We Analysed 5117 Sales Coaching Calls - Here's Why Your Deals Are Stalling

Tom Boston: If you feel like you're coaching, but your pipeline still feels fragile, this episode will explain why. Because sales leaders don't have a coaching problem, they often have a blind spot. In this episode, we break down what actually happens inside sales coaching conversations using insights from 5,117 real coaching calls analyzed this year. Oli Whitfield is joined by Steve Myers and John Richardson, and together they surface the gaps nobody talks about why decision process dominates every deal, why champions barely get mentioned, why closing is still misunderstood, and why mindset, the thing that underpins everything, almost never gets addressed directly. This is candid, data backed conversation for sales leaders who want coaching that drives pipeline and builds better sellers, not just more activity. I'm your host, Tom Boston. And welcome back to the surviving sales leadership sessions from my sales coach. Let's get into it. P.S. did you know we've just created the modern Revenue leaders sales coaching manual? It's 48 pages full of insights on how you can successfully coach your sales team. Whether you've got high performers, low performers, new sellers or old sellers, we've got the frameworks to coach them. Uh, all grab your free copy of the manual today.

Oli Whitfield: John, how are you, sir? Uh, pleasure to have you on. Is this the first webinar you have done with my sales coach or not?

John Richardson: It is, considering how long I've been at my sales coach. Um, since day one. It is the first my Sales coach webinar I've, uh, appeared on.

Oli Whitfield: You do look quite nervous. Are you alright, mate?

John Richardson: Oh, wow. That is a triggering question to ask me. I'm fine. I'm very excited to be here and feeling no nerves whatsoever.

Oli Whitfield: Very good. All part of the fun. We were talking, everyone just before we went live about the reverse psychology of how to make someone come out of their shell. I was doing that a little bit there with John. Steve, I need to do no such thing with you. How are you, sir? Been a while.

Steve Myers: It has been a while. And can I just say, I'm absolutely terrified.

Oli Whitfield: Are you? Well, that makes me feel slightly unrelaxed. Thanks for the reverse psychology. We're going to go through a quick icebreaker, a bit of fun, then we're going to go through the headlines and the surprises for you. All right? So. So, Jon, I'm not going to make you guess just yet. I'm going to give you the opportunity to speculate and maybe allow yourself to put Steve off. Any thoughts and guesses of where you might want to skew him here?

John Richardson: Well, I just started thinking about what I ask in my Coaching calls. And actually, I don't really ask the question, but the question that I don't ask that I think a lot is, am I insane? You know, I share a statement of something that I'm working on or something that I'm thinking about. And really what I'm asking is, am I insane for thinking this? They're kind of the thoughts that are going around in my head is.

Steve Myers: Is what are the.

John Richardson: What are the things that people think they're insane for thinking that they'll bring to a coaching session?

Oli Whitfield: Am I insane? Okay, Steve, any, uh, any retaliation to that?

Steve Myers: That's a genius answer. I think mine's m. More practical. I think the. The most common question I get asked, I think, is how do I get to the real decision maker? Uh, and how do I get them, um, to engage and how do I get them to move the goddamn deal forward a bit? I think that's probably the most popular question that I get asked.

Oli Whitfield: Okay, can I ask you both? Was that your guess, or is that the stall to let everyone have a minute to go through the answers?

John Richardson: 100% my stall.

Oli Whitfield: Okay. Does that mean you don't like your answer compared to Steve's and you'd like to have another go?

John Richardson: Oh, no, no, no, no. You told me to try and throw him off, so I thought I'd ask. Isn't asked. I think my guess would be, and I actually think that people don't know that the real question they need to ask is the one that people ask Steve. I think Steve might be distracted by enlightened coaches. Often I think the biggest question and my guess is going to be, what am I doing wrong? And I think people look for a bit of diagnosis in their sessions. So I think that that's going to be my guess is, what am I doing wrong?

Oli Whitfield: What am I doing wrong? And Steve, was that your guess, or do you want to make a different one, too?

Steve Myers: No, I think the audience would probably have used, um, uh, tips and tricks, quote, unquote.

Oli Whitfield: Tips and tricks.

Steve Myers: Tips and tricks. Can I have some tips and tricks to do X, where X is get more people do better cold calls.

Oli Whitfield: Okay.

Steve Myers: But everybody wants the tips and the tricks.

Oli Whitfield: Well, right. I've got the answers up, so I'm going to go through. And I'm not going to name names. Why are they Ghosting me? Is 1. What is the part of the business we're struggling with the most at the minute? What's your ideal outcome from this session? What went well? What could have gone better? Feel like I'm not fulfilling my potential and being as productive as I can. Pipeline progress about handling interpersonal issues at work. How are you? Is one I can imagine. That's uh, one we hear a lot at the start. And how do I close more deals? That was an interesting one. All right, so the data that we've analyzed and then we're going to go and spend as much time as we can on looking through the key things that we found inside of it. So 5,117 sales coaching calls taken from this year 2025. All my sales coach coaching calls. 50, 50 split, roughly speaking from SDRs to AES, uh, in terms of who was the coachee and all industries covered, all experience levels, all types of deal size, deal values, deal, uh, cycles, a whole blend. So that's the context we've got here. All B2B. But that's what we've got and that's the makeup of these just over 5,000 sales coaching calls. The headlines. And uh, I'll pause for a quick reaction here just before we go into the real finer details. 67% of the sales coaching calls mention deals and P 68% mentioned team dynamics. Internally. We just heard that a moment ago and there was a very, very sparse, uh, Sparse is the wrong word. Very heavy coverage of some parts of medpic and a very, very, very light amount of coverage in other parts of med pick. And they might not be the ones that you think they actually are. So we'll go into that later. Before I go on, gents, any immediate reactions, thoughts, concerns, moments of happiness? What do we think?

John Richardson: I'm happy to go first. I think so many people are, uh, bringing up Team Dynam is an indicator that maybe we're managing some of the wrong things, that we're not doing the right things to enable our teams to progress and to get things done. And maybe some of our manager behaviors are, uh, limiting people and so they're feeling the need to ask questions about that and to bring that up in coaching sessions. Having said that, the fact that it's a very similar number to the amount of ones that are bringing up deals and pipeline shows that people's focus is on getting things done right. People are talking about and wanting help to achieve the things generally that they're supposed to want to achieve achieve. Which is a great sign for, I guess, what that coaching can impact and where those coaches can help.

Steve Myers: I'm super encouraged and by those first two. The fact that the majority of calls talk about deals, that's what we're all here for. Right. Sales is about going to the bank. It's about moving that needle on the gauge that says revenue. So the fact we're having conversations about what really matters is super encouraging. And the fact that 68% are talking about measuring, mentioning team dynamics internally, I think is an incredible validation of. And I have to kind of caveat this because I don't work directly for my sales coach. Right. But I think it's an incredible validation of what my sales coach you're doing in the sense of providing external coaching. Because my as an external coach, that is a safe space to talk about team dynamics. And I do get a lot of that. I do get a look I want to go for promotion. How do I raise this? I've got this issue with my manager. How do I raise it? I get an awful lot of that team dynamic stuff. And I get it because, you know, I'm an independent third party with no hidden agenda. So I think when we look at these statistics, I think often we have to kind of look at, uh, what's underpinning them. We can't necessarily take them at face value. So I think, you know, 68% mentioning team dynamics is a function of us being external. And you might not get that number as an internal coach. Right. And that's just because we're external. The Med pick thing, I'm interested to see what comes more. But of course, MEDPIC is just one methodology amongst others. Right. So, you know, if you're not using a Med pick methodology or using Miller, Hyman or Holden or Power Base or, you know, insert any one of 16 others, you're not going to talk about that. So again, interesting to unpick what's underlying, what's underpinning some of these stats. But keen to dive into that.

Oli Whitfield: You're welcome to come back, Steve. You always do a good job. All right, let's crack on. First key piece and then I'm going to pull the slides down. So inside of Med pick, the D for decision process has been, you could say, an obsession. Mentioned in 98% of calls. John's wincing high. Too high, too low. What do you think?

John Richardson: Well, uh, I think I heard a great quote from a coach last week who was. I said quote, I'm going to butcher what he exactly said, but he talked about how the purpose of a salesperson is to help people buy. And I think, I think if decision process, if the process that people go through to make a decision wasn't 98 plus percent, I'd be concerned. Right. If, if you are Selling anything to anyone. And you're not talking about how those people make decisions and understanding that. And you know, whether it's, whether it's understanding explicitly their decision making process or the psychology behind how people make decisions and leaning into that in your sales attempts, efforts, activities, you're probably focused on the wrong thing. So that wasn't a wince of pain, it was a wince of satisfaction. And uh, we've got starting in the right place, right? If that comes up on all those calls, it won't be the core topic, it won't be the only topic. But definitely, uh, a good sign from my perspective that, that people are thinking about the role of sales in the right way.

Oli Whitfield: Would you agree, Steve?

Steve Myers: I'm wondering whether we have any, any data that supports whether this is a topic which is raised by the coach or the coachee. I'm guessing no, I'm guessing. It's just we know that 98% of calls get. We talk about deal pro, we talk about process. You know, a lot of times a massive reason for deals getting ghosted is because people don't understand the decision process, right? I always tell people there is a single correct time to follow up, right? And every other time is incorrect. And that single correct time to follow up is the time that you agreed with the prospect that you would follow up next. If you don't have that agreement to follow up next and you start chasing, then you're going to get ghosted. So a lot of the symptoms that people come to us with, right? I can't get to the decision maker, uh, I'm getting ghosted. Deals are stalled, right? And again, you know, talking to business leaders, it's either there isn't enough stuff getting into the top of the funnel, or uh, there's loads of stuff going into the top of the funnel. There's just nothing coming out the back end, right? Because, you know, there's just, pipeline is getting clogged, there's nothing coming out. Then I'm going to, you know, look to decision process, right? And you know, can, can you articulate who's involved in that? Can you articulate the steps of the process? Can you articulate the timings of the process? Can you, uh, articulate the reason why the timings are the timings. Do you know where in that organization is the power of veto? Right. So, you know, decision process is just at the heart of any deal which is not progressing through with the necessity, you know, with the velocity that we need, right? And sales velocity, again, is an often discussed topic. So I Think this might be not coaches coming saying can we talk about the decision process? I think this is coachees coming with a symptom and the decision process being a diagnosis perhaps or first pass diagnosis of um, why that symptom might exist.

Oli Whitfield: Steve, could I ask you, um, in terms of when you're doing your coaching, I imagine this is a similar stat to what you might see typically anyway, how much of this is tactical coaching or what might be required is tactical coaching versus the understanding? I think it could easily be both quite often, but as in a lot of what you described, that it sounded like teaching to understand the ideas and the why the chasing happens. Not necessarily write about a follow up email, but more of the why I

Steve Myers: would assume is an interesting question. I always try in my coaching and address both. You know, this is like the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching amounts of fish. Right. I always use an analogy of looking at things through two lenses. So when somebody comes to me with a tactical problem, you know, I've got a deal which is stalled. You know, it's, I can give them advice as to how to install that deal tactically, but I always say let's look not only through that tactical lens, bros are through a strategic lens. Let's say what got you into that situation and then what can you do to avoid getting into that situation again? And the analogy that I use very often is, is, is that of a, a race car which crashes out on the corner of a circuit. You know, by the time the race car got to the corner, the crash was inevitable. Right. You know, the car was in the wrong line, it was in the wrong speed to prevent the crash, you're going to have to, you know, do something miraculous. But if you go several hundred yards, slash meters up the track and you put the car on the right line, in the wrong, in the right configuration, then you're going to eliminate the crash on the corner. It's the same thing in sales. If you've got a deal which is ghosted, then you know you're going to have to kind of work miracles to get it ungosted tactically. But from a more strategic point of view, if you talk about what happened much earlier in that process where you realize that what you didn't have was a strong upfront contract, you didn't have an agreement that ghosting wasn't an option, you didn't have the necessary environment of equal business stature, uh, to be able to create those things, then it's more about listening to understand. Right. So you know, you can. And that's the great thing about deal coaching is not only can you provide a tactical fix. You know, you can provide fish, but you can also teach the coach eat a fish so that they're not coming to you again with. With the same problem. Uh, sorry if I mangled about 18 analogies there.

John Richardson: I like to add an extra line to the, to the fish statement around, you know, if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime. But a starving man isn't ready to learn how to fish.

Steve Myers: I, uh, love that.

John Richardson: And I think that's kind of what you were talking about, that in those situations you have the ability to recognize that if somebody's in the crash, they just need help to deal with. Just need help to the way they are. But then you can kind of give them that. Give them that fish, give them what they need today while setting the scene for. Okay, now next time when we take the corner, let's diagnose some of those areas. And it's. I'm going to show you how I got the fish and I'm going to talk to you through how this fish that you're eating is going to be something that you can get more of and et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, I think that's one of the beauties. We've kind of touched on diagnosis a few times already that, you know, as a coach, you can diagnose the problem whilst providing the help in the moment, but setting the platform for that behavioral change for future.

Steve Myers: Yeah, I think you have to do. I think you have to do both. Yeah, you have to do both. You know, sometimes, uh, I'll see leaders creating an environment of kind of mutual dependency, right. Where they don't do both. Uh, uh, so their team members become dependent on. On them to solve problems, and they become dependent on their team members to bring them problems because then they have the emotional gratification of being the hero. And so you have to kind of work on both of those. So, yeah, I love that line. I'm going to pinch it and then I'm going to say it was mine.

John Richardson: You're welcome.

Oli Whitfield: Good stuff, guys. All right, any, any last remarks before I move us on one?

John Richardson: All good.

Oli Whitfield: All right, we've got no more analogies left for the rest of the event. Number two, champions are neglected, hardly mentioned at all. Less than 10%. They're only mentioning 8% of cause. I, upon reading this thought, there's no way that that is true. It's too low. Surely it's the first thing you mentioned because you've got a deal with somebody and you now need to meet their boss and you're having trouble with. That was my assumption. So I'll take this down. I want to see the, uh, look of maybe surprise on the faces, chaps. Oh, John, that's a surprise face. Talk to me.

John Richardson: I think Steve should go first here. I'm going to hold my tongue and react to Steve's reaction as well.

Steve Myers: I don't know if I'm surprised by that. Again, I think there's lots of reasons why you get that, that, that start. You know, if you're not using Medpit, you won't get. You want to hear the concept of, of a champion. It'll be called something else. It's only of value in complex sales where you don't have access to power. And actually, you know, in a lot of my work with people, I want them to get direct sellers. I want them to get direct access to power rather than relying on the champion. So I think you could argue that relying on a champion in a lot of cases is, is. Is what you do as a fallback if you don't have direct access to power. So there are lots of reasons for that. But, yeah, a lot of times, you know, people don't understand we know what a champion is all about. Right.

John Richardson: That was very much my sentiment as well, that I think I would have expected it to be slightly higher, but not significantly higher. You know, if it was a 50, 50 split of SDRs and AES, I'd expect it to be maybe closer to 25% of conversations. Again, with that filter of, you know, many people we coach might be in smaller organizations or selling to smaller organizations. Less complexity. It's probably that next level up, though. I think my read is that most people's challenge is more around generating pipeline. Like if I, if I. From my experience of coaches that we work with and the conversations I have with them, um, the primary thing is about generating pipeline, not executing on pipeline. Not that there aren't many sins in there and many challenges in there, but if they were to prioritize them, you can't execute on a pipeline you don't have. And finding a champion is. Well, often you start with somebody that could be a champion, and it's more, how do you turn them into a champion? And so there's maybe some language challenges in there, but really that's a problem for later down the funnel. And not that we only work with people on earlier Stage deals. Not that those aren't, uh, that we don't have the expertise and that we don't hang out in that area. But I think your average AE is struggling with, with a lack of pipeline more than what they do with the pipeline once they get it. And not because they're better at that second half, just because maybe they're not so good at the first half.

Steve Myers: I mean, it does tie into the first stat, right, which is decision pro, you know, lack of understanding of the decision process. So a lot of times people don't understand that they do need a champion. If they need a champion.

Oli Whitfield: I think you said it, Steve. The, the. You may not be familiar with the word champion or maybe use other wording if you don't use med pick specifically. I knew of and used that word long before I knew what med pick was, but maybe I've just been exposed to salespace for a long time. Is there a different word for that? I haven't across it personally. I think just that word is synonymous with the person who's going to help you drive the coach. Please be Kim.

Steve Myers: Yeah, I mean, the, the different methodologies apply different labels. Um, you know, Hawthwaite call it the focus of, the focus of pain. Some of medpex Hawthwaite say there's a focus of receptivity, which is the person that will engage. There's the focus of pain, which is the person that's got the problem, and the focus of power, which is the person that could, uh, do something about it. Right. They may or may not be the same people depending in different organizations. So, yeah, I mean, let's not get hung up on labels, on semantics. You know, a champion is somebody who has a problem but doesn't have the power to fix it. So, yeah, I think that's just a semantics thing.

Oli Whitfield: Roughly 50% of the data here is SDRs. Roughly 50% is A's. So make of that what you do. 55% of the calls in question here discussed prospecting specifically that word. 67% discussed the words pipeline in detail. I would expect probably 100% of SDRs in their coaching calls to discuss prospecting because it is the absolute bulk of their job. If they're not succeeding at that, they're not booking meetings. They're going to struggle to keep the job. So that I would expect north of 50% though, because we're getting into the AE territory. I'm wondering how many of those are full cycle. I'm wondering how many of those do how much prospecting and how much of an issue that is after they have been promoted. So you uh, know you'd wonder why that might be more of a topic. That's where my logic leads me. And Pipeline, I would have hoped it would have been quite a high number like this. Otherwise that's a little bit concerning. I'm interested where you guys take this on whether you thought that would be higher because of everything in sales is about Pipeline or lower because of the role split out there. Maybe an SDR is less worried about Pipeline more than meetings booked. Maybe that's correct, maybe that's not. But I'll take it down. And if you want the stats recalled, uh, are given to you but, but let's go to you first John. I think Steve took first pass gut reaction to this.

John Richardson: That surprises me that one. I'm uh, concerned is the wrong word but surprised that prospecting is so low. I'm trying to justify it but I'm going to, I'm going to take square shouldered approach and maybe question why it's that rather than try and justify why it might be. I think that shows that there's a journey for AES to go on to get their head into prospecting and just being told to do it isn't the answer. You know, if I get an AE come to me and I just say well you need a full pipeline so pick up the phone. What are you going to do? Go prospect. If they're not ready to hear that, maybe I'll be. I don't know. I'm trying to think through that conversation. There's people that are ready to hear that cold hard truth that that is the truth. I think we can both and all of us would nod in agreement that you know, no matter what your job role says, if you have a responsibility to hit a M number, uh, it's your job to fill that pipeline. Whoever else is there to help you fill it. It's your job to make sure that it's full. And so if that involves prospecting then great, go and do it. You know it should involve prospecting but I think, I think that is surprising. I think it probably, it's probably because people might come and not ask about it. They'll beat around the bush and ask questions about things that they're comfortable being told to do rather than knowing that if I say my pipeline's empty the coach is going to tell me to pick up the phone.

Steve Myers: I'm reasonably comfortable with that. Uh, as a percentage. I mean there's lots of debate about whether AE should be Prospecting, you know, and I think there's a lot of AES that hide behind it and say, oh, no, I'm haven't got time. I'm too skilled, too important, too highly paid. Which, of course is just, uh, an excuse. So, uh, you know, if you haven't got the pipeline, then you absolutely need to go and fill it. That's your responsibility as an ae. Uh, that's. I think we can all agree on that. But nobody gets paid for booking a meeting, right? We get paid when we bring a deal over the line. So the fact that there's a large percentage of deals focused on pipeline right in. And pipeline doesn't just mean putting stuff in the top of the funnel. It means moving stuff through the funnel, and it means having it exit the funnel without huge discounting. Right? That's healthy, I think, you know, we've got just over half talking about bringing new stuff into the top of the funnel, and then, you know, let's work it through. So I think, you know, as long as we're looking at velocity, as long as we're looking at stuff coming out of the funnel, how quickly it moves through the funnel, and looking at stuff that comes into the top of the funnel, then, yeah, I think that's a reasonably healthy percentage from my point of view and certainly reflects, you know, my own personal experience. Right? Because, you know, she's, you know, it's this. This conversation is now super interesting because, you know, you guys, we're talking about got, you know, 5,000 coaching conversations from 60, 80 coaches in however many countries, right? I've just got my own personal experience, right? But over the 20 years I've been doing it, probably about half talk about prospecting, and the majority talk about, okay, now I've got stuff in the funnel, I've got to close the damn thing, right? So, yeah, I'm comfortable with that percentage.

John Richardson: I think that's fair. And I think to go back to some of my justifying that I didn't share before, I think you've probably got a good portion of SDR calls that will be about how do I make sure that my meetings sit. Right. Some of the stuff that is less about how do I make the right cold call or say the right thing on the phone or objection, handle while prospecting. But a more, I don't want to say administrative, because it's definitely not making sure your meetings sit, making sure that you're qualifying effectively are all really important things that you could talk about as an SDR that are fundamental to your role and so it's probably not 100% of SDR coaching calls that talk about prospecting. And so that was kind of my thought is actually, is it closer maybe to 40% of those prospecting based conversations are SDR ones? And a nice 15% are, uh, A's that are trying to fill that funnel themselves or take a responsibility for filling it themselves, which definitely makes me more comfortable with that number. From an overall perspective.

Steve Myers: It's about leadership skills, it's about culture, it's about, you know, ultimately we're all here to bring deals over the line. And that involves both finding people to talk to and converting those opportunities.

John Richardson: I have a friend that should be an, ah, amazing statement in itself, but I have a friend who says there's no such thing as bad weather, only different. And it kind of aligns that same thing that if you find yourself inappropriately prepared for the weather, it's not the weather's fault that you've not prepared for it.

Steve Myers: Yeah, it's that same line. I said there's nothing. There's bad weather, only bad clothes.

John Richardson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Myers: So it's. You got to have both. You got to have both.

Oli Whitfield: Just before I move us on, guys, the one I think I'd like to call your attention to is the 67% of calls discuss pipeline. Um, maybe I'll start with Steve, but just briefly before I move this on. Anyway, do you feel that's about right? So if I said 67, what's the rest made up of? Would I expect that much to be about mindset and, or other things that are along the same lines or. Or less specifically and tactically about today's work or tomorrow's deal, does that feel high, low, Roughly on track? I appreciate you may have said that, but, uh, it can be about.

Steve Myers: It can be about pipeline and mindset, right? So with any, you know, sales conversation. Sales discussion, you know, you look at it through. It's like three legs of a tripod. You know, one of them is a tactical, technical fix. What is the right, what is the optimum thing to do or say in any given situation? But the other thing is about if you're not in the right mindset to be able to deploy that technique, then fixing the technique doesn't change anything, does it? You know, just because you know the right way to make a cold call, if you've got a high need for approval, or you've got the children should be seen but not heard script going on in your head, then knowing a better way to make a cold call doesn't change anything because you weren't making cold calls before, you're not making cold calls now. You didn't have. You couldn't get access to power before because, um, you believed that you weren't worthy. You didn't have equal business stature. I can tell you how to do it technically, but if you still got the scripting going on, then that's not going to change anything. And then the third leg of the tripod is what actually happens on the ground and with what frequency. So, you know, activity, mindset, and technique are all the three. And if you don't have the behavior, of course, you don't know whether or not somebody's got a mindset problem or a technical problem. Right. If you don't know that if you haven't got the data. So, yeah, well, that's. That 67% is, you know, made up of, of things around how do I advance my career? Uh, or, you know, how do I deal with, how do I differentiate myself in a crowded marketplace? Or what do I do if I'm the most expensive and my competition's cheaper and all those kinds of tactical things that we get. But it's always important to address.

John Richardson: I'd, uh, add to that that just because it's not talking about pipeline doesn't mean it's not talking about pipeline. There are lots of topics that significantly impact generating or executing on pipeline that are e far more niche that they won't have shown up in that statistic. I've got a meeting tomorrow. I need to talk about how to prepare for that meeting, what to say in that meeting, how to handle that, how to progress that, etc. Does. I had a meeting yesterday. This happened to my deal. What on earth has gone wrong? Right. Everything in between on that, alongside all those examples you gave.

Steve Myers: And so almost every question is about conversation is about Pipeline in that sense, isn't it? Um, you know, objection. Handling is about pipeline. Getting ghosted is about pipeline. Putting prospecting is about pipeline. Almost everything that we talk about has its roots in how do I find a new opportunity or how do I advance it through the funnel to closure or disqualification.

John Richardson: And that doesn't even touch on, um, you know, we've already seen that there's a large number of calls that talk about interpersonal, you know, organization dynamics, team dynamics. So the whole how do I work more effectively with my sdr or how do I work more effectively with my ae or my manager's making it really difficult for me to do the things that I want to do? I'm being asked to go into meetings that aren't helpful to me to sell all examples of topics that are really valuable to work through a coach with that. Absolutely. Impact pipeline. But the word pipeline would just.

Steve Myers: Not directly.

John Richardson: Yeah, yeah, would not even touch that call. Um, as well as some calls that will be completely. I feel really stressed. I feel like I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm struggling. That are, again, extremely valuable in those situations. So I don't think we can infer that 33% of calls don't impact pipeline. I think that would be the wrong inference to make there.

Oli Whitfield: Our, uh, fourth out of five, 41% of calls mention closing. And if we remember, 98% discussed the decision process, 50% roughly. Ies. Little bit of, uh, a bit of a disparity there. What do you guys think? Is that a pass to Mr. Myers there from John? It was.

Steve Myers: This is a really interesting one. And so certainly, you know, in, in relation to the philosophy that, that I teach, which is that salespeople have got no business closing, you know, what are you going to do? You know, Benjamin Franklin, alternative clothes, puppy dog clothes. I mean, give me a break. These things went out in the 1980s, right? Yeah. I mean, again, you know, it's pipeline conversation. Right. It's got. I've got a deal at the. I've got a deal. They've told me I did a great presentation. They're really interested, they're really excited. And if I just call them in a couple of weeks, they'll give me a decision. And when I call them in a couple of weeks, they didn't hear. Right. So, you know, it's very common. I get that a lot. Right. But closing again, you know, should happen at the beginning, not at the end. So if you get it right, then you have, if you do it at the beginning, you have less reliance on, on pulling some daft move, you know, from some, some, you know, book by John Fenton in, In, you know, in 1970, something. What's your thoughts, John?

John Richardson: Yeah, well, I'm laughing because half of these techniques I've never even heard of, which shows how out of date they are because I'm not a spring chicken. I might be younger than some, but, um, I'm not fresh off the boat, as they say. Um, and so, yeah, I think we are looking at calls across a cross section of the funnel. And so for a funnel to be a funnel, there should be a smaller number that are at, ah, closing stage than our apps.

Steve Myers: Yes, there will be pipeline generation.

John Richardson: And so I'm, if anything, I'm surprised it's as high as 41%. And maybe that's people that are in the crash. And, uh, how do I close this?

Steve Myers: How do I close? How do I close? How do I close? How do I close exactly when the

John Richardson: problem was on the approach. If I look at it in the coldest light I can, I think that's indicative that a lot of sessions, people are using, or at least referencing using the session and talking about in part of the session and saving themselves when they're maybe too late in the deal cycle. I think that's maybe a strong inference,

Steve Myers: but I think it's important to also discuss what we mean by closing. Right. Because a lot of conversations around closing don't necessarily mean closing for a signature. They mean closing for the next step. Right. So we're closing the first 30 seconds, right. For the next three to five minutes, and the next three to five minutes, we're closing for 15 minutes and then for an hour and then for a proof of concept and then a proposal, then a negotiation, then. Then a signature. So a lot of times, you know, we should be having conversations about closing throughout the process.

John Richardson: That was going to be my other, other thought around this is the closing in and of itself as a competency is probably the least important one. If you do everything else right in the sales process, whereas agreeing next steps or like gaining commitment.

Steve Myers: Well, that, that, that again, is, you know, that's a close.

John Richardson: Well, exactly, yeah.

Steve Myers: If I gain commitment, we're talking about euphemisms and semantics. Right. But if I gain your agreement to, to the next step. Right. I've closed you for the next step. Right, yeah. And, but, but isn't that, isn't that a much more modern way of looking at it to say you and I have collaboratively agreed what's going to happen next, rather than me as the machismo, you know, persuasive salesperson, I've closed you for the next step.

John Richardson: I think that would be like, if we were to rerun the analysis, I think gaining commitment as like a, as the euphemism, as the semantic would be a far more interesting. And that I would expect a much higher number.

Steve Myers: Right.

John Richardson: I'd. I'd expect almost every coaching conversation to involve.

Steve Myers: And I'm wondering actually whether that's at the root actually of that number or that there's a lot of, you know, more modern. And, uh, certainly again, you know, we would like to think that the respondees are by definition, you know, in some Way sophisticated and elite because they are, after all my sales coach clients. So we'll credit them with, uh, you know, some, some taste and, and some knowledge of what they were doing. Right. So yeah, maybe actually just that whole term around closing, I think people like, uh, like Neil would say, um, you know, gives her the ick, right? Is it not the modern. Isn't that what you kids say?

Oli Whitfield: Ollie delivered like a pro. Mr. Myers, can I get that one more time just for the recording?

Steve Myers: So it gives you the itch. Closing certainly, you know, when I hear it, it certainly gives me the ick. Right. So yeah, there has no place. Right. It's much more about collaboratively co building decisions.

Oli Whitfield: Speaking of closing, I will move us on to our last one, guys. Number five, mindset is nearly invisible. Only mentioned 1% of the time on calls. I'm shocked. It's so low confidence, however, mentioned in 34 times the amount of calls. Not surprised by that. 43% of calls. Mix, uh, the topics of skill and mindset together. A bit of a blur there. So that's more common. Confidence, pretty common. But mindset, particularly not at all common. Who wants to go first? Uh, who's shocked?

John Richardson: Well, I'm not shocked. And I'll tell you for why I think that's clear. The clearest example of like people coming to coaching sessions not with their own diagnosis or with a misdiagnosis. Having a mindset issue is a label for somebody that's come to you with a mindset issue. If I've got a mindset issue, what will happen is I'll come to my coaching session and I'll say, I just don't know what to say when I follow up. And Steve will say, well, what do you mean? I'll say, well, at the end of the call, I'm hoping that they're gonna do the right things and that they'll be interested. And then I don't know what to say when I chase them. And Steve will say, well, hang on, let's take a big step back. How do you feel about your prospects? And I'll say, oh, they're big, scary, important, important people that I can't speak to. And Steve's thinking, John's got a mindset issue because he sees his prospects as not people and as scary things that he can't speak to. Right? Like that's, that's a mindset issue. Or I'll come to the coaching call and say, I just don't know what to do, I don't know where to go next. And Steve will think John's having a bit of a lack of confidence, maybe a bit of burnout, maybe a bit of whatever. And so I don't think people come and say, I'm just struggling with my mindset. Maybe, maybe, maybe 1% of the time they do. But the rest of the time it's a diagnosis for uh, one of those other problems that they're sharing, another symptom that they're sharing. And so that's not surprising for me. But I think the other two stats are the really fascinating ones.

Steve Myers: So I think this is one of the greatest impacts that we can have as coaches is working on mindset. Right? You don't need a coach to learn a great way to make a cold call. Talk to power. This is about eliminating self limiting beliefs. How do you eliminate self limiting beliefs? Because you can't tell people what to believe and expect them to believe something different. This is the biggest thing that winds me up. Motivational speakers, right? If, uh, just believe, just believe in yourself and that's it. Uh, if only you could believe that, you know, your product had a better product market fit. So the way, the only way in which you can change somebody's belief system is by looking at what caused them to have their belief system in the first place, which is experiences. So you have to give them new experience. You have to work on the behavior side, you have to work on the activity side. You have to be able to take people out of their comfort zone. You have to be able to take them out of their comfort zone sustainably when every fiber of their being is saying, I want to retreat back into my comfort zone. Because the human beings, what does it take to sustain somebody outside of their comfort zone? So they take new behaviors, so they get new results on which they form new opinions and therefore expand their belief system. It takes supportive coaching. So I am not surprised that that number is very low because I think a lot of people, to John's point, are not aware that what they've got is a mindset issue. And this comes back to my point. You know, the biggest question that I get asked is, do you have any tips and tricks for how do I, I do X? And what they're looking for is a technical fix. When a technical fix doesn't change a goddamn thing unless you can fix the self limiting belief. But yes, the number's low because people don't say, oh, I've got a mindset problem. They say, give me some tips and tricks.

John Richardson: I remember speaking to a coach once who said that he Doesn't. He doesn't really like to deal with mindset challenges. And then I listened to one of their coaching calls where he talked to somebody about setting a routine, been building positive habits, implementing, like, tactical activities that are just the playbook for strengthening your mindset and strengthening kind of an elite mindset. And what he meant was he's not very good if somebody's sad. And that's fair. Right? I think if that coach was listening today, they'd. They'd acknowledge that. But I think. I think sometimes we think of mindset as being the. If someone's got a mindset issue, maybe we don't really want to help them. Like, maybe. Maybe in. In sales, we're a little bit behind the curve in recognizing things like mental health are important. But actually, mindset is everything about the way that you talk, the way that you ask questions. I literally last week overcame a mindset hurdle because I realized that I had discomfort asking some questions about money. Not because I'm uncomfortable asking questions or because I've got a need for be like to be liked, but because I thought it was against the rules.

Steve Myers: I don't care about the rules, but

John Richardson: I just thought it was against them.

Steve Myers: Them.

John Richardson: And so I would not ask certain questions because I think it's against the rules to ask them, not because I'm worried someone will think I'm a rule breaker, just because it's not. It's not playing by the rules. And so it's.

Steve Myers: It's.

John Richardson: Everything about how we. How we execute as salespeople is our mindset. It's. It's what we believe and how we think that is the game.

Steve Myers: So. So one of the things that. That. That I develop in. In. In my coaches is if they don't have it, is how do we create an environment of equal business stature? How do we create an environment where sellers were not seen as the junior party in the negotiation? And then if you can do that, then you can deploy techniques and then you can ask questions. And so. So mindset is at the heart of. Of. Of everything. And it's very different, I think, to talking to people about mental health. And this is, how do I create the mindset of equal business stature? How do I create the mindset of. Of. Of mutual trust? How do I create the mindset that my purpose is to solve problems, not to sell stuff? And so I think there's a different, different area of mindset to. To mental health.

John Richardson: I would completely agree, but I think. I think it's all. It's all about how we think and feel.

Oli Whitfield: Right.

Steve Myers: Completely agree.

John Richardson: How we think and feel is, is everything about it. The expertise we have as salespeople is not about how much we know the answers to questions, but our expertise is surely around how we ask questions. And the way we ask questions is, is fundamentally driven by our belief systems around us and the people we're speaking to. And so I would agree with his points around expertise and routine that it is about building the expertise to know that you're allowed to ask any question you want and that as a salesperson your job is to ask really difficult questions. And the routine is making it a habit to be curious rather than an effort to be curious all the time.

Steve Myers: Time. The reality is you can tell somebody, it's allowed, but if they've got a self limiting belief about asking it, they're not going to ask it. What you have to do is you have to create a coaching environment that takes them out of their comfort zone, um, supports them there, ah, whilst they act in a manner which is inconsistent with their current belief system. So then it's a question of routine. That's what expands the, the belief system. That's why I call it a tripod. Right. You know, you need all three levels. Thanks.

Tom Boston: Thanks for listening. There's more where that came from, so don't forget to like and subscribe. Our mission at my sales coach is to help revenue leaders survive sales by building elite sales teams, fixing their win rates, lifting quarter attainment and coaching their teams better. Go and check out our website@uh, mysalescoach.com to find out how we're supporting leaders like you right now.