How Rock Bottom Turned Chris Pronger Into an NHL Legend

Speaker A: It's not always which one you're the best at. It's what you love the most, what you're passionate about. Because that's what's going to drive you in those dog days and those moments of adversity or strife or difficulty. It's the ability to want to push through that because you love playing the game.

Speaker B: Welcome back to Tank Talks. I'm your host, Matt Cohen, founder and managing partner of Ripple Ventures and this episode is a heavyweight. Today we're sitting down with one of the most dominant, intimidating and decorated defenseman in the NHL has ever seen. A, ah, first ballot hall of Famer, a Hart Trophy and Norris Trophy winner, a Stanley cup champion, two time Olympic gold medalist and a member of the Triple Gold Club. On this week's episode, we are pumped to welcome Chris Pronger to the Tank. Chris didn't just play the game of hockey, he imposed his will and physical dominance on it for nearly two decades. And anyone who had the pleasure of watching him play the game knows he was a force everywhere he went on the ice. In this conversation we dig into grit, leadership under extreme pressure, the real cost of competing at the highest level, identity after the peak, and the hard lessons of figuring out who he was when it was all suddenly taken away from him. If you're a former athlete, a founder, an operator or investor, building something that lasts and not sure how to bet on yourself, then this one's for you. Now let's jump into the tank for this week's episode with the one and only Chris Pronger. Now, before we jump into this episode, a quick word from our amazing sponsor, Moomoo Canada. Moomoo is a trading platform built for people who actually want to take their money seriously. They have the best real time data, level 2 quotes, full option chains and strategies, and a world class AI assistant running on their platform to assist you with all trading research and strategies anytime. As a previous institutional trader on Wall street, this is one of the most intuitive tools I have ever used. I mean this is the kind of tooling that that I used to use on a daily basis that would cost $20,000 every year. But now it's directly in your pocket. Available on the Moomoo Canada app. MooMoo already has 30 million users globally, so if you like keeping tabs on public markets and want to know how to strategically invest in the sectors we discuss on the show like Defense, AI or energy, Mumu is the easiest platform for you to get started. You can open an account using the link in the description or visit Moomoo ca. That's moo m. Moo ca to get started. Okay, now back to our conversation. Thanks for joining us in the tank today, Chris.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Chris fricking Pronger, hockey hall of famer, one of NHL's greatest hundred players, Norse trophy winner, last defenseman to win the heart as an MVP, a Stanley cup champion, a, ah, two time Olympic gold medalist and a player. For almost 20 years, you played with so much intensity level that most people will never match. I got to ask you though, looking back, are there any one or two moments in your early life before sports that clearly forge a specific kind of competitor and leader in you that you can remember?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, uh, think a couple and I actually talk about it in this book right here. The first I think is you got to bet on yourself. You're the only person that can, that has the reins, so to speak, of, of your life, of your career, uh, of your will and desire to do whatever it takes to be successful. And every opportunity I got to challenge myself to bet on myself, I took that opportunity. And I think that really over the course of those early years and then on into my career, I think was, I was a huge benefactor of those early days. And then from that spurned the drive and determination that it was going to take to overcome the adversity I faced early in my career and the struggles I had and really the hard moments of looking yourself in the mirror and say, how good do you want to be? You have talent, you have the ability, how good or great do you want to be? And now, okay, once you decide, I want to be the best player in the world or try to be the best player in the world, reverse engineer that and put the time and effort in and the work in to become that player.

Speaker B: But so many people, you know, think about taking the reins at an age when they understand what that means at a young age. As a child, you had older brothers that were good athletes, obviously. Did you have someone tell you, chris, it's time to take the reins, or did you actually figure it out yourself early on?

Speaker A: No, I think I always kind of beat to that drummer, I guess. But, you know, I also had my dad there to help advise and yeah, you know, these very calming influence, very quiet, very deliberate, you know. And I think having my brother two years older go through the same scenario ahead of me, I got to watch it play out, which I think was very beneficial and allowed me the opportunity to see the other side of that path.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And I wanted to carve my Own unique journey, my own path. No two are alike. You know, I think especially in youth sports, I think that's where people have to understand that whether people want to say times have changed or things are different or whatever, I would argue that you have a greater chance to be seen now versus before, regardless of where you play. Because the Internet, because it's so easy to see, uh, players on video, et cetera. And then if you really like something, go watch them.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: And find a place where you can see them to really get a gauge on their talent or skill or what, you know, their, their makeup, what drives them and things of that nature. So I think for me, I try to tell people I am a huge proponent of being a multi sport athlete. And what we learn, not only from a physical standpoint, from a mental standpoint, the challenges and learning new sports and hand eye coordination, proprioception and moving our bodies and all the rest of that I think is incredibly beneficial too. Once you do become very sports specific as you get to, you know, 15, 16 and you've gone through puberty and all these things and you really identify what sport you love the most. It's not always which one you're the best at. It's what you love the most, what you're passionate about. Because that's what's going to drive you in those dog days and those moments of, of adversity or strife or difficulty. It's the, the ability to want to push through that because you love playing the game.

Speaker B: Yeah. But speaking of kids playing hockey or any youth sports for that matter, you're often quite direct that the drive has to come from the kid first and par. Moving vicariously through their children is pretty counterproductive. You know, when you look at kids now being raised in hockey, you know, year round specialization. I just went to go jump on the ice before I started my season and there were kids there all day. I kind of felt bad for them. There's these super teams, there's constant movement around what concerns you the most and what still works today. That worked for you and why won't it work for today for some kids?

Speaker A: Well, I think a lot of parents feel like they're doing their kids a disservice because of what the information they're receiving that they're going to be left off teams because they didn't participate in XYZ summer program or training, et cetera. And I would argue that you're kind of stealing your child's childhood and the ability to, you know, it's one Thing if the kid is incredibly driven. And that is what I want to do versus I love to play sports. I want to be around my friends. I want to have fun and just enjoy the competition and enjoy the ability to learn and grow with my friends and all the rest of that. And when I was growing up, it was, you know, fall was. I played volleyball in high school. I played volleyball, then I played high school hockey, then I played badminton, then I played baseball.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Then I golf. Then, you know, like, I just did all these things. And it wasn't until I went away to play Junior that I took it more serious and came back in the summers and started training and doing all the rest of that, you know, which is that 15, 16 range.

Speaker B: That's exactly it.

Speaker A: If you're the best. If you're the best player, yes. But if you're the best player at 14, 15 does not mean you're going to be the best player at, uh, 18, 19, 20. You know, I think that's where I think people lose, I guess lose sight of what's most important. You know, we hear all the time this Pee Wee Quebec tournament, and, oh, my God, he was the best player. And he was 13. Well, I can tell you 99, there's always an outlier, but 99 out of a hundred times, whoever the best player was at that tournament or XYZ tournament, when they're 14, I'm pretty sure outside of those unique outliers, that player is not the best player at 18, 19, 20.

Speaker B: No, absolutely. I want to speak about some of the best players that you surrounded yourself with as a young player. You shared the room with Wayne Gretzky, albeit for one season, Brett Hall, Al McInnis and other veterans. Who did you look up to the most, and what specific habits or traits about the ways they carried themselves did you deliberately absorb that you will always remember?

Speaker A: You know, I think coming into the league in Hartford, my first couple years, they brought in Brad McCrimmon to kind of be my mentor. And he's my D partner, my roommate. I mean, he was like my shadow. He was my wooby, if you will. And, uh, you know, whether I was ready for it or not, physically, I felt like I was ready for the NHL and from a understanding of the game, but I think from a maturity standpoint, you know, mentally developed, looking back at all the mistakes I made, I, you know, you could argue that I certainly wasn't ready from that perspective. But having him in there to really walk me through and not be deterred by maybe my attitude of yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever. He kept kind of trying to train me and teach me and really kind of get through to me. And you spoke of those players and Gretzky, Hall, McInnes, Grant, Fear, these legends of the game. I then get traded to St. Louis and now I'm in the locker room with them. And I think having those first couple years with Brad McCrimmon just beating into me how to be a pro, what consistency, why it really matters. You know, all these little things, training, preparation, practice habits, all these little things allowed me to then fail forward, if you will, and get in the room with these guys and now really eyes wide open and be able to be a sponge and watch how Wayne Gretzky handles the notoriety and the scrutiny of fandom and media and you know, how he prepared for games and how he saw the game and being able to watch how Al McInnis prepared and trained and was allowed, you know, allowing himself to play 25, 30 minutes a night and how hard he competed in practice and in games and you know, really kind of soaking up all that information so that I could leave every year with something to really focus on in the summer. And after failing mightily the first two or three years of my career, then having that aha moment and really seeing the greats of the game and how dedicated they were and how they took advantage of every opportunity to get better and continue to improve and utilize that really throughout the course of my career to constantly be evolving and adapting to the ever changing style of play that the NHL had.

Speaker B: No, those early years in St. Louis, you were booed relentlessly at home as they traded, you know, their popular forward Brendan Shanahan to Hartford for our then 21 year old rising star defenseman. How did you compartmentalize that noise, protect your family and still show up as a leader? Because those early years on star athletes or superstar hopeful athletes is when a lot of them break down.

Speaker A: Yeah, not well. I did not handle it very well, I can tell you that. You know, I'd been booed in Hartford and you know, all the rest of that and got to St. Louis. Did not realize how big of a star Brendon Shanna had become. I was playing in the east, they were in the west and you know, we had the lockouts. So I had been to St. Louis once, I think it was game five of my first year. So it was really early into the season, you know, wasn't really paying attention, didn't know anything about St. Louis, didn't know anything about the Blues. You know, obviously Knew he was a high pick to the Devils, they picked him up, you know, all the rest of that. But it was an interesting start to my time in St. Louis, but I think I wouldn't have changed it for anything because that really was the key moment, a having those veterans that we talked about, those star players to learn from, but also to really have that aha moment and wake up call of nobody can fix this but you. I was in a deep, dark hole and was struggling mightily, but I put myself there because I wasn't prepared. I didn't train properly that summer. I didn't look at the opportunity that I had in the right light. And I think as I progressed through that season, got in better shape and utilized practice in the gym and whatnot for what it's there for, to prepare for the games, my play started to pick up and the moment we got Gretzky, I was trending upwards. But all eyes and focus turned to him, and rightfully so, which was, uh, a blessing, a total. And that allowed me to really continue my ascent and my improved play and again pay attention and be a sponge and watch and learn. And you know, I'd already, as I said, started to my game trend the right way, but that really kind of was the coming out party. And then I had a really good playoff and then the, the four pound muscle up top took over and realized, okay, I need to spend all summer training, preparing and making sure that I come back even better than I was this year. And then that was kind of the start of my ascent.

Speaker B: I want to talk about that 4 pound muscle, because that 99, 2000 season, you won the Hart Trophy and Norris Trophy with St. Louis, you know, for which our listeners who don't follow hockey much, you were the first defenseman to do so since Bobby Orr in 1972. So you also won the Norris Trophy as the league's best defenseman that same year. Meaning you were a force on both ends of the ice. You logged massive minutes, you know, essentially carried the blues that season. Looking back though, on that season, what was it that that 4 pound weight mentally gave you the ability to stay sharp, stay focused on the job throughout the season at the playoffs, that lined up perfectly at the right time for you.

Speaker A: It's funny, as I look back, what really, you know, really gave me the wherewithal for that season was the prior year. I hurt my ankle and I missed like 30 games. Uh, so coming and then we got sweat. We, we lost in the first round that year. So I was actually healthy because I missed all that time. I was healthy, I wasn't banged up so I could hit my training program right out of the gate right after the season. And I had probably four, four and a half months of training of just. I stayed in St. Louis, dedicated. I'm working out, working out, working out, and committed to that whole summer and off season of really getting everything healthy, prepared, uh, knowing the grind of the season, knowing the expectation, knowing how I wanted to play and knowing what I needed from my body. And I think in that season that you're Speaking of, Al McInnis got hurt. So a lot of, you know, his task kind of fell back on top of me as well. And, you know, it was one of those years. It was just a magical year where everything went well. I played with Craig Conroy, who was up for the Selkie that year, Scott Peller and Blair Atchnum, that was our checking line. We, we had a really good year and, you know, shut down the other team and scored a ton of goals and, you know, just everything kind of fell into place that year. And I stayed relatively healthy throughout the course of that year, which I hadn't in other years were just, you know, little bumps and bruises and things that can kind of grind on you over the course of a long season. I really didn't have anything that was affecting me that much, but unfortunately I had a great regular season and then, you know, we fell apart in the, uh, first round of the playoffs against San Jose. But uh, the regular season that you're speaking of, we had a magical run, really did not have much adversity throughout the course of the year, outside of Al getting hurt and a couple little blips. But, you know, everything kind of fell into place and I was incredibly healthy coming into the season and really strong and ready to take hold of my career.

Speaker B: I want to take a step back and give our listeners who are just everyday citizens, you know, generalists in terms of their lives, to understand how delayed gratification actually is process in a high performance athlete. You know, the seasons are so long, but playoffs are so hard. The summers are your times to kind of reset and sort of rebuild physically and mentally. You know, in 2007, you won the Stanley cup with Anaheim after coming agonizingly close the year before, losing in game seven of the finals with Edmondson. You were traded to Anaheim and then helped deliver the franchise's first Stanley Cup. You've won the Triple Gold Club, right? Stanley Cup, Olympic gold, World Championship. These moments, uh, are culminations of so many different things. But can you explain how the delayed gratification feeling happens once it's finally achieved, and how you look back on all the things that kind of pile up to it and obviously the emotions probably just get the best of you in those final moments?

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I guess the easiest way I can kind of answer this is the compounding of, you know, you talk about the summers. Through Al, I met my. My trainer, Charles Poliquin, and coming out of 97, 98, I was nominated for Norris Trophy. So 95, 96, I get to St. Louis. I'm getting booed. It's a disaster. We get Gretzky, you know, all these things. 96, 97, I have pretty good year. I'm starting to trend in the right direction. And then 97, 98, I, you know, have a great summer training come. I'm on the scene and get nominated for the Norris Trophy. And that summer I met Charles Poliquin, who was Al's trainer, and I totally. Even though I was nominated for the Norris Trophy and was in the conversation and all the rest of that as one of the top defensemen in the league, I scrapped my whole training protocol. How I ate, how I did everything, I redid everything. I took it down to the studs because I knew that how I was currently training was only going to get me to that spot. And I needed to start fueling my body better. I needed to train differently, I needed to work on my energy systems differently, all these things. I just needed to find that edge and get to that next level. And once I started training with him, I came back that next summer, or that through that next summer for. For fall training camp, I was incredibly strong, twice as strong as I was the previous summer.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: So compounding onto the next year, so, 98, 99, I get hurt, but I'm strong and stronger than I was. And then I compound another summer, as I told you, you know, four months of that, now I'm like, I'm just compounding so much faster with how I was training. And you could see and feel, more importantly feel, when I got a hold of somebody, how much stronger I was than I was the year before. And just you could get a gauge. I mean, I was picking guys up with my stick. That's how strong I was getting. And so I could see that and sense that and get that feeling. And it's just like, okay, you can see that every summer, you're just getting better and better, stronger and stronger, and your play is improving. It's not affecting your play. And so you're not getting too big, you're. I wasn't getting much heavier, but I was getting that much stronger. And so I was still agile and mobile and, and able to keep my, my speed the same while getting stronger and more powerful.

Speaker B: Who do you think you were the most equivalent to toe to toe when you were at your peak shape that could hold their own against you when you played?

Speaker A: I don't know. I took great pride in knowing that I could outlast my opponent. Wow. I was not. The way that I trained was just, you know, it's amazing how we evolve and we learn from our mistakes. And when I had that aha m moment, I'm like, that is never going to happen again. I am going to push myself to be the best conditioned athlete, to be the best outlast anybody on the ice. I, uh, am not going to, if I have a matchup, I'm not going to be the first one to change and just wait somebody out and just, you know, try to grind on people and just. It's battle of attrition at times, especially in the playoffs, and just try to lean on guys and grind on them so that at some point they're just going to wither and not be able to take it any longer. They're going to tire out.

Speaker B: You spoke about Peter Forsberg being one of the toughest players you've ever faced, though. Why was that?

Speaker A: I think to his detriment, you know, like, you look at the guys that he was always matched up with, you're dealing with me, he's dealing with Darren Hatcher. You know, you go through this list of guys, uh, all much bigger than him, and he played a very physical.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: You know, people think of him as this highly skilled player, which he was, but he was also very physical and loved to, you know, reverse hit and counter hit and take on guys in the corner, which probably in, in the long run shortened him, um, a couple years for sure. But it also made him the player that he is too, in the fact that that's how he loved to play.

Speaker B: There's so many clips of his hip checks. You know, you played so hard, physical, often intimidating kind of hockey for two decades, but you still maintained a lot of real friendships with a lot of the guys that you competed against and shared the rooms with. How did you hold that intensity night after night without kind of poisoning the relationships or the culture you had with other players?

Speaker A: Well, I can tell you this, I didn't have many friends when I played. I didn't Want to talk to anybody. They certainly didn't want to talk to me. You know, I was there to win. My job was to win hockey games. My job was to be prepared and to do whatever it took to win. You know, I was, uh, our representative on the NHLPA committee. And, uh, there were plenty of meetings where I sat alone by myself, listening to, whether it be Bob Goodenow, Ted Saskin, or whoever was the leader at the time, with a lot of people staring me down, giving me the stink eye. When those moments happen, that's when I know I'm doing my job. I don't want the opposition to be happy to see me or want to talk to me or be my friend.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I want them hating me. That means I'm doing my job.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And so as you lean on guys and take a pound of flesh here and there, there's going to be some bitter feelings.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: But I think that's the way that I knew I needed to play to be the most effective and to help my team win. And I wasn't out there getting phone numbers and being friends with players. I was there out there trying to lean on them and, and win hockey games.

Speaker B: And you held such a high standard.

Speaker A: Yeah. And as players grow and evolve and obviously step away from the game, guys certainly understand now. You know, I think a lot of people have this vision of me as being really mean and off the ice and whatever. And, uh, usually it's far from it, depending upon how they approach me on the golf course.

Speaker B: You're a friendly, friendly foe.

Speaker A: That's right. That's right.

Speaker B: Yeah. You had to held yourself to a pretty high standard, higher than probably anyone else when it came to demanding what your teammates also were doing as well. What's the practical difference between leading by example in your eyes, versus just talking about standards?

Speaker A: I think teammates, co workers, however we want, you know, approach it, I think they have to understand this is my standard. This is where I hold myself to this standard preparation work, what have you. I am doing it to this level. I am holding you to this standard. And you will see how I show up every single day and why I am holding you to this. I don't expect you to be here because I'm here, but I expect you to be here. And if you're down here off camera, I will get you to hear. And if you're not here, you're not going to enjoy it because you have to push one another, you have to challenge one another. And I certainly learned that over the course of My early days in not challenging myself enough and just being happy to be there, if you will, and just relying on talent and not trying to evolve and grow. And I think we need to be pushed, we need to be prodded sometimes. But you also need to see the other side of it. When you are pushed and you get to that level, see some success, you know, whether it's winning championships or getting new contracts, having a successful year, and you know, getting personal bests in, whether it be goals, assists, whatever, what metric we're tracking and seeing the evolution of your game and how you're evolving and getting better. And when you're able to see that tangibly, you don't have as big a problem with maybe me or someone who is leading in that manner. But they see you putting the work in. You're the first one in the gym, you're first one on the ice, you're working on your craft all the time and you're showing up. And I think if you're going to challenge people and talk to people about what it takes to be a championship team and what it's going to take for us to win a championship and win hockey games or whatever metric, we're looking at how you show up each and every day to be the best and showcase that to your teammates, co workers, what have you. When they see that every single day, how intentional you are and how purpose driven and you are, they start to show up in a more meaningful way because they see how much it matters to you and how much you care about getting them to that level too.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in high performance environments like a Stanley cup run, I feel like trust and culture are so important in the success of a team. Just look at the culture the Florida Panthers have had. You know, how close they are, living so close together versus a disaster like the Toronto Maple Leafs are culturally, you know, for the last few seasons. So I just, I gotta understand, like, when the culture starts to wobble a bit going through a season, are you rubbing guys out in the corner during practice to kind of give their head a shake, to say, hey, look, this team is rowing in one direction, you're going the other way. Get your ass in gear or else this is not going to last. Like, how do you deliver that message as a teammate, but also trying to get them to shake their head off?

Speaker A: You know, I think that was, uh, ever evolving for me as I grew as an individual, as a player, as a leader. We don't know what's going on in somebody's head. We don't know what's going on in people's lives at different moments. And I think to your point earlier about having trust and creating the right culture in a locker room, you have to really have an understand. And everybody's different. Everybody. You manage people differently. You know, this double standard that we hear. Oh, superstar gets treated this way. Uh, you're treating people the way that they're gonna. You're gonna get the most out of them. And so having an understanding of how this person over here on the my left, how they react is gonna be different than how this person over here on the right reacts. And so having that unique understanding and making sure you're leaning into them in a way that you can get to them and find out if there is anything going on. And then if there isn't, find, you know, we don't all play 82 perfect games. And so it's. How.

Speaker B: What.

Speaker A: How can I help you? How can we get back on track? Or if they're just being lazy, then to your point, yes, they are going to get rubbed out a little harder. They are going to get maybe a tomahawk chop going wide.

Speaker B: It's awesome.

Speaker A: They're going to understand the expectation of what it takes to be a Duck, be a flyer, be a blue, et cetera, be an oiler, be a whaler. What the expectation is here on this particular team in this particular year, because culture is ever evolving. Players are in different points of their career, Young, middle, old, players coming in and out, and culture kind of changes and evolves. But it's up to the people in the room to really set what culture they want and what's going to allow them to be successful.

Speaker B: I feel like that 2007 Duck Run with Scott Neidermyer as the captain, you as alternate captain, you had the perfect culture of a team that just drove it. And. And you can look at all the teams that have won cups over the years and just say, yep, culture was there, Teams were there. Adversity was faced together, and they had it locked in versus the team that comes in the hottest during the playoffs. But they're all just a bag of, like, dimes just not figuring out exactly how to jive. It's a whole different season, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, we had a really good core group. Scotty, very cerebral, you know, doesn't sail off, but when he does, people like, oh, better pay attention, Robbie. Need fun, easygoing guy. Myself, Todd Marant, Tusane, passionate, energetic. You know, you go around the room. Sean o', Donnell, very stoic. Uh, you go around the locker room to our veteran group. And at any moment, any one of those guys could chime in with something. And when you have that, you can't all be. You have to have pieces so that you're not getting stale and having the same person grind all the time. And the coach has to rely on the group to kind of self police at times so that you get total buy in from the group to like, what is our mission? What are we trying to do? What are we trying to accomplish? In that particular year, Scotty was the only one who had won a Stanley Cup. A few of us had been to finals, but it hadn't won. And so the mission was, we are winning. Like, Tamu's getting his cup. Robbie, Scotty's brother's getting a cup. You know, all the way down the line, Giggy was your goalie, Jiggy was a goalie. We want to get, you know, we want to get him a cup. And just you go around the room and everybody wanted to win. For everybody else, it wasn't like, oh, I want to win a cup. And so, you know, when you have that type of mission and you have that belief in one another and the buy in that we talked about, you can do great things regardless of talent. You know, if you get that buy in and that competitive drive and that willingness to do whatever it takes to be successful, it just so happens that we had a lot of talent, too.

Speaker B: What happens in setbacks? Because, I mean, you've had a few of them. Like that 90, 98, playoff game, two, Western Conference semifinals. You took that slap shot from Demetri Miranov to the chest. You blacked out, and you were back like a few days later playing. What was that mental process of kind of ripping the band aid off instead of dwelling on that, of what could have happened, what did not happen, to get back in the arena instead of watching from the sidelines.

Speaker A: Yeah, so for. For those that don't know what happened, I blocked a shot, got hit in the, uh, heart with a slap shot. What happened was, it's called commotio cordis. My heart stopped, you know, skipped a beat. And that's how much oxygen is flowing throughout your body. That one heartbeat. And passed out, collapsed on the ice, stopped breathing for about 25, 30 seconds. And then all of a sudden just kind of came to just start breathing and was staring up at the banners and all the stuff. And it was very surreal. And I just, I remember, you know, everything's cut open. I'm kind of looking around like, where am I, and uh, you know, I look over, I kind of glance over to my right, I can see the bench and ah, guys are crying and you know, just don't know what's going on. And you know, I think basically it's a freak incident. It's, I, uh, mean, it's like winning the lottery, you know, it very rarely happens typically, you know, and that's how she put it. Typically Little league baseball players get hit with a line drive or a comeback or to a pitcher and they get this. And a lot of times, unfortunately, those kids die because they're not as physically developed and their heart's not able to restart, unfortunately. And so this is what happened to Demar Hamlin with the Buffalo Bills a few, few years ago on Monday Night Football. And so, you know, I went back to St. Louis after the game, you know, the next morning after being in the hospital and had a heart specialist check me out. She walked me through a battery of tests and, and whatnot and, and basically said what I just said, you know, it's like winning the lottery. Could it happen again? It could, but there's a sequence of events and the timing, I mean absolute perfect timing or when it hits your heart, when it's going to beat. All these different things we went through, you know, are there any short term side effects, long term side effects? All these things. And at the end of the day she's like, you're, you're cleared. You know, it's really just about, wow, kind of your mental perspective of, you know, are you scarred from the incident? And you know, I said, listen, I, um, I'll go down, I'll take warm up, see how I feel. And you know, like any, like any athlete, you get your gear on, you go down there, you get all jacked up and you're like, you know what? I'm not taking my stuff off, I'm playing. And I think for me emotionally, I just wanted to rip the band aid off and like, I didn't want this stigma of that incident kind of lingering. I was like, all right, get into the game. Get hit, be hit, make a hit, get into the flow of the game. And you know, uh, by the second period, you know, the, the butterflies and the jitters and the nervousness kind of subsided and it's like just another game. And you know, I think for me personally, I just needed to get into the game. That year. I think we got swept, if I'm not mistaken, swept. So we only had one more game after that. And so just knowing kind of what I didn't want that long summer to be. Well, can. Can you play? Can you not play? What? You know, all that, the questions that can eat at you as an athlete. I just want to like. But I want to get in this game and just show that I can play.

Speaker B: If it wasn't the playoffs, you may have taken a couple more days. Obviously it was the playoffs. So therefore you wanted to get back in or.

Speaker A: No, you know what? I, I don't know. I get that, uh, played through a lot of injuries during my career. Like, if I could play, I was going to play and you know. Yes, um, it was a playoffs and you're pushing it, but I mean, she was pretty, pretty blunt in the fact that there were no short term side effects and no long. It happened. It's an event that happened. Could it happen again? Yes. But again, all of these things have to happen in a sequence that, as I just said twice now, is like winning the lottery. So it just, in my view, I just was like, the, the rewards far outweigh the risk, which there really wasn't any risk. And the difference. And uh, you know, because I brought up his name and the difference between me and demar Hamlin is massive. He was out for like eight minutes. So he had, you know, there was some brain issues and lack of oxygen and things that they really needed to address outside of mine. Uh, you know, I was out for 25, 30 seconds and the moment when I started breathing, my lips were starting to turn blue, so they were getting a little panicked. But once I started breathing, you know, that kind of subsided and yeah, it was really just kind of getting a better understanding of what happened.

Speaker B: I mean, you definitely got swept by the Stanley cup champions that year. I mean, that was the consecutive back to back win for the Red Wings. You know, Stevie Y. And they just had an incredible season. So it's been good for you to get back in there. But, you know, unfortunately in 2011, you were playing against Leafs in Philly and you were hit by a very scary stick blade right to your eye. Severely injured your eye effectively, you said, removed your sixth sense from the game. And after more concussion issues, you were unfortunately advised to retire from the doctors. You know, taking it out of your hands almost. How did you process that? You know, I can still play versus I'm actually done. And what did you think about first after you made the decision?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I had a really, you know, to. To answer the first part about the sixth sense, I had a really unique feeling sense, like walking around a corner, you you just feel like somebody's going to be there, and they would be there. Knowing where people are around you on the ice, the spatial awareness, the understanding of a. The game and knowing where they're gonna be, and then sometimes knowing where they actually are and just taking inventory of it all and having a very good understanding of it. I lost that when I got the concussion and the eye injury. I was very disoriented. Didn't have that sense or feel of where people were. And that was kind of one of my biggest attributes as a player, was knowing where everybody was and. And. And really understanding of how to, you know, methodically get through all of them, whether it be through passing or skating or what have you. So when you lose that, you lose a big part of your game. And so that. That was hard. And then, you know, I think for me, I was turning 38. You know, I felt like I had a couple good years left that particular year. I had a point of game. I was off to a really good start to the season, and, you know, we had a really good team. I was really excited for the year. And, uh, you know, and then I get to stick to the eye. And it came up as it was coming up. I saw it and I moved. And instead of it shattering my orbital bone and my eye socket, it hit me directly in the eye. So I had a lot of hemorrhaging, a lot of bleeding inside my eye, and so that really affected my vision, and I was more focused on my eye than I was thinking. I had a concussion because I thought the eye was the big issue. And so as this all kind of plays out and I'm forced to retire, no, I still had some lingering issues. I had a. My knee was bothering me a little bit, and so I got that cleaned up and whatever. And I think that first year, as I watched the rest of the year and then watched the next year, I was watching it as if I was playing and, like, really invested in, you know, you're playing every shift and you're watching the game in a way that, oh, why are they making that play? They should have did this. And why, you know, uh, that wouldn't have happened if I was there. All these things. And then, uh, and then I turned 40 and I'm like, this game is way too fast. You know, it had already in those two years, like, gotten way faster. And I'm like, holy moly. Game is super fast. Uh, there's no way I could keep up a. Ah, being out of the game that long. Still working on you know, working on my eye, working on my head, working on everything. And I'm like, there's just no way at 40, having missed that much time and still having, you know, some minor issues that I could have come back. It just wasn't feasible. So then when you come to that realization, you're like, okay, now you start watching the game differently. Where I'm watching it under the guise of how can I help the players, how can I help them, um, get better, what do I see, what are they missing that maybe I can help them with? And then it just became just watching the game, watch the game.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And I'm just enjoying the game. And you know, it's just kind of a slow evolution of, and seeing the game, you know, continue to evolve and get faster and faster and faster.

Speaker B: So when you look at players today who you say the game's changed so much, it is much faster, would you say like the most equivalent to you that's still playing today is a guy like Victor Headman?

Speaker A: Yeah, to a certain extent. You know, I think a throwback could be a, um, more insider, was going to play more brand, good skater, really good first pass, you know, still plays with an edge. Tom Wilson, you know, a few guys

Speaker B: like you, there's not many.

Speaker A: There's some guys that, that play a hard, hard nose brand of hockey.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Competitive, tough. You know, I think like anything, the game needs to evolve. The game needs to continue to, you know, in this case, faster, more skilled. You know, I would argue that those are both true. I would argue that. I think hockey sense has taken a step back, understanding of the game, understanding of the game within the game matchups and you know, all these different things

Speaker B: and you think it's become too analytical

Speaker A: almost to a certain extent. I think the players have nutritionist, fitness, shooting, passing, skating, weight training. You know, there's all these. They get a laundry list of coaches and the hockey sense kind of goes by the wayside because you're busy doing all these skill work. The hockey sense is a skill. You know, there's a lot of players that as you age, you lose, you know, some of your speeds. I mean, but you don't lose your hockey sense, your ability to be in the right place at the right time. And so they're able to prolong their careers because they are so smart.

Speaker B: Like a, uh, Crosby, just that sixth sense, he has every single second of the game is always there.

Speaker A: I don't know if he's really lost the step.

Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. It's like he's one of the guys who's aged with it perfectly.

Speaker A: And the fact that he's so dedicated to his training and how he prepares, I would argue that I don't think he has lost a step. No, you know, I'm talking about guys at age where you can see a drastic drop off in their pace and how fast they play, but they're still able to play and be effective because of how smart they are and where they go on the ice and how they move around the ice to get into the, the spots at the right time, whether, uh, to score goals or make plays or what have you.

Speaker B: For sure. You know, I want to talk about some of the things off the ice. A lot of people understand you have a full time job on the ice, but you also kind of have a full time job off the ice, which is you got to be a father, you got to be a husband, you got to be your own agent sometimes. You know, you've got trades, you've got contracts, you got public scrutiny. What did you learn about how to control what you can control versus turning a page on what you cannot control to stay focused on things on and off the ice during your career?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think as we talked about in the outset, you know, I think my maturity on the mental side, not the physical side, my maturity to understand and not take the game home as much. You're still angry and pissed off when you lose a game or maybe don't play as good as you would have liked, but you're able to park it at the door. You know, once you wife and kids and all the rest of that, things kind of come into perspective a little bit easier and you're not stewing over a loss or a bad play or something that maybe you would have when you were younger that I know I did. You know, I'd be thinking about a mistake I made four, four games later because it just was eating at me that I either made the mistake or cost us a game or something happened. And you know, as I got older, I really started to be able to step away from it, which in turn allowed me to sleep better at night, recover faster, and, you know, not let it eat away at me and grind on me day after day after day and give myself a break. And I think that really allowed me to play longer and better for a prolonged period of time because I was not letting it eat away at me every single day. And you know, I was still driven, I was still a perfectionist. I was still wanting to be the best but having an understanding of what I could control, to your point, and what I couldn't control. I can't control what, ah, people think. I can't control what other people do. I can control what I do, how I prepare, how I play, how I help my teammates and, and all the rest of that, but other than that, I can't control the rest of it. And once you understand that, you're able to really kind of focus and hone in and kind of close in on what's important and what isn't.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like when the end came, you were very focused on taking a time, taking that year off. You said you had some mentors that gave you great advice about not rushing into the next thing. Why was that year so critical? Why have you called that year some of the best advice you ever received from those mentors and helping you avoid a lot of the common post career pitfalls that many athletes fall into?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know what? I think having them around and having them give me that advice was, was incredibly beneficial in the sense that you're done playing. You've, you've done this your whole life and you're, you've been so invested in it and everything is going to sound interesting. Like, man, that's really interesting. And I think giving me that guidance of take the meetings, listen to the pitch, listen to people, whether it's charitable endeavors or business opportunities or what have you listen to them, take notes and in a year come back to them. And if something is still speaking to you, then it's a good opportunity if it can last that long because you're going to jump into things, you're going to want to do this, you want to do that. And frankly, I had to get my eye healthy, I had to get my head Healthy thinking 30, 40, 50 years out. Right. And you know, I spent 18 months retraining my eye, figuring out depth perception and, and all the rest of that, getting, you know, rid of a lot of the headaches and, and issues I was having with respect to the concussions. And so not jumping into things allowed me to really stay focused on that and then having an understanding of what speaks to me. You know, during my playing career, I thought I wanted to do xyz. Is that how I still feel a year later? And, and really kind of going back and looking at those notes and looking at what might be of interest and what might not.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And kind of what spoke to me then and then does it still speak to you and how have you evolved over that course of that year. So it was really, really beneficial to have that advice. And both guys, I got a tremendous amount of respect for, and they've been huge parts of my career. And then post Plank career, yeah, it

Speaker B: sounds like the blessing of having to do the eye recovery and the concussion. You know, recovery was actually a good space for you to have to say no to a lot of things because, you know, you tried management roles, you realized they weren't the right fit. You know, what did that kind of experience teach you about being honest with yourself, about where you can actually have impact versus just doing what everyone else is doing to fill the gap of missing their old hockey self?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you have to be honest with yourself and the impact you want to have and really understanding and being intentional in how you're showing up with respect to what you really want to do. And, like, take a real inventory of what moves you, what you're passionate about. And it might not be a huge money driver. It might be that's just what you love to do. And, you know, we see a lot of guys become firefighters. You see a lot of guys do all these different things because it's what's. What they're passionate about. That's what they want to do. And, you know, I think that's exciting for guys is, you know, what does 2.0, 3.0 look like? And, uh, then how do you get there? It's no different than, I want to be the best player in the world. Reverse engineer. What. What did the best player do to get there? And now reverse engineer what they did and now go do it. And so, you know, whether it's, you want to go try to be a gm, you want to be a scout, you want to not do anything in hockey, you want to go do something in business, you want. You want to get into finance, you want to whatever it is, you want to go start a bakery. I mean, there's all kinds of things that people get excited about and what does it look like? And then how do you go. How do you go execute on that? And, uh, I think the biggest thing for a lot of guys is they're just scared of failing.

Speaker B: That's it.

Speaker A: They don't have the expertise. They have the expertise over here in their athletic endeavor. They don't have. Because they've been doing that their whole life, and now they're scared of failing. They're, you know, they've already failed over here, but now they found success, and here is something new, and they're just like, I don't know if I can do it. Well, if you put the same effort in that you did over here, you will be successful.

Speaker B: You talk about these losses. You talk about making real investment mistakes, second homes that became liabilities, deals bloated with fees, you know, awesome to hear you talk about them. Um, I love it. What were some of the clear guidelines that came out of those losses that, you know, other athletes or other investors should know about?

Speaker A: Well, I think you. You start to create an, you know, an investment thesis of what works for you, what you're comfortable with. You know, I think for me, it's the deal itself is secondary. The people become first. Are they trustworthy? Does it make sense? Do you like them? You know, all these little things like, do you want to be in business with those people? And then it's okay. If the answer is yes, then it's, what does the deal look like? What are the parameters of the deal? What are the economics of the deal? All the rest of that, what do I bring to the deal? And then, you know, kind of go from there. And I think a lot of times we start with, is the deal any good? And then you go through all the due diligence and you look through the thing and you're like, but the people aren't great, or you don't think they can execute on it. Now, you wasted all this time going through the. This whole ordeal, and they're people that you don't want to be in business with.

Speaker B: Some red flags that you experienced with some of those failed, uh, mistakes that you would share with people during their own due diligence.

Speaker A: Everything's in the details. It's a. I think having trustworthy lawyers around you to go through the deals. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know, you know, the legalese and all the rest of that. You know, having good people around you to guide and steer you in and out of these things. And also looking at the fine print, looking at the details within it, how people are getting paid. I've had a couple deals where I've had people come to me last minute, hey, I need XYZ amount of money. I'm like, oh, okay, interesting. Send me the deal. And they're like, yeah, it closes on. This is on a Tuesday, and it closes on a Friday. And I'm like, well, those are automatic no's. Why are you coming to me now? Why didn't you come to me first? If it's such a good deal, why didn't you bring it to me first? So, uh, there's just all kinds of things like that that you know, and I've learned too, like I always sleep on everything. Like I do not if I take a meeting. I'm not giving you an answer right there. I'm going to sleep on it. I'll let it digest. I'm going to think about it. You know, I'm going to, you know, go back to my notes and just try to be as diligent as possible, looking at, through all the details and then not being rushed to do one or the other.

Speaker B: No, absolutely. I mean you've been casually kicking this book idea around for 10 to 12 years on and off, but you kind of said nothing felt right as the premise and framework just never clicked. But you seriously started working on your book two and a half years before its release. 23, 24. Eventually launching earned the true cost of greatness from one of hockey's fiercest competitors, which came out in April 2026. I mean the, you kind of wrote this book with this saying of taking off the armor. That was like the, you know, the, the kind of message that you wanted to deliver. What was the hardest truth to put on the page and why did you decide that the hockey stories alone weren't enough?

Speaker A: You know, I think when, when we look at social media, when we look at a book, I've certainly made a lot of mistakes in my life. Some have been front page news and others haven't. But you know, I think people need to realize that we all make mistakes, but we, we just need to learn from them and we need. You can't keep making the same mistake over and over and over again. You know, once you make it, fix it, accept the responsibility, take ownership of the mistake and then fix it and then move on. And you know, I think for me, as, you know, we talked about the early part of my career, the mistakes I made, you know, not being prepared, not putting the necessarily effort in, all the rest of that, fixing it, moving on, you know, other mistakes that I've made, whether it's financial, personal, whatever, uh, you know, things happen and how do we move on from them? How m. Do we evolve? How do we grow? How do we become better people? Personally, professionally, you know, and I think once people understand that we're ever evolving people both in sports and in life, that that part of it, I think if there's one thing, it's that it's having an understanding of that people can change, number one. But people evolve. Like who I was at 18. I still have a lot of the same Values and beliefs, but he's not the same person that, that I am now at almost 52.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So, you know, I think, you know, that you hold some of those things true to your core and then you evolve and grow the ones that are a little malleable or pliable. And that to me is what life's all about.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean the title just keeps coming back to the idea that there just are no shortcuts. Right. Everything is earned and practice is day to day, not fast forward.

Speaker A: When we were going through what name should it be and came up with Aaron came up with three other ones, we kept coming back to everything in life is earned. Like there are no shortcuts, there are no handouts. There are. You earn every opportunity, you earn every ounce of respect. You earn everything and you earn leadership. And so we just kept coming back to that and it just, it's so fitting, I think, for A, my career and B, the evolution of my path and journey, that every ounce has been earned over all the adversity and the good and the bad and the ugly. It's, it's all been earned.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: I, uh, mean in some form or fashion.

Speaker B: Looking at your kids own development and your wife Lauren's, you know, inspired travels boutique luxury travel company, how do you help motivate your family to achieve the greatness that you achieved without doing it for them so that they also earn it?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is we do not play the what if game in this house. You know, the idea that, well, I, uh, what if I didn't do this instead I did this. I'm like, everything else changes. There's forks at the road at every moment in time. Why didn't I, you know, if I went and played college instead of going to major junior, everything else changes after that. Doesn't mean everything's going to be the same. So I, I try to walk them through, you know, put them in, in my shoes, uh, in those really important moments in my life of, well, what if I chose to play AAA hockey versus high school? And then everything constantly changes right after that. It's not the same journey after that or the same path. And you don't get to just pick select moments and everything stays the same. And so, you know, I think that we, we are uniquely positioned with our eyes going this way, our feet going this way, everything is pointing this direction. We don't, we don't have rear view mirrors, we don't look that way. We, we know what we did. We can learn from it. We can Grow from it. We can evolve from it, but we are going this way for a reason.

Speaker B: Are there any other major rules in your household that you guys live by?

Speaker A: I mean, they're pretty simple. Work hard, do the absolute best you can. Make sure you don't come home and say, man, I wish I would have worked harder. Man, I wish you would have tried more. They're pretty simple. Uh, we try to keep things very simple in this household. That's good work hard, work ethic matters. Uh, being a good person matters. Everybody opinion. Everybody's opinion matters. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. It doesn't mean you have to believe it or like it, but everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Speaker B: No, that's amazing advice. You know, I appreciate all the advice and you know, the hard earned messages you've shared about resilience, identity, long term thinking. Before we wrap things up, Chris, with our guests, we always ask them for their fast favorites. So let's see if we can get some out of you. First off, is your favorite newsletter or blog that you subscribe or listen to.

Speaker A: Whoa. Favorite newsletter blog. Oh, man, I, uh, you know, I like, uh, Sahil Blooms.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: He's got a, he's got a really good newsletter.

Speaker B: He does have a good one.

Speaker A: I like, got some good nuggets in there.

Speaker B: How about your favorite tech gadget? You got any new wearables or anything?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, I've got this on. I don't know, I've got a love hate relationship with it. I mean really, I don't have a lot of tech other than a computer, a iPad and a phone.

Speaker B: Well, you're pretty active, so maybe it'll get you on the next one. What's your favorite, favorite new trend?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, is AI a trend? I don't know.

Speaker B: It's a good one. That counts. How are you using AI in your own personal life and work life?

Speaker A: I am right at the infancy of trying to incorporate it into everything. You know, whether it's my calendar, my, you know, just trying to utilize it to be more efficient. Buy back my time if you will. So that awesome. You know, I can be more present for other things.

Speaker B: I love it. How about your favorite book? Obviously we gotta plug the earned book from yourself, but any other books that have inspired you to be your own author? That one right there.

Speaker A: Well, let's, let's take a look. What do I got back here? Oh, I'm just finishing this one right here.

Speaker B: Which one's this?

Speaker A: Running Down a Dream by Bill Gurley.

Speaker B: Uh, ah, nice you got the Bill Gurley book. How have you read it yet?

Speaker A: I'm, um, just about done. Just finishing it.

Speaker B: And overall thoughts?

Speaker A: Excellent. Excellent book.

Speaker B: Excellent.

Speaker A: Yeah, really good book. It's, uh. I'm gonna have my, uh, older son read it next.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And last but not least, your favorite life lesson, Chris. Ooh.

Speaker A: You get what you put into it.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Earned grit, leadership and life after the peak with Chris Pronger. Thanks so much for jumping in the tank, Chris.

Speaker A: Thank you. Appreciate it, Matt.

Speaker B: Hey everyone. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Tank Talks. We hope you found today's conversation as insightful as we did. If you're enjoying the show, we've got three quick things to ask of you. First, hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode, whether that's Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google podcast or YouTube. Next. Follow us and stay up to date on upcoming episodes and behind the scenes content on social media with Twitter, LinkedIn and Instagram. And lastly, share the love. If you found value in today's episode, share with a friend or colleague who'd benefit too. Your support helps us bring in more amazing guests and keeps the Tank Tops engine running. That's it for today. Until next time. Keep disrupting and innovating.