Why Quality Engineers Fail at Business Thinking - Marta Firlej

Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers, developers and test automation engineers and all the people in the software development process who want to create great, amazing quality software. My today's episode was recorded at Testwarez, a great testing conference in Poland. The days were full packed with great quality content and I had a great time discussing and chatting with the Polish and the international software test community. If you haven't been here, you should definitely go to one of the next TestWarriors conferences.

You find a link to the conference in the show notes. My guest today is Marta Firlej. She has over 19 years of professional experience mainly in the area of quality assurance. She is also a very active member of the Polish and European testing community, organizing events and sharing knowledge as a speaker on conferences.

and she's the inventor and organizer of the testing conference TestFest. We talked about business and how do we as testers fit into the big picture of how a company earns money. What are the real costs of employees and of running a company? And what is the value of testing and quality?

And now enjoy the episode. Hi Marta, great to have you on the show here. In a car, thank you very much. Yes, it's unique.

It's unique, yeah. We are here at the Testwarez conference, day one of the lectures. Yes, in Wisła in Poland, so for those of you that like ski jumps, it's here. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

And we have the opportunity to drive around with one of the sponsored cars, a Moda 9 Super Hybrid. So we will also test how it goes. Like our testers job is. And don't be surprised if you're watching it.

We are going downhills, uphills, we are in the mountains, so it will be fun. Yeah, so I have no stabilization. So I think the people who can watch it on YouTube, they will feel that. Perfect.

Mate, you did the keynote today. I did. That was my first keynote presentation in my life actually. Wow!

Yes. Awesome. A lot of stress. A lot of stress, yeah.

And it was about a very interesting topic, not a real software testing topic. No, not at all. So, you know, I was thinking about it for years and like, you know, it has to go through my soul. Like, often I see that the testers or quality engineers, they don't understand the business.

Like, they understand the testing, they understand it from this perspective, but they don't understand how the companies work. Yeah. And like when they make decisions, especially now when we have this crisis times, like they have a tendency to ignore it. Yeah.

So today, like I did this presentation on Hustef and I did it today a little bit longer version within the theme of ski resort and actually the employees of the of the ski region. And I used props, so I had the golden coins today that I showed it throughout the presentation. Chocolate, German coins. Yeah, that was fun.

Yeah, yeah. So let's go into the topic a little bit. So I usually, when I work with testers, they are all not really aware about all the stuff that's going around there. But you say that's crucial to understand what we're doing there.

It is. So like today I showed a little bit, A hint. A hint what actually activities, what investments, what budgets disappear throughout the like how normally the company works. So we started the journey from like the onboarding costs for a person and the salaries and so on.

But I wanted to share all of those other costs that people don't associate like branding, marketing, signing the contract, the legal, additional fees we have, investments, you know, changes within from the ski region to bike centers, right? All of that. And like I finished the presentation with four areas of development or like things that we should all do. Yeah.

Like easy ones, like to understand our own value, like to know who we are and what value we bring within the organization we are in. Then like that we should plan and what we should do to go next with it. But there are Two more crucial, like I ask everyone from like next Wednesday, as we have a long weekend in Poland, to start like getting to know how their organization works from the business perspective, how the organization makes money, what's the past, what's the future, who's the main stakeholders, what decisions they make.

So that's one thing. And also like, as I work mostly in software houses, but I think in product companies is the same. To get to know what value data testing brings for the stakeholders. And I'm not talking about this, you know, basics we know, that like it brings the information about the quality, all the stuff that is close to us.

No, it's like from the business perspective, like if we say that, like, what value it brings for my stakeholder, like, because having information about the quality, it's like they can calculate how much money they will lose if they go with a release. I think this is a very, very difficult topic to calculate this stuff. It is, it is very, but it's possible. Like actually we did it.

It's like, you know, like we have this, we can do the basics, like right, how much time, like how much money we need for automation, how much money we need for maintenance. But what if the like, the will block the system or one crucial functionality won't work? And you can calculate this, like good product managers can do it. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's often the problem how to value your testing and to market our testing stuff in the company. So we need these numbers. Yes, we need numbers and, you know, KPIs. And we can look at the past.

So this is something that I'm not doing automation, right? Through my career, each time I was jumping into the project, they were so messed up. And there were challenges in completely other places, even though they wanted me to test, to do it good, I had to work with the requirements. I had to manage all of the other stuff and build processes and so on.

And then everyone was asking about automation. We have developers, they can do it, right? And I could calculate how much time and what effort is needed, but also what will be the return from investment. And if it's worth it or not.

And not often it's worth it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we are often very optimistic, especially when we're doing automation stuff. Yes, we do.

And you know, it's like, it's something that clients understand. And this is why I was trying to say about the business and for people to understand what their stakeholder needs and how they recognize the value. Because, like, we taught people what development is. That lines of code, like functionalities, they understand why they they have to pay for development.

We did not tell them what quality is and what's the cost of the quality and what's the risks behind it. And often I ask like experienced testers, do they produce test report? And I'm not saying about this huge definition, multi-pages. I'm saying one email with the crucial information where we are.

And they like often tell me, no, no, no. I was like, why not? It's like, because client did not ask. I was like, but you're the experts.

You are the one that should tell him or her that they need it and what value it will bring to them. So if we don't promote our work in a way that they need it from the business perspective, they won't appreciate our efforts. Yeah, that's so true. When I think of testing, typically managers, if they have to decrease something of their costs, Testing is one of the first things because they often...

Testing is so abstract for them. It's dealing with a possible risk in the future. It's a cost. Yeah, and it's a cost.

And how can we bring the value or a number to this possible risk mitigation we do with testing? You know, it's... Even though I look young, I started... You are young.

I started about 20 years ago. and it's the fourth crisis from the Polish testing perspective. It's fourth time when our clients, and we are mostly delivery centers and like cost centers for the companies, so we provide services, testing and development services for other countries, other organizations. It's fourth time in my career when the clients are going from Poland to India.

From the cost perspective, it's cheaper. And it's fourth time we have to use the same argument and prove the value. And nothing works best than like using those money, like having those coins and show it to the clients when they know it. But to properly calculate it, like when I'm saying it, we should, in my mind, it's a team.

We have there either a product owner, product manager, project manager, engineering manager. There are people there with us that have a little bit bigger access to the budget and they understand a little bit more from this perspective. So if we can calculate, like, share the risks, if we can calculate the time needed just in case something happens, that for example, full regression will take like a week. Yeah.

It can be clearly described in money. Yeah. If we think about it, that we'll need to have like 24/7 support during the holidays because we are not sure of the functionalities. If we did not set for QA processes, it's clearly communicated.

It can be clearly translated to money. And it may not be us, but we need to start this process, like show it that it is possible and educate our team members as well. We barely do it, I have a feeling. - Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think a lot of testers and test managers try to avoid this whole stuff with the money thing, but it's crucial to- - Yeah, it is. put the numbers on the table. - Today I was like, during the presentation, I tried to have this calculation at heads of everyone, how much it takes for investment, for the people investment. So someone sitting on bench, it's also an investment.

And I ask everyone to think like how much they earn, then at 30%, because those are the extra taxes, the employer, this gross gross the employer pay in Poland, then calculate it throughout 12 months, because this is normal investment that we are doing within people. And then double it, because this is the cost for the company, for all the benefits, all the things, right? And then it's a huge number. And there were people approaching me after that they never thought about it in that way.

And it's like, guys, you're coming to the paid conference. We have healthcare in Poland. We have all those benefits, like even fruit at Thursdays at the office. It costs.

And it costs more if we would just go to the shop and buy it by ourselves. That's true. You said also that automation is not always the money worth it. Do you have any experience?

Tell us something from your history there. Okay, so I worked sometimes in three projects at the same time. And don't tell them like that, because all the clients thought I was full-time for them. Like, if we think now, the world is changing so fast.

So if we have applications that like, or like either mobile, like whatever type, and we are not sure that we'll be on the market for long, or we see the requirements are changing or other things, I don't believe it's a moment we should do the automation. Like basic smoke tests. Yes, perfect. Like, of course, like crucial functionalities, but full regression, like there is no point.

probably we'll change it, especially if they are POC's, like new product, like something very dynamic, different brands, right? Now I work for the financial services and there are some things that will stay there for ages, right? But there are some things that we are just trying out, like maybe clients will like it or not. And then if not, we just cut it off and delete with all all the tests with all the things.

So this is something that we should have in mind. And I recognize that often people that like plan the automation, they do the test strategy for this automation. They skip the part of calculating also the maintenance costs and who will do it and how often. And then we have all this knowledge about like, you know, positives, like mutation tests and so on and so on.

I think I'm very lazy. So I want to invest my time and my money only in things that will really bring value. So let's come from the value perspective. So is it valuable to do the automation for something that will change fast or something that it's for a small amount of people or something that it's not critical?

Yeah, a lot of things we have to deal with. And I always think when we as techies in the automation area and something, we always fall in love with our frameworks and our test automation solutions and we don't want to get rid of it. No, that's why it's important to switch projects and companies. I believe then like you get better with every project, every company, you learn a lot and You don't have this bad feeling that I'm destroying something, I build it.

It's not you that it's like cutting off your child. And I remember when once test automation engineer decided to leave my project. But we agreed that he will, as there was no one else, he will join the interviews for the new person. And for each interview, we were sharing his test case to the new person, new candidate.

And this person was asked to say what would do better. This test automation engineer, after second or third interview, he said that it's too much for him. Because yes, they are right. He made all of those mistakes.

He should have done it in a better way, to maintain it faster, easier, cheaper, better, and so on. But it's too much for him, for his heart, because he felt like someone is criticizing his child. It was too much. - Yeah, yeah, I can imagine that.

So true. What do you recommend for a tester who is now hearing the podcast episode and thinks, okay, yeah, I want to do this way and get some value, some numbers for my work. How to start? - I would start with take a look at your salary, get to know how in your country, your type of contract and cooperation within a company starts, then think about all the benefits, all the things that are working for the company.

So go into how your company works, so from the business perspective, that for example, do we have bench or not? How many additional people are working there that are not billable? Like for example, I am, right? I'm a boss.

So it means that everyone that works with me, they have to earn a little bit more that it's for my salary. And they need to earn a little bit more for the salaries of people that are on bench. And they need to earn a little bit more if they want to do learning and development, right? And if they want to have a party, again, they have to learn a little bit more as well.

So I would start with that. Just take a piece of paper. I did it for myself once. And really take a look at it.

And then we have AI now. You can ask, what are the costs, additional costs, what other things? And then I think the presentation will be recorded, but think about all the rest of the activities your company are doing. It can be like branding, marketing, it can be investments, it can be like, you know, charities, all the other things that companies do for purpose.

And at the end, add at least 40% because companies are here to earn money. And that was something that I was surprised at how many people would look at me during my presentation slide companies are here to make money. That's the goal of every company. Every company, government and country make money.

Yeah and we often forget about this. Marta, thank you very much for this interview and for the insights. I think I have to check also my projects and my clients about the money stuff and write down some numbers. and then I think maybe we are surprised.

Yeah and you know it's like especially in Poland we are not taught to talk about money. Yeah. So this is a little bit taboo topic so it's hard for us as well but don't be afraid you're not alone. Yeah.

We are all in it as long as we have jobs like we You're all in it. Yeah. Great words. Thank you very much, Marta.

Thank you. Have a good day. The same to you. Bye.

Bye.