115: Approaching Multi-Regional Outbound, Enterprise & More (with Sylvia Farag, Founder at Farag Consulting & Coaching)

Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode. Today I have the absolute pleasure of being joined by Sylvia Farag, the, uh, founder of Farag Consulting and Coaching. Um, Sylvia, thank you for coming on. Thank you for spending the time with us today. Um, would you like to do a bit of an, um, introduction to yourself for the listeners?

Speaker B: Sure. Thanks Dave. Um, so, yeah, ah, my name is Sylvia Farag. I'm a sales development consultant and coach. And basically I work with businesses to help them build exceptional teams. And that looks very differently for depending on the business I'm working with, it could be, you know, what does hiring look like for them? What's the ideal candidate profile? All the way to how to measure success for their teams and then promotion processes. And then I also do leadership and rep, uh, training and coaching.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, yeah, that's a, um, well it's fantastic to get you on. As a fellow self development, um, individual myself, I always love it when we get, um, people on that. So focus on our field. Um, one of the ways that we always start these, um, podcasts is by asking the very simple question, um, how, um, uh, sorry, what does redefining Outbound mean to you?

Speaker B: I love this question and I feel like I could answer it in a bunch of different ways, but today I'm going to say that redefining Outbound to me means breathing fresh life into leadership and into sales development leadership in particular. Um, I feel like so often leaders can forget that they're meant to manage numbers, but we're actually leading human beings and sales development's notoriously known for having fairly sizable teams. I know that's obviously changing these days. Um, but can you could easily begin to start seeing folks as a resource. Right. So keeping that human aspect I think is really important. Even like just as an example, making a change to a team, being really considered, if it's an ill timed change or anything, that's going to have significant effects on the team, um, that'll affect their morale, that'll affect their motivation. And I genuinely believe that that does show up in the quality of phone calls and emails that the team sends. So to me it's all about SD leadership and being really considered there.

Speaker A: Love that. Absolutely love that. And previously you worked for Facebook and Google.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: just, I suppose I'm really curious to know about your experiences, um, at such large organizations and reputable organizations. How was it building the sales team there and kind of like, what did you learn from that experience?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, so yeah, I guess prior to doing my own thing, I was at, I was at Google, I was at Facebook, um, I spent a bunch of time at Salesforce and then my most recent role was at Stripe. So yeah, big tech and B2B in sales, um, and then specifically at Google and Facebook. Um, so I got to see those businesses really in the early days right at their starting off point. Uh, I think what particularly makes those two companies unique is just their focus on product and engineering. Um, and there's always a tinge of that kind of culture even within the sales team. So some of the key lessons I learned there, look, there are four of them. One is a focus on SMB and just how important your run rate business is. Like it's genuinely the lifeblood and having enterprise accounts and big logos, I can think that's really important in obviously validating the quality of your product. But it's going to be SMB that gives you the volume and keeps you alive as a, as a business. Um, and just to like illustrate that point, at one time while I was at Facebook, my individual SMB target was equivalent to the enterprise and agency team put together just to sort of explain and showcase the scale there. And I'm sure that all looks very different now. Um, but that leads so well into the next lesson which is to optimize for scale. Um, and one of the things we did was a focus on doing a really high touch experiment, say on 200 inbound leads that were given, you know, purpose sent individualized replies and then learn, collect data and uh, then see how you can optimize and scale that to the tens and thousands of inquiries that we would get especially from the long tail of the business. So optimizing for scale data is essential. There's no decision that is made at ah, either of those businesses without it being backed up by data. I remember having a conversation with an enterprise sales leader, uh, uh, at Google in the early days and he's like, I can't actually speak to you about anything until you fix up your Salesforce dashboard and then come back, make sure the data is clean. And it's not like we had sales ops there, right? We were still small, still really nimble. Um, so we were the people that also had to work that out. Um, and then of course we all know this is an obsession with hiring, like a true obsession with hiring, um, in the most unique way. And we all know how important it is, right? Like you make great hires, your team's thriving, you know, leading them is a piece of cake. You love your job, everyone's happy. But making the wrong hire can actually cause for a lot of struggle later down the track. So m. They have a really unique way of hiring across both Google and Facebook and hiring's done by committee. It's not just one person that gets to make the call. It's interviews are very specific and very intentional. Interviewers are trained on how to conduct their one interview. Um, so it's all very intentional and yeah it's just not up to one person. Like and this is like a very famous Google story. But back in the day and this happened with me as well, um was Larry used to review every CV and he had to give the yes before moving that person on. Um, so yeah it's obsession with hiring.

Speaker A: I love that. That's so interesting. I picked up on one thing there. Um, around you know really having to back any decisions with data. Um, you mentioned at the top of this just how like people focused sales development leaders like should be or like that sometimes that's something that's overlooked. Um and I totally agree and I think um, one of the struggles that I sometimes find found is making people or like emotion based decisions. Um, and. But then you know that you know like you know a. Right. But then also but not having the, the data to back that, that up and especially when it comes to you know that's forever. Fortunately we have a, A uh revenue operations team. That's forever. My battle is they, you know they're only making decisions on data and the. And whereas I'm often making decisions on um or you know I suppose I try and consider the human side more probably more so than I should. Um. Yeah. Can you speak on that at all from, from that experience that you had in terms of like how you've, like how you'd handle those kind of scenarios?

Speaker B: Yeah. Look, I think both are really important and what probably frustrates me the most is when there isn't the data at all and a leader is potentially making a pure gut decision. Right. And it could be on anything. Um, like an outbound strategy or whether or not we should experiment with a new prospecting tool and it's just off one person's gut. I don't think that's enough of a data pool to substantiate a decision that will have day to day impacts on a team. So I don't know. I think even just having multiple people as part of that conversation or having a sense of what the data is is better to me than no data at all. Um, and then even if the metrics give you a different answer to what you end up choosing to do. At least it's intentional. Like it's not like you're fabricating data to back you up in a way that's disingenuous. Right. Like you're using the data to help guide the decision either one way or intentionally go the other way because you know, your experience day to day with the human beings around you is obviously what's most important.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, you spoke then about uh, SMB and actually how important SMB is. But um, I was actually really interested on the enterprise side because I'm sure you've got like fantastic experience around there. And um, as much as I definitely agree that um, you know, you can't avoid SMB and they, they can be, can generate that run rate. I think, um, everyone's always trying to break into the big, the, the big companies. Um, so I was just wondering um, I suppose like what things like you advise bearing in mind when targeting these bigger companies, um, how, how you kind of advise approaching the accounts and maybe with specific reference to one of the biggest challenges that I like, um, certainly my enterprise team talks uh, to me about which is just the amount of people. Um, so yeah, like I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so I haven't finished watching Succession yet. I'm probably like the last human being on this planet who hasn't finished the season. So don't wreck it for me. But as I was watching, there's a quote in one of the episodes and Roman Roy is in the car and he's chatting to someone and he's like, yeah, we've done our due diligence but think of this as undue diligence. And I thought that was just hilarious, like just going that extra mile. And I don't know, I think that's really relevant to breaking into a enterprise account because there is the, the typical research that you would do as you're prospecting into any big account, right. Either you're taking a top down approach or you're going um, to from the bottom up and trying to navigate your way through and understanding their challenges that way. But I think for these really large brands, um, you need to go the extra mile. And more often than not the decision makers are uh, super senior, very experienced, already have a sense of what potentially works and what doesn't work for them. It's so easy for them to just be like, oh this is what I did at my previous company or if you know, if they're a long time googler. I've worked with this particular vendor before. Let's just implement that for this team as well. Um, so you can't escape building genuine relationships. And that's with any enterprise sell. Right. You need to find opportunities to get in front of those decision makers and build genuine rapport with them. Um, showcase. What about you uniquely stands out. And then what about the product stands out and phrase it to them in a way that they might not have heard before. Um, because, you know, we get so many prospecting emails, the regular cadence is not going to cut it, I would say. Um, and you need to try and get in front of them in unique ways. And it could start very much on LinkedIn. It could absolutely start with, you know, the typical emails and making a phone call. Um, but shifting to finding a mutual connection within that account and multiple of them where you can potentially try and get an intro for, for a meeting is probably where you're going to find the most success.

Speaker A: That's great. And, um, often when I'm m. I'm running these, I'm speaking to people based in the United States, in Europe, and I think one of the unique, uh, positions for yourself is kind of, um, from what I can see, you were managing teams that were targeting APAC and those kind of territories that I think often I'm, you know, I'm not seeing much advice on. So I'd love to specifically pick your brain on that as well. Um, can we start with China? Because, um, I can see that, uh, at Stripe, you, you. It looks like at stripe, um, you were looking after, um, or targeting China. Well, how was that? Like, what were the, um, you know, what were the differences and kind of like, where did you see success there?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so prospecting outside of Australia and New Zealand in APAC is like a beast in and of itself. And then specifically for China, um, there were three main ways that worked for us. Um, one was physical events, so super old school going, switching physical business cards, um, which was beginning to sort of pick up towards the end of my tenure at school, Stripe, as things were beginning to open up a little bit more, um, and just getting out there and attending as many as possible. Um, the other was using, which was really interesting, using very specific chat forums. Um, and my reps would introduce themselves on certain B2B forums, um, almost like in a similar nature to how you would on LinkedIn, um, and then they'd add value to conversations. Exactly. Like, as I was reflecting on my experience there, it really is the same way that we would advise someone to comment on LinkedIn is how the team would engage in these chat forums they'd, you know, position themselves as a subject matter expert on all things payment and then keep an ear and eye out for whenever potential prospects were expressing those pains and try and jump in and make a connection that way. And then the third channel, which is like almost the expected means of communication, is using WeChat. Um, yeah, it's just how we would communicate before a phone call there'd be multiple wechats and it's an instant messaging service for people who might not know what that is. Um, and it's just the expected means of dialogue. All of these are an absolute nightmare to capture in CRM. So tracking activity at a data perspective was challenging, but it's, it's what worked

Speaker A: for us that's really interesting. And so, so like what would WeChat be the equivalent of? I suppose like I really. Yeah, um, it's not something that I've ever used before.

Speaker B: I guess it's the equivalent of like WhatsApp or Messenger.

Speaker A: Okay. Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, so, so that obviously was working for you out kind of in these APAC regions. Would, were you seeing similar success on you know like WhatsApp or texting in um, in other regions that you're managing as well or is that some advice that you do give?

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, so yeah, throughout Asia we, we would use WhatsApp as a follow up. Um, probably wouldn't be our first touch. Um, we try and lead with an email and the team was always more comfortable with leading with an email, which I completely understand. It gives you something to base that conversation often and all that good stuff. Um, but my perspective on texting in general, both within Asia and even in Australia and New Zealand, is that it's totally okay to do. I genuinely think prospects often prefer it. And at the end of a call like they, they could easily say, oh, just, just text me to follow up. Text me your details, text me what you want me to do. Um, but I just wouldn't recommend it as a first touch. Like if you've got at least in Australia, New Zealand and then in, in uh, parts of Asia, it could totally fly as a second touch. But if you've got a mobile phone and you're not calling it, um, yeah, you need to like sort of rethink your outbound strategy there because a phone call will always be to text, but a text is okay to do.

Speaker A: That's awesome. And um, you've um, I'm sure. Well, I hope maybe, maybe there's some um, people tuning in that have, maybe they've recently like they've recently been asked to target the APAC region or um, they. Yeah. That maybe they're moving into that kind of role for the first time. Um, is there any other kind of channels or like little tactical tips that you can give for any other like particular countries or, or um. Uh, yeah, or the area in general that, that um, has helped you before.

Speaker B: Yeah. So each ah, country in APAC is going to be its own conversation and I'm not going to go through all of the details as it's a big region. Right. For Anz and like for Australia and New Zealand it's super similar to the US and UK and in the way that we prospect, in the way that we have conversations, um, you know, Australians either tend to be a little bit more laid back or super like direct. Uh, depending on who you're speaking to. Um, I think the only other country that could potentially be worth highlighting is Japan. Um, because obviously communication there is done in a very deliberate and unique way and there's lots of cultural considerations that need to be taken into account. So events would help us. Webinars would help us. My team would host their own webinars. Um, email is absolutely used as a first touch. Um, and it's written in a very formal way, almost like you would be writing a physical letter. And even that we used to do literally like on paper, print them out, put them in envelopes, go to the, to the mailbox and, and pop them in there. Um, so we would take that kind of an approach and it was highly effective as an outbound strategy in Japan. Um, and then we would follow it up with a phone call afterwards. Um, and then obviously networks and relationships are golden, um, and just key to breaking into enterprise accounts, particularly in Japan.

Speaker A: Amazing, amazing. Um, I'm going to ask you a question that's a little bit selfish as well. Um, you know I manage three different regions right now and I think you know it sounds like you, you very used to managing people that are handling different territories whether they be based in there or not. Um, one of the challenges that I see is, is really trying to make sure that um, globally all of our processes and procedures are aligned. Um, you know that makes things simple and for you know, cross collaboration in terms of different teams, like having all the nuances often doesn't um, go down very well. Um, but at the same time you know there are cultural differences and you uh, know I'm even seeing for example I us uh, core Connect rate is, is much lower than our ah, um, UK call Connect Rate. I think that's very industry standard. So it just that you know, in order to have the same amount of conversation we just simply require a higher activity on, on calls in the us. Um, no, Germany is like very, very different. You mentioned that formal um, outreach style. Like it's, it's the same in like in Germany from what I've experienced. So, so how, how or if you've got any advice on like balancing those two things out, like is it you know, do. Yeah, um, I'll leave it as open ended as that I think.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, do you know how often ah, this doesn't work in apac? I feel like that would be like second to my introduction in, in certain roles that I'd have be like I'm Sylvia, I'm doing this. And also whatever it is that you're talking about is not going to fly for us in apac. Um, so I totally feel your pain. I do believe though in the fundamentals being aligned globally. So things like there is a particular cadence that we're using and this is what the cadence is and it's in whatever tool, outreach tool that you're using, um, that hiring is exactly the same and that the candidate profile is as close and as aligned as possible globally. Um, where it makes sense to do that, uh, promotion processes, all the human stuff that relates to a team. I think the fundamentals can all be aligned and then where things differ. Uh, so I think I was working once and uh, there was a cadence that was being suggested and it was coming out of the US and it was a 17 touch cadence over three weeks, me and my team, but all my reps and my leaders were like, it's just too many touches for us. Even an Australian wouldn't be able to cope with that much outreach. Um, it's got to be reduced. We need to bring the number of touches down. We need to reduce that amount to like uh, either two weeks and decrease the amount of touches or space them out over a longer period of time. Like it just needs to be adjusted otherwise we're going to break trust with the prospects. And I think for those things it's okay to allow for nuances. Um, so in the details but not in the overarching framework or structure, does that make sense or is that too high level?

Speaker A: No, that, no that totally makes sense. I think it's, it's more, yeah, it's validation because I think I'm, that's my general feeling. It's just then like what is that line? And I think that's probably case by case. But you know, we're, we're debating on things like promotion criteria and you know, the career, like career paths and um, and things like that right now and, and uh, like KP, I suppose KPIs, um, uh, from, you know, on lots of, lots of different, like individual things. Um, but I'm sure you'll tell me it's, it's, you know, it's case by case. Um, for the best part.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is case by case. I do think promotion criteria though is something that can be highly emotive, um, for reps, and rightly so. So standardization there or at least having the strongest why as to the reason things could potentially be different globally and then metrics. Uh, yeah, that's challenging. Right. Um, because you do want consistency at least in the approach. But then you've got to fact factor in for whatever it is, number of leads, number of prospects, territory size, all of, all of that stuff. Um, but if you're taking in the same considerations across the board, then uh, the numbers themselves might be different, but the framework's the same. Right, okay.

Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah. One final question on this because it's just, you know, I've got, it's got all my cogs turning and I'm hoping other people will benefit from this as well. Um, leaderboards and cross collaboration. Was that something that you really pushed or was, you know, were the fact that so many people were so regionalized, was it just not like kind of something worth investing the time in? Um, because it's a current, again, a current debate. Right. Like, you know, we did we run an activity leaderboard and then the, you like the US team are rightfully just so much higher than, than anybody else and you know, then it. Could it become demoralizing for the UK team and then, um. And obviously if like market conditions just alter and change or like the difficulty of a particular market is different, is it worth throwing them all into a leaderboard and like getting them to compete in that way? Um. So love your thoughts on that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so leaderboards and the competitive aspect of SD is fun and also has its own consequences. Right. Um, and I won't go on that particular tangent. I'm going to stay on this, this path for a second and it can work. I think regionalized, like competitiveness or um, uh, leaderboards make a lot of sense. So for the Americas or a mayor in general, and then EMEA and apac, you could potentially get away with that. But global competitions I haven't seen be successful. Um, I think it's just too broad. It's an absolute nightmare to keep track of everything even if your CRM is rock solid. Um, it's just hard to track and, um, keep it all honest and sometimes it doesn't make sense. If you did have a team in Singapore, for example, and they were up against a team in even the uk, they will never be top of the leaderboard. Um, or they will. And then you really need to ensure that, uh, the quality is there and, uh, it's not just about getting to the top of the board. So, I don't know, potentially consider it to be a bit more regionalized rather than a global approach.

Speaker A: That's fantastic advice. Thank you so much. And, um, speaking of which, I've actually also, um, we're very fortunate. We've had a bunch of, um, new SDR leaders in Cognizant's team. Um, one in the US and two in the three in the UK over the past two months. Um, so I'm interested in just, I suppose, your top tips if I'm hoping, um, they're tuning in already. Um, but, um, I'd love to know, like, what your top tips are for sales development leaders. Um, uh, maybe. Yeah. Who are new into the role.

Speaker B: Sure. I think one piece of advice, and, gosh, I could say a billion. Right. But just one is to just take an extra beat. Right. We operate at such, uh, a fast pace. It's the nature of sales development. And I've spoken to leaders who have led teams outside of the function and then have had their first, first gig as an SD leader and they'll turn around and be like, my goodness, how is everybody operating at this pace? So there is something unique about how fast things work in sales development. So just take an extra beat. That's not a profound piece of advice. It really isn't. Um, but especially when you're making big decisions. So big decisions are, uh, things around hiring, things around targets, things around promotions, and basically anything that affects the day to day experience for your rep needs to just happen with consideration and with intention, not because you were tired on a Friday afternoon and you quickly had to make a call on something. You know, you had to decide whether or not you were going to hire this person and you made a gut decision without speaking to anybody else, because you didn't just take that one extra beat. And I'm not saying to slow things down and take weeks to make a decision, but genuinely, sometimes an extra 30 minutes in the moment to either collect the right data or speak to some of your peers. Um, and slowing down for just a second, checking in really clearly with your gut can save you months of heartache down the track. So that would be my advice. Don't get too caught up in the pace of sales. Dev.

Speaker A: Love that. Um, and I was chatting to them um, today about the importance of one to ones because we were talking about time management, task management and uh, I tried to, for me like one to ones are so incredibly important. I think it's the one time that we're promising as leaders our um, our team, like, uh, that, you know, we're giving them that undivided attention and that, you know, like, we've given that promise to them. Um, can you give us any advice on like effectively running one to ones? What would, what would kind of be your recommendations there?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think this happens like with leaders all the time, particularly internal promotes. Right. You're chucked into an SD leadership role. It's likely your first leadership position. No one's trained you on the key leadership 101. You're expected to somehow go from IC to managing, you know, a team of six or eight or more than that. Um, and just even the basics like how to run a one, uh, one on one can often be left to miss. Pieces of advice. Do your best not to move or cancel it. M. It's your opportunity to set expectations with your team and this is under the assumption you've already met with them casually and you've had a coffee or gone for a walk and this is your first scheduled like for real one on one. Um, I structure them using the three P's, which is people, pipeline, process. Um, so if you're ever unsure on what to do on your one on ones, that's a good sort of framework to operate by. Your rep should be coming with their agenda anyway. Um, but people, you're checking in with them as a human pipeline. How are they tracking towards their target? Um, and what support do they need? And then process what's working, what's not working. And it's also an opportunity to deliver feedback or to receive some feedback yourself and to be really open with that. Um, but yeah, I just say we so often throw people into leadership positions without providing them any training, without providing any coaching. And just the magic that can happen with those foundational skill sets in place, uh, can make all the difference for a new SD leader.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, Sylvia, this has been fantastic. Um, unfortunately that's all the time that we have, um, for today. And I know how busy you are, um, so I can't, uh, you know, I wouldn't want to take up any more of your time. It's been so insightful for me. I feel like I've really, um. I've just learned so much, um, from you, and I hope the listeners have as well. Um, if people want to find you, where's the best place if they want to, um, speak to you more or maybe speak to you about any of the consultancy that you offer?

Speaker B: Sure. LinkedIn's the best place to find me. Yeah. Sylvia Farag.

Speaker A: Perfect. Perfect. Um, and thank you for everybody that's listened, um, to today. We'll, um, have the next one very shortly. Um, but, yeah, thanks again for your time, and, uh, we'll speak to you soon.

Speaker B: Thanks, Dave.