How Ladder became Apple's favorite app and made Hilary Duff the face of fitness

Speaker A: There's still arbitrage there. Hillary was having this massive moment in culture. Every millennial thinking about getting older and, like, I should start strength training. Right place at the right time. Self awareness is the number one attribute of a great marketer. How is your brand being perceived? What are the conversations around your brand? You can't address them if you don't know. They released a literal knockoff screen for screen, just Ladder. We created a campaign ripping off Macross PC, one of the most beloved campaigns of all time. Most marketing misses the mark because they thought was cle and they didn't really think about, like, what's the actual conversation that's happening around the product. Momentum is found, like, too late. For legacy brands to be at that inflection point, you have to be able to take a little bit of risk on it, data back, but you also have to be willing to take that swing.

Speaker B: I'm Eric Fulwiler, and this is Scratch, bringing you marketing lessons from the leading brands and brains rewriting the rulebook from scratch for the world of today. Hey, everyone. My guest today is Philip Edsel. He is the VP of, uh, brand and creative and all things marketing at Ladder, which is the world's leading strength training app. They have been on an absolute tear. We've been trying to get them on the podcast for a while, and this conversation does not disappoint. Philip has a really interesting and diverse background that he gets into a little bit. Didn't come from kind of like, you know, traditional agency or traditional marketing, but I think that's actually contributed to his effective and kind of challenger approach. Um, but Ladder has been incredibly successful in the time that he's been there. And he talks a lot about how he built out the kind of early marketing engine and found a lot of arbitrage in different places, did a lot of experimentation, but I love just kind of like the scrappiness and the creativity with how he built the first stage of the marketing engine. And then we also talk about kind of the next stage of the marketing engine. They just did this really massive and very successful campaign with Hillary Duff, um, as kind of a celebrity influencer, partner, endorser, which, of course, is not a typical thing of a challenger brand. And I loved hearing about just the stories from the inside of the business, sitting down with the CEO and the president to make the call on whether or not that they should do this. And there's actually a very actionable takeaway that comes out of this that I think can be really interesting for people around this idea of momentum and how momentum creates arbitrage, opportunity. And then the red thread that runs throughout this conversation, which is one I'm particularly passionate about, is why most marketing is bad. And so Philip shares his views on that and also what he has learned and what he has put into place at Ladder to make sure that that is not happening for them. So, without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Philip Edsel of Ladder. Philip, thanks so much for joining the show. How are things in Austin today?

Speaker A: Pretty, uh, pretty dreary, to be honest, but otherwise all good. We're, uh, we've got a bunch of construction going on in the office. We're building a new gym. Um, so that's fun, but you may hear, you know, the odd hammering or drilling every now and then.

Speaker B: So exciting. And I know, um, there's some World cup games being played in Dallas. I don't know if there are any in Austin, but are you guys doing anything with the World cup going on?

Speaker A: We. No, we aren't this year. Um, it's funny, like, you know, when you start to look into, you know, assets that are available for, you know, out of home or whatever, whatever sort of marketing channels you're looking at, um, it's crazy how, how brands swoop in, you know, and take over all the available assets for, uh, the World cup. But we're not, we're not really doing much. We're just watching.

Speaker B: Cool. Um, all right, so actually, before we even get to the icebreaker question, in your bio, there's a line. I just have to ask. I just have to ask you. So you were featured by Instagram for writing the first ever Instagram novel. What was that?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, novel is a bit of a loose term. Um, every. Every year in November, there's A Thing Called NaNoWriMo national novel writing Month. Um, um, I tried it. I don't know, maybe, uh, probably eight, ten years ago now. And uh, it. It is insanely hard. Shout out to anyone that, that, you know, finishes that, um, the exercise. But one year, this is like early Instagram days, back when they used to do community features and stuff, back when they used to have community team. Um, but I did a 30 day project where every single day I did a photo project with a, with like an actual, um, you know, actress or, you know, had like an actual character and was kind of following her and her story and then like sort of wrote these, uh, long caption and it was like basically 30 chapters of, um, this sort of photo novel. I had started this community called, uh, captions by writers. Um, back in the day when I was early to Instagram and early to photography. Um, and so that was just kind of like the project that, uh, that kind of was the result of that. And, uh, yeah, Instagram. Instagram featured it. So I'm trying to get back into writing these days, but haven't, um, been doing it of it lately.

Speaker B: Well, I know you got a very diverse background. You got the writing, you got the photography, you got the music background. And it seems like that has contributed to kind of the, you know, um, differentiated approach that you've taken to what you've done at Ladder, which I'm excited to get into. Um, but before we do that, the icebreaker question we ask every guest. What is one challenger brand that you're particularly passionate about right now and why

Speaker A: one is One is tough. Um, I'll say. It's funny. It doesn't feel like a challenger brand. I was actually looking at Yalls, like, top list earlier. Um, and so many of those brands on there, you know, it's like these are all considered challenger brands, I guess. Like, I, for me, skims, I. I naturally lean towards, like, brands with really strong art direction. Um, Skims Bandit, uh, nothing. I'm a big fan of their art direction and sort of their creative. But to me, skims just does such an incredible job of not only their creative and art direction, but hitting culture. Like, the exact right moment with the exact right talent and whoever they're featuring, Whether it's around the Olympics or, you know, they're featuring, you know, an actress from some show that's, like, going viral or whatever, they're just always on top of it, on top of the pulse. Um, probably helps when you have, you know, Kim Kardashian, uh, able to pick up the phone. But, um, yeah, big fan of what they're doing.

Speaker B: I'm always so curious about this, and sorry to go off script so early, but, um, I'm. I'm sure you have a perspective on this, given your background. And also, you know, I'd say Ladder is a. Is a brand that's done that really well. Kind of, like, understood culture around the category of what you're doing and has been able to tap into that and speak to that, etc. You know, culture and being able to understand, like, what's cool, what's relevant, is not something you can bottle up, right? It's not like you can get a report from somebody and, like, know what to do. It's not like you can look at a set of numbers, right? Like, Those can help inform, but it is a taste thing and a talent thing. At the end of the day, what is your. You know, and. And for me, it's always been either you have the person or the people that get it, or you don't. Um, do you have any advice for marketers that, you know, want to make their brands more culturally relevant, but maybe feel like they don't have the people that have that pulse on culture in the way that they need to? Is it just they gotta go find that person, or is there anything else that you can do to better understand the culture around your audience and to be able come up with kind of these more relevant ideas and campaigns?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's really tough if you're not that person or if you don't have those people on your team that are, you know, and it depends on sort of, like, which part of culture they're tapping into. You know, culture and algorithms are so fragmented these days that it's like, not everyone's seeing the same thing at the same time. But, you know, uh, our social person is really plugged into what's happening on, you know, the algorithms and trending on social media. Um, you know, I generally do a pretty decent job of just sort of saying top line of like, what are people talking about in culture? Like, every Monday morning I have a time block on my calendar, which a lot of times I skip. But sometimes, like, it's just sort of a reminder to be thinking about, like, what are people talking about right now? Like, what's. What's top of mind for people. And by the time most people think of it, most marketers think of it like, on their own without actually, you know, putting their head into it. It's probably too late. Like, they're. They're late to the. To the trend. Which is why you see a lot of cringe marketing that's like, hitting the sort of tail end of that bell curve. Um, and so, yeah, it's just something I think you have to, like, be, um, be a participant in. I mean, there are obviously resources. I'll give an early shout out to one of them. There's a newsletter called After School, um, that I, like, am obsessed with just, uh, because I find it fascinating. Uh, Casey Lewis is the journalist there. Um, and all she does is, like, basically just watch TikTok trends. Like, what are the middle schoolers talking about? And like, when. Then, you know, it's back to school season. Like, what are the high schoolers wearing? Like, well, you know, what, what's. What was the gift haul from Christmas for you know, 13 to 14 year olds or whatever. So I just find that like, that stuff fascinating. Um, not always relevant to what I'm doing, but at least like it helps me at least you know, sort of stay in line with, with what's happening.

Speaker B: Well, I am definitely going to be signing up for that and I think that is a big part of it. Right. Like I always think about what gets prioritized, gets done and what goes on your calendar gets prioritized. Right. So yeah, like it might sound too, but like, you know, put it on your calendar, put 30 minutes every week where like your focus and your priority is just to try to immerse yourself in the culture of the audience. I will, um, I'll put something else out there and I, I think, well, if people listen to the episode, they've definitely heard this, but I might have repeated it since then. Cause it's really stuck in my mind. Another great Austin Challenger brand Yeti. We had the CMO on the podcast and um, they actually structured their marketing team around communities and cultures that they, you know, want to sell to and they want to be relevant within. So they have like a head of hunting and ahead of fishing and ahead of like, you know. Yeah, they've, they've organized their team around culture, which I thought was a really cool thing that I think doesn't get talked about enough.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, just thinking about Ladder, like I couldn't imagine trying to be you know, sort of head of marketing or even on the marketing team per Ladder if, uh, I wasn't like a white hot user myself if uh, I didn't like show up every day and use the app and like, you know, um, actually like a fan of the product. Um, just because like you don't know what's happening with the culture if you're not like involved in it.

Speaker B: So yeah, 100%. You got your own dog food. Something everybody at Rival has heard me say a lot. Um, all right, so let's talk about Ladder. Let's get into it. So for those who might not know, can you give us an overview of Ladder, what it does, where you're at, et cetera?

Speaker A: Yeah. So Ladder is a strength training app. Um, it gives you a weekly plan from an expert coach. So if you think about ah, the sort of landscape of fitness apps, everyone knows some version of a fitness app, probably, you know, a peloton or the like. Um, pretty much every fitness app is the same in that they're all sort of content libraries of like on demand videos. So essentially like glorified wrapped youtubes, um, of like, okay, today I'm going to go on, I'm going to search 45 minute hit hit and hills ride or like an upper body workout or whatever I feel like doing today. Um, we, um, built Ladder from like an entirely first principles, um, sort of different mindset which is really like personal training. Um, um, and the problem that we solve is not necessarily like people, um, that need, need workouts or like need the motivation to get to the gym. Like, I don't know if you guys have seen YouTube, but there are millions of free workouts on YouTube. It's not like people don't have access to workouts. The problem that we solve is that most people don't want to think about what to do in the gym. Um, they just want to be told like, here's the plan. And they also want to be able to trust that it's from an expert. So on ladder, you sign up for a team based on your preferred training style, whether that's pilates and strength or bodybuilding or kettlebells or, you know, um, whatever it might be. And you have a coach and your coach programs the week of workouts for you every single week. So on Sunday night, your six days of workouts drops, um, and you get to sort of decide when you're going to do it, um, in what order, how many workouts you're going to do. You kind of make the plan your own, but you at least know that every time you show up at the gym or at home, somebody's going to have the plan written out for you. And so it just solves that brain damage. Um, which if you think about it, most pretty much every single fitness app, they're not solving that problem. Like if you go on their websites, it's hilarious. It's like we have thousands of different workouts or hundreds of different trainers and like that's their main, you know, sort of like key benefit. But that's not, that's not like solving anyone's problems. Like, I don't need a thousand workouts. I need one workout and I need to be the right workout for today that I'm, that I'm doing, that I know will progress me. So, um, that's kind of the, the sort of framework of how we built ladder. And then the experience is really where like the magic happens. So when you start a workout, you start playing your own music and uh, your coach is in your ear, your music kind of ducks down and your coach is leading you through the whole workout with voiceovers. There are videos you can look at in the app, like little looping demo videos from the coach. But, like, if you, you know, I, I, I'd, I'd say, you know, I, I don't really look at the videos very often. Like, I don't look at my phone when I work out. Um, um, and so it's really cool because you feel like you're at the gym and, like, you just have your personal trainer right there just talking you through stuff. Um, and it's, it's a pretty, pretty impressive, uh, experience.

Speaker B: So I am like your Bullseye icp, You know, maybe not. I don't know if you're, how much you're focused on the uk, but in terms of, like, who I am, yeah, I'm Bullseye. Right. Like, I'm, um, a gym rat. Always been an athlete, you know, played sports through college, et cetera, did competitive crossfit back injury, and now I just kind of like, lift weights at the gym. Um, and so, you know, historically, and I'm going to ask about AI, which obviously I'm sure you have a good answer for, but just talking about my own experience, you know, historically, I just programmed my own workouts. Right. Um, and at one point I was actually a certified personal trainer. So just be like every week, basically do kind of like what you guys are doing. Um, and now I actually find myself doing a bit of that, but actually using ChatGPT. Right. And there's, of course, limitations, and I don't know how sustainable it's going to be because of course it's going to probably just give me the same stuff for a while. Sure. Um, but I'd be curious how you all are thinking about not just the product development to differentiate, but also the brand development to differentiate against the people that either, you know, don't know about Lauder yet.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or like me now know about Ladder, but are like, how is this going to be different than what I can get from AI already? Um, but I mean, one, I'm definitely going to check it out because I heard about you guys through, you know, Veer and wanting to get you on the podcast. But I'm definitely going to be trying it now that I now that I've seen it and heard a little bit more from you.

Speaker A: Cool. Yeah, I know a guy. I can get you a code. Um, but, uh, no, I mean, that's a great question. It's funny, you and I probably have a very similar background. I was, uh, you know, played sports, um, and all through high school, got recruited to play in college. I was a CrossFit coach for a while, although you wouldn't know it from looking at me. Um, and uh, so it's not like I didn't know what to do in the gym. Like I'm very comfortable in the gym. Uh, and you know, you'll find that like there's so many coaches that use ladder, uh, and personal trainers, um, um. And so it's not necessarily like the obvious, like you know, casual, uh, fitness consumer. Uh, when we started it was mostly like serious fitness consumers. The thing is it doesn't matter if you're a coach and you're a pro or if you're you know, sort of new to strength training. You don't want to do the brain damage of thinking about programming your own workout. Um, because ultimately like the, your, your ideas will, will get stale. You'll end up doing the same things. You'll, you'll know, you'll kind of hit a wall. Um, and so to have somebody just tell you what to do, even if you're a coach like that programs for other people all day to be able to show up and just turn your brain off is like um, a pretty massive um, you know, benefit uh, for, for even people that know what they're doing. So I was telling somebody last night that like you'd be shock company. You know, uh, former athletes and coaches and stuff are using ladder in terms of AI. You know, I think it goes back to the point that I just mentioned of. Ah, it's not like the, the, the issue and the problem that we're solving is not, you know, more workouts. Like the, everyone has access to workouts. Doesn't matter if you have chat, GBT or YouTube or whatever. Um, you know, it's like it's not hard to necessarily build a workout. I think the, the big issue is you've got all these, you've got a ton of fitness apps, um, that are AI coaches and like whoop, launches their AI coach and chat. CBT does their whole commercial about fitness and whatever. And I think at the end of the day what's really cool about what we're doing is we have created a platform and a product that is um, is based on a real human expert's knowledge. It's like, you know, our coaches have um, been coaching for, you know, many of them, 10, 15 plus years been doing one to one coaching, group fitness, all that sort of stuff and they take all that knowledge and they distill it down into really uh, incredible Programming and then on top of that we use, or as a user you get to use AI to sort of like um, uh, basically enhance that experience. So whether it's tracking your workouts and logging your weights and progressing over time, uh, or the nutrition feature which is a whole nother thing we can get into but like we, we use some incredible AI, um, tools for, for that feature. Um, it really feels like the best of both worlds because you're getting the expert, um, who's, who is programming a progressive plan in six weeks. So instead of chatgpt with saying like here's a workout for you to do today, you know, or I'm sure it can build you a six week plan too but you've got a real uh, expert that has done it, that has been there. Um, and adding that sort of um, authority like I think is really important. And so what we do is like, like we're not trying to fight AI, we're trying to use that to leverage our coaches um, expert knowledge. And I think like it's a huge reason why people are obsessed with their coaches and with ladder is like they actually trust the person. And you know, in marketing, uh, I can't tell you how much like um, not only like slop do you know, AI slop do I see but also like the backlash to AI, um is pretty wild. It's like even people that use it don't want to see it in their products or their marketing necessarily. So um, we're not quite there yet. But um, I mean I think it's, I think it's great but I think we've built something that's really special and sort of like a hybrid of both.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's probably similar to how we think about you know, our business and just the agency model in general is like you know, if you're a mid sized, if you're a coffee shop in Austin. Right. Which would be probably your equivalent of like maybe a passive goes to the gym a little bit but not really, you know, not kind of like a true um, fitness person let's say, um, then that stuff is probably going to get replaced. Right. Like the coffee shop in Austin can probably have AI do their marketing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you know Xerox who we just launched the global rebrand for, like they're not going to have AI do their marketing but they are going to have a company that kind of blends the best of what humans can do with the best of what technology can do. Um, and that's kind of future I think. Yeah. Go Ahead.

Speaker A: No, I was gonna say it's interesting. Like, you know, I'm seeing all these, uh, new AI companies and tools that are essentially like taking, you know, your brand guidelines, whether that's like your actual visual, uh, elements, your logos, all that sort of stuff, or your copy or whatever. And then those sort of agentic, you know, tools are essentially like recreating those and repurposing those for all the different channels. Because, like, you know, this is a, is like head of an agency, you're doing a rebrand, you're giving them essentially the tools and, um, the PDF that spells it all out. But you're not going to be there when they launch a new channel and need to design X, Y and Z. Or maybe you are, but most agencies sort of handed off. And to have these tools that take it from there and then can actually follow the brand guidelines and distill that into all these different channels is super helpful. Same thing about how we think about what we're doing, which is we have expert coaches that are doing the creation, the programming, and you can trust them. But then there are all these AI tools in the app that are going to enhance your experience, give you better, um, insights, all that sort of stuff that our humans necessarily can't do, um, on a scale that we'd like to do itself.

Speaker B: Cool. Um, I'm going to jump around a little bit because I think actually this is a good segue to talk more about, um, the marketing that you're doing at Ladder. Although we're definitely going to come back to chapter one, which the title of chapter one of the Brief is Most Marketing is bad. Here's why. So we will get there, but I think this nicely tees up and people will have in their mind the business and the product of Ladder. And so let's match it with kind of the marketing and how you're thinking about it. Um, so Ladder, definitely a challenger brand. You guys have been scaling, um, you know, very successfully. Um, I guess let's start with, like, what has kind of been the playbook, what have been kind of like the big pillars of what has driven the success of the brand and the marketing so far?

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Um, we created an app that is very contrarian by nature. It doesn't look like all the other fitness apps that are out there. Um, and is because, like, we felt like there was a better experience. That's sort of how we treat our marketing too. Um, maybe it's just because, um, I don't know, that's kind of how I Think about marketing is like, I don't want to do the same thing as everyone else. Um, uh, and so, you know, we. We treat our marketing from a pretty contrarian perspective where it's. We're not looking at what. What other brands are doing in the fitness space. We're not looking at, um, necessarily what's trending. Although, you know, a lot of times there's obviously overlap and we try to stay relevant. Um, I think it's more so, like, what are the actual insights that we know to be true and like, where. How is that gonna. How do we sort of turn that into campaigns and messaging that resonates? I think, um, we'll get there later, uh, on sort of why. I think most marketing, you know, fall short of that. But it's just because they're not. They're not operating from, like, real insights or real truths or they're not willing to say it or they can't say it because they're, you know, their product doesn't, uh, you know, live up to it or whatever it is. So I think for us, it's just like our marketing is sort of built like our product, where we just want to operate from first principles and say what we believe and, like, kind of stand on that, um, and do it in a way that feels fresh.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. And maybe we can just. Let's just mash these two concepts together. Because, of course, it's impossible to separate why most marketing is bad. And you're, as we like to say, strong opinion, strongly held, um, about how to do that differently with what you've done for Ladder in the playbook that you've put in place. Um, but it's interesting, you know, having all these conversations, all these interviews. So many of the success stories, whether it's a brand overall or a specific campaign, come from. Yes. Like the right customer insight. You know, I think at the end of the day, all growth comes from delivering better, different value to the customer. And I think most bad advertising comes from. And you're kind of saying the same thing. Everything not being focused on that. Right. Anything that is not about the customer or you get the customer wrong, um, creates a higher likelihood that your advertising will be less effective or just bad. But thinking about some of the conversations that I've had, and also, and I'd love you to react to this, um, there's not just, like, starting from the right place, right, like operating from the right insight, but there's also kind of the role that the CMO has to play in, like, Protecting the development of the campaign and the advertising from all of those things that might try to pull it away from what that insight was or what's going to deliver value. Right. Um, and I think that that is easier. You know, I sit in kind of the middle or on the fence between talking to challenger CMOs like you and then also talking to same as Xerox or like bigger incumbent businesses. And I think that the challengers get more better advertising in part because there is less in the way or less that is pulling the marketing away from the customer insight and what's going to add value. Um, so I'd love your reaction to that. And how much do you think about your role? Whether intentionally or maybe you just haven't thought about it like this, but this is actually what you do of like, it's not just where you start from, but it's also kind of like protecting the development of the work from anything that's going to pull it away from where you started.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great insight. My answer is going to be exactly the same, which was, yeah, uh, in a lot of ways, I mean, there, there are a million, um, obstacles and things that make it harder to be the Challenger brand, but one of them is not layers or red tape. Um, and that's like one of the biggest things that, uh, or one of the biggest advantages that Challenger brands have is like, you know, we can be off the wall, we can, we can troll a little bit, we can like, you know, be a little bit controversial, um, where we need to be or we feel like it's right to be because, um, you know, we don't have like, the legacy of, you know, 50 years or whatever it is of doing things XYZ way. Um, for me, what's really amazing is like, our marketing decisions essentially get made by me, and then I take it to our CEO. And he, um, is incredible because not only does he understand all the inner workings and, you know, mathematics of how the business works, but he has a great marketing mind too, and he gets it. He's just like, totally, I understand that. Or he thinks like, yeah, it's huge. Um, or he thinks like, well, I feel like the focus right now is xyz and he's one of his superpowers is just being like, ruthlessly prioritized on, like, what matters at the right time. Um, so he's. He's a really good sounding board for that. But basically, like, that's the, that's the process. And then I take it to my team and obviously we Iterate on stuff, but, like, there wasn't really like a lot of hoops to jump through in order for us to get to the idea. Um, and so there's not a lot. There's not a lot I have to protect it from, thankfully. Yeah, um, other than like external reaction.

Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking. Like, you think of a traditional big incumbent corporate organization, there's like a gauntlet that the CMO has to run to try to keep the idea on track as it gets pulled by legal and financial and like, highest pace, how was it highest paid person's opinion internally and stuff like that. Like, you don't have a gauntlet, you just have one step.

Speaker A: Yeah, the, uh, the first, the first like, big, uh, campaign that we did in terms of like, not only sort of production spin, but also just like reaction and distribution that it got, um, was. It was like, I guess two years ago now we, uh, Peloton released. We had been seeing inklings from like, Peloton, uh, of like mentioning Ladder or like, you know, internally and like just some, Some interesting things. We're like, okay, we're on their radar. We kind of knew that, um, we obviously didn't feel like we were competing with Peloton, uh, at the time, um, or didn't really just think about them very often. But they released a beta in September. Um, I don't know if it was maybe 2024. And uh, it was basically like a not like literal knockoff of Ladder. Like, they didn't even change the colors. They didn't change any of the ui. It was like screen for screen on every screen, just Ladder. Um, and obviously they thought where Peloton would get away with this, um, and didn't realize that they were dealing with, uh, you know, a somebody that can be very petty and a troll, but be a challenger brand that like, we're not, you know, legal, you know, uh, is not knocking down our door being like, you can't do this. So, um, it was funny. If you go to joinladder.com I think it's flattered. Um, you'll see the whole story. And we pulled all the analytics because there were a bunch of developers and their entire product team that signed up for Ladder using their Peloton emails, which was like, again, sort of just hubris in general. But, um, we logged all their sessions and you could see they were looking at all these buttons, they were clicking all these screens, doing all this testing and essentially ripping off the app. We came with the receipts to Back it up. Um, and so we launched. Basically, they launched that in September, uh, got on the beta, downloaded it, and could see it was the exact same thing. And so we essentially just created a campaign riffing off the old Macros PC, uh, which is, like, one of the most beloved campaigns of all time, um, with, like, the personified Peloton instructor and then, like, our instructors. And so when they released, uh, the actual app to the public, which was like, I don't know, maybe three months later, actually, it was really funny. We were doing a giant product. We had our whole team here. We were on set doing a giant production with our coaches when they announced the app was, like, live to the public. And so, like, I basically told, you know, our head of video, uh, I was like, all right, you're directing now. I gotta go deal with this. Because within 30 minutes of them launching the app to the public, we dropped our campaign, which was like, six of those different videos. Um, and so all that to say, like, yeah, I'm pretty sure any other brand's legal team would have been like, you can't do this. Like, we had, we had Peloton, but we, like, you know, we had it pixelated. You could obviously tell kind of what it said, but it's pixelated. And so we were pretty cheeky with it. Um, and we were expecting some version of Cease and Desist, but I, um, think, uh, we kind of had them on our terms of service. There shouldn't have been in our app ripping off all of our playbooks.

Speaker B: Love that true challenger move. So what else? I mean, this has been great because there's so much to talk about, but I'm conscious I have not been following the script at all, just because I'm so curious about the stuff that you bring up. Um, so I know we're not going to be able to get to everything, but maybe, you know, we were going to talk about the Hillary Duff campaign. I think some of the stuff that you did in the early days, the TikTok arbitrage, the internal creator program, maybe just share, like, a couple of the more successful, um, um. Or, like, bigger impact things that you've done, whether it's campaigns or tactics like that.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: You know, what else would you share that you think has been, like, really exciting, um, about how you've grown the business?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I can't, uh, start anywhere other than our sort of social growth engine. Um, when I came on the ladder five years ago, uh, I probably should have asked this. When I came on, um, I hadn't been in tech before, so I didn't really didn't know how important growth was. Um, so thankfully didn't know to ask this, which, um, I'm glad I didn't at the time. But when I came on a ladder, we weren't growing. Um, we didn't really have any way to grow. We didn't have any really resources to grow. Um, and so, uh, we needed to figure it out, um, pretty quickly. Um, and so thankfully our CEO, Greg, um, he had a few thoughts on potential channels that we could go find, um, some real acquisition levers. And ultimately the one that stood out the most to us was organic TikTok. This was 2021, 2022, um, which it was still the wild west there. Brands were too scared to get involved there. They couldn't figure it out. They tried to spend money and it didn't work. And so they just wrote, uh, and we couldn't go spend money on meta to like, go compete with the biggest brands in the world on ads. So we were like, all right, we gotta go figure out organic TikTok. Um, we had a coach that had come on. She was actually, she's actually a CrossFit Games athlete, um, and had an Instagram. She's an Instagram influencer. Didn't have a TikTok. So I was like, this is perfect. Let me basically, uh, create your account, give me all your footage and I'll just start posting as you. And she was like, fine, I don't want to do it. That sounds great. Um, which now sounds like insane to think about. But, um, so I started making. I like just basically got in the weeds. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna figure this out. I have a video background, like a creative background. Like, you know, it's basically a video game, which is how I kind of treated it. And like within a couple weeks she was getting like millions of views on her videos. Um, and it's not because I'm like the best TikTok creator of all time. She's like very fit, attractive, has a, has the cutest like two year old daughter in the world who's at the CrossFit gym with her. And so the comments just blow up on like, hey, that's not safe, you can't do that. Or the, or the opposite, which is like, you're the most inspiring mom to be able to take your daughter who can watch you, you know, um, get stronger, et cetera. So it was just like, it was like, ah, algorithmic, you know, crack, essentially. Um, and so we were like, okay, there's a, there's a game to be played here. Um, and it's like, not as hard as, you know, maybe most people make it out to be. And so I think within like a few months she had like, you know, over a million followers. Um, and so we were like, all right, let's go, let's go recreate this, um, this. And then she was like, yeah, I'll take over my account again, like this sou. Great. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Um, and so uh, we basically went to go find a face for the brand on TikTok. It was my thesis of the time that like, you know, most people didn't want to follow brands on TikTok. They wanted to follow personalities and people and creators. So we kind of like went through a couple, landed on one, um, who was like immediately explosive and um, she just got it. And like the weirdest thing about the algorithm of TikTok is like, like it's not necessarily the people that you think would be the viral face, but TikTok does this weird thing where it sort of deems creators, uh, as like winners or not winners. And like, it's sort of the arbiter of like who's going to be successful in the algorithm. Um, not to say like, you can't have creators that create outlier videos, but then there are certain creators that just, for whatever reason just always go viral. And so we found one of those, long story short, we sort of recreated that process, created a ladder creator program where we now have, you know, um, we have five full time in house creators and then uh, a handful of like part time creators, um, that, you know, maybe maybe half a dozen to a dozen of them that are creating content for ladder daily and just like producing outcomes. I think the, the most exciting thing about that, um, not only was the growth of the business, like the, the whole thing took off, we applied that formula to, to Instagram. Now Instagram is like sort of leading the way I think just with some of a lot of the TikTok, uh, ownership changes and algorithm changes, um, Instagram is definitely leading the way for us. But um, it works across both. The most exciting thing though, which like we didn't really plan on was we did this Hillary Duff campaign, um, which we can get into. But you know, we've got Hillary's post which went super viral. We got all of Ladder content which did really well. A lot of it, you know, uh, went, went pretty viral, got a couple million views. But then we pointed our Creator team at, uh, the content. We gave them the content. We. They started making green screen videos and reaction videos and all that sort of stuff. And they themselves, like, matched the virality and the views that all of the rest of the campaign had. Had done. So, um, it was the first time we ever, like, just said, all right, you guys, like, go. We're applying our sort of growth team, which is like our TikTok and Instagram creators, to our, like, brand marketing, um, that we're doing from, like, uh, you know, the brand side. And so that was hugely powerful. And now we're like, all right, let's go do that for every campaign, which is like a whole new unlock for us.

Speaker B: I'm getting. I do want to talk about the Hillary Duff campaign. Um, I'm getting a lot that's like, you know, I just got my hands dirty. I just started doing it. Let's see if this works. Is there any, like, how do you think about kind of experimentation and innovation? Is it just you're kind of following your nose or your taste about where you think there might be an opportunity? Is there anything structured about how you're coming up with these ideas and doing things that you don't know whether or not they're going to work?

Speaker A: We, we do, uh, I mean, obviously we do a lot of experimentation. I think, um, like I said, our CEO Greg is just ruthlessly, um, prioritized on, like, what is worth experimenting on and sort of what isn't. Like, what are the 10x moves? And that's kind of what we're always looking for versus, like, you know, what, what's going to make incremental change? Um, and so there is that opportunity. Like, yeah, we'll go experiment on that stuff all day until we get signal that it's not working. Um, but then once we get signal that it's working, that's when we actually are pretty good at building structures around it. Like when we, you know, it's funny, like, now it feels like I'm seeing more and more brands do these sort of creator programs. But, like, when we started, like, we literally built the thing by just, like, trial and error. Like, there was no other brand doing that sort of thing. Where we, like, brought in a cohort of 10 creators, we paid them a retainer for a month just to see what happened at the end of the month. And then, like, kind of if, if they made it past, you know, um, you know, whatever that threshold was for that we were sort of measuring, then they go on to month two, and then, like, their new, um, sort of standards that we're holding them to or outcomes that we're looking for. So we just kind of. And then we launch a new cohort of creators just to like, kind of get more and more people on the flywheel that are the winning sort of viral faces. Um, but like, nobody was doing that at the time. Uh, I mean, even now I think, like, brands are launching sort of creator armies, but I don't know that they sort of test them the way that we test them. So a lot of it's just trial and error. It's messing up, but it's like being willing to move quickly and also glean learnings from, um, which is again, like where I think, uh, one of Greg's strengths too. But, um, yeah, we just kind of follow our nose and, and think about where are those, um, 10x potential moves.

Speaker B: So let's talk about the Hillary Duff campaign. So maybe just a brief overview, but I'm sure we'll add some notes, uh, or some links in the show notes for it. And I guess my question on that is, um, Hilary Duff as a celebrity influencer, endorser, user of the product. That is a move that is not the, hey, we're just gonna go figure out this TikTok account from scratch. We're gonna test, you know, it's not kind of like this scrappy, we have no budget, we're just gonna go figure it out type thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You could even argue that that type of thing, not the way you did it, but like, that move is almost more of like a at scale incumbent to go get a celebrity, um, to partner. So I'm curious, like, I guess where I'm getting to is like, how are a lot of what we come across when we talk to or work with Challenger brands is the whole, like, what got us here won't get us there type of thing. Right. Like, you can, you can do the scrappy stuff to a certain extent and that will probably always be a lot of like, who you are, the DNA of the marketing team, et cetera. But at a certain point you do need to do stuff that's going to have bigger scale. So how are you thinking about navigating that next level and that kind of inflection point? And how did that fit into deciding to do a campaign like this?

Speaker A: Yeah, so because the business had grown so much over the last, you know, three, four years on the back of our sort of social engine, we'd reach like a very specific type of person or like a very specific audience, um, somebody that's like tapped into the fitness algorithms on Instagram or TikTok is like following that content. We're like saturating that person with ads, um, that are all like, you know, short form iPhone, all that sort of stuff. Um, and so what we realized and what we discovered was like, man, the business is doing really well. If you are in fitness, you've probably heard of Ladder, even if you haven't tried it. But like, when I go to the gym, there are people that are still writing things down in a notebook. Ah, there are people using, you know, watching a YouTube video of how to work out or like using a different app. Um, and so it's. It. It was very clear to us, um, that even though our, we had, we had penetrated a lot of like this social algorithm and like a lot of, of a certain type of Persona, that we still lacked mainstream awareness massively. Uh, and I think the Hillary Duff was a massive sort of step change, I think, or level change for that. But, um, I think to a certain extent we still feel like we're in the process of crossing the chasm into mainstream. And so for us it wasn't like, we need more users, let's grow. Because we had the growth engine that was like solving that. It was. Even though, like, we obviously want to grow and find more users, it was like, we need to go, we need to like, cross over into awareness of like, just, you know, the mainstream audience. Like, and we want to hit culture. We want to hit, um, the zeitgeist of what people are talking about now too. And so when we launched or when we were looking for, okay, it feels like celebrity is, is one way to do that. Uh, I personally think like, celebrity is a pretty terrible strategy most of the time. It's like the, it is like the legacy move of like, let's give this face a bag and like, hope that that drives outcomes and like, generally they take the bag and like, you know, everyone forgets about whatever the campaign was. Um, so there's a huge amount of risk for celebrity, um, especially for a challenger and like startup brand. Like, this is easily the biggest swing we've ever taken at marketing. Like, it's not a, was not a cheap, um, endeavor. And so, um, we all, like, you know, our CEO, our president and I were in a room like, all right, are we going to do this? Like, are we really going to take a serious shot at. And we were like, we all feel in our gut like this is the move not because it's celebrity, but because it's Hillary So we, I mean, we, like, we. We had a short list kind of, but really it was like Hillary and kind of nobody else. Um, it was. We. We knew not only the fact that she was a mom, she's a mom of four, which is insane. Um, she, you know, uh, it was obviously having. It was like kind of the start of this, like, moment that she was having. She announced her sort of new record. We knew that was coming. We assumed or kind of knew that, like, there was probably going to be a tour on the back of that. Um, and so we were like, okay, there's like, a bit of inflection point coming. She had been pretty outspoken about strength training. Like, that's part of her story. She, I mean, she posed like, uh, you know, almost nude on the COVID of Women's Health, like, a few years ago, talking about her transition from cardio to strength training, especially after she had had her last child. So we're like, okay, messaging is aligned. It feels like culturally there's. There's an opportunity there. Like, this feels like the right swing to take. What we didn't know was like, so we. We. We did this deal, or we, like, we signed a deal. And what we didn't know was, um, in sort of preparation for her record, she was going to be on Call Her Daddy. And, uh, basically every major, she was on the COVID of, I think Glamour and said the second coming of Hilary Duff. And it was like, all this stuff happened right after we signed this deal. And then we found out from our team that she was going to be on the COVID of Sports Illustrated right after our campaign had launched. And none of that stuff we could have planned. Like, there's a. There's a huge amount of luck involved. Like, we did everything we could to get it to go viral and get the right eyeballs and hit the right channels and all that sort of stuff. But, like, there is a bit of an element of luck involved. Um, we just kind of like, tried to sort of position ourselves at the right place at the right time. And she was like. She just happened to be the perfect person for it. And so we can go into any part of that. I think the one thing I'll say is, like, we had built this growth engine that was sort of like arbitraging, um, you know, social and organic TikTok. Um, you know, how much of that arbitrage is left is up for debate. Um, but what we found is like, even though celebrity is like, very much a, Like a traditional legacy media strategy, there's still arbitrage there. And like, I, I don't. I don't. It'll take me, like, a lot longer to think through, like, who. Who is actually capable of that arbitrage. But, like, Hillary was that, like, yes, she's a celebrity, but she's also having this massive moment in culture where she's going viral and, like, people are. The whole nostalgia thing is, like, circling back. And every millennial that used to watch her growing up is now, like, thinking about getting older and like, oh, I should probably start strength training, you know. And so, um, yeah, it was just like, perfect. Right place, the right time.

Speaker B: Yeah, it makes me think about. And probably the takeaway from me is like, there's so much to momentum. Like, we're spending a lot of time kind of researching and actually building, um, tech and the service offering around momentum. Right. Like, we call it predictive category intelligence. How can you understand what's changing, what's driving perception and behavior change within a category before, you know, the, um, dashboard KPIs light up? Like, how can you look forward as opposed to in the windshield, as opposed to the real review mirror on this stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that is one of the things that challenger brands, like, our whole model is like, understand what challengers do differently and try to build that into. To services and, and tech that we can actually bring to our clients. You know, challenger brands tend to just head that back to where we started this conversation. They're in the community, they're in the culture. They just have the taste and the understanding of, like, what's cool kind of before it is for the mainstream, before it shows up on those newsletters. Um, but this idea of, like, what is carrying momentum within the category allows you to kind of get ahead of it and find that arbitrage. And it's essentially kind of like what you guys did, you know, partially gut feel and partially. Maybe getting a little bit lucky. Um, but you kind of found momentum that created the arbitrage that. That's kind of how it's. It's, um, uh, boiling down to me in a way that I think I could take away and potentially could be actionable for people. Does that sound about right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah, I think, um, you know what, one of the things that that like or Challenger brands can do that legacy brands can't do is they can take more risk. And I think in order to find momentum, it requires a bit of risk to be early and like, you know, if you find momentum to, like, brat summer, it's like, well, yeah, that trend is absolutely cooked everyone and Their mom is doing brat Summer. You know, it's like, um, usually momentum is. Is found, like, too late for legacy brands. And so, like, in order to be at that inflection point of, you know, the momentum, you have to be able to take a little bit of risk on it. And obviously you need things like you're talking about which are data backed and, like, can create an informed decision on risk. But at the end of the day, like, yeah, you also have to be willing to sort of take that swing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. Um, all right. I'm conscious that I jumped around a lot, but this has been fascinating and I've learned a lot. Is there anything from the original brief, uh, that you really wanted to talk about that we haven't gotten to in the last few minutes that we have?

Speaker A: No. I mean, I thought all the questions were great, so I'm happy to talk about whatever.

Speaker B: All right, cool. All right. Well, I mean, I think we've covered a lot. Like, there's so much good stuff in here. Um, I'm just taking a skim through. I'm excited.

Speaker A: I think. Um, cool. Yeah, no, you definitely should. I think, uh, maybe I'll just provide a little bit of clarity around sort of the original thesis of this combo, which is like, most marketing is bad.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, because I'm aware that that sort of puts the bullseye on. On me a little bit. Um, it's mostly like a commentary on just like, self awareness. I think self awareness is the number one, um, attribute of a great marketer of, um, just like, being aware of not only of what's going on, but also, like, how are. How is your brand being perceived? And like, what are the. What are the conversations around your brand? Um, because you can't either address them or sort of refute them if you don't know. And, you know, one of the things that we try to do, um, you know, or we do, I think, really well is like, our members are North Star. We do, uh, m. Like multiple surveys a year that are not like, trivial surveys. They're 45 minute, uh, long, um, surveys that, like, our members do by the thousands. Like, it's crazy. They're like, so passionate about it that they'll give us all this feedback. We have team chats where, you know, when you join a team, you're in there talking to your coach. The coach is in the team chat daily. They're not just like celebrities. They're actually involved in answering questions. But we're getting so much data and hearing what people are talking about. About programming or about how the app works or new features or whatever it is. So like, we don't listen to what our, uh, investors tell us to do. We don't listen to what trends are happening and what's happening in the fitness space. We listen to like, what do our members actually want from our app and our experience. And that's what drives not only product, but marketing. And I think, like, to sort of sum up why I think like most marketing just misses the mark a little bit is just because they like, don't. They've like thought of a concept that like, they just thought was clever and they didn't really think about like, what's the actual conversation that's happening around the product or the brand. Um, and so that's kind of like my overall thesis. But I'm not also not saying that we're the absolute best at it. I think there's always room for improvement. Um, so. So I just think like, how many times do you watch, uh, a commercial, um, insurance, uh, commercial. And you're like, this literally could just be silence and I'd be happier than listening to whatever this is.

Speaker B: So most of the time, most of the time I got to dig this up. But I spoke at a conference and um, the guy went before me, Fernando Machado, who is the CMO of Burger King. He had a slide in the deck that was like they ran an experiment where some brand. It was something where it's like they just posted a picture of a cow for 30 seconds.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it was like a certain percentage of ads actually did worse than just the picture of the cow. That didn't have to do with the brand. And like no creativity to it whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, but it is one of those. I mean, I think about it all the time, but it's also like that stat on driving where it's like 80% of people think that they're an above average driver. It's like, you know, probably 80% of marketers think that their marketing is above advertising and yet the stats don't line up. But I think that that is the answer. And like most things, it is simple but hard.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Um, but I love that. All right, so, um, I think that's a great place to wrap up the main conversation. Let's do a quick lightning round if you are up for it before I let you go. So just kind of like quick one hit answers. If your brand were a pizza, uh, what type of pizza would it be?

Speaker A: Um, oh, brand. I don't know. I think like, personally I go like Neapolitan because we're like bougie and artisanal, but we don't have the patience to like wait around for it. So it's like, put it in there for 30 seconds and let's go.

Speaker B: What is the best marketing campaign you've seen recently?

Speaker A: Uh, this is, this is cliche but because like the World cup is happening probably I like the Adidas. It's a funny because like Adidas and Nike are like kind of, you know, battling it out for the campaign. But, uh, I love the Adidas campaign.

Speaker B: Check it out. What's your biggest pet peeve in marketing?

Speaker A: Copyright. Bad copywriting. Uh, like when you see a teaser that says like, something's coming and it's like, dude, that is just the, it's so bad. Um, it just, it gives me nothing.

Speaker B: What advice would you give to your younger professional self?

Speaker A: I think it would probably just be, uh, maybe like, don't, don't. I mean this is easy to say in hindsight, like, don't stress about stuff, uh, as much. Like, you know, if you are, uh, well intentioned and you're, you know, you're good at what you do and like you're passionate about what you do, like it generally you'll find the right solve. Um, unfortunately for me, it just takes like hours and hours of stress about it before I get there. So.

Speaker B: And lastly, what is the biggest missed opportunity in marketing right now?

Speaker A: Um, maybe just brand social media. Like, I just think brands are terrible at social and I don't know that we're like, I mean, I think we are good at social occasionally great, but there's still just so much like the algorithms are changing so much that it's so hard to like keep up with. What do people actually care about? And I think most brands just post to hit a quota, not because, like, it's actually useful or entertaining or helpful. So we try to, we try to at least stick to that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Great. All right, Philip, we are going to leave it there. Thank you so much. This has been a really enjoyable and insightful conversation. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me. It's been fun.

Speaker B: Scratch is a production of Rival. We are a growth consultancy that builds challenger brands strategies and capabilities to disrupt categories. If you want to learn more about, uh, us, check out wearerival.com. if you want to connect with me, email me at ericearrival ah.com or find me on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe, share with anyone you think might enjoy it and leave us a review. Thanks for listening and see you next week.