are complete. Opposite Cushman, um, pilot to production is higher than 75% because we're not piloting for the sake of piloting. We're piloting with a clear, clear view of the North Star and able to actually balance this bottoms up, top down transformation business, um, line by business line. And that's what that cohesion at, ah, every layer and trust at every layer that I keep repeating, they're so core to our ability to be agile. Um, and when you have partners like Miles, it is superbly, uh, not only rewarding to do, but, um, it is a great balance of great fun and great outcome all at the same time.

Speaker A: So fun and talk about building trust, the organization, right? And the vision, the journey, you know, when you flip that equation, you know, I mean everyone knows the MIT study, you know, 95% of pilots don't scale, haven't scaled. And so, uh, something you unpacked. And by the way, thank you Miles, for the very, uh, thoughtful question. Um, something you said there, Sal, I want to double click on from a different angle you talked about. When we walk into a room, I don't want it to be obvious who are quote unquote business, who's quote unquote tech, right? And I have a little mini case study and I want to unpack. Uh, Michelle McKay, I want you to talk about her. Michelle McKay, your CEO. I had a unique exposure last fall. You had an off site. I had, uh, the ability to be there and speak to your leadership team and to see her, uh, zoom in, be part of it, See, um, the dialogue between the two of you. Um, it was pretty special. You could see the partnership, you could see the, the trust in each other. But what I noticed is you have such a business forward style and she is a very tech savvy executive CEO, right? So there were times where you like, you could have said, hmm, m. I wonder who's who. So talk about that special partnership. Talk about your amazing CEO and how integral she is to all the things that are happening, the innovation that are happening.

Speaker C: At the risk of completely fangirling here for a few minutes, uh, Michelle is a phenomenal CEO and leader for our organization. She has a amazing history with the organization. Um, she was a member of our board, um, first and foremost brought in by the, um, chairman of the board at the time. Came in and was such an impact on the board that there was a desire to bring her in house. And uh, she has been one of the biggest, uh, catalysts for change across the organization. Um, as CEO, she has set the tone for candor, she has set the tone for teamship, and she has set the tone for enterprise first mindset. Right? And there is very clear, um, understanding of expectations. There's very clear, um, understanding of both the ways of working that she wants all of us to continue to strive to um, model as well as just the genuine client centricity that we want to bring to the table. Right. For every single client of Cushman Wakefield to feel the power of our collective platform, to feel and experience, uh, what she likes to call the Cushman brain. It's the collective of the intellect, the experience, the data, proximity. Um, and she's what most would love to have as a CEO. She is a huge advocate for being AI forward. She is prudent, um, but she challenges you really well. And her and I have a trust that I believe to be, um, integral to our ability to partner and to be able to continue to elevate the organization through this journey. Um, as you said, transformations of this scale for 108-year-old organization that was built predominantly through acquisition, um, they take different type of leadership and it's not always going to be the mandates from the top that gets it done. We're all going to have to show up, um, and lead with great, great respect for each other and humility. But really, really crisp camper M. Yeah, so good.

Speaker A: I appreciate that. And you know, I had a reflection back to that day. I was with your team. It was in Boston. And you know, I've done hundreds of these off sites and things like that, which I love. But you had an Ask of me that I've never had before. I said, what are you going to do? And do, uh, you remember what you told me?

Speaker C: Equal part, educate and agitate?

Speaker B: Uh, uh-huh.

Speaker D: Huh.

Speaker A: That's right. I've never had that request before.

Speaker C: Yep. It is a favorite, uh, grounding statement for myself. It's, uh, everybody needs a little bit of help poking and agitating their thinking

Speaker A: once in a while, you know, it was a really good, uh, challenge, to be honest with you. I appreciated it. It was a lot of fun. Your team, I wasn't sure how they would respond. They responded well. I should have expected a team of yours would respond very well. They leaned into the agitation. I really appreciate them and gotten to know a lot of them since then.

Speaker C: They are grateful for your partnership and, um, if any of your listeners have not had you join them for leadership off site, uh, you m. Were a hit. So thank you for your partnership. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Well, so, so fun. What a gift. And, um, yeah, you know, I want to pick up on, um, Victoria, uh, had a question a minute ago, and I want to pick up on her question. And another mystery questioner from another colleague who's going to help, help us shine the light on, um, maybe how you have this gift, this appreciation for how you are able to see around corners. You know, that superpower of beyond anticipate. And again, someone who's got a front row view. I met him at that event, actually. So, uh, let's hear from our good friend here.

Speaker F: Sal. I'm fortunate enough to see and learn firsthand how you've kept us all focused on solving real business problems, not just chasing technology for its own sake. That's a big part of why we've been able to stay ahead, even through this latest iteration of real tech disruption in the form of AI. As you look forward, what do you think? Leaders in our space are still underestimating about where work automation, revenue, product and client expectations are all heading. How are you thinking about positioning all of us for that future?

Speaker C: That is my friend Simon Springett and our incredible chief technology officer. Um, thank you, Simon, for taking the time. And, um, I'm sure everybody who's ever met Simon will say that, um, he is an incredible human being with a big heart and incredible intellect and work ethic. So I am grateful to have him as a member of my team. Um, in terms of what I see and how I look around the corner, uh, there's a couple things. One, um, I believe in learning at all times. I believe that, uh, you always have to have this sense of deep curiosity. And with AI in particular, you have to get your hands dirty. You have to get in there and be able to engage and be able to think differently and help you reshape uh, what you thought possible was, was um, even a short six months ago. Um, and so for the way that we like to do it here at Cushman and I think it's worked for us and it's authentic to us is that one, nothing is off the table. We have a brand motto that says that better never settles. And we could be on a hypercare call for a huge initiative that we've just done. And quite literally everybody on the call is like, so what do you think we should do next? How do we turn it up one more level here? And that is just true m to our DNA. Um, and we've been exceptional at being able to always, always put all our cards on the table and really challenge each other. So if you take a leadership team that is very, very clear on the mission and vision, you take a communication channel that it's desiloed and um, able to really think about the client experience of the client outcome first, the enterprise outcomes first versus a P and L or a service line or you know, a function, you put all those things together, then you layer on top of it an emerging technology team that has a deep, deep connection to venture capital or sitting on a lot of startup, uh, advisory boards. We're talking to uh, the likes of Anthropic on a regular basis. We've created this environment for ourselves that continuous learning is going to happen and is expected, deep curiosity is expected and enabled and we've built ourselves as an ecosystem model where we in no shape believe that all of the answers are in the room. Um, and we have reshaped the room. Uh, we have incorporated thought leadership, we've incorporated startup advisory, we've incorporated venture capital. Um, as you know, um, I do a lot of communication with my peers because I think right now it's where uh, research and physicians were post Covid where there was this huge sense of community and we are all going to kind of strive to work together to get this done. I feel like that's what the CIO community is right now. The CIO community is genuinely working together to kind of do the deep lessons learned, do the ideation think through different ways of working and different technology, um, architecture that actually solves these material problems because we're all addressing it at pace that none of us have ever had to do before. And we're Guiding our organizations through true business transformation just happens to be in a world where the technology's moving at an incredible pace. Um, and I think all of those parts kind of help us stay ahead and look around the corner. But if I was being honest, the most critical part is to be okay with being wrong. We might make a bet that doesn't work in a year, and that's okay. And giving ourselves the permission to turn, um, I think is gonna be important and something we'll continue to lean on.

Speaker A: Yeah, you just gave a, um, kind of a white paper on what does it take to build a really smart, nimble, innovative, hardworking, dedicated team that's having fun and making a difference? And like you said, it's not just the answer in the room. We're reshaping the room as we go, and that's so important. And my challenge to our CIO community, Sal, you're right. It's. And I would say it's only about 20% of the community that's really actively engaged the way you described. And you know what? I can see who the winners are right now, and it's a subset of that group. Uh, so for those of you that don't like to get out or like to hang in, uh, in the four walls, it ain't gonna work so well. So, uh. Um, speaking of fun, thank, uh, you, Simon, for. For your great question. And, um, when I was at your event the night before, you hosted a dinner, uh, right there locally. And all of a sudden, out of the middle of nowhere, everyone busted out, like, loudly, and a happy birthday to Simon. Only I found out it was like, the fifth time you did it. That was like. He was so funny. He was just like, yep, okay, this is going to happen again.

Speaker G: Um,

Speaker C: I, um, have a saying which is, ah, it can come across morbid, but it really isn't. We say it often within the team. None of your tombstones will say the name of the company, but you sure hope the people that are there are the ones you made an impact on while you're working together. Um, and that is so, uh, indicative of the way we all show up together. Right? We have a ton of fun. It could be the most stressful moment in the world, but someone knows it's their job to crack that joke. So enlighten the mood and take the kind of pressure out of the room. And I, um, am equal parts proud of the intellect and challenge that my team leads, as I am about the parents that they are, the humans that they are, the caretakers of their parents that they are, um, and we have a ton of fun. So, uh, grateful to each and every one of them.

Speaker A: Yeah. Sal, you made me just think one of the marks of a great leader. Kind of picking up what you just said about impact on people. And you care very deeply about people. You want them to be thriving today, in the future. Um, if there are folks who are not part of the plan, if they're not in it, you help them, you know, find what is right. And that's again, that's clarity and that's healthy. The other thing that you do very well, I don't know if you, you uh, know if you're aware of this, but you help people unlock like what's possible. Like you help people accomplish more individually, but especially collectively that I don't think they ever knew that they could do. And so last weekend I was out, uh, doing some yard work and I was listening to this song and there was a verse and I'm like, I replay it. I'm like, that is Sal. So I'm going to play this for you right now and you tell me if this makes sense or not. Just tell me if this connects. Okay. So, uh, it may not be your genre of music, I don't know. But check it out.

Speaker H: But nobody wins afraid of losing. And the hard roads, all the ones were choosing. Someday we'll look back and smile and know it was worth every mile.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker A: Is that right on or what is that right?

Speaker C: Spot on. That is spot on.

Speaker A: Chris Stapleton. You know, you get a little sense of some of the music I like to play, but uh, I'm like that nobody wins afraid of losing.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: If you're afraid of losing, you don't show it because you just like, you just keep going, right? It's like we're gonna go do this and I feel it.

Speaker C: No, I am so excited to keep this kind of pressure on myself, but also just create this environment of energy and positivity to make change and where it works, where I'll over celebrate and when it doesn't, we pivot.

Speaker A: Well, I know all your folks are gonna listen to this, watch this podcast and I just want them to look out if they're in that valley right now, that hard place. Cause you're doing hard things. Just remember, someday we'll look back and smile and know it was worth every mile.

Speaker C: Every mile. I love it. Every month, I love it.

Speaker A: Well, I actually have two more mystery questions. Questioners who are gonna actually put some more color on this, right? So gonna help us really Appreciate the how, like how you go and do this. And I think you'll recognize this, this first, uh, this first question. So, so check it out.

Speaker G: One of the things that I've recognized and come to admire most about your leadership style is the way where you're able to maintain high results from your team while also creating a close bond with each and every one of your team members. How are you able to create such a strong balance between the two and ensure that your personal lives can remain personal during times of professional conflict and professional work?

Speaker A: That is a power packed question from a high powered young man that you, I think you know this, this gentleman.

Speaker C: I kind of know him. Uh, and for future guests, do not recommend your children. This is a, ah, this is a, um, that is my brilliant, brilliant 17 year old Kuros. And I, uh, am so grateful for my kids and the way they show up for me and my God, do I learn something from them every single day. So, um, but to the questions balance, uh, between personal and professional and that weird gray line in between. I believe every environment is a chance to create community. It could be your school, it could be your neighbor, it could be your job. And I think in that community you cultivate this sense of, um, belonging and this sense of challenge. But you can't do that if you don't know the whole human. You can't be transactional as a leader. You can't pass through conversations and not understand that the behavior may be tied to, um, a strain at home might be tied to a loved one that's ill, maybe tied to the anxiety of where's your kid gonna go to college? Right. So I believe strongly in, I think it's an overused term, bringing your whole self to work. But I believe strongly in my people knowing me. And so there are days where my people get texts and it says something to the effect of I am not at my best self today, um, and so try to limit what is coming my way. And I hope to have modeled that for them. I hope to have modeled this relentless passion to not choose between your career and your family because it is not a choice. It is one of those things that you have to seamlessly weave together, um, and indication of my kids knowing my whole team, uh, us knowing each other's kids, and we could have never met before. There could be on teams or, um, on zoom at all times. But man, oh man, do you know when their next play is or you know when their next milestone birthday is? And that cohesiveness, that team that shares recipes on the Weekend, but then jumps in and does massive transformation via AI on Monday. Um, that is a gift and I am grateful that my team and broader Cushman at Wakefield, uh, show up that way for each other every single day because it allows us to have the kids that can do these type of questions for you.

Speaker A: I mean, it's all just cooking, right? There's menus, there's work, it's, uh, the right ingredients, just, you know, all of it.

Speaker C: It's all cooking. Just put on your apron and go.

Speaker A: Can I speak about your son for a minute?

Speaker C: Can I just take a course?

Speaker A: Can I, Can I, can I brag on him? Because I've had the honor of meet him too. And, um, this, this. He's 17, he's a senior, he's off to Duke next year. He's also the co. Founder and COO of a company, Trow. That's going to be amazing. He's, um, he's going to be, ah, a future billionaire, a future president, a future CEO. Probably all the above.

Speaker C: Let us hope.

Speaker A: I'm not just saying that because we're here, but he's like the real deal. I had him come out to a dinner I hosted recently, a Seattle dinner, and he owned the room. I mean, he walked in and he's just got this very confident, calm, and, uh, anyways, we're recording this on the eve of Mother's Day, so on behalf of Kourush and your family, happy Mother's Day.

Speaker C: Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. And I so appreciate the engagement. He has learned so much with even just the dialogues with you, and he's so grateful. So thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I learn and get inspired every time, so thanks for making that connection. And I've got one more really great, deeply personal mystery, uh, question. If you didn't think that was enough and, you know, uh, a little different vantage point. And so I want to play the tape and, uh, love to have you tell us about the special person, what she's meant to you, and so many across the industry as well.

Speaker I: Hi, Sal. You have many superpowers, but the one that I find I have come to admire the most is your ability to connect leadership with the building blocks of belonging, listening, growth, and diversity. In your view, how does a technology leader successfully as you have, create an authentic sense of belonging across diverse teams? Particularly when the talent spans different generations, functions, and cultural backgrounds.

Speaker C: Oh, my, it's Diana McKenzie, um, one of my genuine favorite humans on the planet. Um, a mentor of mine and someone who I hope, I hope that I can live up to the praise and, um, the modeling of behavior that she set for all of us in technology, um, especially women in technology. Um, we are all grateful for her paving such an incredible path. Not through just Amgen and Workday, but now so many boards that are benefiting from her. So I'm grateful to you, Diana, for taking the time for the question. Um, ooh, have to take that one in for a minute.

Speaker A: Um, Diana's special. She is.

Speaker C: Diana is very special.

Speaker A: Yeah, she. And, you know, for our audience. Um, she and Karen Ann Tirrell were my guests on episode 48. So I was getting questions every week from CIOs, getting to that place of being ready to pivot into the next chapter, and they have excelled at it. Right. So, uh, anyways, go. If you're within 10 years of that thought process, go listen to that podcast because they just.

Speaker C: That was a phenomenal episode. They're both incredible, uh, human beings who've had the. I've had the honor to get to know both of them and grateful for not only just the work they've done, but the openness by which they share their learnings. Um, it's a real gift to all of us that I've been able to meet them and spend some time with them. All right, so authenticity. Um, I said it at the beginning of this too. I don't know how to do it differently. Um, I am not a transactional person by nature. And, um, sometimes that may not be the best thing for my, uh, kind of protection of your own heart and your mental health. But, um, I stand by it. I stand by my decision to make sure that people can show up and be seen in every level of an organization. Um, I stand behind my desire to really lift up the voices of everybody in the room and making sure that your. Whether it is your gender, your age, your proximity to technology, whatever it may be, should be the deciding factor of if you can, um, materially shape a transformation. And some of the best ideas and some of the best outcomes we've been able to achieve is because we've listened really, really deeply into the organization and really given space for those that, um, have historically held these c, uh, suite seats at such a, um, almost like an unattainable thing to reach for. And I know from my own personal experience, when, uh, I met Diana, probably seven or eight years ago, if she had asked me if I would ever take this type of seat or if I ever saw myself in this seat, it would be a sub. Second response of absolutely not. Um, because I Genuinely didn't. I didn't see myself in these types of seats. And so I am on a mission to make sure that I remove the mystery that is the C suite and open the doors to as many people as um, have the desire, have, um, the passion for genuine leadership. Not just the title, but genuine leadership. Um, and I will do my best to create space for them to grow. But I believe, um, my why of being on this planet is to be a connector of people. And whether that's connecting you to my son or whether it's connecting um, a business leader to a technologist that can help them, whatever that is, um, in any shape or fashion, I think you have to be generous with your time and with your learnings because that's kind of how we all got here. Um, so why not share it?

Speaker A: Yeah. And you are absolutely that. And you and I had that trait too. We both had that mindset of being a net giver. Right? Like just help, serve and no expectation or reciprocity. And gosh, is that fun. And I don't feel worthy, but it comes back tenfold somehow, you know.

Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. You gotta just keep putting your energy into others. And my, oh my, does the universe pay back.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you, Diana. Just uh, what a gift to anybody that's in her sphere and uh, appreciate her so much. And I think it's maybe a good time for us to pivot to the uh, scholarship. The tech for good scholarship. We've talked a lot about that and we both share that passion for helping others in our profession. And gosh, we're over a half million dollars now in commitments through that uh, that scholarship. But I have a hunch as to who is going to be the recipient of this scholarship.

Speaker C: It is the incredible organization of T200, uh, which for those of uh, your listeners that may not know, is a non for profit, uh, built for, built by women in technology to create more uh, space and opportunities for growth for uh, CIOs, um, throughout um, their careers. And um, it has been an organization that has paid many a times over for my own growth. And I'm committed to helping them continue, uh, to grow the next generation.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, people familiar with the show, they've heard T200 several times because it's probably the most recognized STEM nonprofit because of the great work they're doing. And so T as the letter t200.org I believe it is. And uh, check it out because it's a really, really powerful group doing amazing work. So yeah, thanks. Thanks to them and thank you Sal for that. And I've got one more question for you and I want to keep this for last. Somebody who's known you longer than most and, uh, again has another, ah, special take on the incredible human that you all that you are. And, uh, so, yeah, let's just have some fun with this.

Speaker J: I think one of Salome's greatest superpowers is her generosity. She is generous with her time, her knowledge, her expertise. She's generous with her infectious spirit and her laugh. I have been the recipient of her generosity more times than I can ever count as her friend. But in my experience, sometimes the higher you climb in your career, the further you get away from generous people. Responsibilities and expectations can weigh down the best of us. How does Salome stay true to herself and keep that generosity in her heart as she continues to advance her career?

Speaker C: Ah, uh, Ms. Sandy Poudar, um, my college roommate, confidant, best friend and, uh, the one who often is the reason I am, uh, grounded and able to maintain this sense of generosity. Uh, because you will get text messages, like, checking in on you, just making sure you're taking care of yourself. Um, or like, don't forget you don't need to work all the time. Um, from, um, my incredible, incredible friend Sandy and our amazing group of college roommates that still maintain contact on a weekly basis. And, um, what's the saying? Find yourself a girl squad and you will never, never feel alone. They, uh, are my girl squad.

Speaker A: And you still get together, right? Like they're. You make together.

Speaker C: So met together annually. Uh, we are T minus two months from the next reunion. Um, and we are on a mission to get all seven of us together at the same time. But we're schedules are rotating through, but, um, I adore, adore the diversity of the paths we've all taken. Sandy, uh, is an incredible news director and, uh, she went down that path. Uh, we have professors, college counselors, ah, physicians, all. You name it, we have it. Um, how do I say? Grounded. I have the blessing of an incredible family who allows me to be just me inside the house of my four walls. And I don't have an elevated sense of self because of that. Um, I am grounded by my, both Kurush and Kian, my boys, on a regular basis. As to why I'm not all that, uh, which is super fun. Um, my husband and I have a relatively, uh, simple rule of we don't bring work to the house. Um, and so inside the house, it's all about the family, friends, real world stuff. Um, if there are Stressors going on outside. We try to park it as much as possible at the door. Um, but I am someone who Friday nights are for us, Saturday night or Friday nights are at my sister in law's house. Saturday nights are for us and Sunday nights are with my family and my parents. So, uh, find yourself an environment where everything but work drama is the center of attention. And you will maintain your generosity, you will maintain your groundedness, you will maintain your depth of desire to give and not to take. Um, but I am grateful for every member of, um, my tribe, whether it's my girlfriends or the incredible human beings I get to work with. And, uh, four at Cushman Wakefield, whether it's my family, but it takes a village to maintain this sense of groundedness and, um, understanding and people to really check you once in a while. Make sure you remember your why and make sure you remember that it is all, for all intents and purposes, it is a title for a moment. Um, it is not who you are. And so, um, that's been superbly helpful for me. And Sandy's played an incredible role of keeping me grounded at all times. And so for her, I'm grateful.

Speaker A: I love that she uses your full name. Right?

Speaker J: He does.

Speaker C: Interestingly enough, it didn't pivot. It pivoted from Salamay to Sal, probably like seven years into my work environment. Um, we have actually talked about it a lot. It's like, when did that happen? And you just kind of forget when that happened.

Speaker F: But.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, thank you, Sandy. And, uh, I know you could have told us some really great stories, but that's for different reasons.

Speaker C: I'm also grateful for her for not telling you those stories.

Speaker A: I know you've got a hundred things coming at you and, uh, I want to respect your time. We're going to pivot now. We're going to spend some time offline and we're going to work on your article, seattle.com, that'll be out in eight days. So, but just thank you so much for just being who you are, being transparent here and just helping us think about how to reshape the room. Right, how to set our people up to thrive. And you know, how you go about doing that. And so sales. Just thanks so much for your friendship and all that you do for people, your community, your company, all of us. And, uh, I just can't tell you how much I appreciate you.

Speaker C: Um, right back at you, friend. Um, the number of rooms that you are in or you're not in, where, uh, the impact that you're making on the community is discussed, and your authenticity and your ability to connect people, um, is a topic of discussion is often. And so I'm grateful to you.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, there you have everybody. We're going to put a big mic drop right there. Sal just taught us what's the hero in the story. Uh, the technology is important, but the. That's not the hero. And so thank you for that. Enjoy. Go back, play this again. There's so many golden nuggets there. And we will see you all next time.