Layers of Leadership

Speaker A: M foreign.

Speaker B: People. This is Matt Reynolds and I am the new leader at Plywood People. A little bit about me. I'm an Atlanta native and I've been a friend of plywood really since the beginning. I've known about plywood people and just been a fan, been inspired, met amazing people. But I've had an interesting last couple months because I've really gotten to get into the inner workings and meet these plywood people. My task, as I've understood it, is to really meet these people who've been impacted by the mission and figure out what's the common transformation in their stories. And so I just been asking people, how did you get connected? What's the impact been? Why are you still engaged? What do you hope happens in the future? And in these conversations, people continue to talk about their experience with this program called Layers. And it's taken different forms through the years, but it's basically a year long cohort. And this program has launched so many successful businesses, so many amazing nonprofits, and really has just changed people's lives. And so I really wanted to sit down with two of our most recent program participants and get them to talk about why this has been impactful for them. One of those people is actually on our board and she's on this conversation. And I was just really impressed that a board member went through the programming of Plywood and is a raving fan. And so, um, I'm excited for you to hear from her. But also my goal in this was wanting people to hear this podcast and say, hey, do I need to be a part of the next Layers program? Am I the kind of person that needs this now? And if you feel something stirring in you, if you resonate with this and you just feel like, I gotta be a part of one of these programs, we are looking at having a Virtual Layers group launch this fall. So one of the kind of calls to action here in the show notes is you could reach out to us and say, hey, I'm interested in that virtual program, you know, especially if you don't live in Atlanta. And then we're also going to be having another in person program, most likely January of 2026. So if this resonates with you, love for you to reach out and say, hey, I'm interested. I think I need to be a part of one of these next programs. And at the very least just let this inspire you in your journey of whatever you're working on. Maybe share it with a friend and just say, hey, can we talk about this? I need some other people in this conversation with me. So use this as a tool to get other people engaged with you so you don't feel like you're doing this alone. That's a common theme that you'll hear in this conversation is the power of the community you are walking with. And if you don't have that community, you can form it and it can start by sharing this podcast. So, so good to meet you. Can't wait for the future that's gonna come. And hope you enjoy.

Speaker C: Wabe's insider access giveaways sponsored by Live Nation, connect you with unforgettable experiences amplifying Atlanta. You can win tickets to Toto at Ameris bank amphitheater on August 2nd. Enter now at, uh, wabe.org giveaway.

Speaker B: Okay, well, here we are. I'm so excited about this conversation because I think a lot of people have heard about Plywood. They've heard about the different programs or the groups, but wanted to bring some real life participants into the studio to talk about their experience because I think a lot of people out there going, is this for me? Like, is this what I need? I'm not really sure what I need. So hoping y' all stories can just be a great kind of lifeline for people to know maybe what's next for them. So who do we got in the studio today? Let's just, uh.

Speaker A: I'm Jeff Shinnebarger. I'm the founder of Plywood and been doing Layers for many years and been hanging with people like these amazing people all the time. And both of these friends have been in my last cohort that I've hosted and led. So it's kind of fun to have them together. So anyway, I'm Jeff. I don't know how to introduce myself anymore. I'm the founder of Plywood. I don't know what I'm doing with my life now, so go ahead.

Speaker D: I'm Chanel Dokun. I am the co founder of Healthy Minds NYC.

Speaker C: I'm Christina Cummings. I'm the executive director of Kids2Leaders. We're a nonprofit that's been here in Atlanta for 25 years.

Speaker B: Awesome. I'm Matt Reynolds, the new executive director of Plywood. Again, just excited to get this conversation to m more people. So let's just dive right in. Jeff could explain what Layers is. Again, there's a lot of different programming here at Plywood, but love to hear how you all, uh, would explain this cohort experience, this program that you've been through this last year. So Christina, maybe we'll Start with you. How would you explain what Layers is?

Speaker C: Sure. Layers has been such, uh, a great community building opportunity for me. A chance to just come together every month for almost a year and talk about things that I think about every day, talk about things that keep me up at night and realize that I'm not the only one going through those things. Whether it's nonprofit leaders, small business leaders. You know, we were following a curriculum that was so obviously designed by folks who were in it. So getting to read and learn from that content and then realize we're all in the same boat and learn how to keep it going and keep the organization growing.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Thanks. Chanel, what about you? How would you describe it?

Speaker D: Wow. Well, everything that Christina said, I'll just add to that. I think it's a beautiful place to have a monthly opportunity for someone to invest in your growth and your growth as an individual leader, but also, of course, by extension, the growth of your organization and a place where you can be challenged, encouraged, affirmed, confused sometimes, because it sends you into a little bit of healthy anxiety. I think I felt like my experience was pushing beyond what I thought was possible for my organization. And as, uh, somebody who's been a big dreamer and visionary for a while, it was exciting to be in a place where I could kind of like, dream for my business again. So, yeah, it's a great spot.

Speaker B: Well, we'll come back to dive in a little bit deeper on some of what you guys just shared. But before we go too far into that, Jeff, just tell us briefly, like, what was the need that you saw to even create this program years ago? I know it was a different kind of iteration. It's evolved. But, like, what was the heart of the. Why this needed to be created in the first place?

Speaker A: Well, I think Layers is really interesting because it's a longer term commitment. You got to commit to a year. You have homework every month, you get together every month, whether that's in person or sometimes through zoom, depending on the month. Sometimes in a retreat. They're all different kind of formats. I think one thing I realized early on was we were doing these programs that had a very short term link that you were committed to, which was fine for the short term. But then at the end, everyone's like, man, I feel like I just got to know you all. So this was a longer view where you could really develop relationships and go deeper in developing models for your organization and growth for your organization. And I think what happens over time is you start realizing the same fears that someone's addressing how to hire people or fire people or whatever are the same fears that they're dealing with on the financial side of the organization. Or you start seeing these not just as a facilitator, Everyone in the group starts saying, I think you said something similar in this other situation that we were dealing with four months ago or six months ago. And so people start calling each other out in a really beautiful way because you actually get to know each other through some hard decisions. On the nonprofit side, I think most people don't, uh, they don't have someone they can be honest with. If you're the executive director, you can be semi, mostly honest with your board, but sometimes you're disagreeing with your board, so you can't be fully honest. And then you go to your team and they don't really understand everything that you're stressed about with the board, and so you can't tell them. And so this ends up becoming this place that you can actually say the thing that you want to say. On the business side, same thing. It's like you can't really talk to your staff about it. And you might have a partner, but you might be disagreeing with the partner on something. And so this is a real safe place to come in. And interesting thing is, like, you never know what somebody's coming in with when you start the sessions. Sometimes people come in with something there. I'm actually looking at the two of you going. There's a couple times you guys walked in with some stuff, you know, so you never know how. You kind of have a plan for the time, but then you never know where exactly it's going to go, which is kind of. Kind of exciting.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Well, and just to be clear, it is a mix of for profit and nonprofit. And if I understand right, you both kind of represent a different aspect of that. So, Christina, you're non profit, and then, Chanel, you have your own business, correct?

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: Would you guys just tell us just a little bit about your work and, like, kind of where you find yourself in your work. Like, I don't know how long you've been in that leadership role. I didn't know if, like, this is like, I need some skills or I just want to refresh some skills. So tell us a little bit about the work that you do and kind of where you were coming into the Layers experience.

Speaker C: Yeah. So kids to Leaders was at an interesting place when I came into the Layers group. The ministry is 25 years old. We serve families with an incarcerated parent throughout the Atlanta Area I had been with the organization for 12, started as the director of programs, became the ED in 2017 and then from 2022 to 2024, we some really rapid growth. So the organization doubled, which is a big theme of layers of how do you double your organization? So I came in and I was like, well, we just did that. We just doubled. I'm pretty tired. We doubled the number of people served, the number of volunteers, the amount of money that we raised to make that possible. But we knew we wanted to do it again. So we were starting off on a journey with our board of strategic planning saying, okay, we did that once. We did some things well, some things we didn't do so well. How do we do that again over the next five years in a way that's a little more sustainable, replicable, meaningful. And so that's what I was coming into when we started our group.

Speaker B: How do I double without being so tired?

Speaker C: Yeah, we don't want to be reckless. We want to be able to do it several more times.

Speaker A: And your doubling took a different shape.

Speaker C: It did. So we were doubling in Atlanta over the two year period prior and now we're doubling the number of states that we're in. So we're actually replicating into Alabama, which is exciting. And we just realized how different that was and how much we had to learn.

Speaker A: Hmm.

Speaker B: M. We'll come back to some of that. What about you, Chanel?

Speaker D: Sure. So I'm the co founder of a therapy practice, therapy and coaching practice that's based in New York City and we started in 2016. We have a team of about 11 or 12 clinicians, depending on the time in which we're talking about. And it's been a really fantastic group. I've been doing a lot of other things though, as a founder, which is part of the challenge that I was facing. I was running my own private coaching practice and. And I have written a book. So I was really excited about that and trying to figure out like, how do all of these pieces work together and what does it look like for me to kind of pursue some of my personal brand work as well as continue leading this larger organization? As far as the doubling piece, which was like really this galvanizing moment in the program, I felt like I couldn't even define what doubling meant for us. I even realized in the first session I'm afraid of doubling because it hadn't been sustainable. I felt exhausted and pretty burned out when we were starting. And the idea of doubling where we were in terms of our revenue. I Was like, if it looks like this, I don't want twice as much of this exhaustion. So I realized that I was actually kind of self sabotaging and wanting to slow down the growth of our business until I could get some ducks in a row. So part of being in the program for me was like figuring out what does growth really look like in a healthy way for us, and are there other things that maybe are better areas of focus beyond just trying to look at improving our revenue? So it was things like, do we improve our margins actually, and not just pure revenue growth? Um, do we double the number of offices? One of the things that Jeff and the team had kind of helped me to see was that we actually already had doubled our offices. I was thinking that we were only in New York City and they were like, but you're also in Atlanta too, right? And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess that's happening right now. So it just really shifted my perspective to take better stock of where I was and then to see better opportunities for moving forward.

Speaker A: Let me say this about these two. If you're listening to this, and the crazy thing, uh, we went on a retreat. So as part of this, we go on this retreat on their tree. Everyone kind of shares this. It's called the hot seat experience. But they share kind of what they're wrestling with and currently in the business, which is kind of cool on the retreat, because then they share this thing and then everyone kind of responds to it, gives feedback, gives advice. There is a. I don't know if I said this to the two, but there was a moment a few people in, and I was thinking, why am I even here? These two are better facilitators than I was. They're very incredibly smart business minds. And I was thinking, there's a moment m where I'm just like, literally, I have nothing to add. These two added incredible amount of knowledge. And I think that's the beauty of this thing is like, yes, there's a facilitator, yes, there's someone that's trained, yes, all that stuff. But then people kind of go, well, I actually went through a situation just like you, and here's what we did, and here's what I learned, and here's what I would do different. And I've seen these two specifically do that in multiple scenarios of people. I think we all need moments where we get to learn from other people's stories and experiences and this environment just naturally, it, uh, just naturally happened. And again, I got to be in the middle of it. I wasn't in the healthiest place at that moment. And the two of you were, like, leading the conversation. I'm like, this is really good. This is great.

Speaker C: It was fun. It was really fun.

Speaker A: It was.

Speaker D: And you're right, actually. I still think about stuff that Christina said in those different meetings and particularly at the retreat, that really shaped the direction of our business, which is so wild because you're in the nonprofit space. So all the things that you're thinking about, we have a totally different system of set of metrics that we're evaluating our growth and our progress by. But I was just like, oh, wow, it took you that long to do this thing? Or these are the kinds of questions you asked, or here's how you challenged your team or spoke back to your accounting person or whatever it was. And I was like, wow, okay, I could use all of that. So, yeah, genius by my side. It was really helpful.

Speaker C: Well, likewise. I just. My expectations were so far exceeded coming into the program with how much I genuinely liked everybody that was there. And you know that in a professional sense, that it's going to be a great group. But I just thought, wow, these people are brilliant, and we're all doing something so similar and that we are driven to grow something that we feel such ownership of. And I agree. I just would write down things that folks would say every single week. And you, too, Chanel, I remember we had a really great group early on in the program, and everyone had shared a lot, and you in particular had shared a lot, and you texted, I hope this is okay to say. You texted the group the next day and said, guys, I think I have a vulnerability hangover.

Speaker A: I remember that. I remember I should text, which is

Speaker C: so great because I actually felt similarly. But that's really what creates the community. And, Jeff, you said this in your email today to the plywood community, and I hope I get this right. But you said, I think ideas spark curiosity and vulnerability creates community. And when I read that today, I thought about our group and what you had said and that message.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's pretty unique to have a space to have other people speak into your business or the thing you're leading. Like, that feels vulnerable. How did you guys get there? When did it start feeling comfortable? Why did it feel comfortable? Because plenty of people have been a part of groups that, you know, don't have that texture to it. And part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation is because I've heard a lot of people's stories in the plywood community. Over the last three months. And everybody that's been a part of a layers group, which is that, uh, you know, the longer cohort has talked about it as being a transformative experience. And a lot of them have gone on to have successful things to like actually help them as a leader, help their organization get where they were going next. So what is it about the texture of it? Why does the group feel that way?

Speaker D: I will say that I've been a part of a lot of different mastermind type of groups and coaching communities. I mean, that's my world and my wheelhouse, both in terms of therapeutic kind of sided things and things that are more business related. Plywood People is a special organization. It's like the Plywood people, like the actual people that are attracted to this place, they're not normal, they're the most generous people. Like if I could say one common thread is like, they're people who have given their life to some sort of big idea and some sort of problem that they're solving. And because of that, they're just big hearted people and they want to help everyone in every way, you know, and so they have some area of particular investment that obviously they're building their organization or their business around. But beyond that, it's just like it's in the air that, you know, you breathe in this space is everybody's just like wanting to invest in you. So I feel like in those rooms it actually is easy to. At least for me, I felt it was easy to become vulnerable because you get the sense that everybody sitting around the table cares about you solving that problem as much as you do. You know, they're not going to solve it for you, but they're like, they want you to win. And just knowing that you have kind of that safe place, it allows you to just say the things that you really want to say and be really open and transparent about the difficulties. Because you know that they're not trying to judge you. They're like, yes. And like, got you. How do we move past that?

Speaker C: I agree. And I think, uh, it's really easy to trust people who are doing the work. No one in the room is just consulting on the work or considering the work. Everyone is doing it. And so I think when you realize everyone's been there or is currently there, you're like, all right, I can show my cards a little bit. And I think you get really great advice as a result. And I think people are able to see you and give you the advice you need, not just the advice that they Think you want to hear. I remember one thing that Jeff said after I did my hot seat pitch, and I was kind of waffling. I was like, I don't know, maybe I want to do this or maybe I want to do that. And, Jeff, you said something very simple. You were like, well, yeah, you just have to figure out what you want to do. Like, basically, you got to be a grownup. And I think you even said that. And I was like, man, okay. And I did. I was like, this is what I want to do. And now we're doing it.

Speaker A: Funny you say that, because I do think in the first session that we have after the first reading, we make everybody. I say this because we really do. We make people write what they want, how they want to double on the board. And it's a very vulnerable moment. I remember Chanel had never told any. I don't think you'd ever told anyone how much money your business had made.

Speaker D: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: And you were like. I don't know if I should say that or whatever. Was that right?

Speaker D: Totally. I was terrified to put it on the board because.

Speaker B: Whoa. It felt too much. It felt.

Speaker D: I don't know. I think there was a self consciousness. Yeah. Also, like, I think with putting that number on the board, there's also a great responsibility.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: It's like, how am I stewarding this thing that's coming to me? So that was part of the fear. And then also just knowing if I acknowledge that and we double it, then. Crap. Like, it was just like, that's a lot. And I'm still just like, poor black girl over here. Like, I don't. That's how I grew up. So seeing. It was hard to actually see myself as a real, like, business owner. You know, I think I've been thinking of it as I'm playing at business. And I was like, crap, that's a lot of money to be playing with.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker D: I think you're a big girl.

Speaker A: Well. And over the course of the year, we even talked about this. Some of those doubling dreams people have change. Like, that's not. It's not like it's written in stone or something. You know, like, it's a. Just that it's funny, that first session, everyone has to go out of their comfort zone to say this thing they want ultimately where it's at and where they want it to be. And I think that sets up, uh. Not everyone even talks about money. It's not. It doesn't even have to be about that.

Speaker B: But, yeah, give me some more real Quick, how could. Cause I think that's helpful for people. Like, what other ways could I double?

Speaker A: Yeah, some people want to double their impact. And what is that? So what does that mean? Some people wanted to double. They like, we have one site, and we want to go to a second site. Right. Or another person says they want to double their staff. They realize, like, they don't have enough people on their team, and so then. Okay, so that's what they need. So ultimately, you have to have more money to be able to do it. Like, it leads to a whole bunch of stuff. You know, one thing that Chanel said and hopefully this is okay. Is like, she's written one book. She wants to write this other curriculum even more than a book. Right? Is that okay that I said that?

Speaker D: Ah, yeah, totally. Uh, to do it now, but fine, that's great.

Speaker A: But, like, that was, like, part. And you're like, I don't know if I want to do this. Do I want to do this? But we put it up there and then. And it ended up being this consistent conversation we kept going back to. You know, I think most of us have these dreams that are written in a journal or something or, like, in our notes on our phone or whatever. Like, one time we texted it to one friend, you know, like, to see if they'd make fun of us or not, you know, or whatever. But, like, this is like a group, and everyone's like, okay, let's talk about what would it take? Okay, the next year we're talking about, what would it take to make that happen? You know? And it kind of launches into a whole bunch of. Honestly, again, it goes back to, like, for that to happen, what do I have to do to change in my life? How do I have to lead differently? What fears do I have to overcome? How much money do I have to bring in? How's it, you know? And all those things get really stressful, and it's like, okay, we're gonna go there. So, yeah.

Speaker B: And what changed in Yalls mindset? Like, as you started to consider. And that's like, the first lesson. Like, I remember when I read through it, I was like, oh, I really like that. Like, that first one. First you have to say what you want, which is hard to do, and you can talk about that if you want. But what kind of started to change in your mindset as you sat in the group, as you sat with that question, as you kind of grappled with that vision, that reality?

Speaker C: I think for me, you know, I had mapped out a vision for Growth of, uh, kids to leaders, to our board, or was in the process of doing so. And I had gotten some good feedback, some negative feedback, some mixed feedback, but ultimately we were going to go for it. Like, I had gotten everybody on board, but I was sort of wondering, like, well, is this actually a good idea? I came into layers and I, uh, learned. Yeah, it was. I think after a year of talking about it and pitching it a few different ways, I felt so much more confident that I'm not just, you know, rallying a group to come along with this thing because, you know, they like me or they respect me. But I think now with more input, with more feedback, with more careful consideration, it is a good idea and it is the right direction. But I think the group gave me the confidence and also more tools to turn it into an even better idea.

Speaker B: Yeah. What about for you, Chanel? Any, like, I don't know, what did that do to your mindset? Ah, again, take us into that experience for you?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I'm naturally a more scarcity minded person and so I tend to be more fearful when it comes to launching out into something new. I always remember this story of rock climbing and I was doing it with a team and I went first because I wanted to show everybody that it was easy to do and like, give them the confidence to do it. And so I just was like, yeah, put on all the gear and I, like started going. And everyone was like, yeah. And cheering and I came down and then the other people started to go and they said, do you want to go again? And I was like, hell, no. And I feel like that encapsulates my approach to life in general as I'm like the first one to be like, yeah, I'll go first. And then I'm like, but never again. And this was that, uh, moment where I think I could have sat back as a leader. I mean, we've built a pretty great business and I went first and we created something special. And then I was just like, cool, now everybody else start your therapy practice and you do it. And I was like, wait a minute, what if I go again? So this gave me, I think, that abundance mindset to kind of take on a new challenge. And it also challenged me to, like, think about, am I actually excited about this? I think part of why I wasn't moving forward is because I kept looking at what made sense on paper, but it wasn't really a compelling vision for me. And through the course of the year and the pushback and the like, honestly, lots of Times when they were like, you don't have to do that. Like, you could have somebody else do that or whatever. I was like, oh, okay, I get to just do what I want. That's a dream worth pursuing. So I felt more incentivized and encouraged and excited about my passion again. M

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Speaker B: M yeah, Jeff, what would you say, like, you've sat with a lot of people and helped with a lot of growth projects, but, like, when people. I think that's a common thing, like, this is what makes sense on paper, but you can tell they don't really want to do that.

Speaker A: It's so obvious. I mean, both of these two. It's funny listening to these two kind of. Of, you know, be out of body for a second and share what, in hindsight, like, what you experienced. Because it's like, it was very obvious to everyone else in the room what you did or did not want to do with the tone of their voice, with their body language, with. I mean, like, we're not actually that

Speaker C: smooth, is what you're saying.

Speaker A: Very clear.

Speaker D: I hid that.

Speaker A: I don't know if it's a good idea if we should go to Alabama or whatever. Like, that's what you're saying. But if you were in the meeting, everyone in the room's like, oh, she's going to Alabama. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it was not. But you don't know that without that feedback. I mean, that's. Everyone's like, of course she's gonna do this, and she's gonna crush it. Like, there is not a doubt in anyone's mind. And now the question we all have her was like, do you have the energy at this moment, or do you push it back a year or whatever? Who do you need on your staff? Or we ask questions like that. Or Chanel is like, similar things. Like, she would say something and it sounded like death as she's saying it. And everybody's like, are you sure you want to do that thing? Maybe you should outsource that. You know, she's like, can I outsource it? Everybody's like, I think you should outsource it. You know, so it is funny, you know, there's some times when people genuinely are in a moment of confusion, you know, but, uh, I mean, in both of your scenarios, if you think about each other like we saw these scenarios, and collectively, it's like. Like, it's so obvious, the direction forward, you know, but you don't have spaces. I mean, that's the. If you're listening to this and you're a leader, an entrepreneur, executive director, chances are you don't have an environment to just say something out loud, whether you agree with it or not, and safely say it and be like, this is something. I think, what do you all think about what I think, you know, or what I feel or whatever?

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: And a little bit different than just like, a therapist. Not just a therapist, but that experience. This is like people that are kind of walking with you and they can see things that you might not see yourself.

Speaker D: I think as a leader, it's like decision fatigue. All day long, you're just deciding you bear the burden and the weight of making all the big decisions all the time for your organization. And so you're wired to be pouring out and investing in other people. And when it comes to, like, what you want and your own vision, you're just tired. Like, I think we tend to give our best to everything else, and it's beautiful to have the space where someone's actually giving to you. Like, you get actually all those leaders that are great the way that you're great, and you secretly know that you're great, right? It's like you get that mind actually turned on you. And I think that's what feels so unique, is it's not like Christina was saying, it's people who are doing the work, right? Like, you get another executive director that wears the hat for a second and is like, yeah, what if I tried to solve your problems? Here's what I would do, right? And you're like, oh, thank you. It's not your accountant that's trying to solve all your biggest business problems because they're only looking at it from one side. I think that is what's so unique about the program.

Speaker A: I think both of you, there's been conversations we've had and other people in the group where you've either added to it or learned from. And I think oftentimes in our group, it's like, well, what should this cost, right? Like, or, uh, what should I pay? How much should I pay for this thing? This consultant, this person doing social media, this, uh. And someone would say, well, this is what they propose. And the other person would say, oh, I'm paying, like, three times that. That's a great deal. You should roll with that, you know, or do they even know what they're doing if they're charging them? You know, like, you get these kind of feedback loops or even what to pay your team like that. We've had conversations around that where it's like, you know, they don't know the person necessarily, but they know what they're doing. The position. What do we pay for that? What do you pay for that? You know, how much are you getting paid? We've had all those conversations internally.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that being immensely helpful. Okay, so this is a question for both Christina and Chanel. When you think about all that's covered in the program, because there's these different lessons, content, exercises, homework, all this kind of stuff, is there one topic that stands out to you that was the most helpful to you and why?

Speaker C: For me, I've thought about this a lot. I said earlier, and I really mean this. I think every month's content was so practical, relatable, relevant. I shared it with my team so often, partnerships was what stood out to me the most. We are so heavily focused on partnerships at Kids to Leaders. We have a number of church partnerships. We have programmatic partnerships. And the part of the content that I still think about daily was making sure that your partnerships are relational and not just transactional. And that totally changed how I thought about church partnerships. And I know that church leaders have so many nonprofits and ministries coming to them all the time, needing things. We need your volunteers, we need your money. And I just felt like, gosh, like we're just another one of those, how can we really invest in these churches that are partnering with us, Us support their leaders. And the other part of the content was making sure that you are confidently and assertively communicating the value that you bring. And what we bring to churches is a safe, established, highly effective local missions experience. And so instead of just leading with this is what we need from you, we now lead with this is what we're bringing to you that we hope you can partner with us in. And it's been a really important, uh, change, and I think has had a heavy impact on the success of our partnerships.

Speaker B: Partnerships. I remember that chapter, too. It's a great chapter. What about for you, Chanel?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think about people. I'm not wired as much as I'm like a relational person, I'm not wired to really think about the relational part of work. Like, I'm very work task focused. Right. And so one of the things that stuck out to me was, how do I Care for my team. So making sure that people are in the right places. But really what does it look like to like invest in my team over time? Whether that be through sabbatical type of offerings or different professional development or whatever it is. I just want it to be an amazing place for people to work and especially with the work that we do. And I imagine is probably the case for a lot of folks listening. When you're a social impact leader, it's probably an issue a, uh, cause, something that you're invested in solving. And so a lot of your problem solving and care energy goes to that thing. And you just expect that like everybody on your team is really passionate and involved in that thing. And for us it's mental health. And so everybody on our team really cares about New Yorkers actually having like exceptional emotional wellness.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: We want them to make their greatest impact. So we really are thinking about, well, how do we best care for them? I need to as the leader, take a step back and think about, well, how am I caring for my team so they can care for the people really well. And even just this past week, yesterday I was in New York, we hired a new staff member and it's because of the work that we did in layers that I was thinking about, you know, 30, 60, 90 days out. How do I create a really amazing experience for her in being a part of our organization. So how is she set up for success? But also how do we invest in her wholeness, her whole purpose, her well being so that she can be just an amazing person in the world, but also continue to be a great asset to our team. That was something that was unusual for me to focus on. I care about it, but didn't really think about it that way. And so they gave me a lot of practical tools and ideas.

Speaker B: As a nonprofit leader. How did being in a mixed group where it was other nonprofit leaders and for profit leaders, how did that help you and shape you?

Speaker C: Oh, I love it. I think sometimes in the nonprofit world we can get kind of insular and we give each other the same kind of advice. I love being in rooms with business leaders, small business leaders, entrepreneurs. I think it's just a different lens. Yeah.

Speaker B: And no, it seems like that's a unique positioning that plywood has as well. Like there's this and yes, you know, it's a certain kind of person. Like you said, it's like, God, there's this plywood people essence which say more about that if you want, but then also this. Like in a world of binaries, like you're either this or you're this. It's like inhabiting the. And maybe it's the kind of leader and the kind of organizations that matters more than nonprofit, um, for profit. But. But I mean, how would you speak to that, Chanel? Like being a for profit entity and leader in the mixed group.

Speaker D: Yeah. I think that there is that social impact thread.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: That really weaves us together. I think in the business side we can be in a lot of like business accelerators or those type of business coaching groups where it's just all about the bottom line and what makes sense to just between dollars and cents. Like that's the metric. Right. And I think what was so beautiful with having nonprofits in the room is I was really thinking about our overall impact and how we show up in the world, what we're contributing, thinking about some of the more abstract aspects of our organization and also just getting more creative. Like, I think it was really fun in the nonprofit space. It's like people are just developing really out of the box ideas. And it was just so cool to see what that looked, the detachment that some of the nonprofit leaders in the room had from m the organization. So by that I mean as a business owner, I'm really connected to it because it's my idea, I'm monetizing it. I want it to like work for me right in the nonprofit space. It felt like a lot of these leaders were stewarding something that was much bigger than themselves and they were like, I'm going to serve this organization for a time. And so that was just an interesting challenge to me. I was thinking as a business leader, what would it look like for me to build healthy minds NYC and think of it as something that could exist apart from me, beyond me after I'm gone, rather than just like, how do I optimize this and make it so successful during my lifetime? And so I don't think I would have gotten that in another type of accelerator or something.

Speaker B: And you talked about your impact expanding and thinking about in some different ways. Can you give us a little double click on that? How did your concept of like the impact you're having and growing that impact, how did that shift as you went through the program?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think I reconnected to some of the heartbeat of why we'd originally started. We started our practice because we really wanted to provide excellent, high quality mental health care to people who might not otherwise be able to access it. And um, for us, we're, you know, not so young anymore, but we were Like a young black couple in the city. And my, uh, husband's a psychiatrist. And we just wanted to serve folks that were like us, that really cared about this and maybe hadn't found places where they could get involved or get the care that they needed. And then other people that were really professionally driven and just felt like their mental health was, you know, the barrier to them actually being able to launch something meaningful into the world. And so as we were going through the program, I just was able to talk about that more and think about that more. And so part of our growth was actually we're building a second part of our organization. So we've started a new associate practice. We didn't accept insurance before. We have a new practice, uh, that will hopefully be accepting insurance sometime in the next year, just to make care a little bit more affordable for some others also, so that we can train and actually pour into earlier career clinicians to actually train them in our approach so they can start getting the real results that we tend to get. Clients. And then also we're thinking about, you know, new locations, and so definitely New York having Atlanta as well. Jeff kind of alluded to the idea of a new book. And so I, uh, wrote a book that's really about life planning and helping people figure out their life purpose. And I've been doing a lot of work with couples, and so I'll be expanding into doing some more writing around kind of how to support couples in building really strong marriages. So I think the common thread for me was just getting back to doing something that was more meaningful, that was more a direct response to solving a particular problem than just trying to, like, optimize. Optimize for profits. Right. And not that we were heartless and just trying to optimize for profits, but, you know, you have to make the margins work in order to keep doing it. And that wasn't a compelling enough reason for me to kind of get up every morning. And so I think I just feel a little more excited about what we're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Coming back to the root of it. Yeah. I mean, Christina, I wonder if there's something similar for you as you guys were expanding into this new state. Like, how did that bring you back to your mission and, like, the impact that you want to have? Because there's all these things you have to do to make something like that happen. But did that bring you back to the origin of the organization as well, or what happened in your mind and heart as a leader, thinking about the impact as you were looking at this Growth trajectory and journey.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it did. I grew up around the ministry of kids to leaders. I knew our founder. My family was involved in the early days, and so I've been part of it for a long time. And I've been on the staff, you know, when we first started thinking about this expansion, for 10 years. You know, when you do something for a long time in the social impact space, you can really start to get detached and disconnected. And in spite of your best efforts, it's easy to lose sight of it a little bit. But I think what I realized is when we decided to consider the expansion, I had to defend it repeatedly to other people to, again, to the board, to the staff. You know, why is this a good idea? Why wouldn't we just grow more in Atlanta? Well, why Alabama? And there are great answers to all of those questions, but I had to think about what the answers were. And I think in the defense of that idea, in the really figuring out, well, why, that did reconnect me to the mission. Because the answer is because there are kids there to be served, and no one is serving them. And we're the only ones doing what we're doing here in Atlanta, uh, and in the Southeast and in the country. That's the why. And it really trickled down from there. Now when I get in the car with our new expansion director to go over to Alabama, I think, oh, my gosh, I can't believe we get to do this. I can't believe we get to do this for work.

Speaker A: Sorry. Thinking about some of those conversations when you were building that out, I remember there was this debate internally on your team of a scarcity mindset versus an abundance mindset. We had to think through that and which employees think one way and which employees think a different way, and what way do you think, and how do you justify that? And also, we were concept like, well, who's actually going to be in charge of this? You're like, well, I'll just go to Alabama every so often.

Speaker C: Let's get in the car.

Speaker A: And everybody's like, uh, I think it's going to take a person. Do you remember that conversation?

Speaker C: I sure do.

Speaker A: I think it's going to take a person that's full time doing that.

Speaker C: There is a person now. His name is Adam.

Speaker A: Which is funny to hear you say, yeah, when I get. And I'm like, that was a big moment, like, for you to accept, like, okay, I'm gonna need to staff around it and stuff like that.

Speaker C: Well, the answer to what you want to do is complicated. And I think another cool thing about our layers group is I think everyone was a working parent. And so that's an interesting thread as well. Of. Yeah, I would love to be the one that takes kids to leaders to every state in the country. I also have a three year old and a six year old that I love and I want to see from time to time. And so. So you're balancing. And we all were of, uh, what's your dream job or your dream function within your job versus. I also have this high calling to be a mom and a wife and I want to be home and do that too. So what's the best balance of those things?

Speaker B: Yeah, growth. Not at the expense of your own self and your own family. Okay, talk to me about the executive table because I do think this is kind of a unique part of the layers experience. And Jeff, you can say where it kind of developed, but my understanding is you are bringing the new place of growth like you're pitching. Here's where we're trying to grow to some really gifted, amazing executive kind of people. Consultant kind of people.

Speaker A: Yeah. And getting feedback. I mean, at the end of the day, it's like you prepare for it. You prepare a deck, a slideshow of sorts.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker A: And you pitch your idea and. To a bunch of strangers and. Which is super intimidating, you know, like it's super scary. Because what if they think your idea sucks, you know? Or what if like in general, no one will say that even if they do. I don't think anyone would do that. But, but then, then they dig in with you. It's like six to eight people in a room and give you their thoughts, some real feedback real fast and you get some initial response. So you've been kind of in a lab a little bit trying to concept something and create something with some friends and you test it with your team m and maybe board members or somebody close to you. But then this is like putting it out there in a safe place. So it's pretty cool. So you sit in there for an hour with some strangers that are executives that are really strategic thinkers and they give feedback to you. So it's a. It's pretty cool. And sometimes they give you feedback that. That isn't helpful and sometimes they give you feedback that could change your whole plan, you know, so hopefully somewhere in the middle you have some action items coming out of it.

Speaker B: So what was that experience like for you, Christina? Like what came out of the executive table for you? And what was that? Was that like.

Speaker C: It was fun I didn't think it would be fun, but it was really fun. You know, I give a lot of slide deck presentations. I think that's different than giving a pitch. And the advice was consolidate this down just to five or six minutes and you can have slides if you want, I guess. But really this is a pitch that you need to memorize and I don't have to do that a lot in the types of presentations that I typically give. So really consolidating the ideas down to just five minutes and having something that was more flowing out of me, that was memorized, that I wasn't, you know, kind of reading, that's a different exercise. It's a really helpful exercise. And especially as you're trying to communicate your growth and expansion plans earlier on, you know, I hadn't done that that many times yet. I hadn't told that many groups of people why we should expand into a new state. It's really helpful to have to do that, to sort of be forced to do that. And we did. We got some great connections, some leads on the expansion, some great input on fundraising strategy. I'd love to do it again.

Speaker A: Yeah, like, who doesn't? I mean, on the front end you're nervous, but on the back end it's. It's like, oh, I'm sharing my vision.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: With people that don't know it and like, I'm getting access to some new communities or some new leaders or what could happen. And we don't ever know what's going to happen on that back end.

Speaker B: But, um, to that point, I just met a cool, very energetic nonprofit leader who started this program from scratch. And she was at the chick fil a one day conference. And we connected, I guess on LinkedIn. And I saw this video that she had posted where it was some big, you know, executive kind of person who was doing a keynote and then she's up there for the Q and A and she was like asking some kind of advice on sharing the vision and trying to get the word out and expanding it. And M. He basically turned it back on her. Like, you're doing it like you're, you're connecting with me right now. I am feeling your mission and you are carrying it. You are like the symbol of it and just keep being that. And that was so cool to see. Meeting her, hearing a little bit of her story and then seeing that's the first thing on her page, I was like, it inspired me. I was like, yeah, who else is going to do it? That's what we get to do. That's what we kind of have to do. But we kind of can feel like we're telling someone something that they don't care about sometimes, or we're taking up too much. Much airtime or space. But it's like, no, we're the ones carrying the banner for this mission. And so what a cool experience and exercise to like. Again, most people wouldn't choose to go through that, but it's like, this is what you need to kind of go to the next level and to get it in you and to have that conviction where you're like, I'm asking for this and who wants to join me in it? Like, that's amazing. Like, we all need that or the thing isn't going to go anywhere. Because if we're the ones leading it and we don't feel that conviction and we don't have that freshness in us to share it, and we don't believe that other people are going to get on the bus with us, then it isn't going to go anywhere.

Speaker A: Yeah. We used to have an advisor that came in. She would say, get pregnant with your idea. That's what she said. Like, what does that mean? And I'm always like, I'm a man. Can I say the pregnant thing? Can I use this? I don't know. But it was so clear because she would say, when you're pregnant with an idea, what happens when you're pregnant? Over time, people notice, like, they see it. They can't. You can't not see it, you know, that there's a baby coming, that something's about to be birthed, you know? And, um. And she was like, so when you have an idea, it's up to you to get. So make sure people see it and know that this is coming.

Speaker B: Love it. So what would y' all say to a leader who is listening to this, is considering layers? What would you say to them if they're like, I'm on the fence, I'm on the line. I'm not sure. What would your message be to that person?

Speaker D: Do it. Get off the fence. Do it. I really, truly think it's one of the best investments that I've ever made in terms of my personal growth and development, but also for our organization, the new ideas, the questions that I brought back to my business partner, who is also my husband. So that's always awkward, but it was great. I could be like, hey. The team said the layers grew.

Speaker A: The team said, you need to work.

Speaker D: Work harder. Exactly. They were like, you should work More. Uh, and I should relax more. But no, it was great. It was just such a valuable investment. And just the other night, I ran into another person who was in our layers group and was able just to have this five minute connection with her where instantly we were passing each other in a hallway and I was like, I know you. I see you. I know you. What's happening? And in that moment, what was so exciting is we both were still as invested in each other's success. And this is like months after we've been done meeting as we were the first meeting that we had together. And seeing Christina walking in today, I was like, yes, like, what's going on? Right. And I feel like you're truly making people who could be lifelong friends. I do feel excited. I've told so many people about the other organizations. So do it just even as a marketing opportunity for yourself. Right. It's something where I have no regrets. Like, every hour spent was a good one.

Speaker C: I agree with all of that. I actually almost didn't do it. I signed up and then I emailed Emily and I was like, nah, I don't think I can do this. I had some personal stuff going on and it didn't seem like the right time. And she said, well, let me just call you. And she called me and she very nicely said, somehow she said, no, I think you're gonna do it. I really think you should do it. And I hung up the phone and I was like, well, shoot, now I'm doing it. So I'm just so glad. I'm really thankful to her and I should tell her that, or maybe she'll hear this, but she just said, I just really. I think this is something that you're really gonna get a lot out of knowing you knowing your organization. I'm thankful that I had the opportunity. I would do it again in a heartbeat. We should do it again. Can I pitch that idea for layers Round two Layers plus. Yes.

Speaker A: Layers.

Speaker B: Alumni.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yes. Okay. And then knit.

Speaker A: Uh, listen, if you don't want to do homework, if you don't want to have deep, meaningful friendships, if you don't want your organization to grow, and if you don't, you know, then don't do it. Right. But if you're in a moment in time, which not everyone's in this moment, but if you're in a moment where you need to be pushed relationally and in your strategy of your organization and you want to become a better leader, it's not just leadership training, but it's like it's other people that are leading and they are going to push you. And you know, you're in a space where you're like, yeah, I need a little jump start again. I'm stuck. I'm ready for a season of growth again. Or I need some support in this season that I'm in. This is a good place for you. So anyway, I think our community is really beautiful in how they support each other. And that's the beauty of these groups in a micro story.

Speaker B: Anything else you want to share before we, uh, wrap? If there's anybody in your mind that you're like, I just need to say something to this person.

Speaker D: I think the person who feels like they don't have time. I feel like with a lot of our world right now, there's just a lot coming at us. I think so many of us are overwhelmed and there's like content for days. Every, like I can go into. We call him Chad. And around our house of uh, chat GPT. But I always think like, I can ask Chad to help me with like a business plan or something. So it's not purely just like, is the content good? I will say the content is really good in this program. But if you're like a leader, you just don't, you don't need more content. You need people. Um, like, you need real conversations with real people who can look you in the eye and that will say you blinked when you suggested that particular idea or when you were talking about that particular staff member. It's like your voice drops every time and you need people that are able to see you, notice you and hold on to your story and people who can also balance the hopes and dreams that you have for your organization with your individual well being. I think everybody in the layers groups tends to honor both of those pieces because they understand that the organization can only function if you're functioning personally. So I just think it's such a rare thing. So I know that you're tired and I know you're exhausted and I know you don't need one more thing. This is one more good thing. Like, this actually makes all the other things easier. So do this.

Speaker B: That's so good. Final word, Christina.

Speaker C: I think it's an honor to be part of this community. It really is. I think it felt like a breath of fresh air every time walking in here and you know in your head you think, okay, I'm going to a meeting. It's not a meeting. It was a break. It was refreshing. I always left feeling more energized than when I walked in.

Speaker B: Final word Jeff.

Speaker A: Now I got no more words.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: I have given all the words. You can read them in the curriculum.

Speaker B: You heard it here. And uh, yeah, we'll have groups running, just groups on groups. So check it out in the show notes and hope to see you in a layers group sometime soon.

Speaker A: This podcast is brought to you by wabe party npr podcast network and by our nonprofit plywood people.

Speaker B: W A B E

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