Episode 6: How can organizations keep being inclusive when the idea of inclusion is being challenged?

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to this episode of Steps to Change, the podcast where we explore learning and development topics, organizational behavior, change strategies and practical ways to inspire people to act differently. On this episode we're discussing the question, how do you effectively create an inclusive culture when inclusion is a bad word? At the moment, joining us on this episode is Michael Streffery, an award winning leader with over 20 years of experience driving diversity, equity, inclusion and and organizational culture transformation. He is a two time recipient of the Oncon Top 50 DEI Professionals Icon Award in 2024 and 2025, both for recognizing his impact and innovation in building inclusive workplaces. Michael, it's an honor to have you on the show today. How are you doing?

Speaker B: I'm awesome. Happy Friday. How are you?

Speaker A: I am too. Happy Friday to you. Um, and for the listeners out there who don't know us, uh, know you. Michael, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, I originally, uh, I've been doing this work for over 20 years. I was at Coca Cola headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia doing employee engagement, employee wellness programming and they started to roll out something called employee resource groups. And I was like, what, what is this? I wish I knew about this. In the, you know, 80s 90s when I was in college trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and I was sold. I actually, um, grew up in a military family and I was given a Choice in the 90s, either join the military and change who you are or get out. And I wasn't going to go back in the closet. So I was homeless, I slept in my car, I worked six jobs, paid my way through undergrad at Purdue, grad school at University of Illinois, and growing up, hopefully your favorite gay, chubby Mexican in Indiana was a struggle. Um, so when I saw diversity, equity, inclusion work starting to evolve and come out at Coca Cola and beyond, it was something I needed to do for the rest of my life. My most recent position, I was the head of DEI and philanthropy and before then Ubisoft, which makes amazing, uh, video games like Assassin's Creed, Just Dance, Far Cry and then before them, Anthem, which is now called Elevance, a large health insurance company here in the United States. Uh, Sutter Health, the ymca, uh, and I guess a fun fact is back in the, uh, early 2000s, I used to dance for Disney.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you've literally done it all, Michael. That is amazing. Um, and you know what I'd love to hear from them that uh, your, your background and thank you for sharing that, is that, you know, this is A lifelong mission for you. Right. This isn't, you know, something that you just woke up one day and said, I'm going to do this. It actually has a connection to who you are as a person, which is, you know, always wonderful to hear. Recently we had a chance to support, uh, a venture that you spearheaded, a series of webinars kind of really reflecting on the state of DEI at the moment in organizations and, you know, the challenges the sector is facing at the moment. We all know it's under attack, so just, yeah, give us a little bit of a high level of what you were exploring in that webinar series because, um, we're probably going to reference back to that as we go through our conversation today.

Speaker B: Yeah, actually I am very proud to say this year I started a support group. It's called DEI Professionals in Transition Support Group, fortunately, which is exciting. We have over 450 members. But it's also terrifying and disappointing that there's that many unemployed DEI professionals. So back five years ago, every company was touting how important important DEI was and every executive was saying how they're a value based leader and this is crucial for their success. And things have really flipped the script this year. If you were to look at LinkedIn today, right now you'd see probably less than 10 Director VP level DEI roles around the world. So that pendulum is swinging and I'm hoping it's going to swing back. But our group put together this wonderful webinar series that you just mentioned. And the focus was to really put a survey out and say, what's changed? What's shifted? How did DEI become weapon? Uh, what caused us to get to this point? Knowing what we know now, what could we have done differently and what should we do differently in the future for DEI to continue to thrive and survive in the workplace? So the series was four parts. Uh, the first webinar was all about the survey results. And we went through the survey results and looked at consistencies and what we agreed with and disagreed with. The second one was focused on employee resource groups. Uh, the third one was focused on the talent life cycles. So everything from talent attraction to talent development, succession planning, compensation, pay equity, all that wonderfulness. And then the fourth one was focused on business innovation and business impact, which has been a struggle and a challenge for DEI because a lot of times DEI falls under human resources and their influence on business impact is not as great as other departments.

Speaker A: And Michael, is there anything that's come out of running the webinar series as a result of, you know, people's engagement with them and the things you were discussing.

Speaker B: Yeah, we got a lot of great feedback, a lot of participation. But two things I'm really excited and proud of. Bloomberg, uh, News reached out, um, which was a great outcome. They wanted to write a series of articles around DE and I. The second one too, we have a PhD student in Florida, uh, who is taking the survey results and helping us to create a report and turning a research project into it. But it's kind of neat. When you plant some seeds, what grows?

Speaker A: I think one of the things that we're finding in our conversation with clients that we partner with in this space is, um, they're still asking us a lot about, you know, the inclusion piece. So, you know, uh, is inclusion a bad word at the moment or is that just hype? And, you know, what are you finding based on, you know, the state of things at the moment when we talk about inclusion?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the big things we explored while having these conversations through the webinar series was, um, how did this all become weaponized? And it was, it was, the backlash was really highlighted because of politicization, I think, to a point. I've been in so many conferences, webinars, seminars this year talking about what do we call it now? If we can't call it diversity, equity, inclusion, what could we call it? And my response has been consistent among all the conversations. It doesn't matter. We could call it purple bees flying in the sky. And those who disagree with really creating a culture of belonging for everyone and then identifying gaps and opportunities for those that are most disenfranchised or marginalized. If people are against that, they're going to attack it and they're going to find ways to communicate and market against it. But inclusion to me is creating opportunity for everyone to have self dignity and feel like that they can practice honesty, caring, respect and responsibility. And in a safe space, um, it's finding people's values, value and worth and helping them to see that into themselves. And when we have a space where people feel really included, that's where innovation thrives. That's where change happens. That's where the magic really comes together to make teams do amazing things.

Speaker A: So one of the important phrases you said is inclusion for all. Uh, absolutely. And I think one of the challenges that we need to work to sort of address, uh, head on, but also make really clear to everyone in organizations is that the DEI efforts and inclusion were for everybody, actually. Right. It was designed for including everyone. But along the way there had been a growing Concern that it was only for marginalized individuals. Right. That it wasn't for everybody within the organization. So it really feels like it's that, oh, okay. It's that bit of recalibration from the sector to go, oh, okay, uh, you're hearing one thing when we say inclusion, but actually mea culpa. Let's do some work to try and make sure everybody feels like it's working for all people. Is that a fair assessment in your view, Michael?

Speaker B: I think it's a super fair assessment. And I think if we really look in the mirror as diversity professionals, again, where did we go, right? Where did we go wrong? What should we do differently? And according to the survey, we saw a huge over and emphasis on certain groups, uh, based off of the comments from the participants in the survey. So some groups m, uh, the Asian community, Jewish community, men, were feeling alienated and not included. And I think if I were to criticize some of my colleagues, don't attack me. But if I were to criticize, I could say, wow, some of the trainings that I saw out there in DE and I were not, uh, conducive to a truly inclusive space. Like I've seen allyship trainings, for example, where we're promoting voting allyship. And I literally saw in one allyship training that allies were basically told to sit down, shut up, and raise the voices of those who are most marginalized. And I'm not sure that was the best tactic to help people feel like that they can be part of helping those who are most hurting in the world. I think a big also misstep that I've noticed and identified as somebody who's been doing this for over 20 years. There are a lot of organizations that tokenize certain ethnic minorities or gender minorities within their company. You might have no background in diversity, equity, inclusion, but now you're in charge of it. Figure it out. Figure it out.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess, you know, just reflecting on, on the point you raised there. So in, you know, in your, in your experience over your years of working in this space, um, how does that notion of hiring for a specific demographic, you know, how did we, how did we get there in all of the. That was being done? Because as you say, it's, you know, it's illegal to hire that way, and we shouldn't be hiring that way. Right. We should be hiring on, you know, the whole spectrum of, you know, experience on background on all of those things. But, you know, how do you think some companies got to the point with all the work that was being done with DEI to feel so blatantly direct in that way.

Speaker B: Some leaders, executive leaders, know how to say the right things. And we saw that big time in 2020 and 2021. You know, they were saying the right things. But when it came into practice, a lot efforts were performative. And I think a lot of the leaders leading the work were trying to replicate things that they saw or heard

Speaker A: or researched just to try and, you know, surmise this as we move into the next part. You know, I think, of course there's a lot of, um, over indexing, as we've talked about, that maybe happen within the DEI space. Right? Positive intention, but maybe, you know, not the impact we were hoping for. But, you know, in the space of inclusion, taking it back to the kind of core conversation we're having now, uh, in this space, um, you know, that is still a thing that I think a lot of people are very happy to lean into. They really want inclusive workforces. They really understand the value of it. You know, you want as many people to want to come work for your company as possible. You want the best talent. So, you know, how do we, you know, in your experience and in your view, uh, Michael, how do we keep amplifying the inclusion and giving that the positive energy that it needs? Um, in this, you know, in this challenging time, the things that it's facing at the moment, we need to move

Speaker B: beyond the performative stuff and get into the real measurement. I'm a, I'm a total data geek here, so I watch Excel how to Excel videos for fun. Uh, but I really think we need to connect better into business impact okrs and things that are measurable within the organizations and how we can tie DEI efforts into that. Right? So, um, I think as we are connected into the company's dashboard systems and how, uh, what the HR teams and what the product and services teams are identifying to be important, we need to be integrated into all of that.

Speaker A: And I think one of the things about the data, the data is really important, right? You can look at things like who's, um, applying for your organization, who's staying, who's leaving, right? What are the pulse surveys telling us about how people feel about being in the organization? And I think that is super helpful. And then one of the things that we're really passionate about at Steps is going, okay, so the data is telling us this. What are the behaviors that are showing up that make that data real, right? Because you can have all the pie charts you want and all that data I align with your Data geekisms there, Michael? Um, I agree, I'm similar. But actually, you know, until you can go in and help not only your, your leadership team or your managers or just your everyday individual contributors understand the story of that data and how it's impacting people as human beings, then, then I think for us at steps using that and that drama based approach to really bring that to life, we feel like that's the magic sauce to really help that inclusion come to life in the most effective way.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can tell a lot about a culture by the amount of channels that um, they provide their employees as well as their customers and consumers to provide feedback and how seriously they take that information. So one of my favorite things to do, for example, is take the employee engagement surveys. A lot of companies call them the pulse surveys. In there there's a series of questions that should connect to the company's values as well as some of the objectives that they identify as crucial for their success. And so a lot of times, uh, my last few companies I've gone into those surveys and said, why are we even ask this question? Is this question actionable? If your employees were to rate low in this, what would that tell you? And then what would the levers be that you would want to pull to make the change happen? And is it clear if they rate this high or low, who deserves accountability for that or credit for that?

Speaker A: Um, one of the things collusion can really face as a barrier to success is if you have leadership that sees that data and goes, well, that's not a key priority. Right now we need to focus on X, Y or Z. Right. So how do you overcome some of those challenges that you might have faced um, in your 20 some odd years of doing this? Not looking for specific organizations, just thematically here, how

Speaker B: as the role as the head of DEI or Chief Diversity Officer, it's challenging. If you go, I mean I actually have uh, for the last five years thousands of role descriptions saved of how the job descriptions were writt for chief diversity officers. And a lot of them mention the ability to influence others because like it's top qualification that to me clearly says you're not setting this person up to hold people accountable, to drive change, to be a feedback loop. And I think um, if, if someone in this role is to be successful, they need that seat at the table. They need to have the ears of the influential people who can make change happen and they need to be able to hold people account through metrics and data. So if recommendations are provided and not followed, it needs to be documented and it needs to be tracked to say, okay, well, let's see if there's not a change in the next one or two quarters. And if not, we need to circle this back. We're putting it on the calendar now.

Speaker A: I think all of that makes absolute clarity of sense. And then taking that question and putting it into the world we operate in nowadays for those people who were in organizations where they've gone, well, we're not going to really talk about any of this at the moment. We're going to, you know, we're going to push it back. You know, the funding's gone. How in your mind, Michael, can they start, can they still influence inclusion and create that space when they're, quote, unquote, not allowed to do it? Right? If that's the kind of worst case

Speaker B: scenario, Yeah, I think that's a really good question, uh, because some of the advice I've been giving, uh, others, um, in my support group, uh, like I said, there's a lot of people who kind of lean it into this. They either came from marketing or communications or HR operations or talent attraction and acquisition or talent development. And my recommendation to them is if you have the ability right now to transition back into the space that you came from, you should. Because at the end of the day, the way the DEI programs are set up at most companies is you will have much more opportunity to influence positive change for everyone, not just the marginalized groups, for everyone back in those spaces. Because back in those spaces, in talent attraction, sourcing, recruiting, hiring, or in talent development, professional development, performance review, management, all that, you'll have the ability to make sure things are transparent, fair and equitable for everyone. And so if you really believe in diversity and inclusion, and you really believe in creating a psychologically safe space where everyone can feel belonging, then I'd strongly recommend can leverage and influence those past experiences in those spaces.

Speaker A: I think that would align with a lot of how we talk about the work in steps, programming. When we talk about creating great cultures or great places to work or, um, those inclusive spaces, is that actually no matter where you sit in an organization, yes, the leadership have cast the largest shadow and they can have the biggest influence to make it all, you know, uh, become business as usual within organizations. But don't discredit or discount your ability, whatever role you sit in, to kind of lead with inclusion in every little way that you can. It doesn't always have to be big strategic things. It can actually just be how you're talking with someone on a daily basis.

Speaker B: I Love how you took it to that personal level. Every, everyone from individual contributor to CEO has a space to lead inclusively. Middle managers probably have it the toughest because they're trying to represent their employees while also trying to push change upward and above through the powerful. And I think, um, middle managers, for example, there's simple things that you can do to drive inclusion, have intentional agendas that drive inclusive behaviors. When you're meeting with your teams in your one on ones or in your group settings, how are you recognizing people? How are you rewarding people? Are you providing a space for people for you to ask them, what can I do better as your leader? What can I change? Are you feeling heard? Are you feeling supported? Am I, uh, helping in your professional growth and opportunity? I think those include, this is my challenge with uh, dei. And uh, a lot of people say, well, we need to do diversity training. Well, diversity training should be interwoven into all training. We shouldn't have separate diversity trainings. If we're talking about leadership training, that is DEI training, it's interwoven into all of that. So all the things that I, the examples I just shared, that should be woven into all the training of how we're gearing, um, uh, people, leaders to lead people effectively with authenticity and passion.

Speaker A: Okay, so we've got some good strategies. We've discussed the challenges that inclusion is facing, uh, more broadly within organizations. Um, I want to get our crystal balls out here now, uh, if we can, Michael, and start to look in the future, two, five years time, whatever have you, in your opinion, uh, what does the future of inclusion look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the pendulum was shoved this year. And when there's such a large amount of effort and energy pushing it in one direction, it's inevitable to swing back even harder back. And so companies that made large claims five years ago and executives especially, who were the ones that made those large claims last year, I, um, think they really need to stick to the words, their behaviors need to match the words that came out of their mouth. Um, and so this is a tie in to ensure that you're hiring qualified diversity, uh, professionals who have experience doing this work and to ensure that when you are doing these efforts that they're um, going to drive the culture that your company deserves. And so you can't be an organization or a company that says, hey, we're value based leaders who believe in people first and then do layoffs before the holidays. Right? And so too many times our actions haven't matched our words. And so, um, when that pendulum does swing back, there's going to be a huge need for well, uh, run diversity equity inclusion programs, employee resource group programs, ensuring that all of the efforts are not just HR based or performative through comms and marketing, but are integrated into the business. So how is DEI having a seat at the table to identify gaps and opportunities to drive business innovation through product and services or to help expand customer consumer bases for the organization?

Speaker A: Uh, there's a couple of things I want to pick your brain about in terms of the future here. The first one is, you know, what about the AI of it? All right. You know, AI is finding its way into all aspects of business. Uh, and it is the hot topic right now. What do you think how AI is going to um, either support, help or get in the way? I mean it's sticking around but how is it going to get involved with inclusion work in the future?

Speaker B: I think there's a couple messages I would say here. AI is happening, so if you're not going to get on that train, you're going to miss out. Now with that said, we need to avoid the instinct people have to just jump forward blindly without knowing what the heck they're doing. We have talent development teams trying to create content and they really don't personally understand what it is ah, themselves and they're responsible for now teaching their employees of what it's going, what's going on. And I think there is a lot of um, as with any new technological advancement there's a lot of room for bias in there. And I think that's what DEI does well is we make people look at the gaps, look at the spaces for improvement, look at where people or groups or systems or processes are at risk and say whoa, slow down here before uh, we make some major mistakes that we're going to regret. And so I know when people are excited and they're sprinting forward, they don't want to be held back. But sometimes it's necessary because you could save a lot of time if you do take a moment. For example, uh, some companies I know or using two or three different systems, I would strongly recommend to those leaders like sit back and decide which system you're going to use because now you have all these man hours going in, working on, creating trainings, creating uh, guides, creating reports, creating different, different pathways of work hours, thousands of hours of work that might just be wasted because there was no unifying strategy or direction. Right. And so I ah, think it's crucial for people to um, you know, it's exciting in the, and Understand wanting the need to be first. But how are we doing this in a way that keeps people safe and keeps the organization, um, efficient?

Speaker A: And then I guess before we start to round this down, and I am going to ask you, Michael, any sort of final words of wisdom? Um, so I'll get you thinking about that now. But, um, I was also just curious. How do people that are still working on inclusion and organizations, um, facing all these headwinds, Any advice for them in terms of ways to challenge that fatigue that a lot of people feel in this space at the moment? Um, a lot of clients are saying, we've done all this, we've talked about it. We don't need to do this right now. Our organization's tired of that. Um, what do you think to that concept, Michael?

Speaker B: Well, I have a lot of thoughts. I'll say. I used to teach exercise classes and dance classes. Um, and so I remember going around and inviting people to come take my class. And once in a while I get a lady on the treadmill saying, oh, I tried Zumba. I didn't like dance. I don't want to, and that's not my thing. And just because you tried one person's class doesn't mean that was the right class. Doesn't mean it was well instructed, doesn't mean. Right. And so I think that's a big challenge we're seeing with companies too, is we tried resource groups or we tried DE and I, uh. Yeah, but did you do it with a qualified professional? Did you do it right? And so I think if you tried something and it didn't work, doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do. Maybe it just wasn't executed well. Right. I think also a lot of companies went from zero to a thousand. Like, you know, I mean, just. I grew up in Indiana, where white representation was in, um, heterosexual families, was, like, highly portrayed in news media, entertainment.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And then we went from that to. And like, now everything has the gay character, the black character, the Asian. And so growing up in the Midwest, I could really see and understand the cultural shock that people would have because I saw that coming. I'm like, oh, gosh, this is not going to be good. Uh, and I could understand the fatigue that people are having, um, uh, because it wasn't done, um, uh, it was done disingenuously. Right. And it was done with an agenda. And I think when we are driving diversity, equity, inclusion, it needs to be real. It needs to come from real stories and human experiences. And I think that's part of the change that we need to do. Um, I think not to badmouth again comms and marketing people too much. They're wonderful people who are well intentioned but a lot of well intended things had horrible consequences. And so when we need to make sure when we're doing things with authenticity that we're telling people's stories and not uh, manipulating things to fit a narrative, uh, that is, and um, easy for what we're trying to do with our company. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. That's really insightful Michael, and well said. And I guess um, leads me to my last question. Any final words of wisdom based on the things that we've been discussing today that you'd like to leave the listeners with?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think self dignity in the workplace is crucial. I think people need to know and understand how they're respected, how their work brings value to themselves, how that, that uh, shapes how they are seeing how they see themselves, how their family sees them. Um, and I think as we're transitioning to AI, as we're evolving into innovation and we're laying off more and more people, I think we're starting to lose the humanity of it. And that's going to have big real consequences. That diversity, equity, inclusion is going to be necessary to help pick up the pieces from some of the decisions that are being made right now now. So we cannot have a blended record breaking shareholder profits while having a massive unprecedented unemployment crisis. That is not a recipe for success. And so uh, a lot of companies over the last five years said that they were focused on value based leadership and that they were leaning into their values. I would challenge the executive leaders to really sit back and take that seriously and invest in that space and have consistent actions that follow the words, uh, and the behaviors that portray the words that were coming out of our mouths. So if you really believe in your employees, how are you showing it? How are you demonstrating it? If your executive leaders really believe in people first, how are you showing it? How are you demonstrating it? Um, um, you know, people are not afraid of change. They're afraid of what they think they're going to lose. And so how are we identifying people's fears and helping them put themselves at ease? And I think uh, DEI leaders can be a huge um, moderator to getting real feedback that is actionable and helpful and valuable. And I can really think and hope that companies will see and continue to see the value and not just keep their programs, but help grow, thrive and evolve.

Speaker A: Well that is uh, some very wise words of wisdom there Michael. Thank you so much. And that's about all the time we have left for this episode. Uh, thank you, Michael, for joining us. It's been a really engaging and thought provoking discussion. Uh, Michael, uh, where can the listeners find you? Um, if they want to get in touch with you, where's the best way to reach out?

Speaker B: Oh, I love it. Uh, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I also have a portfolio website. You can go to www.michaelstreffri.com and I'd love to connect with you.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Check all those places out, listeners. And thank you, listeners, for joining us on this episode. If you'd like to know more about steps and steps to change, make sure to visit our website. Find us on LinkedIn. Uh, sign up to our newsletter. All those links will be available in the show Notes. If you're interested in how steps could partner with you or your organization to support your needs, send us an email or fill out the form online at www.is there a subject area you'd like to hear us explore? If so, reach out to us via email or on our socials and let us know. As always, thank you to our production team. We couldn't do this without you. I am your host, Alan Liedtke, and we look forward to you joining in on our next episode. Until next time, thank you. And remember, you too can see it, own it, change it, and live it.