Know Before They Go: Knowledge Transfer as an AEC Marketing Strategy

Speaker A: Sort of an intro. We're not sure if it's going to be recorded pre recorded yet. We're trying to get that intro prerecorded, um, put together, but so I'm just going to have that off the top just in case we need it. Um, give that for the editors and then we'll actually roll into the conversation.

Speaker B: All. Right. All right.

Speaker A: Hi everyone. I'm Stephen Gallo, your host and VP of Client services at Reputation Inc. We're a public relations and thought leadership Marketing Agency for B2B professional services firms including those in architecture, engineering and construction. You can learn more at rep-inc. That's Inc. With a K dot com. All right, I'm very excited for today's show. Not just because we have a great guest and friend of mine on, but also because we're going to be talking about something that I think is really touching every firm in the AEC space and honestly probably beyond that and under other industries as well. Um, but we know that every AEC firm has a wealth of knowledge, right, that's built up over decades. Client relationships, project history, hard won expertise. But with, what is it, like 11,000 baby boomers or so, turning 65 every day and average employee tenure down to about five years or so, more of that knowledge, uh, is walking out the door than ever before. And so our guest today is Barbara Stiles. She's a senior consultant at Stan Bond Ness. Uh, she spent 35 plus years inside AEC firms and now helps them think strategically about how to capture that knowledge, protect it and activate it, uh, including as a marketing and business development asset. So uh, Barbie, welcome to the show. So glad to have you on.

Speaker B: Thanks. I'm um, glad to be here.

Speaker A: So, uh, for those who aren't familiar with Stanbaugh Nest, tell us uh, about the firms you work with, uh, in your role.

Speaker B: Sure. So Standby Nest is an advisory and consulting firm and we work solely in the architecture, engineering and construction world. Um, all of our clients are AEC firms and the company has a very diverse, uh, menu of services that they can, uh, provide. And so we really help you with the business side of your business. So everything from compliance and far audits and government contract services and tax solutions, um, ERP software, workforce and talent solutions, outsourced accounting and it. We also can help you with ownership transition, ESOP transition mergers and acquisitions. But my group is the strategic growth Advisory and we help firms grow and, and grow strategically and smartly and sustainably. And so we do a lot of strategic planning, marketing and business development assessments Some um, um, market assessments for you, um, client perception studies. And then we also do a lot of training. So a lot of training around seller doers. Doers, Project manager skills, um, also marketing, business development skill sets, um, communication and leadership. So it is a very wide plethora of things that Stan Bones can provide.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, a lot of knowledge there. Uh, and as you mentioned, the training and I think the sustainable growth piece is a big part of that. Right. It's one thing to grow, uh, but to do it in a way that uh, is tenable over a period of time. Uh, and it's hard to do that though when you have folks walking out the door with institutional knowledge that may not have been passed down to sort of this next new guard or next generation of employees. So, um, I know you've built a conference session around knowledge transfer. Uh, the rooms have been packed. I know because I've been there for them. But for listeners who uh, haven't caught you live yet, what's sort of the Cliff Notes version, if you will.

Speaker B: So the Cliff Notes is, you know, knowledge in, in an AEC firm is absolutely one of the most valuable assets that you have. Right. But it is also probably the easiest one to lose when those experienced people walk out the door. So the session is about how firms can, um, systematically capture the client, technical, business development, um, organizational knowledge before it does walk out the door. And because ultimately it's all about protecting those client relationships. It's about preserving the expertise that your company has worked hard to gain and also for preparing that next generation to succeed when they step up to those leadership levels.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And I mean when you have one of these experienced people who leaves an AEC firm, I mean, it's one thing to say, oh yeah, we have knowledge walking out the door, but what, what tends to specifically get lost there that people may not think about initially?

Speaker B: Yeah, so it, it's not just the technical knowledge. Right. That, that uh, especially if it was an engineer or an architect or a planner that walks out the door. It's not just their technical knowledge that leaves. Think about it. Firms lose client history. They learn relationship insights, they lose the lessons learned from working with clients and the negotiation approaches, maybe that work. Um, and then just that institutional memory, all of that can get lost. Um, senior staff often know things that aren't documented anywhere. Um, you know, client preferences or the political dynamics inside of a client or decision making styles that different relationships that they have like to use or their past project experiences maybe before they were at your firm. Um, and Then firms also, they can lose those company stories. Especially if you're a smaller firm and your firm founders are retiring, there's company stories about how your company got started could be gone, and the cultural knowledge around your firm could go, and the context behind why certain decisions were made in the past for the firm and maybe even why processes exist now. All of that can be lost.

Speaker A: Yeah. And if, you know, it's sort of a now or never to capture it, to prevent that loss. Right. Uh, not, not exactly a perfect metaphor, but Right. When I worked in TV news, uh, as a reporter, you know, if you were, you know, there was a, let's say a house fire or something, uh, you know, it's always get the footage of the, of the fire, what's burning first, and then we can get the interviews and talk to everyone else, gather it, because once that is gone, there's no getting it back. Uh, and so, you know, it's, it's similar to when we're talking about this generational shift, uh, within firms. And I'm wondering, uh, especially now, why it's more urgent than it was, say, even 10 or 15 years ago, uh, from your perspective, at least.

Speaker B: Well, you know, demographics alone these days make it more urgent than it used to be. You know, as you mentioned earlier, you know, 11,000 baby boomers are reaching retirement age every day. And, you know, they don't all retire at 65, but many AEC firms have significant knowledge concentrated in the senior staff that are getting to that age. Um, and then, as you also said, employee tenure is much shorter than it used to be, so firms have less time to transfer knowledge before people move on. Um, like you said, the average tenure in a job right now is about five years. And for the newest generation, um, Gen Z in the, in the workforce, um, it's less than 3.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So, um, you know, so think about it as they get older, but they're, they're still moving jobs every three to four years. When they do get to that point, you know, they have knowledge that needs to be captured. And if, if they're in and out in three years, that could become a little more difficult. Also, firms focus a bit more on succession planning and, or as they focus more on succession planning and ownership transitions, that knowledge transfer can become a very critical business continuity issue. So it is definitely a more urgent issue today than I think it was even just a few years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, and every firm is a little different, of course, but, uh, we tend to see them being really good about capturing project Information, let's say the nuts and bolts, because that's immediately what comes to mind. Um, but when it comes to some of this more intangible knowledge, why is it so rare to see firms actually capturing it and systematically using it? Well, what's that disconnect?

Speaker B: Well, you know, I think most firms recognize that there is a problem, but then they wait until someone announces their retirement or resignation to do something about it. And that's usually way too late. Um, so if you want to capture your knowledge, well, it requires an intentional effort. And um, many firms assume, I think, that it will just happen naturally through the day to day interactions that their staff are having with each other, that, you know, all of this knowledge in one person's head is just going to naturally transfer to somebody else just through their day to day interactions. Um, but that, um, the most valuable knowledge a lot of times is difficult to document because it's not based on a, um, you know, maybe a project that you've got in your CRM and you've got, you know, all your CRM information. It's really based on somebody's personal experiences, their judgments that they make and the relationships that they have, rather than procedures that are easier to document.

Speaker A: M. Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. Um, and you know, those procedures, those, those um, less obvious pieces of knowledge. I mean a lot of people sometimes think of this whole process, uh, like you said, of it just happening on its own, um, and not having to be intentional about it. Um, but I imagine a lot of folks, particularly, you know, in our audience, marketers, business developers, let's say, you know, they think of this as maybe, oh, that's an HR problem or this is an, this is an operations issue. Um, what's your argument for why this is a marketing problem?

Speaker B: Um, well, I think marketing and business development teams in most companies really are the stewards of the client intelligence, right? The company stories, the market knowledge, the relationship history. They're the stewards of all of that. You know, HR isn't involved in most of that operations maybe, but they're not looking at it from a holistic viewpoint. They're looking at it from a, this is my client viewpoint. So I think marketers and business developers have a broader, um, view on that. And then, you know, when a, when a rainmaker leaves your firm, M. Your firm can lose decades of, uh, client relationship knowledge. And that kind of directly impacts future revenue. Which marketing and business development teams should be part of your growth strategy. They're a very important part of your growth strategy in your firm. And so they need to be involved in things like that. Um, and, you know, maybe a practical example of that is when a longtime client manager retires and nobody knows about that client's preferences, who the key decision makers are, the past challenges maybe he encountered with that client, um, or why they won projects in the first place. Those are all marketing and business development, um, things to deal with. And so they have to be a part of the team. Not to say that HR is not a part of the team, not to say that it won't be a part of the team when you're putting together your knowledge transfer program, but it definitely needs to be led by marketing and business development, I believe.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like you said, they're really the stewards of the stories, uh, and have that interconnectedness that, you know, other departments just don't quite have that same perspective on. Um, and you distinguish between explicit knowledge and tacit knowledge. And I think this is interesting. Uh, can you walk us maybe through that framework and why it matters for how firms kind of approach this whole process?

Speaker B: Sure. So explicit knowledge is knowledge that is easy to document. So these are things like your CRM data. Right. Your standard operating procedures for, you know, hr. It's your employee manual, the workflows that your company uses, the project processes. Maybe you have case studies on things that you've done. All of those things that are really easy to document. You can write them down and you have a library that you can put them in. Right. That's explicit knowledge. Tacit knowledge is much harder to capture because it's based on someone's experiences, intuition, judgment, relationships. Okay, so that's a little harder to capture. And firms often really focus on capturing that explicit knowledge because it is easier to capture, but they kind of overlook the tacit knowledge side. Um, and usually that's where the greatest competitive advantage that your company has resides, is in that tacit knowledge. And so the. That's why having a knowledge transfer program that includes things like mentoring, job shadowing, um, storytelling and not just documentation is very important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I was. I'm wondering if we can just dig into that a little bit more and to kind of share how you've seen that look like in terms of when it's been done well, um, because I feel like. Yeah, that's right. A little harder to maybe grasp. All right, well, how do we get that tacit knowledge? Um, have you seen that done?

Speaker B: Well, so, you know, a lot of companies have those formal mentor, mentee, um, programs in place where they are Matching a senior level person and a junior level person together to learn from each other for a year. That's a great way of doing it. Um, uh, but if you don't have maybe a formal mentoring process at your firm, another way of doing it is job shadowing. Um, at Stanball nas, we call it plus ones. So if you are a BD person and you're going out for a client meeting, take someone along that needs to learn a how to do a client meeting and then can also watch you in action and how you work with this client. Um, take somebody along to job shadow with you and then you have that opportunity for that instant feedback and there's instant questions afterwards. Um, and people learn very well from experiences more than they learn from just somebody talking to them about it. Right. So they need that, that experience of doing that job shadowing. And then from the storytelling side, you kind of have to look at it from who you're trying to get the knowledge from. Some people are like, I will never, you know, I don't want to take somebody around with me. I don't want to do that. But they're willing maybe to come in and do a one hour lunch and learn where they can talk about stuff and show people and do scenario planning. Maybe you set up some sort of lunch, ah, and learn program where all of these senior leaders are coming in and talking to more than one person at a time. Um, another way that I think works really well is especially if you have firm founders who are getting ready to retire and part of that success session planning is you sit them down and videotape them, asking them, uh, how did the firm get started? Who was our first client and how did that happen and how did you build the culture and have that video that then you can use forever? You can use it as part of onboarding for new folks so that they understand how the firm came to be and why it's successful. So there are just so many different ways that you can do that. Tacit knowledge. It just depends on the comfort level of what people involved in it want to do.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, yeah. A lot of roads in, but ultimately, yeah, capturing that fire while it's still burning, Right?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. Um, so you touched on a few, um, areas already. But, you know, within this framework, we're talking explicit and tacit knowledge and how we kind of try to be comprehensive. Are there any other, like, particular areas of knowledge or pieces of this that, um, are especially critical for marketing and BD that we haven't touched on?

Speaker B: Sure. So you Know of course that client relationship knowledge is probably the most valuable. Um, within marketing and bd. The client preferences, the key contacts, the contract histories, the lessons learned. Some of that's explicit knowledge and some of that's tacit. Right. Um, and the business development knowledge is also critical. But things like prospecting strategies that BD director might have or the sales approaches that they like to use, um, especially if there are market specific tactics that they have come up with over the years on the different markets that they're in, um, negotiation techniques that they have learned, um, that all could be important things for um to be able to pass on especially market specific or client specific information. And I think something that gets overlooked a lot is maybe the industry and association relationships. Um, those matter as well. Um, you know, you're in SMPs, as I, that's how we really met was through SMPs. Um, and many senior professionals have built very large networks over the decades, um, through their activities in industry associations and professional associations and those networks and those that knowledge needs to be intentionally transferred so that you use all of that.

Speaker A: Ah, that's knowledge. You, you know, as a firm you've invested in that individual, cultivated this over time. And so yeah, that's, that's an asset that you don't want to lose for sure.

Speaker B: And people don't think about, you know, who do you know in these, in these associations and why has it been helpful to our company and why do we need to continue, um, building relationships within that association. So I think that's one of the big ones.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, keep like momentum going. Um, that's a great point. Uh, for marketing, a director, let's say, who's convinced that okay, yes, this matters, uh, but may not necessarily know where to begin. What do you tell them?

Speaker B: Um, I always tell them, especially in my conference sessions because we talk about, you know like the end all, be all, what your program could look like. Um, but I always tell them you have to start small. You know, identify, you know, two or three senior staff members that maybe their knowledge might be difficult to replace if they left tomorrow. Start small, start talking to them, start figuring out what it is that you want to capture. Um, but I think you first want to focus on capturing those client relationship type information and the business development insights because a lot of times those often have the greatest revenue impact when they walk out the door. Um, and you could create some sort of a small pilot programming using maybe some of the simpler approaches like interviewing folks, having them, you know, bring somebody along, job shadowing, making sure your CRM is up to date before you try to build something very large and complex. And you may not need something very large and complex.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, now flip it for me. Uh, how does a marketer now make this business case to leadership before, you know, we kind of go off that cliff, if you will, Because I know that is inevitably a challenge for some and having to sort of, uh, advocate for that.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: What sort of your strategies there?

Speaker B: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, let's be honest, marketing and business development isn't always seen m as one of the priority departments in some firms. Right. Um, it should be a part of the strategic growth plan, um, in a firm, but it's sometimes it's not. So for those, uh, marketing leaders that need to make the business case, um, you need to make it a business case. Uh, so you want to position it as more of a risk management and revenue protection initiative. Right. It's not a training program. It's not a. Ah, we would like to have this information in our system so we don't have to keep asking the person the same question 400 times. Um, it really is a risk management and revenue protection, um, you know, so ask your leadership a very simple question. If our top business developer or seller, doer or technical expert or principal left tomorrow, what knowledge would disappear with them? And then you connect that knowledge transfer directly to succession planning that the firm might be doing and client retention and project quality. Right. Um, and future growth. And then emphasize that the firm's that don't do this. They end up re buying, I say, rebuying that knowledge that they already had because of rework that's happening, lost opportunities because we didn't know what was going on, inefficient onboarding with staff, um, you end up re buying all of that. So there is definitely a cost to maybe not doing it. And I think if you can structure it that way to firm leadership, it speaks to more to them.

Speaker A: Sure. I mean, because ultimately that is the, the reality, the outcome of it. Right. It's just sometimes not, uh, always necessarily an immediate effect that you'd feel. And so it's, you know, oh, you know, this is not a problem today. This is, you know, a problem for tomorrow and until tomorrow comes. Right. Um, so I guess is there, you know, one final thought you would want to, uh, leave our listeners with or kind of the one thing they can do today to maybe at least get rolling in the right direction with an initiative like this?

Speaker B: So I, I would say the best time to start thinking about knowledge transfer is before you really need it. When you really need it, it's like the fire is already going. Right.

Speaker A: So. Right.

Speaker B: Uh, so you, you really need to start thinking about it before you really need it. And that it's not really about documents. Okay. It's about ensuring that the relationships and the expertise and the experience that your firm has can continue to create value for you long after, you know, individual people move along. And firms that have that intentional knowledge transfer, they don't just preserve the past of their firm. They can really accelerate the future growth of the firm and the success of the next generation of leaders. And I think that's just a bonus.

Speaker A: Speaking of momentum. Yeah, um, exactly. Um, and yeah, uh, I guess for folks who may want to learn more or get in touch, um, with you, Barbie, uh, what's sort of the best way they can reach out and learn more about the work. Work you do.

Speaker B: Um, so the best way to reach out to me is probably by email. And uh, so my email address is B Styles S-T I L E S@stambonnest.com. um, you can always go to the Stambonnes website, um, and click on people and find me there also. Uh, but I'm happy to talk with anybody about, uh, knowledge transfer or any other ways that I or Stanbonnets could help them in their firm.

Speaker A: It's very true and I can attest to that. Barbie is very good at transferring knowledge in general. So definitely, uh, take her up on that. Uh, and I'd be remiss. Barbie, you mentioned we're, uh, members of smps. Of course. I'm currently serving as the chapter, uh, president for North Florida. And you are serving as the conference chair for the Southeast Regional Conference, which is coming to North Florida for the first time. Yes. In about, I think about a decade since it's made its rounds, uh, around the Southeast to the different chapters. Um, so, yeah, just maybe you want to throw that out there. What's in the works so far and what can folks look forward to?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, it's great. We have a, ah, very dedicated planning committee that is already kicked off, um, planning for the conference, which will be, um, in Ponte Vedra beach, south of Jacksonville. Um, in Ponte Vedra beach in march of, uh, 2027. I think it's March 22nd through the 24th, 2027, at the, ah, Sawgrass Marriott Resort there. And, uh, if you want more information, um, about the Southeast Regional Conference, the website is smps-serc.org and you can see all the beginnings. Call for speakers will be out. Um, if it's not already out, it will be out very soon. And we're looking for great speakers to come and share your new ideas. And how can marketing and business development be a better influence within their firms and whether. What are the new outcomes that we can bring to our firms to make them stronger?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, and it's a, uh, huge opportunity, too. I mean, you've got hundreds of marketers, business developers, firm leaders, decision makers across the Southeast kind of all convening in one place. So. Yeah, from not just a, uh, a, uh, knowledge sharing and learning and growth opportunity, but, you know, in terms of just networking and really growing, uh, your network, it's. There's nothing like it, so. And plus, I'm a little biased, but you get to come down by the beach here with us in North Florida. Not too bad, right?

Speaker B: Come to Florida. It's great in March. It's great in March. Come to Florida.

Speaker A: Wonder. Well, thank you so much, uh, Barbie again. Uh, we've been talking to Barbie Stiles of Stambon Ness about knowledge transfer in the AEC industry. Um, thank you again for your time today and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon.

Speaker B: Thanks. Appreciate it.

Speaker A: Awesome.

Speaker B: Uh,