SMP 289: The Author of The Lean Startup Explains How to Build an Incorruptible Company

Speaker A: The graphs look remarkably similar. It's just collapse, collapse, collapse. And therefore we live in an era of collapsing trust. The graphs all look the same. So we live in this era of temporary organizations being run by temporary managers for the benefit of temporary owners. And we don't know what to call it. We can't even say it's bad because we're all supposed to pretend that we think all the different ways of making money are equally good. But no one really thinks that. Certainly not anyone who went into solar. Are you kidding me? Uh, we have a belief, I call it the builder's intuition, that the best way to make money is to create more value than you capture. Because then all the profit you make, by definition leaves the world better off.

Speaker B: This is Benoit Thanjan, your host of the Solar Maverick podcast. Today I'm very excited to welcome Eric Reese, New York Times bestselling author of the Lean Startup, and his new book, Incorruptible why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great. The Lean Startup has influenced entrepreneurs around the world, including me. I read it while starting Renew Energy, and its principles helped shape how I approached building my company. In Incorruptible, Eric takes on a deeper question. How can companies grow, raise capital and become successful without losing the mission and the values that made them worth building in the first place? In this conversation we discuss mission driven entrepreneurship, shareholder pressure, corporate governance, investor alignment, AI, and how renewable energy and climate technology companies can protect both their purpose and their long term value. Let's get into it. Hi, this is Benoa, your host of the Solar Maverick podcast. I'm really excited on this episode of the podcast to have Eric Rees. He is a New York Times bestselling author and he has a new book, it's called Incorruptible. I actually have it right here, why Good Companies Go Bad and how Great Companies actually Stay great. And you might be familiar with, uh, his New York Times bestseller, the Lean Startup, which came out in 2011. Eric, I really appreciate you making time to be on the Solar Maverick podcast and I read your book when I first started my company and used a lot of those concepts. And now we've been in business as a solar developer and consulting company for 14 years. So I really appreciate, uh, all congratulations and thought leadership that you've done within the entrepreneurship sector.

Speaker A: Uh, it's my pleasure. Happy to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. If you could start off maybe, um, talking about your background and obviously Incorruptible, I think it came out about maybe two to three weeks ago. You could get it obviously in bookstores now, obviously online as well. It would be great maybe if you could start off Talking about your 20 years of experience in entrepreneurship, uh, obviously incorruptible. And then your book, the Lean Startup, to start off the podcast.

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Gosh. I have been in entrepreneurship for quite a while now. And, you know, I got into IT through engineering. So I was one of those kids. You know, I grew up programming computers. I wanted to just make cool products. And I remember when I first found out that you could get paid for computer programming, like, I couldn't believe it. I thought I was going to have to pay them, but now, uh, they pay me. This is incredible. So I thought I would just be doing that my whole career because I thought software technology was the most powerful force in the universe. And then I was like, no, no, no, it's not technology, it's products. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not products. It's. It's teams. It's people that make the product. So management is the most powerful force in the universe. And my whole career has been this kind of peeling back the layers of what are the, what are the most powerful forces that, that human beings can use to create impact in the world? And the new book is you, uh, know about realizing that no matter how good your management system is, there's still something yet deeper that you have to grapple with. But the reason I know that and know it so well is I spent a lot of time changing how management is done. And in particular in the field of entrepreneurial management, that is the management that happens when we face high uncertainty about the future. And at first that was just about me and Silicon Valley startups, you know, tech startups. But because Lean Startup became such a phenomenon, it got used by people in so many different walks of life, so many different industries. You know, in solar developers, in conventional energy development, I worked on combined cycle power plants, I worked on cures for cancer, I worked on defense and government applications. I mean, I could just go on and on and on and on. And increasingly large companies started to embrace it and use it as a philosophy to reinvigorate their management system. So I really got to see the very best of what management can do and also its limitations.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And what made you write Incorruptible now and publish it now compared to other time periods?

Speaker A: Well, I wish I had, you know, like I go to you say I had such incredible foresight that I knew the issue of public corruption was going to be on people's minds so much as it is today. You know, that was obviously not anything I could have foreseen. I embarked on this book, you know, gosh, three years ago, something like that. It's taken me a long time to develop it, long time to write it, research it, figure it out. But to me, this is just a straightforward extension of the work I've been doing for 20 years. I want to help people create really great organizations. And I've been at it long enough. I've helped a lot of people create a lot of companies, I mean, a lot of companies. And every day I meet people now because I'm out but on a book tour who tell me like you did, that Lean Startup helped them create a great company that I never even heard of, I didn't even know. So I only know the hundreds of companies that I personally know the story and I help them. But there's probably thousands more that I don't even know. Um, that's the privilege of publishing a book on Lean Startup and having people embrace it. But I've also seen the dark side of this business. I've seen so many founders lose control of their company. I've seen so many companies turn bureaucratic or malignant or worse. And I know a lot of people who've had a lot of conventional success and are totally miserable. And I started to ask myself this question. If the people who are the so called winners of this system, after all the moral compromises and all that, the giving up of their idealism and all that stuff, if after all that they're still not happy, then what was it all for? Who does this system benefit? And I've just started to really grapple with this question of what is going on with these companies. And it took me a long time because we don't even really know what to call it, right? Like imagine you, uh, you have a solar company. Like a lot of people get into solar because they want to make money. Are you kidding me? Right? Really? There's a lot of easier ways to make money than solar. And obviously like, that's true for all kinds of entrepreneurship. You don't become an entrepreneur making money. That's crazy. Just your odds of success are so low. No, people get into it because they have some kind of principle or value that they are committed to, some person that they want to serve some reason they think the world should be different. And unfortunately we live in the era of what's called shareholder primacy, which holds that although you probably think that the company you start in is a beautiful Vital living organism that produces high quality products that delight customers and has a positive impact in the world. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yes, of course.

Speaker A: Sucker. Sucker. I can't believe you that. Oh, you don't know. According to the law that we all live under. No, no, no, you're the sucker at the table. Actually, organizations are just financial instruments designed to enrich their shareholders. That's all they are. And so what happens is we see companies who have these lofty missions or mission statements come into contact with this underlying legal reality that they're actually supposed to be extraction machines. And so what happens? You know, I've been, people have been telling me all their stories as I travel around the country now doing talks about the new book. People tell me all these stories about their favorite restaurant gets taken over by private equity, their favorite brand goes public, and then it goes, you know, to hell. Then companies get, as they get bigger, their commitment to quality decreases, their trustworthiness decreases. And it's not a single person has called me up to tell me a story that's like, hey, private equity bought my favorite restaurant. And now, thanks to the vast financial resources of the five private equity firm, the food got more delicious. No, it's always the opposite direction. Yeah. So what's going on? We can't even call. We don't even know what to call this. Well, our grandparents and our great grandparents, they knew what to call it. They would have called it corruption. That's what's going on. If a solar developer gets turned into a fossil fuel company, that's a corruption of the intention by which the company operated. If it loses its commitment to its community, to its purpose, to the principles that it exists to serve, it loses the thing that made it worth building in the first place. That is a corruption. Like a corrosion in the joints disintegrating the thing that made the company special. And in, uh, a lot of cases, I tell the story in the book, a lot of these stories in the book, these corruptions lead to a collapse of the whole enterprise. So what's really interesting to me is we live in an era where, uh, the average longevity of companies is falling. The average manager tenure at companies is falling, the average stock holding period of public equities is falling. The graphs look remarkably similar. It's just collapse, collapse, collapse. And therefore we live in an era of collapsing trust. The graphs all look the same. So we live in this era of temporary organizations being run by temporary managers for the benefit of temporary owners. And we don't know what to call it. We can't even say it's bad because we're all supposed to pretend that we think all the different ways of making money are equally good, but no one really thinks that. Certainly not anyone who went into solar. Are you kidding me? We have a belief, I call it the builder's intuition, that the best way to make money is to create more value than you capture, because then all the profit you make, by definition leaves the world better off. And I think that's something deeply human about that. That's part of our spiritual traditions going back thousands of years and part of the philosophic and economic tradition. You can find this in the writings of so many great thinkers over the years, and we've kind of lost it. It's kind of fallen out of the common discourse, and I think it's time to bring it back.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, that was such a great description of corruption and what's happening currently in modern day. I mean, it's interesting because we've seen this within, um, the renewable energy industry. A lot of, you know, companies have failed because they lost sight of their mission and they received a lot of capital from large private equity funds. And then they were ultra aggressive to, to increase shareholder value and they lost track of the mission. And eventually they were just too aggressive that they actually went out of business. And it's interesting, most people who actually go into renewable energy, uh, are doing it because of the mission. And it's interesting to see over time too, like, how many companies have got out of business because they lost the trust with their customers, they lost track of their mission, and it was all about increasing shareholder value and not ruining the values of the company. So it's interesting because actually I, uh, haven't actually raised capital for my company because I was concerned about, you know, like, I want to focus on certain sorts of things that I think will add the most value. So once you add, like, obviously outside investors, you know, that could change obviously the dynamic, you know, because, you know, their focus is getting to an exit event or monetization. And so, uh, it's interesting because a lot of what you talked about I relate with. And then like, just going back to like, your first book, I was part of an accelerated coil startup leadership program, slp, and then this was actually the first book that they recommended us to read to start a company. And I think, like, can you imagine, like the impact that you've had with obviously the books, you know, working with many different companies, the podcasts, like, I'm sure, you know, it's obviously like, surprising for you to Hear like how much impact you've had in the world with the work that you've done as well. Right.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, it's been, it's been incredible. Yeah. I could never have anticipated how, how it would be, but I think, yeah, you know, you put an idea into the world, you never know what's going to happen. You know, you don't know if anyone going to keep working these books for years and you, you never know. Is anyone going to care? Is anyone even going to notice, uh, and the fact that people have become evangelists for these books and spread them and recommended them and handed them to people and say, you got to read this. That's ultimately what makes it, that makes it all work. And I want to uh, address something you said though about the, about the taking on of investment. We're living in a time, this is actually crazy to me, where your views are not uncommon. A lot of really great companies view investment as too dangerous to pursue because it will inevitably lead to the loss of mission. This is the downside of shareholder primacy. And, and increasingly more and more and more companies are turning away from investors. They're turning away even from the idea of being a for profit company altogether. Like, I think a lot of people, uh, in the younger generations see for profit automatically as a vector of corruption, investment as a vector of corruption, because that's what they've, I don't blame them. Look, look around. That's, that's the reality that they've lived in. Cory Doctorow calls it inshittification. You know, like you see these products that get worse and worse and worse as the companies get richer and richer and richer and they conclude that what it means to make a profit is to extract as much for yourself at the expense of others. But I don't think it has to be that way. We don't have to build a financial system that works that way. We could build a different one. But more importantly, there are techniques that are known where there's strong research to support that make it possible to build a mission driven company to a blueprint that is strong enough to resist all these corrupting forces.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you talk about that in the book. Can you like, talk about how like mission driven companies can protect their mission as they scale?

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. It's um, it's basically a formula and the formula is very simple. It's just ethos plus integrity. Okay, so let's unpack it. Ethos is the character of an organization, what it stands for. So ethos is fundamentally a leadership principle. It Is leadership with the goal of producing alignment or coherence of all the people that are touched. A lot of the reason people see investment as a source of corruption is that oftentimes, um, the goals of investors are not aligned with the goals of the rest of the enterprise. But that doesn't have to be the case. We could certainly set it up so that they are. But before we get to investors, we have to first start with just like, what is our intention? What does it mean to make a profit? You know, most companies do not actually declare their purpose. Their legal documents just say to pursue any lawful act or activity. Any lawful act or activity, no matter how harmful. Right? No. So. So, um, there's a lot of techniques we can use, like the Public Benefit Corp. Filing, very easy filing you can do in Delaware to establish formally that the company has some non financial purpose that is seeking to, to pursue. There's the operational discipline of making what I call fiduciary commitments. So whose interest would you put before your own? You know, what principle would you rather die than betray? Those are the kind of questions that we have to make to develop an ethos as a company. Then integrity. Integrity is about structure. So, like, think about a bridge that doesn't collapse, even though it's under a lot of pressure or weight, right? Like there's a lot of gravity. But gravity doesn't cause every bridge to collapse, only the badly designed ones. So what, uh, what is the equivalent of like, the good design, the good materials for, uh, a corporation, for an organization? And there we do things like figure out how to make sure that the board of directors is aligned to the mission. How do we make sure, you know, like, doctors have to take a Hippocratic oath. Why don't directors have to take an oath? It should be a director's oath, like the Hippocratic oath, but for directors. And of course, there are these structures, many of them actually in the world, that produce the kinds of checks and balances so that somebody can be what I call the mission guardian. Someone has the responsibility for overseeing mission integrity, holding the board of directors accountable. And that can really provide the counterweight necessary to make investment safe. So sometimes the mission guardian is the founder with super voting shares. Sometimes it's a nonprofit foundation, like in the case of Hershey Chocolate or Novo Nordisk. Sometimes it's what's called a purpose trust, like they have at Patagonia. It can be an employee ownership trust or an esop, like at Taylor Guitars or a John Lewis partnership. It could actually be a cooperative, like at Vanguard or REI or Mondragon in Spain. And there's many more. I've just, there's just a couple to scratch the surface. It turns out there's this whole universe of structures designed to produce mission longevity. And just to cherry pick one stat from the book. Companies that have the industrial foundation structure are five times more likely to live to year 50 compared to companies with a conventional structure. It is a dramatically different outcome. And there's a lot of data like this for, to support employee ownership, uh, to support purpose driven, mission driven companies of creating outperformance. So this is not just a moral argument, but also a performance argument. Our goal is to protect companies from the forces that will drag them away from the very mission that made them profitable in the first place.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really interesting. I know. Can you talk about maybe companies today that are actually, uh, like, mission driven? Obviously people are familiar with like Patagonia, Ben and Jerry's ice cream. You talk about it as well. Like what companies that maybe people are familiar with have like the sort of structure that you talk about today.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let me tell you a story that kind of encapsulates the whole story, both the problem and the solution. Okay. I'm going to keep it far away from solar and energy and complicated stuff. Let's keep it real simple. All right. Let's talk about retail. Retail is a very simple business. You know, it should be really simple. And yet for many, many, many years, retail was an industry that was exploitative to its customers. Because most customers were captive. Deceptive pricing was rampant. Companies would try to mark up, uh, products, uh, as much as they could because they saw having a high margin as a source of strength. Anyway, Saul Price was an entrepreneur in the 50s who looked at this whole industry and said, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. He was a lawyer before he became an entrepreneur. And as a lawyer, he said, my client is my fiduciary. I had to put my interests before my, uh, my, my client's interest before my own. So when he became a retailer, he asked himself the simple question, who's my client? He said, oh, the customer is obviously my client. I am a fiduciary to the customer. That was his operating principle for a company he called fedmart. Fedmart was a membership club, warehouse, bare bones. He practiced what he called capped margins. So he wouldn't mark up an Item More than 14%. And as a result, customers trusted him. If he found out that a competitor had the product at a lower price, he'd Post about it in his own store. Be like, hey, just so you know, you get this product cheaper from someone else. So I'm your fiduciary. My job is to get you the lowest price, however that works. Anyway, very ethical person. The kind of leader we all wish, uh, CEOs would be. He paid above market wages. He did a bunch of good stuff. He was an early opponent of segregation. Did a lot of good things. Anyway, the company thrived. He became a wealthy man. He took it public. He made a lot of money for his investors. And you want to guess how satisfied they were with this explosive growth? Not at all.

Speaker B: Not at all.

Speaker A: Not at all. He always wanted more. And from their point of view, they couldn't understand. Why was Saul, uh, paying wages higher than he had to? Why did he have lower margins that he could have? They kept being like, hey, listen, because people trust you, why don't you betray them so we can make a little extra money? Yeah, because they believed in the best practices of that time. Anyway, after 20 years of building Fed Martin to this behemoth, Saul comes to work one day, and in 1975, and he can't get into his office because they've changed the locks on the door. He m. Doesn't work there anymore. Board gets him out of the way. And with him out of the way, then they're able to use conventional retail best practices to make Fed Mart more profitable. They made it so profitable, in fact, that within seven years, it had been completely liquidated. There are no Fedmart stores today. Went bankrupt in 1982. So this is one of many, many, many examples in the book of companies that are murdered in the name of profit. Now, I like this story because it has a happy ending. Most of these stories are just miserable. And then that's the end. Sort of has a happy ending because Saul Price, classic entrepreneur, he took two weeks off after this betrayal. He leased an office upstairs from fedmart in the same building, and he got back to work. He created something he called the Price Club, which today is not that well known, but when I was a kid, that's where my family shopped. The Price Club was an institution. And it's not that well known today, because something else happened at the same time. One of his proteges, someone, uh, who had worked his way up from stock boy to executive@fedmark, quit in protest when Saul was fired. And he would eventually go on to start his own company along the same model. And eventually his company and Saul's company would merge to form a combined company. They called Price Costco. We just call Costco. See, I've just told you the deep cut backstory of how Costco was founded. Costco still embodies that saw Price ethos all these years later, even though now it is a $400 billion public company. So why was Fed Mart destroyed? But Costco endures? It's not just the leadership principles. Those are important. That's a precondition. But Costco is also protected by what I call a governance fortress of special provisions that make sure that outside agitators cannot bully them into abandoning their ethos, which happens every couple years. Wall street constantly is attacking Costco, constantly trying to get it to change its ways. One of my favorite quotes in the book is from a Wall street analyst who said something like, costco takes money that rightfully belongs to shareholders and instead invests it in improving the customer experience. So. So, yeah, that's the. And that integrity, that ability to keep a promise, is what makes Costco distinctive, but it's enabled by choices they've made on the governance side. That governance ratings agencies that, like, have the responsibility of defining what makes good governance have given Costco their worst possible score. Yeah. Because they violate these best practices. So part of the challenge, especially for, you know, in people who have a social mission or environmental or some kind of, like, extra financial goal with their company, you have to understand how radical that makes you in today's business context, that you are already, just by making that commitment, defying the most important of these best practices. And so once you start to see these best practices as value destroying, we can start to ask ourselves the more important question of, well, what are the practices that can supplant or replace them?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, uh. You did such a great job of explaining that, and I think our audience really, like, learned a lot from that. And obviously, you could read more about it in the book. And it was just, for me, like, really interesting to read it in the book, but then also to hear you explain it as well. Uh, it's just really.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, that's really interesting. You know, I know this is not really covered in the book, but this kind of reminds me, too, when I was reading it, about, like, what's happening with Anthropic today. Of course, you know, I'm talking about having, like, some sort of controls related to AI and having, like, a board. You know, then there's, like, talks about the government getting involved. Do, uh, you have, like, perspective on that? Because that's, like, something that we're seeing today about, like, you know, AI and maybe using AI and in a negative way. Right. Not just on a, Ah, you know, obviously profitability, but also, you know, there could be uses that.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I, I, um, Anthropic is in the book as a case study because I played a very big part in the founding of the company. Now, to be clear, I am not taking credit for Anthropic's extraordinary success. Okay. My, my role was extremely small, but I did get to meet with them when they left OpenAI, and they were thinking about the structure and all credit to Dario and Daniela and the whole team. They foresaw, uh, that if this technology worked, it would be worth trillions of dollars, and it would be something that nation states and public companies alike would covet and try to control. So they were just. They understood that it was, like, morally unacceptable for this technology to be sold to the highest bidder and that they needed to take extra steps to ensure that their mission, their values, their commitment to safety could be protected. Does that make Anthropic a perfect company? No. Have they made no mistakes? No. Do I agree with every decision they've made? No, of course not. Being strong means being coherent with one's own values and being able to resist pressure. It doesn't mean we agree with everything that they do. I think part of the problem in our hyperpolarized age is we can only call someone right if we agree with them. 100. That's crazy talk. You have to be able to respect someone who acts with integrity, even if you don't agree with everything that they choose. Now, does that mean that you have, uh, give the benefit of the doubt to every maligned jerk in the world? No, not that either. But we can tell the difference. Normal people can tell the difference between someone acting with integrity and someone who's just posturing. And I think so far, the early returns, we'll see. Anthropic's got a long way to go, but so far, the early returns is they seem to be unusually courageous amongst their peer companies. They seem to periodically be called upon to stand up for what they think is right, and they have the strength and the structure to do so.

Speaker B: And it's been amazing to see, like, with the US Government. Like, that takes a lot of strength.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that they've been consistently rewarded for from the market. Again, I don't see how they could possibly have anticipated that would happen. So I think it's quite a remarkable run they've been on.

Speaker B: How can like solar and climate tech companies balance profit impact and long term trust?

Speaker A: If you think about like, okay, let's do a little checklist, okay? Real simple. First thing you got to do is decide on what your corporate purpose is going to be. Uh, if you're in solar, man, if you tell me your mission is to do something in solar, but then I read your legal charter and it says maximize shareholder value is your legal purpose, you're already in big trouble, okay? Because there's so many energy projects where if you converted them to conventional energy sources, you would violate the mission, but you probably could make a short term profit. And if you're telling me that that will never happen, there'll never be a situation where that economics might work out and that's your protection against the mission, you're kidding yourself, man. That's all it takes is one board member, one investor, one person to show up and say, you know what? I think we could make a little extra money if we do this horrible thing. And if you committed yourself legally to that regime, then you'll be forced to say yes. I tell the story in the book of a company that was forcibly acquired by Philip Morris International, a healthcare company forced to be owned by a cigarette maker. And it was just an immense act of value destruction. I mean, after the acquisition, Philip Morris basically destroyed the company within three years. But the board said, well, we have no choice. It's our fiduciary duty to say yes to this monstrous thing. The premium that Philip Morris was willing to pay over other bidders was 15 cents a share. Wasn't.

Speaker B: That's nothing.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's the first thing. So I recommend we define profit as the maximization of human flourishing. If we focus on some version of that kind of purpose statement and we write that into the legal charter using something like the PPC filing. That's the first step. Gotta do that. Second question is like at the, uh, the level of the operating system of the company, I have basically two checks I want to do for every company. One, does the business model structured in such a way that the company cannot make money except by accomplishing the mission? If it can, it will. So don't leave those temptations open. And then obviously, is the culture aligned? Do, do the employees of the company know that even if there's no manager present, they need to enact these values and support this mission? There's a lot in the book about how to do that. And then, yeah, I would pick a structure, I would pick something like the, the director's oath, something like the industrial foundation structure certainly for a solar company. I just would almost always think a um, non profit mission guardian would be the best but or a purpose trust. Those seem like very obvious choices to me. If you um, a lot of companies listening to this, a lot of founders, a lot of leaders, board members, if they ask their conventional lawyers about it, the lawyers will either say never heard of it or we're like oh, that's something weird and complicated and old fashioned. So if you get that kind of runaround or even like, oh yeah, that's a good idea but we should do that later. One of the key ideas in the book is that it's always too early until it's too late. So I actually got so frustrated with lawyers doing this that I helped start my own law firm, uh, called Virgil. So if people can check out try virgil.com. there's literally we have lawyers who specialize in doing this for early stage companies at extremely low cost because we use AI to drive all the cost out of it. So ah, if people want to get in touch there, that, that's a source of, of additional legal advice on these questions.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. We'll have that on the notes of the podcast as well. And one last question, Eric. Um, how does AI change the Lean starter principles and build measure Lean Cycle?

Speaker A: You know, I feel like Lean startups held up pretty well definitely in the age of AI. Uh, yeah, like I was on the Lenny podcast and Lenny was like, oh, the, the top frontier labs, their product teams use these principles to this day and that's how they're getting ahead. Very straightforward. And I feel like the basic idea that in a highly uncertain, highly democratizing or speed increasing technological paradigm, it just makes sense to use a scientific method to try to figure out what's really true. And at the end of the day entrepreneurship is a truth seeking discipline. So I don't know, I feel like I've held up pretty well.

Speaker B: It definitely has. I really appreciate you making time out of your busy schedule, Eric, uh, to be on the Solar Maverick podcast again. Your new book is Incorruptible. Where can our, we call our, our audience Mavericks. Where can they find the book?

Speaker A: You can uh, find all the different independent bookstores around the world that are selling the book at Incorruptible Co, uh, as well as of course anywhere else. Books are sold online. You can, you can get all the usual places and if you go to the website you can sign up for the mailing list and get a whole bunch of bonuses and implementation guides and reader's guides and a lot of cool stuff. So, uh, please do check that out.

Speaker B: And that's amazing. And then you're still on your book tour, so people could obviously join you on the Butcher and I'm sure. Well, yeah, please have.

Speaker A: People are welcome. Welcome to do that. I actually, I maintain a website called howisincorruptiblegoing.com where you can. You can check all the events and podcasts and interviews and stuff and all the awards and things. The book is winning. So, yeah, if you want to follow along that way. How is incorruptiblegoing.com that's great as well.

Speaker B: We'll have that on the notes of the podcast. We'll have also your LinkedIn profile, a link to both Incorruptible and obviously your first book as well. Thank you, Eric, for making the time. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure audience and I keep so much.

Speaker A: Thank you. All right. Congratulations to you too. Thanks everybody. Make sure to link, uh, to like and subscribe, as the kids say.

Speaker B: For sure.

Speaker A: Take care. All right.

Speaker B: Bye. Bye. Thank you.