#155: The Art of AI Content Creation with Cybersecurity Expert David Mundy

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, I'm Carrie Garden. Welcome to the last episode of 2023 of Tea Time with tech marketing leaders. I'm so grateful you all are here. What a ride. I feel like January was just yesterday, but also like a century ago. It's, it's been a year. It's been a year. And I don't know about you all. Dave and I were just talking about this, but we are, we are ready for the break and it's going to be glorious. But before we send you on a break, you, we want to get your wheels turning because why not, you know, in the quiet, the no meetings, you get to like, absorb and, and understand, uh, a bit better and contemplate what 2024 could hold for you. And let me tell you, if AI has not been a topic of conversation for you in 2023, you might want to lean into this one and figure out what it means for you for 2024. It's not going anywhere, y'. All. It's not going anywhere. It's not going away. It's going to be good. This week I have with me ending the year on a high is David Mundy. David, welcome back to the show.

Speaker B: Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker A: I'm so excited to have you. You were here with me 2, 2 ish years ago. Um, you shared your story then give us a quick recap of where you were when we in 2021, when we last met to where you are now.

Speaker B: Oh man. Let's see. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna run it through my head real fast. So I was divvy cloud from. So I've been in cyber security startup arena for about eight, nine years. So I was Divi Cloud for about three years. In 2017-2020 we were acquired by Rapid7. I was at Rapid7 from about April 2020 to April 2021. And I think when you and I chatted, I had just joined Accurate, which was a, um, uh, infrastructure is code secure, essentially cloud, uh, security for developers and builders. Um, and, and I joined that startup. We got acquired in a year by Tenable and then I stayed at Tenable for almost a year and jumped into um, a startup that I stayed in for 10, 11 months. Wasn't the best of fits. And then I jumped into where I am now for the last year at uh, Dacera, which is a small, small data security, uh, posture management startup. Uh, we just received our series A in April and we have about 30 employees and you know, competing in a very dense cyber security sector with a variety of competitors and we're probably among the smallest in terms of employee size at the moment. But, uh, that's, that's where I currently am.

Speaker A: I like how you said at the moment there, because it could change, it will change. It'll be glorious. Uh, you definitely have an interesting story where it's this dichotomy of not staying at places very long but also being in the startup world, which is sort of like par for the course. Right. So, um, jumping around a lot, but also a lot of acquisitions and sometimes not in the right fit because that's, you got to really jive with the founder to like make it happen. Um, and we're not all everybody's cup of tea. And that's okay too.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, yeah. And so it's, it's been this wild ride for you. But for where you are now, to Sarah, the work you've been doing, the reason why I reached back out to you was because the work you're doing is I'm on the edge of my seat before we got, um. And I'm going to keep you all on the edge of your seat. Yeah, that just happened. Um, before we unpack, what you got going on over there, talk about challenges you're currently facing. Like, what's the end of the year? It's Q4. Welcome to the show. Q4 is hard for anybody, but for you in particular, David. Like, what's hard for you right now?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a brilliant, brilliant question. I feel like we don't as marketing, you know, as we have a lot of marketing, uh, people that speak, I don't want to say they speak in blanket. A lot of people break it down. Right. It's part of our job to break down target markets. But we tend to take marketing holistically. But there is this like dichotomy of startups versus, you know, mid sized enterprise companies versus do you work for a marketing agency? Versus, you know, and there's a lot of different ways to go about it. So my challenges might be different than other people's, a lot of other people's challenges, um, that aren't familiar with the startup space and you know, we're just gluttons for punishment. Uh, you know, anybody started in a company or working in a startup world, but oh man, challenges all of them, like name them. So product market fit, um, a, ah, lot of competitors that just immediately jumped into the data security space.

Speaker A: Categorization.

Speaker B: Um, so you know, data security for instance, could be encryption masking, you know, specific Security on that level. Then you have kind uh, of the data governance issue, which is like the managing and cataloging of data and data lineage. We kind of fit right in the middle of discovering all the data and then, uh, creating, you know, compliance policies on top of it too. So long story short, categorizing and really pushing out why we are the best data security solution in a sea of different product focuses in data security. Um, you know, you can almost think like, you know, if you soft drinks are like the, you know, we have a new soft drink, but now we have to show why we're better than Pepsi Coke there, which might satisfy other people's needs or cravings. Um, we have employee counts. Right. I have three brilliant, brilliant people underneath me, um, that all cover different parts of the funnel. I have my, you know, brand, uh, my brand and project management, uh, and communications genius, Jackie, who's worked with me at, for the last ten years. Um, and every company graciously, um, decides to come with me as I bicker. Um, I have my events genius 20, uh, who handles kind of all the, uh, events and breaks a little bit more into the demand gen for me on the email side. And then I have my, uh, SDR leader, uh, who really encompasses the bottom of the funnel for me and bridges that. But I mean, that's three of us building out essentially a company. Right. We hired a sales leader in, um, was it probably in June? Um, so just we had to build up everything from the ground up, more or less, uh, from life. Yeah. So we started a seed round. We got series A in April. And we have literally just been building this piece by piece by piece. So we have, of course, market trust that we need to build and validation. We have leads we need to build and generate, turn them into meetings. Value propositions really get us from product market fit. And to go to market fit, taking all the signals back from our customers. And we need to produce content of various natures to, uh, prove out our position validates our permissions as to why we can help, you know, any company from, you know, Wells Fargo to, you know, a health tech company, why we can help them solve their data security and data governance needs. So you name a marketing problem, I would probably imagine we have it in some capacity. But thus is the beauty of working in the startup environment, right? You get to kind of tackle them. Ask me to scale a business from, you know, 50 million to a billion, and I'll tell you to hire someone else because that's definitely not my skill set.

Speaker A: Yeah, you, you are the Start. You are the marketing startup king over there, where it is sort of your go house, your go to. Of you got no one. You're gonna hire me, I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get you started. And on the droid trajectory, it seems to be your calling and your career, and it's not a career for everyone and. And quite a unique place to be in in terms of a skill set. So hats off to you for braving the world of startups, especially in the cybersecurity space. Especially in the dense, competitive cybersecurity space. I do have a question because you mentioned, you mentioned the world where there's a lot of new startups sort of coming on the scene and there's a lot of competition. And I know you, uh, to your point, like we're all in sort of the same bucket of challenges and one of them being competition and a very, uh, just because of the nature of everybody trying to figure out the cybersecurity world, it's tough out there. I have to. Real quick story because this sort of blew my mind. Been in the cybersecurity space now for a couple years. Been paying. Our team is well versed in what to look for in bad actors. But this is an email that I took pause on. Like, I felt like I'd seen them all and I saw this one come through and I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a scam, but wow. So they claimed that they were from Salesforce, that we owed them $12,000 and the email looked completely legit except for. For their email address that was very hard to spot unless you knew to look for it, which thankfully I did. But it was just like this moment of this is happening. Like it is getting scary out there of how good this is getting.

Speaker B: Some good old fishing spear phishing tactics. Um, yeah, I remember when, um. And so, I mean, you have to. And that is an important thing to bring up, right? I mean, a little bit outside of the scope of the problems we solve directly. But, um, I have worked, when I worked at, uh, Seraphic before this phishing was one of the. Solving the phishing problem or mitigating the phishing problem. Uh, internally we were. Browser security was, uh, one of the. Was one of our sticking, uh, points there from a value perspective. But, um, when I was at Tenable, and mind you, I've been in cybersecurity for years at this point we had gone to AWS reinvent, right, the big aws, uh, Vegas. And, um, I had just been acquired by them I had met Amit Yorin, who's the CEO there, uh, once or twice. And, um, I got a text from him my first day in Vegas. And it was a text from Amit, and it said, or, you know, Amit. And it said, I need you to buy me gift cards. Mind you. This is 2000. What? Uh, this is 20, 21, right? 2000, right. Right when it was like the first. Right when everything started opening back up. And I was like, oh, man, I'm moving fast, right? He knows I'm in aws, they know I'm in Vegas. On the text message, hey, you're in Vegas. I'm going to be at this event. Um, can you stop by and get some gift cards and, you know, send it to me here? And I was like, yeah, I'm like, what do you need? How much? And I was like, oh, God, I'm getting fished right now. And I sent it to our ciso, uh, at, uh, Tenable. And then I was like. But I responded. And in that quick brief, like, moving fast, I still responded to the person, right? And then obviously you reported it, blocked the number and did all that stuff, uh, afterwards, they take care of it. But, I mean, you think about it, right? Me being in the cyber, I still fell for it. For a brief instance, imagine, you know, your older generations of people that get those emails, like, hey, you owe, you know, your Verizon customer, you owe us, you know, 500, send it now, we're going to terminate your service, right? And then you have the subject matter of our conversation, maybe in a different scope, but you give, you know, you look at AI and we're going to be talking about it from the benefits of what it can on a business side. But if you think about bad actors and the way that they're going to be using AI moving forward. Like, take the hyper personalization of, uh, any kind of phishing email or text, uh, and then the localization, and then being able to scrounge around your information from social media everywhere instantaneously, and then send that directly to you who might be in the know and be, you know, your radar is, uh, up. But think about all the people who aren't, right? And think about the older people, generations who aren't using, or the younger generations who might not be in the know of how to do this. You're going to see a lot, a lot, a lot of people following.

Speaker A: I got really lucky because the person who received the email is my executive assistant, and she usually pays these kinds of bills for me. But because of the amount that they were asking for. She was like, yep, I just wanted to double check this with you. And I was like, I'm really glad you double checked this with me because this is.

Speaker B: Yeah, we get them. I would say probably on average, M, because we have slack channels now internally that are like dedicated to these funny ones. Um, and obviously send them to the right people in our company, even here at dicera. But I would say on average all of us in the company, there's about 30 of us in the company, give or take. M probably about four to five times a month via text or via, via email.

Speaker A: It feels low.

Speaker B: Yeah. Actually we're small. I mean, can you imagine the bigger companies?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's true, it's wild. But my point is, my original question that I sort of didn't get to because I was too busy just commiserating around how AI is going to both help us and not help us. Um, but going back to what I wanted to ask, which was in terms of your challenge and being in this really dense environment of all these cybersecurity companies popping up because we're all facing the same threats and trying to figure out how to mitigate them, is how are you? And I think this is going to lead nicely into our conversation. So I might be setting this up here, but how are you thinking about differentiating Dicera first from like, just to your point, the product market fit, like, is it just focusing on the clear feature differentiators? Like, what's it for you?

Speaker B: A good question and a tough question. Right.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: I would say there's, there's a variety of nuances to the answer of how do you prop yourself, how do you rise above the attention economy. Right. And how do you rise up in the economy while rising up against your competitors? Right. So just to give a little bit of context, I would say probably less than 5% of the market has any kind of data security. So data security, posture management, if you like Gartner, it's one of their brilliant archetypes. I like Gartner, if anyone's. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't want to come up. Um, but archetypes, right? And they usually set market standards and people build into those market standards because they generally become again, the standard of the, the market. Right. So data security, posture management, market share is probably less than 5%. We probably have, uh, I would say 13, 14 direct competitors, um, and some whales in there that uh, have made acquisitions or are building their own functionality. Just like, uh, what we do specifically we were, we're very new too, right? I mean coins. The, the category was coined mid last year. Um, and we've been building up, I would say the ARR of the entire. For exactly what we do. Annual recurring revenue for exactly what we do for all the entire competitive space is probably less than like 30, 30 million, um, for all companies. Um, 30, 40 million. Um, so it's very new. So when we look at competitors, just to answer your question, and how do we differentiate ourselves one, our biggest competitor is companies not prioritizing the need yet. Um, we're very much attract, uh, we're very much attached to companies using data as a business driver. So obviously this is, this will hit AI from a different scope. Now that, that typically has meant, um, aggregating their data to be able to use it. You know, your think your Netflix, your Nikes, your, you know, any bank of America's, any of those companies and use, being able to use that data, um, and give access to, for everybody to have access to those crown jewels, that aggregate of data so they can, you know, whatever, build specific applications, better understand their customers, uh, create a better customer experience, create a better um, digital experience, whatever, but be able to aggregate that data, overlay analytics on top of it, and truly understand and use that data as a business driver. Well, over the last year and moving into 2024, what we're going to see is using that as a business driver is also going to include them using that as, as AI building their own internal and external AI applications. But they're still going to have to aggregate their data. But back to answering your question, you know, try not to be as verbose as I typically am, but uh, trying to answer your question, our biggest competitor is not being prioritized yet in the market. I, that's changing rapidly now, uh, fortunately.

Speaker A: So getting out front.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And then, yeah, I mean you have kind of like dsp, uh, you have analytic analyst firms that tend to shape the structure of the market. Right. So even though we have features that extend, extend beyond what they've categorized as dspm. DSPM is really your discovery of data, your classification of data, your overlaying priority compliance through, uh, some kind of policy engine on top of the data and then access management. Right. Being who can access what data and when. Right. And that's essentially what DSPM is more or less. Well, our features extend beyond that. A lot of our competitors extend beyond that too. So when we think about it, we go to market with the value we can bring. Mind you, if there's only 4 or 5% market share. There's a big wide open ICP out there. And though we are horizontal across all verticals, we have our specific uh, uh, niches. Right. Um, but it's a combination, right? It's a combination of features and functionality. M. It's a combination of helping educating the market and helping the market catch, uh, catch up. And that's what we're directly competing with, you know, some of our competitors are, is.

Speaker A: So you're ahead of the game, educating

Speaker B: and teaching the market. And this will bleed into kind of the AI conversation. Educating the market as fast as possible, convincing them and building trust in the market to understand what we do and how we're solving the problem and why that's better than any other solution they have available right now. And even though we all, it's. You can use the word commoditize, the discovery classification, the DSPM function is commoditized within the competitors that do dspm. But we all do things better and differently in different aspects.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like data usage and query analysis and how people are fundamentally using the data. That's where we excel. Um, some companies have their access and their data access management and how deep they can go all the way into third party access and being able to map where that data's coming from and how they're using, like that's awesome. Like they can do that. We can't do that as well. Right. So, so things like that. But another portion of that which I think people overlook is again time to market. Right. How fast can we go and convince the market that our messages, so our marketing becomes part of our differentiator and then our general support. Right. The people. Right. Um, we've beat out uh, competitors in deals when our product probably wasn't as good specifically for what they need. But because we went on, we went to their campus, uh, we met with them multiple times face to face. This is a big, pretty big company. Um, and met with them face to face and our CTO co founder and our solutions engineers and our customer support were with them answering questions day or night, always. And just taking that uh, white, um, glove support level.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so differentiators and value come I think in a package of sort.

Speaker A: I love that because I feel like while SaaS is all well and good, having that customer support and knowing there's a person or people behind it makes such a world of difference. I actually switched platforms um, for this very reason. Like I was working with, uh, I'm going to just name names because that's just where I'm Just gonna need, it's just easier. So I was, I was on Gusto for payroll for a long time and they didn't do HR services, they didn't do benefits or any of that. And so I switched to Zenefits because Zenefits was able to be, they built their ah, HR piece first and then added payroll versus the other way around. And so I jumped ship to Zenefits and said, oh, if I can have it all in one place, that sounds great. But their customer service was so painful. And so when Gusto added the HR piece, I was like, whoa, we're back. We're back to, we're back to that. Because even though I may have paid a little and definitely transforming, you know, going from one platform to another is so hard when you have to migrate all of your information over it. It matters that when I have a problem, I can get a hold of a person and they can tell me what to do about it or take, even better, take care of it for me. So the fact that you had people showing up on campuses and like showing them the way of how, especially in cyber security where it's such a trusting environment that you have to create, like, wow, that, yes, that goes such a long, such a long way and there's benefit to there.

Speaker B: I feel like I have to name names too. I mean, because I legitimately won't even hire a vendor, uh, or any, you know, third party unless. And I treat them again. We have a small team. So when I hire, it's usually an extension of my team and I want them to work with me like they are part of my team. If they can't do that, understandable. But I'm usually, you know, don't have the budget or the money to go out and be hiring, you know, McKinsey to give me a market. But you know what I mean? So like, I'll give you an example. Like there's a company called ranked AI, um, and for my SEO needs, right? And it's, it's like 99amonth for how I need it right now. They are perfect value for somebody who's building, right? Like I wouldn't suggest, you know, you know, tenable to go bring a ranked AI in, right. Or mid sized companies or anything like that. But for a startup community. Yeah, look, they'll, they'll help me write and formulate some of the content in the blog posts. They focus on the keywords, make sure that everything we're writing is keyword appropriate. They help me rate our keywords, they give me all the analytics tools. So I know to know where we rank, how we rank against certain competitors, how we rank on keywords and a beautiful platform. They email me constantly, uh, and keep me updated with Google out latest algorithm or Bings or whatever else I'm curious about. And they always answer my questions and they're always on top of it. And it's very responsive and I'm like, it's, it's insane beat that I know

Speaker A: can't beat the responsiveness, especially in the world of so much being automated. It's just, I feel like the world's heading back in that direction. It's, we're going to get into this, this is going to be good. Okay, so let's, let's, let's dive in. So I started in 2022. ChatGPT came out and I got in contact with you specifically, David, because the content you were producing, I was floored just between the visuals and the production of it. I was like, I know you're, I know you, you join startups, you run them accordingly. You're always a small team. How on earth are you producing this level of content? And so I asked you to be on the show, so I'm grateful that you're here back with us. Let's talk about how AI made a first impression on you though. Where did it all begin?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I've been, so I've been using generative AI, specifically chat GPT4 now, which is still my favorite, but I've used Claude and a few others more recently. But I've been using it since about December of last year. Um, and I, I mean I immediately researched and looked into as much as I could about how to use it and functionality and, and also thought it was a bit gimmicky at first, uh, which I think it's still, you know, in our field there's still a sector of people, um, particularly in product marketing that uh, think it's a bit gimmicky. Right. Or not as useful uh, as a tool as now I think it is. I started using it and um, started training it and remember ChatGPT3 was a bit more complex as far as training goes because the memory time was minimal. Right. So like I would, you know, share uh, like Dara's value proposition right. When I work for what it was at the time. And uh, I would say, you know, we're trying to, at the time we were focused on more data governance and data security. So I started like maneuvering and querying and prompting like how can I change this message to focus more on security folks from our value and change it here. And then, you know, you would get like three or four prompts in queries, in trying to, you know, manipulate and create the right data, uh, feedback, and it would already forget what the initial prompt was. So it became frustrating, right? But it also became a challenge and it became a pretty good challenge. Um, and then I would say probably around March, April is when, you know, I think 3.5 came out. I think 4 might have come out at that time too, 3.5 or 4. But that's when, um, my level of being able to. And I'm no better than anybody else, but my level of querying and prompting took a different, uh, turn and I began to formulate a plan and understand how I was going to use it, right? And a combination of tools and then people to get it done. And I understood the differences of what it was, right? Whereas I started off with, you know, holy, sorry for the language, holy. You know, I have this tool where I can just say, write me a white paper on um, the benefits of DSPM as opposed to data loss prevention. And I got nothing, right. It was terrible. It was just a horrible, like it gave me nothing, right? Nothing I could use. It was very abstract and broad and you know, and I was like, all right, so that's how I started off. It was just nothing useful. And I understood why people were bad mouthing. ChatGPT is like a gimmicky tool. But then I started digging in and I started saying, okay, well, you know, uh, first of all, fundamentally you have to understand your products, right? You have to understand your customer, you have to understand your market, you have to understand your product, you have to understand your value and you have to understand, let's say the topic of, and we'll focus just for content on this, of the topic of the content that you want to produce, right? You have to have that understanding. Again, you're never going to be able to go to ChatGPT or any of, at least anytime in the near future and say, create me this in a way that is engaging and will actually do anything for your bottom line relative to any kind of ROI content brings, uh, your company, right? Or, or your position. So I started querying outlines at first with. And oh, at first I started training it with specific data. So I started bringing in, uh, I first started, I first started using it with our PR agency actually. And that's how I, how I wanted to use it. I wanted to get in, out ahead of uh, in the media so we would get these journalist requests or editor requests from, you know, your dark readings, your se medias, et cetera, etc, and then I trained my chat GBT to be my boss, Ani Chad, hurry. And based on content that he's written, based on certain viewpoints he has and topics that he focuses on and opinions that he has. And I started training it on that. I trained it on to Sarah's value proposition, who Dasera is, what's Sarah's, what's this era's like in the market, what the market currently thinks, what we're doing. And then I would answer these questions and if you go on our site and you look at our in the news, you can see everything from like HuffPost to Bloomberg to Kipping Kiplinger to dark reading and all that. And I would overlay and answer these questions as if I was Ani Chadhari. And then I would go through the questions and overlay that with Grammarly so I would copy and paste the answers into a document overlay.

Speaker A: Hold on, hold on, hold on. You are one, giving our game away and two, going so fast. I want people to truly understand the magic of what it is that you've done. Because you and I had multiple conversations before I even started testing this. And it's actually working. And I'm going to get into that. But let's back up for a second because one of the things you talked about in the very beginning was that it wasn't working.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And most people at that point when it's not working would just throw their hands up in the middle air and be like, screw this, I'm not going to keep going. It's not doing what I needed to do and I got better things to do. So what was it? Seems like there was this sort of like nag for you, this like thing at the back of your head that was like, don't give up on this just yet. What made you go deeper? What was that? What, what was that question you're sort of asking yourself of like, this should do the thing I want it to do and I'm convinced it can do it,

Speaker B: you know? Yeah. Um, because you look at what people currently do and this is kind of like a funny argument against the naysayers even to this today. Um, but you look at what people do to research when they're writing any kind of. Let's focus on like a white paper for right now, when they're writing a white paper and let's say it's a thought leadership piece where you're Going to need some sort of, uh, cited research, right? In, in, in, in the, in the white paper, the report you're building, um, and you know, to eventually build up the thought leadership in your company. And I thought, all right, so what do we normally do in those circumstances, right? Normally I spend six to seven weeks if it's me, or maybe I hire it out and spend, you know, 20, 30, $40,000 depending on the length and, and what the report's about.

Speaker A: Do, uh, you have money or do you have time?

Speaker B: Exactly right. And that's, you're always weighing those two things, right? And that fast forward to the end chat GPT solves both of those problems, right? But back to where we're at now, I, how, I mean I would spend what, probably four to six weeks in the, doing the Reese, compiling the research, getting the topics, writing the outline, getting approval on the outline, right, from some of my subject matter experts internally, then going back or even externally, depending on what the subject matter was. Then going back, filling out, uh, the outline, going back and getting that feedback, right? And then actually writing the first draft, getting that verified and checked. And then it's this back and forth thing of constantly writing feedback, writing feedback, writing feedback, um, and then, you know, to produce the final result and then getting that checked off. And now you're how many weeks in and how much time where you, you know, how much other things could I have been doing at that time? How much roi? Because now you've got to build the plan as well. So you can't just write content, put it on your website and expect it to do anything. Now there has to be a plan.

Speaker A: If you build it, they will not come.

Speaker B: They will not come, especially not now. So you need the webinar, you need the blog post. Is it a theme for an event? You need, you know, you need the, the partners or any kind of market influencers sharing it as well. You need customers or other people, uh, quoted in it that are sharing it and you need to build the whole, the whole plan for it as well. Then once you get it finished, well, now you got to get it designed. So now you send it to a designer or you know, if you're fortunate enough to have one in house, great. Still going to take them a week plus. And I know the arguments can be on the time frame, so depending.

Speaker A: But it's also the argument of the carpet for the horse, the content or the design of the design. And then the content, like you write all this gorgeous content, but then you got to fit it into a way that people can actually digest it.

Speaker B: Ah, exactly. And then you need internal design charts and all that. And then you need obviously the COVID design and all that because, you know, I am someone who very much believes design is important, um, and can help tells the story, accentuates the story and sometimes letters, that is the story. So all of that takes, you know, on average, and we can debate that, but, uh, on average, let's say four to six weeks. Right.

Speaker A: In your experience?

Speaker B: In my experience. So I was like, all right, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm listening to all of, or uh, reading all this material on what Chat GPT is supposedly able to do. I'm obviously not getting it right. So that's why I dug in. I'm like, there's got to be a way. I'm. It's like 100. A user error at this point. Um, which is what I emailed you when I couldn't, when I didn't get on, uh, when I joined the time. Right. Definitely. Probably user error. Let me figure it out. And then I read an article on query and prompt analysis. Right. And, or, sorry, uh, query and prompting. And query analysis is what we do. Um, a query and prompting and how you need to train the data model, how AI works in general and then for using the LLM, how you need the, uh, you need to train it with your own data and, and then build off queries and prompts similar as you would do to any kind of like Boolean search functionality with Google, Bing, what have you. And instead of using Google Search to find, you know, sources to where I need to go and then digest the information, how can I use ChatGPT to pull that extreme amount of information to me immediately through, uh, through prompts. So what I did was where did you just.

Speaker A: So that we are all, we have this and maybe we need to go find it and that's fine, but do you remember where you read that article about.

Speaker B: No, I, I can't. I was actually trying to find it before this and I can't remember what that initial article was, but I will try to find it after, uh, this.

Speaker A: That'd be great. I'd love to drop it in the comments for people because I think this is the big misdemeanor is we think one it remind me and I know that there were like many versions ahead. Now I think it's like what, Chachi TV4 something four and a half. So it's definitely come a long way. When it was first launched, it only captured the Internet up to 2021, it was way out of date, and so no wonder why it wasn't working. Um, so there was this misdemeanor of that it was just a basic search engine. But what you discovered, and I think what's so important here, why I want to pause for a second, is that it is a search engine when you build the data for it to search.

Speaker B: Yes. But you got to think of it like, you know, the fundamental purpose of Internet, right? It's a backbone into all of these different, you know, let's say digital stores, right? Digital environments where that's more pockets of information. So you go on the. And use Google to rapidly navigate to those sources. So instead of having, you know, instead of having to. This is redundant, I know, but just to kind of speed up to where. What ChatGPT did in my thought process here. So instead of me Googling, um, you know, uh, I need, uh, Verizon's data breach report to show data breaches in, you know, healthcare, to help m. Whatever white paper I'm building. Well, now I have to Google Verizon's data breach report. I have to find the right report, I have to, to pull the report, I have to read the report, and then I have to take that information out, right? Well, now with ChatGPT, I could essentially prompt and pull that obviously not recent report, right? Because it only went up to like 20 January 2022 at the time. And then I pulled that information out and then now I would have that breach information immediately. So it actually wiped off. It wiped off. That's kind of what Google Bard does now. If you attach it to your, uh, if you attach it to your Google search, Bard will immediately pull the information out without you having to actually actual search. So it just becomes an engine, like a knowledge engine now. Not, there's no search really search involved. Um, but what I found immediately, almost immediately, once I realized it was user error, was I could. Even though the limitations of the knowledge it was sharing or uh, you know, scraping the Internet was from, um, you know, January 2022. All of my current information that I started training it on, I could interweave that information there, right? So I could understand my value proposition. Like it didn't know what data security posture management was because that was coined in like June 2022. But I could teach it what it was and it started understanding what it was, right? And DSPM became like, was data security protection management something like that, right. Uh, just like a word off. And then it started, it started the repeatability of Understanding that was posture management and what we do in the differences between that.

Speaker A: So let's, let's get a little obnoxious here because I, I think for so many people who've sort of ditched the AI train, which I was one of those people until I talked to you. I was like, this isn't working. I can't do this. Nope. And then I talked to you and I was like, oh, maybe. And I think the big thing for me in that moment was the fact that I could put data into it. So it wasn't just about extracting the data, but it was actually feeding it. Right. So here's an example. Um, maybe my coach is listening and I'm about to give the game away. And that's okay. I love you, Todd. So I work, I work with my coach now and I help him on his marketing efforts. And one of the things he asked me to do was to take his latest LinkedIn post, which was about the Uber CEO and that TV show super pumped, and write a newsletter about the leadership qualities in regards to what had happened with that CE CEO and the downfall. Right. The qualities he had until he didn't have them. I had never seen the show. And now I have to write a newsletter in relation to Todd's teachings around this. I was like, I don't, I don't know where to begin. So what I did was I, in true David Mundi fashion, I took all of my coaches LinkedIn posts for the last, I don't know, a few months and I copied and pasted them into chatgpt. I didn't know this was possible. I think this is really important for people. M. I didn't know that I could tell ChatGPT, Hey, I'm just going to give you a bunch of information. Don't do anything with it yet. It's going to be okay. And then I'm going to tell you what I need. Right. Uh, like that was so such a differentiator for me because with Google you just type in certain keywords to extract data. You can't feed it like I'm feeding chatgpt my coaches posts. And then I said, hey, do you know this movie Super Pumped that launched at whatever time? And ChatGPT said, yes, I'm aware and here's the synopsis of it. I said, great, here's what I need you to do. And I basically prompted it on writing this newsletter in Todd's voice. Mhm. And how it helped me write a draft. Now I had to go back over it, but the Fact that I got a seven point list of great leadership in Todd's teachings against this TV show was mind boggling. And it's because I took what, a lot of what you're saying and executed on it. So. So, uh, yes, ChatGPT learns through trial and error that 100 agree. That's why people were so disappointed. This is, this is exactly what we're talking about. Like you can't take it at face value. You have to train it. And you said that multiple times, David, about training it. And I just wanted to give a clear example to IX's point on, uh, what it means to train this thing. But it's. You can do it quickly. It didn't take me a lot of time to drop a bunch of posts in there and say this is what Todd sounds like and this is what he does.

Speaker B: So once you figure. Oh, sorry, I didn't interrupt. So once you figured that out, right, and I'm gonna, I'll play the, I'll ask you a question. So once you figured that part out right, it's like, okay, now I'm starting to understand the capabilities of what it can, can't do. Right. Uh, and we're still, I imagine we're still in like 3 or if we got enough to chat GPT4. That just gives you.

Speaker A: I'm still working in free.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, there you go. So the next part of that, what was the next challenge that you saw? Right. And, and, and maybe it's rhetorical and I can answer or maybe you want to answer, but what was. So once you figured out the capabilities, what was the next challenge for you?

Speaker A: Well, I couldn't take the answer at face value because it wasn't, it wasn't totally right. One, it was talking in third person and it was a newsletter and I needed to talk in first person. And initially I started to rewrite it. I copied and pasted the response, I put it in Google Docs and I started to rewrite it. And I was like, I wonder. And I went back to chat GBT and I said, rewrite this in first person. It. This is a newsletter and give me a clear. Give me a summary and a. Give me, um, I forget exactly what I said, but I wanted a summary and I wanted it to end better. So I was like, help me intro this and outro this better. And it, it did. Um, so that was sort of my first hurdle of like not trying to immediately go and fix it myself, but actually ask ChatGPT to get, do what I wanted it to do.

Speaker B: And you started to realize that prompting and querying became the number one function that you needed to learn in order to get receive the best, let's say product from chat GPT. Now there's a tool that I did, I was like, so how do I get better at prompting a query? And I think, you know, intuitively, we all think we can do that, especially at levels of our careers where we're at. Right? So how hard is it to ask a question? Right? How hard is it? And then, well, fundamentally hard because you have to ask the right questions repeatedly in a way that like, you're speaking to, you know, somebody that works for you or works above you, whatever, whoever you're trying to pull information out, you have to ask this model. And it goes so against the grain of how we act, any kind of machine or software that we have to just attune, uh, our brain to like, all right, I can actually treat this thing like an employee, right? And I can ask it or subject matter expert. And I need to prompt it in very specific ways repeatedly and prompt it in a way that it gets whatever story I'm trying to tell out in the narrative in the way that I need to tell it. Right?

Speaker A: So I found, yeah, and I found that if you did it in chunks, like, I wasn't trying to do that all in one go, right? So the first thing I said was, was turn this into first person. And I said I need an outro to introduce the topic and I need a quote by the. I forget the character's name or the, the Uber, um, CEO's name. But I said I need a quote by Travis, uh, to start this thing off. And I need. So I started to prompt it, but I didn't try and do it all. I think that was one mistake I, I started making early on is I tried to like, get it all out in the first, first question in multiple questions versus, like iterating on it.

Speaker B: Yep. Yeah, I agree. And so like when I write anything now, and I kind of want to go back to a couple things, but when I, I jumping ahead, but when I write anything now, it's usually outlines and I have it build outline based on the data and then to your point, I query it. And if not like necessarily the, the, you know, how I'm framing it, but really the content to start with, and then I break that down into outline chunks of whatever, whether it's a blog post, whether it's a slide deck, whether it's a data sheet, whether it's a white paper, you know, whatever. What have you. I break it out into an initially an outline and then I start affecting changes in the outline itself to get it to where I think the outline is going to tell the right story. And then I start filling out the pieces with our data using pulling in ChatGPT with research. And then I start and then build transitions in between section one and section two and then start building that out that way and then just to gather another piece of the puzzle. What I recommend for everybody is I use Grammarly. I'm a Grammarly nerd one, uh, because my editing are terrible. So I will then take that document, I'll put it into. We use Google, right? So Google Docs. And then with Grammarly, right, you've set your goals, right? Is what's your domain, right? Is it you creating business or academic general? Is it emails and casual? Is it creative? What's the intent? Uh, what audience are you going for? What's the formality? And you've set all that up in Grammarly and then now you take the tone of your overall paper and you affect change through Grammarly. Not only are you making it grammatically correct, but the way that you're speaking and the way that the paragraphs and the sentences are aligned, right? And avoiding any kind, avoid any kind of passive, um, content, of course. But you can also talk to the audience directly how you want to talk to the audience. And that shifts. That keeps the subjects matter in there, right? It keeps the subject in there and the relative content, but it shifts the way that you explain it, right? Based upon how you want to speak into what audience you're speaking, as well as obviously editing all the grammar as well. And so, and then oops are good.

Speaker A: I do want to say one thing about Grammarly because I am a big, I'm a big fan. I was convinced this one start using it earlier this year and I actually thought that people would think my LinkedIn was taken over by somebody because it was such drastic change in the way that it was actually like less errors and grammatically correct that this couldn't possibly be. Carrie, um, I do want to say though, it's not always right because your voice or what you bring to the table does matter. And so if you're reading it out loud and it doesn't feel right, there's something to that. And so two things about that. One is I love what you're saying about ChatGPT. Grammatically it's not always correct. So pumping it into a Grammarly great idea and bringing that human element back into it is by using your own voice to reread it is a wonderful way to make sure that you're not losing that, that human element between both of those things. I want to break down that outline piece because I think so many of us are jumping the gun and skipping right to the end of using ChatGPT versus thinking about what it is we're even writing about. So walk me through. Do you just do a normal outline like as if you were to write a piece of content, or do you approach it differently because you know you're going to use AI to help you write it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like just again, to fast forward this. I probably wouldn't even in specific roles, I, uh, probably wouldn't even hire anybody that doesn't have a familiarity with, uh, with any kind of generative AI and is not using that at this point, especially in the startup world. So everything that I write and produce is generally going to have uh, some kind of LLM component or generative AI component behind it. And I can give a couple examples, uh, of, of why from an outline perspective it's be and like the human element. Like so that's, you know, if I can back up a step. It's like a joke at the Sarah, from the CEO all the way down to the sales team, like they tease me about Chat GPT all the time. And it's now come to have this like, you know, chat GPT almost has this like negative or silly connotation of, of like cheating in some way, not being authentic and being too easy at the same time. So it actually becomes paradoxical, right? And I've had to explain a multitude of times about how and why it works for us internally, externally. I've been in a multitude of debates, right, surprisingly with predominantly marketing peers, most of whom are in product marketing. And I feel, and people I've worked with or people that I'm connected to are friends with, um, but I feel like they're particularly sensitive with the evolution of generative AI. Right? But in the broad scheme of things, like, we have to look at it like what calculators did for math. Generative AI going to do for just about every other subject. Um, and that's just, you know, there's a great analogy that comes to mind when I think about this. It's um, you know, Paul Bunyan, right? That, that, that legendary American lumberjack, right? You got Paul, this, this giant of a man. He's got his ax and he's, he's just a master, uh, you know, at his craft and he's the go to guy when you want trees cut down, right? And unbeatable with skill and speed of cutting down trees. And then a new challenge, a guy brings a new challenge to him. He's got this machine and the machine has been built to cut down trees and it's faster and it's more efficient than any human. So what does Paul do? He competes against it, right? And we know the story, right? And he takes on this machine and this dramatic showdown of man versus tech. And Paul breaks records, right? It gives it his all. But the machine, you know, doesn't. Tireless and the machine wins. And that's power Metal. Meta. Powerful metaphor for what we're seeing in the marketing world today. Today, right? Traditional methods like relying solely on human creativity and manual processes are dramatically being challenged by AI technologies. Like your ChatGPT, like the ChatGPT that I use. And you know, I think Paul Bunyan was an allegory for industrial revolution, right? And the broader theme of, you know, the encroachment of industrialization on traditional ways of life. Um, but we're seeing that repeat again, right? So product marketers are. And people in general, not just product. I'm picking on product marketers right now. I have been one before. Um, but just like Paul, these marketing people have a choice now. They can view AI as a threat, a machine that might outperform them and thus work to market publicly against the use of these tools and LinkedIn and Twitter and where else have you, and downplay them, or they can see it as a valuable tool, which is what eventually, inevitably I did and you did as well, and something that can enhance our abilities. And I want to really hone in on that because we use the human element, the creativity and like you use it as an enhancement tool. Like again, you still have to understand your product, you still have to understand the market, you still have to be a marketing brain, right, and have the expertise. And then once you figure out the ability to prompt and how you can feed and train the data to give you the results you need so that, let's say, get you 70% of the way there, 60% of the way there's. Right, the outline and then building the outline incrementally, then, right, you can, you can, uh, and using as that enhancement tool, you can push the boundaries of, of what you can do in marketing. And honestly I would say our team is probably pushing out, um, and if you take like a team at a bigger company that's not using any generative AI, our team is probably pushing out the equivalent, if not more from a content perspective. I mean we have blog posts, we average two to three a week, white papers we average two to three a quarter. Website content, two pagers, data sheets, sales decks, emails, press releases, social media content, ah, trend jacking, responses to the media, responses to journalist inquiries, I mean all of that. And we do that consistently, um, consistently across the board. Right. And we have content specific goals and we take feedback and we have our subject matter experts look at it and we make sure we prompt our. We're not just using ChatGPT to create all of the content, right? The human, human element, all of that has either been prompted into it. We're also editing it ourselves and making sure it's our voice. We're making sure because everybody's complaining about plagiarism. I haven't seen one piece, I put it through Grammarly's plagiarism check. Not one piece has ever been. I mean they have like the 1% where like 5 generic words are considered plagiarism. But other than that it passes the test. We pass any of the AI checks as well because again, you're prompting piece by piece and you're creating from the outline, not just one holistic, uh, piece there. And that's generally the product we've been able to create. And again, we would not be where we are today as a company without being able to utilize, uh, this tool for some of the successes we've had.

Speaker A: I think that's. So it's such an important point you're making, David, that I want to make sure that if you take nothing away from the conversation, it's this. So a quick story. I was a photography major. I went to school at Drexel University for photography back in the early 2000s, before digital. So all these, all these photographs back here were taken on film, 4x5 pieces of film. And I was determined, determined to print them in a dark room on silver. And my professors were like, they gotta be big and they gotta be on this gorgeous paper that's not reflective. And I'm sorry, but it's got, you gotta scan them in digitally and print them. That way I could not have gotten these photographs the way that they are in a non digital world. Much to my dismay, believe me. And so, but I had to understand how photography works at its core in terms of light and F stops and speed. And I got the beautiful way to play with the billows, to get the right uh, depth of field and all of that fun jazz because I was fancy and went to school for it. Um, and then I could take it to digital in a way that no one else could because I had the fundamentals down right? And I think that's what we're trying to say here is, like, this is not out to replace anybody. This is how. This is a tool to help you do what you do faster and better than anybody else, because you understand the fundamentals. You're not trying to skip steps. You're trying to figure out how this thing can make you do what you do even so much better, because the sky is the limit now. You can take these photographs and blow them up and make them big and put them on paper that wasn't even possible before and make it feel totally different and build a whole new medium. Right? So I think that's so important. AI Is not here to replace us, especially when it's a craft that we've done for so long. It's here to help us do it that much better. And I got to tell you, like, it does take a finesse. Like, I didn't just produce this content for my coach and then hand it off to him and say, here you go. I just like you do, David. We had to do the due diligence to say, are we plagiarizing? Is this grammatically correct? Does this sound human and thoughtful and intentional and. But at least the data and the information is already there for us to then play with, so we don't have to do all of the research to begin with to get to see 70% to then make it to the 90. And that was just such, like, the aha ah moment for me, as well as the fact that I could bring in the data myself. I just. That just sort of boggled my mind. So when I wrote the content from my coach, it was in his voice. It sounds. It. It sounds like him. It's so crazy that it. I mean, it was a little over the top, so I had to tone it down a little bit. But, like, it's not anything I could write because I'm not him. And so, yeah, I. I just love everything you're saying around how we can really start to think about how this can work for us in a way to take our content and our deliverables next level. And I do want to touch on, before we close out here, something else you're using AI for and design. You mentioned design being so important to you, and it should shows. I want you all to go to tessera.com resources library resources-library right now and just visually look at the content that David and his three person team are producing right now, thanks to AI. And I gotta say, visual AI is a lot harder than written AI. But talk us through a little bit. The visual piece of how, like, okay, you have it written and you kick it over to a designer who also uses AI. How, how are those pieces coming together?

Speaker B: So I still use my artist, uh, friend Bo, who I worked with at Accurate and then Attendable. And then now he has his own company and he's an artist through and through. Right. Uh, brilliant, brilliant artist. But he uses AI right and loves it. And again, my arguments, and I'm happy to debate anybody ever, but my argument is always a time Deb Value. Right. And I'll get into that one second if we have time. But essentially, if you think about any of the content we create, we want relevant, we want design that's relevant, uh, to the content, that can enhance the story. So we will send the content over to Bo, our designer and because to your point, yes, I have tried and you'll see a couple blog posts there where we've. He's been out of town or he's been busy and we needed to get it out. So we've used AI, you know, Dolly or something to, to create. But man, prompting for imagery is so hard and you'll never get the same image twice. And it really wants to dive into the abstract and like, you're like, I want minimalist. And it's just, it's your, your. Yeah, the time to value like decreases when you're not, you don't have a design eye and you're trying to uh, build this thing out, let me tell you. Uh, so I don't think it's there yet. There's probably some tools I'm not familiar with that are there? I have not found them yet. So we send it to Bo. Bo will take the content. He, he will use the AI tools that he uses. Um, and to be Honest, I'm not 100% sure what he uses. I know he does use Dall e sometimes, but he has other tools that he likes that he uses on the AI side and then he'll pull that out, put it into any one of his tools, let's just say Photoshop for the sake of this conversation. And then he'll fix and he'll adjust and he'll kind of remediate the image from any. Take out any of the abstract because he knows what we like, obviously, and what we want to show. And, and then he'll create this image like a good piece to look at would be there's a, um, a piece that we, a white paper I wrote on with uh, my team on called Queen's Gambit, the chess move. But it's really about the um, big um, security teams and how they need to focus on data security rather than just kind of perimeter and infrastructure security. Right. And how data is, especially with AI and you know, data becoming a massive business driver is what we need to be focused on. But there's a massive chess analogy throughout the piece. So he took the content and he wrapped in kind of data like data themes and data security themes throughout the paper along with this massive chess analogy. And it's like digital chess component. And we've gotten so many compliments on this. You as well. And thank you for that. Got so many compliments on our design now. And here's the kicker. I've worked with Beau for a very long time, right? Years. It used to take him a few weeks to finalize like a white, a big white paper for us or something like that. Right. And get us that. Used to take him a few weeks. He had other priorities and there's other reasons. Right. But used to take him a few weeks turns it around in about an hour. Whole white paper, anything about an hour for us. Right. We need this fast right there. Now he might charge us for the expediting it but uh, a little bit extra. But he can turn it around an hour. It's insane. A white paper, like I said, four to six weeks. I can turn around a white paper on just about any subject. Some are a bit harder than others, some require more manual efforts. And I can't use ChatGPT as much outside of the outline. But average. I can turn out uh, like say a five to seven page white paper and completed in about a week, maybe a little bit less than if I, if I spend direct time on there with his designing in about an hour. Now you have full white papers in about a week. Right. That are telling, that are specifically based on content. They have our voice, they have our creativity. You can go and look for yourself. Right? Um, they have your analogies, but that goes back to the prompting and the way that people use it. Right. ChatGPT wasn't gonna, I'm not saying it's a good analogy of Queen's. Get chess and data security. So you can, we can argue that on a different point, but Chat GPT is not going to give me that analogy. Right? That's the creative human element to what you were talking about. That's the enhancing ability to and how people need to be focused on these AI tools as a tool to enhance. The same way HubSpot or Marketo enhanced our marketing automation abilities and created, you know, the ability to nurture and send mass emails and analyze it the same way Salesforce was able to, um, log all of our. Take our customers from an Excel spreadsheet. Right. And put them into. And there were CRMs before Salesforce. I know, but sales and be able to manage our leads, prospects, customers, and start pulling out that data and that information the same way those have evolved. Right. This is a tool that can enhance. And to your point. Yes. In no way replace matter of fact, help hire more, um, and especially people that have prompting ability.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, David, we could talk about this all day. And I do think we should meet up in the new year and talk about creating a course around this, because I think. I think this is where everything is going to head. You're ahead of the game, as is your company, clearly. Um, and I think this is a great way to educate your buyers on why they need you. Because it's almost that practice what you preach, right? So if your whole product is based on AI and then you're using AI through all the different, uh, portions of your company, from operations to marketing to sales, that just enhances like that you know what you're doing because you literally use AI in everything that you do, and then the data that comes with it and how to analyze it through AI. So way to practice what you preach. Way to give us an example of how this can be done so well. Um, and in less than a year, like, you've. You've really cracked onto something, and I think we all need to pay attention to it. So I'm so grateful for you to come, Come along and share it with us before we close out. Um, we talked in 2001, which feels like eons ago. What's. What's new for you in the last two years, especially after Covid, have you picked up any new hobbies? Are you traveling more outside of work? What's. What's a new, exciting thing that's been going on for you?

Speaker B: Trying to avoid dad bot, I think, is the number one thing, uh, right now? No, I found a, um, I just started to get. I got into being more active, uh, in shape. Um, so, like, here's. Here's the funny thing about this real quick. Right. I've always heard growing throughout my career has been, oh, make sure you spend time with your family. Like family is there forever. Your jobs are going to come and go, but spend time with your family. And it's always been like there's an interesting like you know, let's say dichotomy there because it's like yeah, but for us that are up in coming, you know, we don't have a lot of time especially in start because we're working 60, 70 hours and I feel like being able to spend time with your family is a luxury you get to have. Once you've quote unquote made it right, then you get the luxury of being able to do that. But for when we're, when our hands are in the dirt and we're in the field and we're growing throughout our careers, it's tough. So what have I been doing postco fortunately because I've been doing this for like 17, 18 years when I didn't have as many white hairs. Um, I have now in the privilege and the luxury of I have a three year old and a seven year old. So I mean and I'm fortunate to work from home in the startup world so I get to watch my kids grow and I get to spend all the time in the world with my kids and pick them up for school and tease them and embarrass the just daylights out of them with all their friends. Um, I get to play sports with them and you know, my daughter's in starting jiu Jitsu soon, my son's starting Muay Thai soon. She dances, they sing, they play basketball, they swim. I mean so I'm very fortunate situation and I understand that a lot of people can't and just luckily I built up through my career to get here but uh, I would say being more active myself and uh, being more in shape, basketball, um, working out, boxing myself. But being able to spend time with my children in a variety of ways has just been my mom, you know, my mom had to work and she worked nights and she, she did everything she could to uh, to get me and my brothers uh, a good life. But uh, you know, she just could not be there all the time even though she was there as much as she could be. So it's a blessing for me to be able to watch my kids uh, grow and have the luxury to do that. So you know, it's cool not to get cheesy or end on a cheesy note.

Speaker A: No, I'm so there with you. It is definitely like what remote has brought to us all of this ability to be with our children, uh, as they grow up it's the pinnacle like it's Those, it's that three to, you know, 10, 12 years, like that's what we get. They go off with their friends and they forget about us. And that's fine.

Speaker B: But can I make one more, one more really quick pitch to AI Especially because I know people are going to see this and I'm going to have friends that are going to laugh at me and they're going to debate me again. So I want to little arguments just real quick, real quick, real quick, I promise.

Speaker A: Let's do it. Let's do it.

Speaker B: So I said it's like imagine you have two, you know, you, you get, you have three chefs, three amazing chefs. And two of them, you give three ingredients, but you give that third great chef just an extra ingredient, right? That third great chef now has an extra ingredient, right? Well, now that chef has the ability to do something special with that one extra ingredient, right? And that analogy came from, uh, uh, Chamath Polyapatia, who's if you're not familiar, from those who aren't familiar, is VP8O L VP of Growth at Facebook and now he's a pretty prominent vc. I think he said that on his all in podcast. But that point, right, especially with that extra ingredient, it's like, look at your average marketing person, right? Like, let's focus on the really brilliant marketers, right? And then again, because some of my buddies that I debate with are in product marketing, let's say specifically in product marketing, and who work in early stage companies, which is the basis of my experience. They know their product in and out, they, they understand the market so well. They've helped develop the product market, fit the value drivers, the positioning, um, they've helped sales find the ideal, ideal customer profile and the target buyer. Now they're building their go to market strategy and they need to build and grow the fuel to power the demand gen engine. And in most cases, these engines feed a lot of marketing vehicles, right? So a variety of contents needed to fuel them. How long does it take that person, that product, product market and then what's the cost and what's the ROI on the content they provide versus the time it takes to deliver the content versus the cost of delay in the greater market for how long it takes them to do it the traditional way, then conceivably against a competitor who's hired a larger marketing team due to better fundraising. So when you look at like the value of AI tools, I often ask people, yes, there's a lot of work that needs to go into learning how to prompt and how to train it and to build, build it. But look at the actual KPIs that we use to analyze our own market performance and put that up against what AI can generate. And I don't see any way that you can't benefit from using one of these tools in a massive, massive way. I mean, essentially turn us, uh, all,

Speaker A: turn us all into David's going against Goliath or better.

Speaker B: Much better than hopefully. Um, but yes, yes, yes, it does,

Speaker A: it gives it, it gives those smaller teams a huge edge as you've proven with your three person team producing amazing content in a very short amount of time. You are the book, the, the case study for sure on how to do this. And I'm so grateful that you brought those ingredients to the table for us on how we can start to figure it out. We gotta, we gotta figure it out whether we want to or not. It's like how I had to figure out digital photography whether I wanted to or not, how to figure it out. And we're going to be up against that with AI and you just gave us a huge leg up. David, I'm so, so grateful. I'm grateful to our listeners. Thank you for joining us. If you liked this episode, please like subscribe and share. I appreciate you. We're heading into 2024. I am booked up for the first eight weeks. We have some great shows lined up for you. So please, like I said, like subscribe if you and share. This episode was brought to you by MKG Marketing, the digital marketing that helps cyber security and complex brands grow via SEO and digital ads. If you want to be a guest, come hang out with me. I'd love to have you. And, uh, let's bring in the new year. Thank you all so much. Thank you. David. Sa.