60. Unlocking the Potential of Asynchronous Communication w/ Chase Warrington, Doist

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Speaker B: Welcome to the Remote first podcast produced by Modern Leaders Every other Tuesday. Listen in to hear from large or innovative companies enabling an equitable and distributed workplace experience.

Speaker A: In today's episode, I'm having a chat with Chase Warrington from Dueist, a company that is defaulting to asynchronous communication. I'm sure that by now the word async must have been added to some sort of a, ah, dictionary of remote work. That way of collaborating that does not require working in the same time window as your colleagues. I definitely strongly recommend companies to adopt a collaboration framework that embrace that way of working. But there are certainly limits to the work and interaction we can do asynchronously versus what should be done in real time. So I wanted to have a chat with you, Chase, about that. Thank you for joining the conversation.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for jumping in too. I love all your opinions about remote work. You're like an experienced remote worker. You've been in the area for a long time now and I would really like to chat with you today about synchronous asynchronous communication because I think you and I have a lot of opinions about this and I thought it would be really great to hear more of your thoughts on it and exchange on a topic. So, really excited to have you.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. It's funny to find someone else that's so excited to talk about communication styles. But yeah, I'm all in on this. So let's do it.

Speaker A: Let's just start like from the high level point of view of this. Do you know, for you, is there Like a definition that you have about this whole topic of asynchronous communication, which is now like super present online because everybody went remote last year and then now this year and people are thinking about, okay, how can we leverage this? Everybody says, okay, we have to do async now. And this is like the hot word, which is a very weird word. What to you is like asynchronous communication?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think when you boil it down, like it's just the definition is somewhere when you distinguish between the two asynchronous and synchronous. Asynchronous just means in short that you don't expect an immediate response. There's lots of things that dovetail off of that, but at the very core of it, it's just whether or not you expect an immediate response or not.

Speaker A: Right. But then like I've seen a lot of people seeing asynchronous as just in that description, thinking that any direct messaging app that we use on a day to day at work would be considered asynchronous. But for me it's, it doesn't make much sense because then if you type a message and you naturally, because of the culture of text message, you think that people will reply back to you like as soon as you see the messages. Which is not asynchronous.

Speaker C: Right, Right. Yeah. We say at uh, doist a lot like you can, any tool can be asynchronous or synchronous in reality. I mean, video, you know, talking face to face is one thing, but any sort of, any form of text tool could really be one or the other. It's more about how you use it. And then those tools can lend themselves to one or the other to making it easier to communicate in more of an asynchronous way or more of a synchronous way. But yeah, it's not like, you know, it's not all or nothing when you're picking these different tools or picking a different style. Like there's often like a spectrum and you can, your team can live at different points within those spectrums.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that in general teams should have like a system in place where they use maybe text messaging for like once in a while to have back and forth conversation in real time. But then should have some sort of system or a framework to move from. This needs to be like in real time, text messaging mostly.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker A: When we're talking about written communication and then we have to have a way to move to a more slow conversation that can take longer to fix an issue. But then people, uh, can actually take the time to think about what they're going to write and then share their thoughts and then vice versa.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's like the whole like, quality over quantity thing. If you want like a flurry of messages and you want like the quickest response and you just, you need response quickly. Like often in very simple situations, it's just like a yes or a no or go for it or don't. That lends itself so well to synchronous and to just making sure that speed is at the core. But if you need depth, if you need context and you need deep thought, then allowing people the time to slow down and to put some quality into their response really pays dividends over, over the long haul, I think. But for sure it can like, definitely be perceived as slower and for sure can be slower in some instances.

Speaker A: Yeah, I've definitely seen it myself. Like, it can get frustrating also to work always asynchronously. Like, I don't think that it's. You cannot just work asynchronously. I was always. So I'm asking people, do you think it would be actually possible to work in 100% async company or. You never have real time and I mean, I think not. I don't know what you think about that.

Speaker C: No, I think it's. I think it's funny because I've had a lot of people reach out to me, like, how does do everything asynchronously? You guys are a hundred percent async. And I'm like, it's true that we are like, we are on the far end of that spectrum when it comes to asynchronous, but I think we even had like a couple, maybe a year or two years ago, we had like a mentality, uh, shift internally where we were like, like somebody created a thread that said, have we gone off the deep end? Have we gone too far with this async thing? Really, like, really taking it too seriously. Like, meetings are, can be toxic and that don't like, expect an immediate response. And there are times where those things are needed. And so we've taken a couple steps back on that, I think, and really found more of a way to say asynchronous is our core. That's like the core of our communication stack. But there are certainly places and more and more places I think during the last year for synchronous communication, for team bonding and communication, like getting over and through some of the, like, bigger hurdles that we have in front of us. It definitely, it plays a big part in our relative success.

Speaker A: I think there's definitely a space for people to work in real time. I think that creativity is, works much better when you can bounce back from each other and uh, work together on an idea. It takes much longer to create, for example a product, product background. And when you have to get creative and to build new initiatives, new products, you can do. I did asynchronous design sprints, which is like, it takes a very long time, like maybe over two weeks. And then it's easy also if you always just work with written communication and asynchronous to lose the sense of understanding what people are thinking really or what people are really trying to say. Because it's not the same thing. If I am not clear right away in the way I'm writing, if I'm speaking face to face with you, I'm able to take the time to re explain if you didn't understand on the right the first time. Well, if you do this written then it takes a much longer time to get to the end point of um. Okay, we got clarified.

Speaker C: Yeah, I totally agree. And these like brainstorming sessions are becoming really key for us. We're doing them more and more and I'm relearning to. To love that collaborative nature and remembering how beneficial it can be to like get feedback in real time and not iterate in stages. There's a definite space for it. We're doing this more and more. Like we have actually coming up next week, like a, uh. I think there's going to be 15 of us on a call, like going through a kind of a quarterly plan with all these different elements. And like I, I think back a couple years ago, like we probably never would have done this.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm surprised. Fifteen people on a call to me is not productive. I'm like, you're 15 people. Like many people will only be listening in which sometimes is like it's difficult to know, like when do we need a call when it's not needed. If you never do all hands meeting, I think it's important to have some time. Like even if your company has like 100 people and you say, oh, we're just gonna all hands meeting always recorded. And then you just listen to it like you're not as engaged. And when you give the executive team is talking to you live for one hour, maybe once a month and you have access to Q and A if you want to ask question at the end, for example.

Speaker C: Yeah, but here's the thing that the tools have come a long way in the last two years, like even the last one or two years, there's. The advancements are there to make these sorts of things productive, whereas they weren't before. And so between having better tools, better processes, better knowledge around how to make asynchronous and synchronous mesh together and work well, I think people are finding their way with the different styles a lot better than we were a couple years ago. It's crazy how fast it moved just in the last, just in the last year with COVID and everything just forced people into these different areas of, okay, we're going to figure this out now. And it, it made us all better in a way.

Speaker A: It was such a nice experiment too, because before. Yeah, when you've been working remotely for a long time and like you, I was in a remote, fully remote company before all the this and we had to build all these tools ourselves or try to find solutions ourselves to all the different issues that people are coming through at the moment. Last year, all the different startups that start created new products and uh, there's like much more studies also on the topic to say in general. Like, I'm sure there are studies being made now on the benefits of Async versus Synchronous. There's probably like a lot of data being gathered by companies who actually have budget to really get these data together. And it's nice to be able to see real data around remote work because we never had that before.

Speaker C: Yeah, they have a vested interest in it now. Right. Because they're like the big corporations of the world are trying to figure out, okay, how do we make this work? We didn't have to tackle this before, now we need to tackle this and we need to put uh, these dollars to use to figure out how to do it correctly. So it's really benefiting us all. Whereas a lot of us were like, well, we're remote first. That's just what we do. And we're gonna just push forward with that. Now we're like getting armed with other points of view.

Speaker A: Yeah, even me. I even has an experienced remote worker and like working on organizational change and everything. I'm learning so much every single day because of all the data that comes out and all the things that I'm like, oh, I had this assumption for a long time with my own experience, and then now I actually have data to tell me like exactly if what's right or wrong in my assumptions, which before. It's still like this before a Long time content we were listening or watching or reading was always about your own experience. Uh, and now you're getting more data from all these big companies, these big

Speaker C: agencies and there's no shortage of information out there now. Like, it's like a fire drinking from a fire hose. It's coming in fast, uh, every day.

Speaker A: I could have a new article about this. Yeah, well let's try to give good content to our audience today.

Speaker C: We gotta break through the noise.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for you. So what's your style like of communication when you, what's the best scenario of like how a communication framework should be done from sync to async?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's so, it's interesting. Like I came from a, ah, I've always worked remotely but so for the last, what, 12 years I've worked remotely and. But the first sort of half of my career was in more of a traditional company, like a hybrid company and where remote workers were very much so, uh, the minority and the nature of my job was very, it was still very synchronous. Like I was actually like face to face with customers, doing a lot of phone calls, talking with people and teammates very synchronously. We all worked in pretty much the same time zones and so there was a lot of like face to face contact. There were lots of meeting. I mentioned the meeting that we're having earlier that you said you were surprised about, that's for us is like a once a quarter thing. So maybe three or four times a year. And that chapter of my life was like a once a day thing. And so the nature of the way I worked was so different and there were a lot of elements of that. I really enjoyed the interpersonal communication, the friendships and bonds built through that. So I still retain a lot of that. But I did see a lot of the lack of productivity in it as well. And as far as like getting work done, I saw where there was a lot of room for improvement and a lot of inefficiencies. So anyway, moving to doist, the other end of the spectrum, I got indoctrinated in the totally async sort of style. And so I land somewhere in the middle where I really think there is a place for synchronous, but I think for getting like deep work done at the core of what we do. Like I push my team and the teams that I manage or the projects that I manage to lean on asynchronous as much as we can. I'll push back on people recommending things be a, uh, meeting Turning a conversation into a meeting and try to push to say, can we tackle this asynchronously first? And if not, then we bring it to a synchronous environment. So it's async first with synchronous is a close backup, I guess is the way to sum it up quickly.

Speaker A: So if we want to get more into the specifics, when you say let's tackle this asynchronously, what do you mean?

Speaker C: So like generally, like a good example is like we have this project management system we call the DO system and every month we're working in four week sprints on any of range of topics. And so if I'm leading one of those, generally I'm leading one of those projects. And we call that position the squad leader is charged with like just getting the project done at the end of the month. Like it's on our shoulders to make sure that this project is completed. And so when a teammate comes to me and says, hey, we're within this scope of this project, we're really stuck on this point. You know, we can't figure out how to get past it. I will look back through the threads and see if, is there something we could have done asynchronously in, in a thread to, to fix that problem before saying, okay, let's move it to a meeting. Let's then coordinate people across all these time zones and try to get people on the call together. So it's basically just, hey, let's see if we can tackle this in twist. And if we can't, if we can't come to a solution within 24 hours, then let's create a meeting and try to tackle it that way.

Speaker A: Yeah, because sometimes threads can go on and um, on for a long time. Like it's not just let's. Because I also been in that. So we use a different software that we built ourselves back when I was at Human Made, but it can last for a very long time. The conversation can be if there's no end and also if the culturally, if we don't say this is the person who takes the decision on the next steps, for example, we would have a very big tread conversation about what we think should be done and everything. And at the end there's just never an end to it.

Speaker C: Yes, this is a definite problem. And also the responsibility of the squad leader is to stop that from happening as well and to say, okay, we need to come to a decision. And I think empowering, like in our system, anybody who can be in the role of A squad leader. So I've seen where like somebody very entry level is leading a squad and say the CEO is also involved in that same squad and the squad leader takes precedent and makes the final decision in these situations. And so you really have to empower somebody to take charge and not let like this over democratization of decision making take place, or else those threads will last for forever.

Speaker A: I guess in Async or just in general, when you are working in a distributed environment, the most structured bit that, uh, you put, okay, we are creating squads, we have some people in charge of that specific project or topic, and then there is work being done asynchronously. But at the end there's always somebody who is taking the last decision. Empowering the teams to just be like independent, for example, like, I guess maybe you work like this to a product that works really well when you have a squad who's just in charge of one part and doesn't have to go through a lot of levels to be able to move forward.

Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah, that's. I mean, that's it. It's again like empowering a team, a squad, to own something and to make the decision. And if it ends up being the wrong decision, that's okay, make the decision and move forward as opposed to keeping the discussion going. And like, seeking perfection in an asynchronous environment, I think can be really dangerous. Like, you almost never really arrive at perfection. And so if you get to 80 or 90%, like you ship it and you move on and you recalculate later if needed. And I think that's one way you can keep those conversations from lingering and never coming to a decision. Because that's really just like an excuse to not make a decision, like looking for that perfection.

Speaker B: Hey everyone, I'm your host, Daphne laforet, founder of Modern Leaders, a consulting collective enabling you to walk the talk and scale your company for the remote first future. Our team comes from over a decade of distributed team leadership experience where we work with organizations from 25 to 5,000 employees.

Speaker A: And I am so excited to have put together this podcast to share with

Speaker B: you everything that we've been learning over the years. This is the remote first podcast.

Speaker A: There's also a limit, I think, to asynchronous in a way that, I mean, I've worked and uh, you probably as well worked in like time zones that you work with people that are in many different time zones. Mostly when we were like, a lot of us were traveling too, and we like to sometime go in Asia while we had people in the US and this was so complicated. But in the best world you're like, yes, you know, Async will make it work and it's going to be like the perfect world. Don't you think it can be a bit like even more difficult for companies if they are managing projects over time zones? Don't you think it's going to be even slowing down even more their work? Shouldn't they like focus on one specific time zone or an area where they know people can actually be around the same time, sometimes have back and forth a bit easier, even if it's asynchronous?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think there's a place for that for sure. Like I could see both sides of the coin. I met this CEO recently who's got like a team of about 150 distributed around the world and he says they, they make their teams work with a three hour overlap, which I thought was a cool concept. So whenever your working hours are, it has to overlap with everybody in your team on a three hour basis. So they use that as a basis for hiring, which does limit your like hire from anywhere, you know, mentality. But it comes with a lot of pros. I see the point for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. But uh, then this hire from anywhere is you can still hire from a lot of places still if you are in the same time. If you think about the Americas, you have the whole Americas at the same time zone. You can, in Europe, you can hire in a whole continent of Africa from and the north, like it's there. And in the apac you have Australia and Singapore and Japan and you have a lot of countries that have a lot of talent, like for billions of points. Sometimes I'm like, yes, hire from anywhere. Be organized. Because also for your own employees, like, well, m being it won't be like as nice for them if they actually have to work with people that are very far and also if they are really dependent on them. It can be quite frustrating when you're very dependent on someone else to wait for their response and be like, okay, I will send this now. I will only have an answer like in 12 hours. And then it is frustrating.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you make a great point. Like it's really hard to argue that we're going from not very long ago, like literally even still today, people saying I have to hire from within my zip code, postal code, a radius, uh, of X miles or kilometers of my city to oh, now I have to hire from within three hours of my time zone. Uh, like you, you're opening up the possibilities by billions of people very quickly. So yeah, it's tough to argue against that. It's not the model that we've taken. Like we, we do really, I guess, embrace this. We want to hire from wherever and we don't want to put locations on any, on any job descriptions. But as our team grows also, like that worked really well when we were 30 or 40 and now we're over a hundred. And there, uh, some start to realize some of these things and think and rethink them. And I think that's like part of the recalibration process too.

Speaker A: As you grow, you also have clusters slowly being built around certain regions. And then you can continue hiring for, uh, those working in apac, for example, maybe you have some roles in the end up being more in that area and then you might hire for a specific kind of role in that area. And it can work asynchronously but productively together in their same time zone. I think this is a winning model to mix async so that people are not always on their computer and then feeling that they have to be online with their green dots all the time to be able to get work done.

Speaker C: I'm a big fan of removing those elements, uh, from the workday regardless, like whatever environment you work in. The presence indicator and the read receipts and this kind of like, hey, I'm working. It's not really a great representation of whether or not you're working. But I wonder in that scenario, Daphne, like, how would you handle digital nomads on your team? Like they're constantly in flux. Are they changing teams? Or they're stuck with their team back in Asia, but now they're in America.

Speaker A: I've been that pain in the ass. I've been that one before. Like, I've been the one who was always changing location and I was like always asking to like reassess, reset meetings to fit my schedule, which was really not nice for my teammates because I was always saying, oh, well, now I'm in Asia, so can we change this to that time now because of xyz? And I think actually the less meetings you have, the better. But then in the end, if you're the one who's traveling a lot around while you make it so that you can fit a little bit. If you have meetings that you have to, uh, access once in a while, you're the one who has to adapt your schedule. I didn't make that mistake in the past where it was just, uh, really frustrating for the person who just stays in London Keep changing their schedule. And you could have the same meeting every Tuesday at 10am but it's like just changing all the time. Mostly because I was going to Canada and the east coast and something I was like in, in Japan and it just was not. It was not great. Mostly for meetings for people, but big team meetings. You know, I would have like late night meetings or early morning and I chose that way. I was just accepting that if I want to be able to do that, I have to adjust my schedule. But of course async is a huge benefit because then it's like you can really take it at your own freedom.

Speaker C: Yeah. Basically we had somebody on our team that I didn't even know. He had been traveling like all over the place, like from Canada to through Europe. I think at the time he was in Japan when I realized like he was digital nomad for the past six or eight months or something. And I didn't even realize because we never had meetings that. And he just did, uh, he just adapted his work schedule and everything was rolling on an async basis. And so I remember thinking like, wow, that things have come a long way in my life from like the uh. That would have never been a possibility not that long ago. So it's really interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think we're a long way away from. I remember seeing people who were working from like APAC time zones, um, for clients in San Francisco or in Europe. And they had. At that time people were using software to track disabled to see the remote employees. So able to see them in real time with a camera and it would take a screenshot of their face. I thought it was so scary. I was like, I would never want to do that. But it's something that is still used monitoring like seeing that you are on there. So I know you're here and I know I can interrupt you. And there is that need for many people to be able to know that people are around.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh. That like the first, the first remote worker that I ever knew was my mom. Which is crazy because this was like 25, 20 something years ago. And she was. And like she fell into remote work in the most like random industry. She's a nurse and figured out how she. But she really wanted to work from home. And she's the kind of lady that she's like, I'm going to figure this out. And she got a nursing job basically providing nursing care over the phone for an insurance company. But she was one of the first and this mega, uh, like tens of thousands of employees, company. She was one of the first remote workers. And uh, but they said they didn't know how to do it and they just put all this like monitoring software on her computer. Like she, if she didn't move her mouse, like they would know she wasn't moving her mouse. If she wanted to go to the bathroom, she had to ask her boss and her boss would just randomly message her like hey, are you there? Reply within 30 seconds and things like that. And so maybe I'm like very averse to like all these things because I saw how mentally it was so stressful on her and not a healthy situation at all. So anyway, maybe I'm like on the far end of the spectrum because of that experience. But in any case, yeah, like it's just not, it's not the way to go about it. Like it's not productive for your team.

Speaker A: You wouldn't expect that in an office. Like you wouldn't expect to track your employee in an office. When you are in the same building. You're not seeing them, you're working in your office maybe three floors up, you're not seeing them. You would never ask to track their mouse. This would be very odd. But then, oh, uh, suddenly it's not in the office. I can do that.

Speaker C: Yeah. People get way too much credit just for showing up. You walk into the office and you clock in. Whether you actually clock in or not. But just being there, it's oh, you get credit for working and you might do nothing. You might work two hours in an eight hour day, but you're just, you're that you're a body in a seat so it counts.

Speaker A: You go play ping pong.

Speaker C: Yeah, we've been there Peter.

Speaker A: But it must have been quite inspiring for you to have like your mom a remote worker in a way or like seeing that it's possible to work flexibly in quotes because of the fact that she was not necessarily flexible but that ah, she could do it from home or from wherever she wanted.

Speaker C: I think it definitely inspired in me like she not only managed that, she also managed to convince them to four day work weeks. So imagine that 20 something years ago. And so she, I think it showed me like the workplace doesn't have to be what it the uh, dedicated nine to five sit at a desk or a cubicle all day. You can, there's flexibility in this. And then when that started to become more normal, like when I was graduating from university, I was just like, I'm working remotely. I'm not going to sit in the Office and I will pass on better jobs perhaps or more money or whatever. But I want that freedom and flexibility. And so I think just knowing I have, that's what I'm prioritizing and that's possible. Like it changed the expectations for what's realistic. So yeah, it was very helpful. Mhm.

Speaker A: Our parents have a lot of good influence on us. They don't realize as a parent we have good influence too. That's really cool. So if we go back a bit to the whole async setup, you say that it usually would default to async. When you are working on a project you probably have threads per project that you are managing. Either you're using a software for project management or you are having a conversation around a topic that needs decision. Can you give a bit more like context about like how you're using?

Speaker C: Sure, yeah. I want to. So to preface, I want to be careful about. I'm definitely not here to promote our products, but we use our own products to do this. So I will just say you need

Speaker A: to eat your own dog food to make it better.

Speaker C: So that's exactly right. Like we say we're like building products for ourselves, so hopefully they build, they work well for other remote teams. Our two main tools are Todoist and Twist. Twist is like our version of Slack. It's where communication takes place. And todoist is where we say like once we are done talking about it, it's where the doing happens. And so in todoist is like our project management tool. So what we do, uh, like a project lives in both places, the communication around the project lives in Twist and we discuss specs there. We get down to the details, we figure out like the vision and the path and like the roadmap and where we're going. But then once that's decided it's put into todoist and accountability is created there. Due dates, expectations and sort of the nuts and bolts of the project come together in todoist and of course they like they integrate together. So they're kind of like talking to it. It's not so distinct like I'm describing it there, but generally that's sort of like the big picture flow.

Speaker A: And how do you debrief once like you've done the whole thing, you organized, you needed a project, but then after you need to know what worked well and what didn't.

Speaker C: Generally it's also done asynchronously. Like uh, we'll write a, the squad leader will write a spec postmortem spec just to Kind of say like here are the outcomes. Usually that's done in like a Dropbox paper or Google Doc. If it's like a landing page or something, it might be accompanied by like Figma or Marvel mockup and then these are shared internally. In Twist is like, and like a postmortem uh, channel for that particular project. If anybody wants to read this or for all the stakeholders involved, like here's where this ended up and then further communication might take place within the spec, like in the Doc or the Google or the uh, or the Dropbox paper. Like you know, comments are being made and things like that. But generally we try to it's and it's not easy I have to admit. Like duplication of communication still takes place and we're constantly auditing that. Like how can we avoid having the conversation about a, ah, particular something that we messed up on or something that we didn't like in Twist but also in the Dropbox paper. It can happen where they're happening simultaneously in two places. And so nipping that in the bud is like, is really important but something we struggle with for sure.

Speaker A: You only use written communication because I'm keep hearing that you are, you know, writing a lot. But then because you're hiring in many different countries, not everyone has English as their first language. You know, sometimes maybe for some people being able to record a video or an audio might be easier for them to uh, explain. How do you tackle that?

Speaker C: It's a really good point. So I mean it's true that we are heavily leaning on written communication and a lot of our hiring process involves a lot of written communication and super clear, well done. Written communication in English is like, is of, of the utmost uh, importance in the, in the hiring process. But then I've been surprised sometimes like when I'm, I've been used to communicating with someone in the written form for months or years and then we meet face to face and I could like wow, your written English is like amazing and but you don't speak that often so you can tell there's a, there's a difference there. But fortunately in our environment for them that's not, that's not super important either. But yeah, tools like loom for instance are leveraged more and more these days. Like we're, you know, constantly like a lot on my team when we're implementing something new, we'll utilize a loom to explain something that's not just not quite getting done clearly in uh, a, in the written form. And occasionally we do these live synchronous meetings where we really go deep into why something didn't work out. And so, yeah, there's a place for it, but it tends to be sort of the last resort. Right.

Speaker A: And in the end, with all the experience that you had, what do you wish would get better with time or maybe with the experience of new companies going into that?

Speaker C: I personally want for us at, uh, doist, what I want us to get better at is rethinking the way we've been doing things. Like sort of the, like, what got us here may not get us there sort of thing. And especially with the evolution of all the tools that are coming out and the processes and the knowledge sharing, like, what we've done has worked well for us, but there's so much great information out there and so much to learn from others. And I think we're doing a decent job of like, filtering that and distilling that. And I'd love to see us do even better and implement some new ideas and look at what other teams are doing that are learning from this remote first concept. Because I think there's just. There's so much great info to be shared out there now. And like, we're, uh. And I'm reading a lot of it, like, same as you. Like, I read the content you guys put out and I've hear what other people say on podcasts like these. And I would love to figure out how to try to implement some of these things at doist. And I think just that can go both ways. Like, people can get outside of their box, outside of their shell and start learning from other teams and implementing these concepts there.

Speaker A: Definitely. Well, thank you so much, Chase, for leading that path for Asynchronous. I think you've been a great leader as well in that topic. So thank you for being here and doing everything that you've done so far. And thank you for joining on the podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you very much. It was a lot of fun and I hope it's useful for people. And yeah, just you as well. Keep putting out the great content and helping push this forward.

Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to remote first. You can find all links and show notes in the episode description. And if you found value in this show, we'd love your rating on your listening app of choice. Thank you for being here. See you next time.