How to Embrace the 'In-Between' Space After Shedding an Old Identity | Laura Gassner Otting

Speaker A: So have you ever felt like the very identity that defined you was becoming a bit of a straightjacket? Kind of like the career path, the role, the Persona that you had so carefully crafted, it just suddenly felt constraining rather than purposeful? If so, you've likely experienced the disorienting yet, uh, potentially catalyzing transition that I'm exploring with my guest today. I'm joined by Laura Gassner Otting, an author, speaker and true work life innovator. She is intimately familiar with the psychological terrain one must navigate when shedding an old identity to birth the next evolution. Her book Limitless and also her book Wonder Hell really dive into different aspects of this in a powerful way. In our candid conversation, Laura pulls back the curtain on that oftentimes agonizing in between space after one identity falls away, but before the next one really, truly emerges, you'll hear some surprising truths about the paradoxical role of self doubt, why feeling unmoored can actually be a sign of, uh, blooming possibility, and how cultivating a supportive crew to propel you through the most daunting phases can be just so incredibly helpful. And before we dive in, a quick note on the state of the show so we have been in a season of reimagining here at Spark hq, really taking a look at what we're doing and why, how we're serving, and how best to keep serving you in the future. And as we do that, we have decided to take some time and place the show on hiatus while we deepen into new ideas and formats and ways to keep sharing the awakened work life love. So this will be the final episode as we head into a quieter season of incubation and reimagining. We so appreciate you coming along for the ride with us and really look forward to being back with new ways to share new ideas. In the interim, you can stay in the loop with all things Sparkotype over@sparketype.com or follow along with my weekly Awake at the Wheel newsletter. We'll include links to both of those in the show. Notes Till next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Sparked.

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Speaker A: AI is transform customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses. This includes the real world, complex stuff like issuing a refund or canceling an order. And we also see it when FIN goes up against competitors. It's top of all the performance benchmarks, top of the G2 leaderboard. And if you're not happy, we'll refund you up to a million dollars, which I think says it all. Check it out for yourself at fin. AI. Laura Gassner Hiding We've been rolling together, having conversations, strategizing, brainstorming, conniving, uh, on all sorts of things. Work, life, career, m happiness, fulfillment. For years now. You're one of my go to people when I'm really trying to figure out which way is up. And we are having this conversation at a time when, when there are a whole lot of people trying to figure out which way is up, especially in the context of work and life, careers. Um, we were talking a little bit about this idea that it's also just like post graduation season, uh, as we're having this conversation and it will air and as parents a lot of times we're focusing on how do we guide our kids to make intelligent decisions in a world that we're struggling to find intelligence in. But it's not just limited to people who are graduating from college now. This is a phenomenon like the topsy turvy world is affecting all of us.

Speaker C: Yeah, I years ago sat in my niece's high school graduation and the principal did a graduation speech. And in the graduation speech she was talking about how like the world is your oyster and you can do anything you want and you should think about what you care about in the world and this is the time and this is the moment. And I remember thinking that's so awesome for these kids and why don't we all get to have graduation season? Right? Because like when you're graduating from high school, you're what, 17, 18 years old, you don't have a frontal lobe. The part of your brain that dictates good sound, logical decision making, like you don't have it for another Seven years. And yet we're saying, like, this is the time to decide who you are. I don't know about you, Jonathan, but I didn't know who I was until deep into my 30s. I mean, I started business, I'd had a couple kids, I'm married. Like, I'm finally like, okay, I guess this is who I'm going to be for a little while. And that was, I think, the first time since maybe declaring a major in college that I actually thought, well, what do I want to be when I grow up?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting point also, right? Because so many of us wrap our sense of identity around a work, which. And there are arguments that are pro and con about that, you know, and. Or around a primary role or devotion, maybe parenting, um, caregiving, uh, volunteering, whatever it may be. That thing that kind of fills a central space in your life. And then it's interesting, right, because your invitation is really poignant. You're like, okay, so, but even if we sort of graduate into that post college, let's say 10, 15, 20, 25 years later, we graduate into something else that feels really murky. And there's no ceremony, there's no ritual. And oftentimes if you are somebody who has kids and a family and you're raising them in a meaningful way or participating in that and they make their way out into the world, it's like, okay, so who am I again? You had a really strong sense of identity for a season of life. But then everything changes. And it's like, how do I figure out who that person is now?

Speaker C: Yeah. And what's interesting about that to me is that usually when we're at that point where everything changes, it's because somebody else or something else in our life has moved on, right? So your kid is graduating, and you celebrate them. You get through a divorce and you sign the papers, right? Like there's a thing. You, you, you. For me, I sold a company, right? When. When. When you GLP is no longer, you know, happening, you're like, what am I going to. What. Who am I now? Right? So for me, it was a, uh. Like, who am I when I'm, um, no longer lgo CEO? Here's my business card. And when I sold my company, it. It was five years from the start of when I decided I wanted to leave. Until we finally, like, my last day and last day. There was no celebration. There was no party. There was no cake, there were no balloons. There wasn't even an email. Like, yay, let's celebrate Laura. And I remember coming home at the end of the day, looking at my husband and saying, I can't believe nobody celebrated my last day. And he said, yeah, it's your last day, but it's in a way their first day. And they're terrified, right? Like, you're excited. You, like, did this thing, you patted yourself on the back, you built it. And yeah, they celebrated when you announced that you were selling and all of that stuff. But like it's their first day. And so for a lot of us when we, for example, graduate our kids from college and we're like, okay, I've launched a child. Now who am I? They're not looking at us being like, good job, mom. Good job, dad. And so there isn't this built in ritual of, okay, I've now been through that. What do I do? Because we're so busy thinking about the other people's transition that we don't actually stop and think about our own. And where that left me was going to a coffee shop the next morning and standing in line and running into a friend I haven't seen in a decade and them saying, what are you up to? And I was like, well, I just sold my company. I'm not sure what I'm going to do next. And they looked at me with this vacant horror in their eyes because suddenly they didn't know where to put me. Like I, I had fallen out of the filing cabinet in like the neat little slot where they had assigned me and there was nowhere for I m Was like floating free in their brain. It was like they didn't know what to do. And because they were so worried, I immediately jumped in. I was like, well, I'll probably do some consulting and maybe I'll do some coaching. And I immediately filled it in with all the things that were the right answers. And then I started doing those things because that became, you know, the, the, the identity that I, uh, forced myself to have because I feel like I needed to have one. And I didn't let myself sit in that space of discomfort to not know. And I think part of that ritual of how do we find purpose in a world that seems like it's on fire when the, the metrics of what actually matters is changing in the world and in ourselves as we grow, Being in that space of uncertainty feels insecure. But it is so necessary to getting to who we actually have become when we were so busy trying to launch other things or other people.

Speaker A: Yeah. And there is, um, culturally, I feel like that space is devalued it's sort of like, oh, if your answer is, I'm, um, quote between things, between jobs, then the eyebrows raise and the quiet talk is, oh, what a shame. Or they can't figure it out, or they're spinning their wheels and they're just like stuck rather than, uh. I feel like it's such a western overlay on that. Rather than saying they're actually creating the space to really just settle, not settle in terms of settle for something less than, but let their mind settle, let their heart settle, let their sense of soul and energy just kind of breathe a little bit and come down to a place of a, uh, little bit of peace and space so that you actually have room to let the next thing that the ideas, like whatever the whisper is that maybe becomes a call start to bubble up. We don't do that in our culture. We're actively dissuaded from doing it. Yeah.

Speaker C: And what happens, I think, is that we spend so much time keeping all of the plates in the air, keeping everything spinning all of the time that we don't just let all the plates come down and sit on the counter and then decide which one we're actually drawn towards. And so we're usually drawn towards whatever's on fire, right? Whatever the loudest thing, whatever the most urgent thing is right there in that moment. And this having some space to just let things settle and wait on what we actually feel drawn to pick up and to learn more about and to create. You know, people are always like, oh, what would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail? That's your passion. And I'm like, no, like, what would you do if you knew for sure you would fail? And you would do it over and over and over and over until you got it right. Because. Because that's your passion. And I mean, frankly, doesn't your passion deserve that? The problem is that we just live in this world where, you know, we have these, you know, insta fluencers that are like, follow your passion. And that's not, it's not a direction. Right. It sort of says like, if you, if you find your passion, then everything's going to be super easy. But as soon as you find your passion and something goes wrong, you're like, oh, I guess this must not be my passion, I should do something else. Right. And so you keep like looking for something else that's going to be the thing that sets your heart on fire immediately, when in fact it's going to take time. You know, before we started recording we were talking about our kids and, and uh, you know, there, I think there is this notion in the younger generation today that they're going to find something and pick it up and immediately going to be good at it and then that's their passion. And I had a conversation with my younger son last night where he was lamenting that things were difficult and he wasn't sure and that he's not naturally talented at this, that and the other. And I was like, you're not supposed to be, you're not supposed to be good at anything and you're not supposed to have natural talent at anything, but that's okay. Like, uh, and his, you know, the fear of failing, like, I've got news for you, you're going to fail and you're going to fail a lot and it's going to be okay. Uh, that's how you learn and you grow. And having spent 20 years in executive Search, I can tell you that the only interesting people I talked to were the ones who had tons of failures because that's when they actually stopped and were able to ask themselves, do I actually care enough about this to go after it again and again and again until I get it right?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that lands really true with me.

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Speaker A: What also is bubbling up as you're describing that is this idea of, okay, so whether it's through some blend of talent or working really hard and developing high level skill and competence, eventually, like a lot of us do get really good at something, right? And then that's something because we're good at it. If it happens to be something where being highly skilled also is well rewarded, we build a career around it. We're like, yay, we're really good at this thing. We get paid nicely for it. We rising up whatever the ladder is, we're building a life around it and a livelihood. And then we get to a point where, okay, it's the next inflection point and maybe it's the kids out of the house, maybe whatever it may be, or you just hit a point where you're like, this just doesn't feel right to me anymore. There's this really interesting psychology, I'm wondering if you've seen this too, where we tell ourselves that because we're so good at this, because there's a need for what we're really good at, then who are we to stop doing it? And we shame ourselves for thinking that there's, you know, like, maybe there's something else that we might switch to. Something else that we have zero skill in. Something where maybe there's a big learning curve and we have to get up to speed and it might take a couple more years to again start to become good at that other thing. And the blend of that, it just, it keeps us completely locked in. And especially if we're really good at something that is truly, like, needed and in service of others. I feel like that it's such an interesting inflection point because it feels really good to be good at stuff. It's nice to m. You know, to be able to support yourself, um, comfortably with what you're doing. But just because you're good doesn't mean you should.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, sometimes our biggest gifts become our biggest prisons. So we get stuck in this place where we feel like we have to keep doing it either because of ego. Right? You keep doing it, people tell you how valuable you are at it, and so you don't move on to something else, which, by the way, doesn't give other people the opportunity to get good at it and to rise to where you've been. Right? So there's, there's. I think there's a responsibility there towards the, the people who are coming up beneath us. But there's also this, um, this fear, right? Like, how do you, what if it doesn't go well, am I going to give up the thing I know for the thing I'm not so sure about, right? How do I get to that place of being comfortable taking that risk? And you know, when I, when I coach executives, I always talk about how there's, you know, there's two numbers, right? There's the need to make number and the want to make number. And that need to make number is like everything that you're going to need to pay the bills, right? Pay for school, pay for vacations, um, um, buy the car, all the things that you need. And then the want to make number is the like, well, what kind of school is it? And how fancy is the car and how nice is the vacation? And in between is that space where you get to play. But because we live in this, you know, hedonic treadmill world where we like, keep pursuing the next bigger, better, faster, more thing, we don't ask, we don't stop and say, like, well, is it, is it enough? Like, do I have enough where I am that I can now start to explore elsewhere? But I think the bigger thing is not even the financial question. I really do think it is this identity piece because we do get trapped in. People know me as a, you know, a competent human who excels at a thing, right? Like that is the, you know, what, what's the first thing we ask people at a party? What do you do? Right? Like it's. We are so tied up in this professional identity that we don't give ourselves this chance to, to stop when a Limitless came out. The question I used to get asked on podcasts all the time because that book was about, you know, creating careers of, of purpose, was, what advice would you give your 18 year old self? And I remember thinking like my 18 year old self who's listening to a podcast on her iPhone that she downloaded from the Internet, right? Like, none of those things existed when I was 18. So even if, for example, I knew myself, which I definitely didn't, or if I was going to take advice from an old lady, which I definitely wouldn't have, the world around us has changed so much that we, we have to change and shift. And I think it's really like every five to seven years that we really change that, that we reevaluate or that we should reevaluate who we are, what we care about, what matters to us most. And if we're not actively changing the world around us is changing so much that I think it forces that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I had a friend who once told me, she said, um, if I'm not a different person seven years from now, I'm doing something wrong with my life.

Speaker C: I say that to people all the time. The people who come work for me. I'm like, if you are in this same job three years from now, I have failed you. Like I, I failed you. That, you know, I mean there's like the science, right? Like all of our cells, you know, turn over. We are literally different people. But we, we are, I think us and everyone around us, we, we're so busy changing. But I think what matters to us also changes. When I, I, I used to say that, you know, there are things you can maximize for certain things in, in your career. You can maximize for profit, you can maximize for impact in the world and you can maximize for freedom and flexibility. It's very hard to maximize for all three at once. But if you're building a career based on one of them, awesome. Like go out like maximize your earning. Amazing. Or go out and maximize the good you want to do in the world. Amazing. Or um, have the kind of career that gives you all the stream flexibility, amazing. But really I think you can, I think you can crush on two of those at once. And as long as you're doing that, you're actually able to create something that is meaningful to you. Right? And I think that's the difference. Like we think these jobs of purpose have to be meaningful to the world. They have to have lofty or higher in front of the word purpose for them to matter. And really at every stage and at every age, what matters to you will be different. And I think it's okay when you are in that sort of income, maximizing time in your life to be pushing on that. And you can know that there will be time in your life to have more of that sort of impact play or that you're going to have time where you want to spend more time showing up for three o' clock soccer games for your kids or your grandkids. But maybe that means that you don't pick and choose which clients you have. So you're reducing the impact. But right. So you're, you're, you can sort of play with those things. But this most expedient path to the corner office, crush it, lean in kind of world that you know, we were in 15 years ago, I don't think that exists anymore. And I don't think the younger generation coming into the workplace will stand for that anymore. So what an opportunity for all of us to stop and say, well, maybe I've changed. Yeah, maybe I should do something else.

Speaker A: So agree. And I don't think a lot of sort of like young adults who are rising up want that because they're looking at the generations above them, and they're looking at. They're asking the question, are, uh, they living the life I want to live? Are they happy? Do they seem like they like their lives, their jobs? And a lot of times the answer is, I don't want what they're having. Um, so when you get to this point in your life where you spent decades building your own firm, establish, um, a big reputation, you have this exit, and then you get to that point where you see the person in the coffee shop the next day and you're like, ah, uh, I'm not that person anymore. Tell me about the season after that. Tell me about how you navigate that space to then start to figure out, okay, this is the identity. This is a sense of work. This is a sense of service. This is what I'm stepping into. That feels good. I know you described there was sort of like a. There was a microseason there of like, okay, I'm just going to throw a whole bunch of plates in the air and spin them as rapidly as I can. When those start to settle, like, how do you decide, okay, what do I actually follow here? What threads do I actually say yes to? And what do I let go of?

Speaker C: Yes. So there was a microseason, and that was definitely the don't do it this way lesson, um, which was say yes to everything that comes along because you're so afraid the phone's not going to ring again. Right. So the first piece of advice I give to anybody who is transitioning, um, out of a career and trying to figure out what's next is don't say yes to anything for, like, a good three to six months if you can. Right. So, like, figure out the financial side of that. Um, but don't say yes to anything unless it is, like, coming out of the, like, every fiber of your being is this is the thing that you want to do. What I did is, is I, in hindsight, uh, the way that I ended up doing it. Right. I didn't realize at the time, but once I extracted myself from all the things that I said yes to that I should not have said yes to, I really kind of adopted a strategy which is pretty simple, which is do interesting things with interesting people. And if you do interesting things with interesting people, interesting opportunities arise. It wasn't a strategy I realized I had until I interviewed Jack Lew for Limitless. And Jack Le is a former United States Treasury Secretary. I first met Jack when he and I worked together in the White House when I was 22 years old. And he was the person who was writing the, uh, the legislation for what would become AmeriCorps, the National Service legislation. Before that, he was in a big law firm in New York City. He was on partner track. Um, he had worked for Tip o', Neill, went to New York City, went to this large law firm, and he got a phone call from Eli Siegel, who ran national service, said, would you come write the legislation? And so he's like, yes, absolutely. Everyone thought he was insane. You're on this partner track, you're in this big firm. Why are you going to D.C. for this little program that might not even pass Congress, that even if it does, is not going to be this, you know, thing? And he said, you know what, it's an interesting idea, and Eli's an interesting guy. So I'm going to do this interesting thing with an interesting person, and who knows what's going to happen. P.S. that legislation passes. More than a million people have served over the course of the last 20 something years in AmeriCorps. And because Jack was working in the White House, he got to know Bill and Hillary Clinton. He ended up being, um, uh, the Chief of staff for the Office of Management and Budget. He ended up being the chief of staff for Hillary. She became the Secretary of State. He ended up being, uh, the Chief of staff for Obama when he became President. And then Obama nominated him to be the Secretary of the Treasury. So he had no strategy, but he did interesting things with interesting people and interesting opportunities came about. And when he told me that story, I was like, huh, huh. I think that's actually how I extracted myself from this prison of yes, right? This need to say yes to all of the things. Because my ego said, if people don't know who you are, if people don't know your name, if people don't understand where they can file you in a cabinet, and it's not easy for everybody else. Um, in order to extract myself out of that, looking back on it, what I did was I just stopped saying yes to all the ego things, and I just started saying yes to things that actually felt interesting to me, even if I didn't know where they were going to go. I knew that walking into this room with three doors, each of those three doors led to rooms that each had six doors. Right. And each. Those led to room with 12 doors. And what Jack said was, I just, at every turn of my career, I just made sure that I was increasing optionality. Didn't matter what those options were, as long as there were more options on the other side of each decision, I knew that I could explore and that things would work out. As long as I was doing interesting things with interesting people, interesting opportunities would arise.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Um, I love the idea of interesting things with interesting people. I love the idea also of increasing optionality. It's like an philosophy just land really deeply with me as you're describing that I literally had a flashback a million years ago as a lawyer, um, in my final year of law school, um, fortunate, um, I did well. I got to know the dean of the law school a little bit, Frank Macchiarola, who's also, I think, the former chancellor of schools in New York City. He had this long, really esteemed career in private work in government and huge impact. And now he's like the head of this law school. I remember shortly before graduating, I'm sitting in the office with him. He calls me and I couldn't remember why. Like, he just wanted to chat with me. And we're talking about sort of like, what's coming next, what am I doing, where am I heading? And I'm sort of like explaining to him how I'm thinking about mapping out my career and this and this and then this and then this and then this. And he's like getting a smile on his face as I'm saying this. And he's like, jonathan, let me tell you, like, you, like you see me here now. He's like, this wasn't planned. Like, every step that I've taken wasn't planned. Uh, and here's somebody who was wildly accomplished, but he's basically like, I basically said yes to this thing because it was interesting to me and it was a really interesting opportunity. And then through that, okay, it led to another interesting opportunity. And now I'm probably at that point, he's 40 years into his career, sitting in front of me, and this was now 33 years ago. That conversation has stayed with me. And there's a reason that it stayed with me because I assumed you only get to a place like that by being laser focused on the one thing and then going, check, check, check, check, check, step, step, step, step, step. And that's how you do it. And he's sitting there saying, not, uh, so much, man.

Speaker C: I mean, it couldn't be more opposite. I mentioned earlier that the most interesting people I spoke to in 20 years of executive search are the ones who had all sorts of failures. The truth is those failures led them to left turns and right turns and U turns. I, I don't think I placed anyone in 20 years. And, and I interviewed thousands of people stewarding hundreds of organizations through organizational disruption and C suite leadership ships. Right? Like I'm talking about a big sample set of people. I don't think I ever placed a single person who had a linear career ever. Like ever. Because you don't learn anything in a linear career. Like you've learned how to, you learn how to promote, you learn how to, how to perform, you learn how to polish, but you don't learn, um, you learn how to perfect. Right? But you don't learn how to learn. You don't learn how to figure out who you are. And you're like, I think it sort of leaves you in this place where you're kind of playing the part of, you know, the star student, but you're not actually figuring out what really matters deep in your soul. And you know, like, if you're not bringing your soul into the work that you do, it, I mean it'll be successful, but it's not going to resonate, it's not going to scale, it's not going to grow in that way. That's something that you know, is, is contagious like in somebody's being, you know, will, will fill. It's all to say if I, if I were as successful as the person my 18 year old self told me I wanted to be, like if I became the person my 18 year old self dreamed of becoming, I would have stunted my growth and my development in such major ways.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Like, I would rather be trapped in the, the, the fear of the uncertainty than the prison of sort of the perfection.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. And while the feeling may be trapped, it's really, you know, that is the space of incubation, possibility.

Speaker C: So to go back to this conversation with my son last night, he was like, well, I'm just looking forward to a day when I just know what I'm doing. I was like, it's like, oh son, let me know when that is.

Speaker A: Right, Right.

Speaker C: Uh, I hope you never know what you're doing. Right.

Speaker A: It's like, let me, let me know what that feels like. Okay.

Speaker C: Let me know what it feels like. Right. I mean, this is what I wrote about in Wonderhow. Right. Which is the, the every time you figure out something, every time you succeed in something, you're like, that was amazing. It's exciting. It that was transformative. And also now I've seen a new extended boundary of my potential and my possibility, and I feel the burden of that in such a way that I'm filled with dread and uncertainty and doubt and envy and exhaustion and all of these feelings. Right? It's wonderful. And it's hell. It's wonder hell. So, you know, I was like, my wish for you is that you never know what that feels like to know everything. Because how sad would that be if you sort of peaked if you hit that final bloom at any point before the last day. It's so exciting out here. I want to keep learning and growing. I hope that for everyone.

Speaker A: And that actually sounds like a great place for us to wrap up our conversation, because I think we both wish that for everybody. Thank you. As always. It's always great to, uh, be able to just learn from you and grow with you.

Speaker C: Well, it's always fun to hear more parts of your story.

Speaker A: All right, take care, everybody. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal sparketype for free@sparkatype.com it'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate Sparked in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of Sparked was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Dell for her research on this episode. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Sparked.

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