The future of sustainable textiles with Spinnova

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: This is Talking Digital Industries, the podcast for technologies and trends that drive sustainable digital enterprises. I'm your host, Alex Chavez. Textiles are a fundamental part of our lives. We wear them, we sleep in them, they're basically all around us. But how often do we stop to think about where they come from and how sustainable they really are? With a growing awareness of the environmental impact of textile production, that conversation is shifting. And one company leading this transformation is Spinova, which is pioneering a sustainable approach to textile fiber production. In today's episode, we'll explore Spinova's innovative technology and how Siemens is helping bring their vision to life. My guests for this conversation are Juha Huh Salmela. He is the CTO and co founder of Spinova and a member of the company's management board. And Erin Devola, she's the head of sustainability at Siemens Digital Industries. So welcome to both of you. And Erin, it's great to have you back on the show.

Speaker A: It's always great to be here.

Speaker C: Thank you. Great to be here.

Speaker B: As I mentioned, the fashion industry is under increasing scrutiny. So while I was researching for this episode, I found two striking facts about cotton. The first is that it takes about 2,700 liters of water to produce one T shirt. Imagine that, 2,700 liters of water. That's a lot. The second, uh, fact that I found was that cotton accounts for about 220 million tons of CO2 emissions annually, which is the equivalent to the emissions from over 50 coal fired power plants. Also an incredible amount. So you might think, okay, uh, then we'll make clothing from synthetic fibers. But here's the problem. Every time they're washed, they shed plastic microfibers into the environment. And that's also a big problem. Now Spinova has developed a new fiber production technology to help address these and many more issues. Juha, so can you please tell us about this technology?

Speaker C: My pleasure. You have really found the key problems of the tech study industry. And um, if we start, uh, thinking about Spinnauer fiber and background where we come from. First of all, we are inspired by nature, my dear. Originally came from me sitting at the, uh, University of Oxford listening. Uh, very interesting presentation about what are the similarities between our raw material and how spiders or silkworms create their silk or spider webs. And there I got the idea. Perhaps we can create textile fibers out of wood without any chemical processes. And if there is one thing to remember from today is that, uh, spinoba process is 100% mechanical. We don't use any harmful chemicals and on the raw material side, our technology is raw material agnostic. I would say, uh, we can feed exactly the same process with wood pulp, recycled textile pulp, agricultural, uh, waste pulp, and even leather waste. And they all go through exactly the same mechanical process and create spin of a fiber. I think the best way to characterize why we are so different is that our first commercial textile fiber production factory didn't even require, uh, environmental permit because we don't create any waste streams.

Speaker B: That's incredible. So you're actually taking in some cases waste materials and making new materials out of them, but not creating any waste in the process.

Speaker C: Exactly. We have put a lot of concentration on collecting and reutilizing our evaporated water and reusing and returning excess heat from our process. So we utilize that again as much as possible and, uh, return remaining heat back to the district heated system of our city here. And if I may add one thing, that our fiber is by nature recyclable. So we produce, uh, the fiber, then it's used, and if we can collect it back, that's the best raw material for next generation of spinnaw fiber. Because with the recycling, our fiber actually

Speaker B: improves, so it gets better with each time. I'd, uh, like to clarify your business model. As I understand it, you're not producing the textile fibers yourself, but rather providing the technologies so that your customers can do so. Is that right?

Speaker C: Exactly. At the beginning, we were very heavily involved in the fiber production also. But now we are focusing on providing the technology to produce spinnova fiber. We have three or four key business components, so we own our own ip, we own the data, uh, our factories produce, we develop the technology and sell it together with the license to produce the, uh, fiber. And then we work with the brand owners to open markets and get them familiarized with our fiber and then open markets to our technology customers. But as I said, data and IP is really the core competence of spinnova.

Speaker B: Aaron, have you ever held fabric made with spinova's, uh, technology, and does it feel any different from the cotton we all know?

Speaker A: So not only have I held it, I've actually had the great opportunity to try on a number of pieces that were made with Spin Spinova's technology. So we had a business conference, um, within Siemens last October, and Spinova was supporting us in doing some sharing of their innovation with our internal audience. And there they sent us a box of a number of different pieces of clothing that we got to try. And so I would say that there's all sorts of different types of fabrics they can make with this technology. And not only is it sustainable or more sustainable, it's also quite fashionable.

Speaker B: Very cool. So Siemens has really played a big role in helping spinova achieve this vision of more sustainable fiber production. And I'd like to take a closer look at that collaboration, uh, from your perspective, Erin, how, uh, would you describe the Siemens contribution here?

Speaker A: So one of the things that we're really putting a focus on here at Siemens is how do we help innovative tech companies really scale and take what they want to do, take their idea from producing maybe 100 of something to producing 100 million and giving them those tools they need to not just do more, but do it more efficiently, do it faster, and bring it to market in a way that helps them meet, um, needs and also protect the planet we have here. So two ways we do that. One is with the great digital products, we have to live in a digital first environment to help not just produce the data that Yuha was talking about earlier, but to process that data and turn that data into information, into insights, and then more refined and even better technology in a continuous loop of optimization, bringing that digital world insight to the real world and then also from the real world back to the digital world. And I think that's really, um, where we play a lot is helping bring that all happening. Where innovative technical companies have the pieces, we help them pull that together with the tools to scale it, uh, in a real way. And the technology is one important piece of it, but the other piece of it is putting together the network and really bringing them in contact with other people, not just Siemens, but with people within our ecosystem to bring all the needed pieces to make a full circular system that then we can keep driving toward a more circular solution long term. So for example, we pulled Together more than 50 companies and 10 technology providers to help work with Spinova and help bring their innovation to broader scale. And really one of the things I was going to mention too, with this business model they have, it really helps them scale faster because they can work with everyone rather than being limited a little bit by one factory or how quickly they could scale.

Speaker B: Excellent. Juha, We've heard a lot about the vision that spinova has and Aaron just mentioned some of the aspects, some of the technologies that are involved there. What have they helped you achieve? And also taking into consideration also this ecosystem network that Aaron, uh, spoke about,

Speaker C: I'm really happy to talk about this because, uh, since the beginning we identified that data is really key here. Who owns the data, holds the key to the whole sustainable textile through our technology and that discussion. We started very early days of Spinno and I have to say that our background was on the scaling up of individual components, all from the lab to industrial scale. And we had no idea uh, about factory level operations. We knew exactly how to do this small scaling. But then when we go to factory level we didn't know very much about that. And that's why we selected Siemens as a partner to educate us. And I have to admit that it wasn't easy. For example to me at the beginning we had a different language I would even say. But it was amazing to see how fast Siemens people adapted. They realized that this guy doesn't understand what they are talking about. And when we sort of learned our common language it has been amazing. Just one example, before our first factory was not even built, we were teaching our operators using the digital twin and similar systems how to run the factory. And when the factory was up and running they already knew how the process works and what the operating windows look like and all that. Well before the factory was built we did a factory uh, simulation and identified some bottlenecks. Without that we would have built wrong kind of factory with wrong tank sizes and ended up into problems during the startup phase. So we have done a lot. But then we are also planning how to utilize state of the art uh technology so that when we go to much larger scale globally, we still manage the data, improve processes and help our customers with their possible problems.

Speaker B: So in the beginning it was a lot about getting spinova and Siemens on the same wavelength then, wasn't it?

Speaker C: Exactly. It's like I call physics a um language but also this it and um, Siemens technology, it has so many words that if you don't have uh, education on that special field, it takes a little bit time to get used to all these terms. And I did challenge CMS people quite much. I remember quite many occasions I said that please stop saying those three letter words, explain more easier terms. And now it's very good conference.

Speaker A: You know one thing I really identify with, you said there is even within Siemens, I grew up in factories and spent most of my career working in factories. And as it is becoming and it ot integration are becoming so key, it's trying to learn how to speak and think in not just processes, which is how I'm naturally oriented, but also in architectures which are so important for that IT integration piece. And it really just kind uh of emphasizes how it's always a learning journey. Right. So no matter if you're coming from a physics background to A production background or a traditional production background to a more it's and AI ready place that there's this continuous learning and new language and new vocabulary that comes into those conversations so often.

Speaker B: One of the vocabularies I can imagine here are terms and ideas that center on sustainability. And if we look at Spinova, this is their core, we've got, uh, environmental stewardship, um, smart manufacturing, very intelligent use of resources. So Erin, if you look at other customers, perhaps they're just now starting out on their sustainability journey, what is that like for you? What sort of conversations are you having with those customers?

Speaker A: So you really can have every conversation. You know, the sustainability, uh, is really a growing field and we learn more and more about the impacts we're having as we look to the second third layer all the time. But we have conversations with those who are just starting and maybe in a very established business with an established program. And we try to talk to them about how they can evolutionarily make steps that make them more sustainable, whether that's in energy savings, in lower water usage, in eliminating chemicals, which I think is a really important topic that will become more important as we look at the future, looking at where we're using chemicals and how those chemicals are impacting the people who live on the planet and the planet itself. And we see people at all places in these journeys. So we see these new innovative companies like Spinova that are really revolutionizing an industry and thinking about the whole thing differently from the start. But we also have a lot of customers who are coming more traditionally at the problems and still tacking those in ways that make sense for them and make them more resilient, more viable, more profitable and of course more sustainable at the end.

Speaker B: A key term here is sustainable digital enterprise, isn't it?

Speaker A: I love this. So what we really want to talk about here is we want to have enterprises and support enterprises that are sustainable, which means that they're looking at what the impacts they're having. They're eliminating all waste along the way that are digital because that digital orientation, that digital native place, helps you become more efficient and more effective in how you deliver value and conserve resources. And we have to always keep in mind that we're not operating in a vacuum. We're really part of our own enterprise, but also a broader ecosystem. So this particular term is sustainable digital enterprise. This is what it means to, to me and we really focus on this as we support industry customers, um, to walk along this journey along with us.

Speaker B: Tell me a little bit more about sustainable digital Enterprise, what aspects need to come together there? I mean, you've touched on a few of them. Uh, you know, mindset is probably a very important one too.

Speaker A: When we think about a sustainable digital enterprise, we first also need to look at what are the skills, mindsets or, uh, requirements that we need to put on for a product at the beginning. So 80% of the environmental impacts of a product are determined in that design phase. So if we can start greenfield and start with that design phase, that's where we always want to start. We want to start with what is it we want to do, what are the requirements that either serve the business well or serve the planet well that we need to put into that process? And then we continuously are driving, I always say this, we're making the design engineer's job continually more complicated, but we're giving them better and better tools, tools to manage that complexity. So you might now have requirements for CO2, you might now have requirements for water usage, for biodiversity that you didn't think about before. So we need to have a workforce that's able to understand these concepts and then also have tools that can model these impacts. At the same time, if you move into the production space, you want to also be looking at doing a digital first or a digital native operation. So I can first do all of this trial and error. You had mentioned this earlier. If I would have started with my first idea, I may have wasted a lot of time, money and research resources to get to the right third or fourth iteration. You can do all of this scenario planning, all of this iteration in the digital world before you even think about moving to the real world. Another way that we're really creating that digital native sustainable enterprise at the beginning. And then as you move through production, looking at how you move into, um, the use phase, really planning for that back in the design phase and managing those products as they get out into the world. You see more and more, um, regulations coming for passports and then the value of having that passport data that I can feed back into the next design loop. So maybe a bit detailed, but I get really excited when we talk about the sustainable digital enterprise because I just believe that if we can continue to move the world this way, we will be able to correct some of the damage we've done and really provide a place for future generations to live, work and thrive.

Speaker B: Very good. That sounds excellent for you. Um, uhod, what Aaron just described, that must sound all very familiar considering that you've started digital from the very beginning.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. And I 100% agree with everything we just heard. But I want to add also one very key component, that it's economically sustainable. It doesn't matter at all if we create a product that is the most environmentally sustainable in the world. But it's too expensive, no one buys it. So economically viable and sustainable product is also key to make an impact, global impact to the environment. For example, it doesn't matter if our carbon footprint of our Spinname fiber is 74% lower compared to the conventional cotton production and we use 98% less water compared to cotton. Our fiber has to fulfill how end customers see the product. They have to be happy. The whole life cycle has to be sustainable and then the price point has to be good enough. When we fulfill these three first steps, then discussing with Xtal brand owners is so much easier. And one thing I want to mention that uh, through using digital tools we have provided a uh, very nice and unique way to trace our fiber all the way to the eucalyptus tree or whatever the raw material source is. And um, say what energy sources, what additives, what processing, whatever is included in our.

Speaker B: Tell me what's next for Spinova. Sounds like you've achieved the environmental sustainability, the economic sustainability, uh, what's next?

Speaker C: Well, to achieve long term this price point, we have very aggressive goals on the productivity increase. And all this requires state of the art automatization and technology developments on all fronts starting from raw material processing all the way to textiles value chain. So that's a uh, long term vision, we improve our technology much more. But then short term we are working very hard to open the next big factory. So I'm really looking forward for that. And then personally for me I think the m most exciting is other non wood raw materials, agricultural waste, textile, uh, waste leather waste, recycled cardboard. Very exciting because my nature is research and development. So when I get my hands on new fiber sources, that's really what's driving me. So great interesting things coming from that side.

Speaker B: Also a final question for each of you. If you were to open up your closet right now, would we find any textiles in there made with Spinova's technology?

Speaker A: Not yet. Because it is so hard to get your hands on it. It is constantly sold out. But I'm looking for it. I'm on the hunt.

Speaker B: But at least you've tried the fibers before with that box you spoke about in the beginning.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So now I know exactly why I want it so much. And so now it's even more of a need for me to find it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I have to say that I personally bought, I think Every piece that has been available. And um, Saturday morning I have a trip where I'm going to be using our skis made with Spinnova fiber. So pretty much everything I have been able to buy. So yeah, I do.

Speaker B: Wait a minute. Juhai. Huh? You just mentioned skis. For me, Spinova was all about textile fiber production.

Speaker C: Great observation. Yes, uh, we are definitely looking outside of wearable textiles. Also one option is home textiles, but then our fiber is very versatile. We have demonstrated use of spin off fiber to replace glass fibers in biodegradable composites, for example, and prime example of that is these skis. But then we are looking also at the automotive industry and non wovens and several other applications.

Speaker B: How would our listeners, if they want to add, uh, something into their closet with Spinova fiber technology, how do they do this? Is there a label or something they should keep their eyes open for?

Speaker C: Yes, totally. There is always Spinnova label with QR code for full traceability.

Speaker B: Very cool. Then the next time I'm in a store, I'm going to have my eyes open for that Spinova, uh, logo. See if I can get my hands on something. Uh, it's been a great pleasure to speak with both of you. Aaron and Juha. Huh? Thank you for introducing me to this world of more sustainable textile fibers. For explaining how the Siemens technologies have played a role in Spinova's business to our listeners. If you'd like more information, you can visit Siemens Spinova. This is Talking Digital Industries. I'm Alex Chavez. Thank you for being with us and we look forward to having you with us again soon. Goodbye.