How Jobs And Skills Australia Turns Labour Data Into Better Career And Workforce Decisions with Professor Barney Glover

1 - > Kath Hume: This is the Reimagined Workforce Podcast, 2 - > and I am your host, Kath Hume. 3 - > Through my work, I'm privileged to have fascinating, 4 - > thought-provoking conversations with people who inspire me and 5 - > make me so optimistic about the future. 6 - > They're rethinking how work gets done and how we might do 7 - > that better. 8 - > I am aware that not everyone is as fortunate. 9 - > So I created this podcast to bring some of these 10 - > conversations to others who share a passion for 11 - > reimagination. 12 - > Today's episode is a bit of a milestone, and I thought long 13 - > and hard about who would be the perfect guest. 14 - > Fortunately, I keynoted a conference with Professor Barney 15 - > Glover late last year, and it became very clear that the work 16 - > of Jobs and Skills Australia offers incredible value to 17 - > anyone working in workforce strategy and capability 18 - > development. 19 - > It provides a clear line of sight between emerging skill 20 - > needs, labour market dynamics, and the decisions we need to 21 - > make today. 22 - > For individuals and organisations, this means being 23 - > better equipped to plan for what comes next. 24 - > I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. 25 - > Welcome to a very special episode of the Reimagined 26 - > Workforce podcast. 27 - > This is our 50th episode, and I can't think of a better guest 28 - > to help us explore how we might reimagine the future of work so 29 - > that organisations and the people within them thrive. 30 - > Joining us today is Professor Barney Glover, Commissioner of 31 - > Jobs and Skills Australia. 32 - > In many ways, Professor Glover embodies what I dreamed when I 33 - > started this podcast. 34 - > His work focuses on anticipating the future through 35 - > evidence, using labour market insights and workforce data to 36 - > help Australians prepare for what comes next and create 37 - > brighter futures for individuals, organizations, and 38 - > communities. 39 - > Professor Glover brings remarkable breadth and depth of 40 - > experience to his role. 41 - > He previously served as Vice-Chancellor of Western 42 - > Sydney University and Charles Darwin University. 43 - > Throughout his career, he has contributed to education, 44 - > research, and innovation through leadership roles across 45 - > universities, governments, and industry. 46 - > He also contributes more broadly through service on a 47 - > range of boards and advisory boards, including the Museum of 48 - > Applied Arts and Sciences, and internationally as an honorary 49 - > professor at the University of Economics Ho Chi Minh City. 50 - > His work across these roles reflects a deep commitment to 51 - > expanding opportunity, strengthening the connection 52 - > between education and employment, and ensuring 53 - > workforce systems support thriving societies. 54 - > On a personal note, it's a real pleasure to welcome Professor 55 - > Glover. 56 - > In my work in strategic workforce planning, I regularly 57 - > rely on labour market insights produced by Jobs and Skills 58 - > Australia to help organisations understand workforce trends and 59 - > make better decisions about the future workforce. 60 - > And I am incredibly grateful for that amazing service. 61 - > I was actually speaking with a group from a European country 62 - > recently, and I was showing them what we have available to us in 63 - > Australia, and I have to say they were extremely jealous of 64 - > what we have available to us. 65 - > So hats off to everyone at Jobs and Skills Australia who makes 66 - > that available to us. 67 - > But Professor Glover, welcome to the Reimagined Workforce 68 - > Podcast. 69 - > Professor Glover: Thank you, Kath. 70 - > It's great to be with you and congratulations on 50. 71 - > And I'm very pleased to be your 50th guest and very happy to be 72 - > here and to chat about something I'm very passionate 73 - > about, which is the Australian labour market and how we can 74 - > help Australians to reach their full potential in the Australian 75 - > labour market and to navigate the national skills system to 76 - > get there. 77 - > So very happy to be with you. 78 - > Kath Hume: Thank you, and as am I, I'm I'm absolutely thrilled 79 - > that you agreed to be with us and to share your insights and 80 - > to support others. 81 - > And that's the dream that I had when I created the podcast. 82 - > Was I was fortunate to be in many conversations and have 83 - > access to lots of information and good people with great 84 - > intelligence and willingness to share, and it's just very 85 - > fitting that today I've got you as our guest. 86 - > So thank you. 87 - > Thank you. 88 - > I was just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about 89 - > what it is you do and why you love it so much. 90 - > Professor Glover: It's a very good question. 91 - > Well, I'm the Jobs and Skills Australia Commissioner, which 92 - > is a what's called an independent statutory officer 93 - > position with the Australian government. 94 - > So I'm an independent advisor to government and to the broader 95 - > community, um, to all of the key stakeholders who have an 96 - > interest in jobs and skills in Australia, and that's just about 97 - > everyone. 98 - > So providing advice. 99 - > I have a team of people, including two deputy 100 - > commissioners who support me, Megan Lilly and Trevor Gould are 101 - > my two deputy commissioners, again, independent secretary 102 - > officers, and a team of about 200 in Jobs and Skills 103 - > Australia, relatively small agency, but it does a powerhouse 104 - > of work, as you've outlined in your opening comments, Kath. 105 - > It is truly, I think, a remarkably important part of the 106 - > Australian government and the service we provide to people who 107 - > are interested in the dynamics of our labour market and our 108 - > skills system and how they're working effectively together or 109 - > not so effectively together. 110 - > Where are the tension points? 111 - > What do I do? 112 - > Well, I'm ultimately responsible for the whole body 113 - > of work that is underway within Jobs and Skills Australia, which 114 - > means there's a very significant amount of work that 115 - > is focused on the workforce of today. 116 - > What's happening today in the workforce? 117 - > What are internet vacancies like? 118 - > What is what's happening with employers and recruitment 119 - > difficulty? 120 - > What are we doing in skilled migration? 121 - > All of these key point-in-time analyses of the Australian 122 - > labour market, occupational shortages, core skilled 123 - > occupation lists, all the sorts of very important business as 124 - > usual parts of the mechanisms that help to inform and provide 125 - > advice to policymakers and to the public more broadly. 126 - > So all of that work, as well as the future-focused work, what's 127 - > what do we anticipate happening in the labour market in the 128 - > future? 129 - > What do we see with employment trends into the future? 130 - > What can we see happening in our skills system in the future? 131 - > And then we do a range of big projects. 132 - > Last year, for example, we did a big project on generative AI, 133 - > and I took the lead on that project. 134 - > The commissioners, deputy commissioners, and I take leads 135 - > on various big projects, and I took the lead on that one. 136 - > Megan Lilly took the lead on our gender economic equality 137 - > study, a very, very big and important study last year. 138 - > And Trevor Gould has been leading our work on foundation 139 - > skills. 140 - > We're doing a big, we just completed a big survey 141 - > nationally of foundation skills, literacy, numeracy, and digital 142 - > skills. 143 - > And we're doing some work at the moment on in a project 144 - > called Mutu Youngaland, which is focused on remote indigenous 145 - > communities and how how we should consider and respond to 146 - > issues around foundation skills in that very different context. 147 - > So it's an exciting body of work. 148 - > I lead the body of work. 149 - > We make reports to governments and into the public domain. 150 - > And importantly, I'm the spokesperson. 151 - > I'm there talking to people like you, Kath, and many others 152 - > who are interested in what's happening and to explain the 153 - > work of JSA and to be there to help encourage people to think 154 - > differently about the dynamics of our labour market. 155 - > A lot of young people now, particularly post-COVID, sort of 156 - > struggling with what direction should I take in life and what's 157 - > what's the right choice of career path for me? 158 - > And we provide, as you know, a raft of data sources that can 159 - > help people in making those sorts of decisions and to 160 - > understanding how to navigate our skill system and our labour 161 - > market. 162 - > So there's a big public relations role for the 163 - > Commissioner. 164 - > And today, for example, I've been involved in meetings with 165 - > state and territory ministers to talk about state and territory 166 - > priorities for Jobs and Skills Australia. 167 - > So it is a very outwardly focused role, but also 168 - > ultimately responsible for this incredible body of work by these 169 - > very talented public servants. 170 - > Kath Hume: What I think is amazing is I was with a group of 171 - > high school students, so year 10 students this week, we're 172 - > looking at your occupational skills shortages list, for 173 - > example. 174 - > But then I go out into quite large organizations, and I and 175 - > so it's accessible and usable for a range of different 176 - > audiences. 177 - > And I think what I love about it is that it's all working 178 - > towards that same ultimate goal, is to have people in 179 - > occupations that they enjoy, where they will thrive, where 180 - > they can, as you said, live to their potential, and ultimately 181 - > that's the best thing for our economy. 182 - > Then we've optimized our human resources and the people within 183 - > our societies. 184 - > And I think there's a lot coming out, as you would know. 185 - > You talked about leading that piece of work on AI, but I was 186 - > listening to something earlier in the week, just around what's 187 - > the impact of AI on going to be on loneliness and how are we 188 - > reimagining work and to ensure that we're protecting that 189 - > because as we all know, loneliness is becoming a really 190 - > prominent problem in society. 191 - > So I think the work that you're leading is just making such a 192 - > huge difference in the lives of so many Australians. 193 - > So one other thing that I really liked that you said that 194 - > I really caught on is the whole premise of the reimagined 195 - > workforce is that you're encouraging people to think 196 - > differently. 197 - > So where we've come from in the past is not where we're going 198 - > in the future. 199 - > So I love that you're anticipating the future and 200 - > providing those insights. 201 - > I know we can't predict the future, but giving us a hint and 202 - > helping us to see what might happen so we can do that 203 - > scenario planning and be better prepared. 204 - > Professor Glover: Yeah, no, it's very, very important. 205 - > There was a very significant OECD study last year that 206 - > provided an interesting insight into the career aspirations of 207 - > 15-year-olds. 208 - > So it's a very important study under their PISA program. 209 - > And 750,000 15-year-olds were interviewed from 17 OECD 210 - > countries, including Australia and New Zealand and many others. 211 - > But the fascinating thing about the data that came out, and the 212 - > troubling bit about the data, was that the top five, the top 213 - > 10 occupations that young people were thinking that they'd like 214 - > to be when they left school hadn't changed much in 30 years. 215 - > And what was even more troubling was when you looked at 216 - > it against where we see really dynamic change and growth in the 217 - > labour market, they were almost diametrically opposite. 218 - > In other words, they were choosing things where the 219 - > opportunities were very limited and not where there is an 220 - > enormous amount of growth in the future. 221 - > So in Australia, the economy is dominated at the moment by 222 - > growth in health care and social assistance and the care economy 223 - > in Australia is growing significantly. 224 - > We're seeing quite a shift from the producing industries to the 225 - > to the service industries. 226 - > It's been ongoing now for some time, and it our projections are 227 - > that it will continue on. 228 - > So when you talk to young people and they give you their 229 - > career aspirations, and they're actually misaligned with 230 - > opportunity, that's a challenge. 231 - > It was also misaligned with a sense of, well, what sort of 232 - > post-secondary education do I need as a 15-year-old? 233 - > Are they thinking about tertiary education and the jobs 234 - > of the future and reimagining the workforce of the future that 235 - > they'll be part of? 236 - > And often they were, they didn't have a sophisticated 237 - > concept at age 15 of post-secondary education. 238 - > Whereas we know at Jobs and Skills Australia that over 90% 239 - > of the jobs of the future within the next five years will 240 - > require post-secondary education qualifications. 241 - > And we also know that in the Australian context, and it's 242 - > very true elsewhere, I was actually talking to someone from 243 - > the UK from our sister organization, Skills England, 244 - > just earlier this week about some of the challenges that 245 - > they're addressing in the UK and what we're looking at in 246 - > Australia. 247 - > But thinking about what we're seeing as an imbalance in our 248 - > post-secondary education system in Australia. 249 - > That is, we've had enormous reforms in post-secondary 250 - > education, vocational training in higher ed, but we have 251 - > overqualified the workforce in higher education and not 252 - > qualified it enough in vocational training. 253 - > 60% of the all of the jobs in the construction sector are in 254 - > shortage because we're not generating young people 255 - > interested in apprenticeships and careers in the construction 256 - > industry. 257 - > And we need that as a country that wants to build 1.2 million 258 - > homes and create the jobs of the future that might be really 259 - > interesting in a technology-rich environment. 260 - > So we're needing to address this lack of parody of esteem 261 - > between our vet sector and our higher ed sector, something in 262 - > Europe you don't see to the same extent. 263 - > The polytechnics in Germany and the universities live side by 264 - > side and are highly regarded. 265 - > In Australia, we don't have that sense between our TAFES and 266 - > our universities. 267 - > We should. 268 - > We haven't got it yet. 269 - > So we need to do a lot of educating of young people about 270 - > wonderful career opportunities into vocational education and 271 - > training and to grow our higher education system. 272 - > This is not about curtailing that, but we need to see a 273 - > significant in VET. 274 - > One of the other troubling things that came out of the 275 - > conversation I had with my colleague in England comes to 276 - > your point a moment ago, Kath, about about loneliness and about 277 - > mental health issues in general. 278 - > We have in Australia at the moment a troubling set of data 279 - > around people not in employment education or training, young 280 - > people, 15 to 24 year olds. 281 - > So in regional Australia, it's one in six young people are not 282 - > in employment education or training. 283 - > And in metropolitan Australia, it's one in ten. 284 - > So not only are they not participating in the training 285 - > system, they're not engaged at all in education or employment. 286 - > And that's a worry. 287 - > And that number has spiked. 288 - > And we need to find out what's happening and how we can lift 289 - > the aspiration of young people. 290 - > And partly, that comes back to the quality of careers advice. 291 - > And when you unpack quality careers advice, you end up at 292 - > JSA. 293 - > Because you end up, where's the evidence base? 294 - > Where is the compelling data that tells a young person, well, 295 - > what are the pathways that might take me from where I am to 296 - > what I'd like to be, or possibly other things I'd like 297 - > to be? 298 - > I don't want to be locked into a single career pathway. 299 - > The future is about many career pathways for us. 300 - > It's not a single, you know, work in the same job for 40 301 - > years. 302 - > It's going to be very different. 303 - > So two of our really important, I think our most important 304 - > reports from JSA every year. 305 - > One is the VET National Data Asset Report, and the other is 306 - > our higher education outcomes report. 307 - > They both came out late last year. 308 - > Now, these are both reports based on what's called PLIDA 309 - > data. 310 - > PLIDA is person-level integrated data asset of the 311 - > Australian Bureau of Statistics. 312 - > And this is where the ABS has linked a whole lot of data 313 - > together from tax data to schools data to vet data to 314 - > social services data. 315 - > So we can track what happens to people as they move through 316 - > education and training and ask the question what happens next? 317 - > Does it make any difference to their lives? 318 - > And not surprisingly, but impressively, in our VNDA 319 - > report last year, on average, median income uplift. 320 - > If you complete a vet qualification in Australia, 321 - > you've got a median income uplift of about $15,000 a year 322 - > in the first year or so of coming out of your VET 323 - > qualification. 324 - > That's great. 325 - > You have a big uplift in employability, and you have a 326 - > big uplift in opportunity to go to further study. 327 - > And remarkably, over 40% of people who are on income support 328 - > before they do their vet qualification come off income 329 - > support from the government after. 330 - > And that's a great example of how people are getting out of 331 - > that intergenerational poverty challenge and moving into an 332 - > opportunity to earn money and participate in quality jobs in 333 - > the Australian labour market. 334 - > So the VNDA data is incredible. 335 - > VET National Data Asset, well worth looking at. 336 - > You can actually interrogate it down to what happens if I do a 337 - > CERT two in hospitality or I or do a CERT three in 338 - > electrotechnology. 339 - > It gives you all of that data about median income uplift and 340 - > employability. 341 - > Interestingly, side by side with that is our higher 342 - > education outcomes data. 343 - > And this is doing the same analysis for people who are 344 - > completing their higher education qualifications. 345 - > And we went back and we looked at what happened to them over 346 - > five and ten years. 347 - > So it's longitudinal data. 348 - > And it is a remarkable story of success. 349 - > On average, over the first five years, if you complete a 350 - > degree, you have on average about a 35% increase in salary 351 - > over the first five years. 352 - > That's impressive. 353 - > Um, and in some areas, you know, you do a nursing degree, 354 - > you end up mostly in nursing, but not always in nursing. 355 - > About 70-odd percent end up in nursing. 356 - > Engineers, yes, mostly go into engineering, but not all of 357 - > them. 358 - > And then you have some other degrees, like a Bachelor of 359 - > Arts, a Bachelor of Social Sciences, a Bachelor of 360 - > Business, Bachelor of IT, that end up moving into a whole raft 361 - > of different areas. 362 - > And this, I think, is where young people who are thinking 363 - > about the work in the future, imagining or reimagining the 364 - > workforce of the future, can get a real sense of, wow, if I do 365 - > this degree, look at all of the opportunities that come from 366 - > that in these very, very different areas. 367 - > And you start to say, well, yeah, this is not locking you in 368 - > to a particular outcome. 369 - > It's actually opening up a raft of outcomes. 370 - > And one of the things I think is most important about that, 371 - > coming back to the generative AI conversation we had, because 372 - > you you have to reimagine the workforce of the future in the 373 - > context of generative AI and agentic AI, that will be the 374 - > transformation of our economy over the next few years will be 375 - > the impact of Gen AI. 376 - > But one thing that we see happening at the moment when 377 - > we're thinking about and imagining the workforce of the 378 - > future is the importance of the cognitive skills. 379 - > So critical thinking, problem solving, communication, being 380 - > able to work in a team, the whole raft of skills which are 381 - > appearing now more frequently in job adverts because we analyze 382 - > job adverts and less so technical skills. 383 - > And we're also seeing a move towards skills as the basis for 384 - > recruitment away from qualifications and credentials. 385 - > And when you think of those cognitive and you think about 386 - > that skills first framework for recruitment, it emphasizes the 387 - > importance of the humanities, the arts and social sciences. 388 - > Because the arts and social sciences and humanities are very 389 - > much about those cognitive skills. 390 - > That's very much what they teach in a whole raft of 391 - > interesting areas of application and in different cognate areas 392 - > and discipline contexts, all very, very important. 393 - > So one thing that I say frequently, whenever I have a 394 - > chance, is to say this is the renaissance of the humanities. 395 - > Wow. 396 - > Because we had concerns about various policy settings that 397 - > have impacted on the humanities in higher education, the 398 - > so-called jobs-ready graduate reforms and the impact that's 399 - > had. 400 - > And I think the generative AI revolution we're in and will 401 - > continue, is going to require more and more people to have the 402 - > skills that comes from an arts degree from an Australian 403 - > university. 404 - > So there's a lot that I think our reports, like Banda and 405 - > higher ed outcomes, I think it tells a remarkably powerful 406 - > story to young people and to people who are being disrupted 407 - > in the labour market in various ways. 408 - > You know, we're in whenever you have an industrial revolution, 409 - > in this case it's a generative AI or an AI revolution, you have 410 - > disruption and you have dislocation and you have job 411 - > losses and new jobs emerge, and the ratio between them changes 412 - > as the impact of the technology takes full effect. 413 - > But when in that context and you're in a vulnerable area, 414 - > then it's important to think about skilling and reskilling. 415 - > And again, it's it's great to have that sense of well, what 416 - > are the pathway opportunities? 417 - > One thing that we recommended in our big Gen AI study last 418 - > year was the critical importance of upskilling all Australians 419 - > in their Gen AI skills. 420 - > It's a major focus for this government in Australia to pick 421 - > up this and to find ways through, I think, empowering our 422 - > future skills organization, one of our great jobs and skills 423 - > councils, under Patrick Kidd, that's focused on this question 424 - > of how do we accelerate AI. 425 - > Skill acquisition because if we don't give people the agency to 426 - > participate in this reimagined future by having the skills 427 - > they need, then they won't be able to participate to their 428 - > full potential. 429 - > So we've got to do all of this baseline uplift. 430 - > And and by the way, there are countries in our region already 431 - > doing that. 432 - > So we've got to be careful we're not left behind. 433 - > But we've also got to be saying all of our vet lecturers, all 434 - > of our academics in universities, they need to be 435 - > confident in the use of AI tools and confident in being able to 436 - > pass on to students those skills. 437 - > So they emerge from degree programs and vet courses ready 438 - > for the workforce of the future. 439 - > And that has to be comfort familiarity with AI. 440 - > You've got to be AI literate and or AI fluent or AI 441 - > competent. 442 - > These are the new competencies and skills that people will need 443 - > to operate. 444 - > Because a lot of technical things are going to be done by 445 - > AI. 446 - > So you've got to have all of those human skills as well as 447 - > all of those cognitive capabilities and that AI 448 - > familiarity in order to be successful. 449 - > One of the other dimensions that you think about reimagining 450 - > the workforce of the future. 451 - > When we did our study, we're interested in two other 452 - > dimensions that I think are really important. 453 - > One is a labour mobility dimension. 454 - > And this this is a really interesting observation that 455 - > some of the areas which are likely to be heavily impacted by 456 - > AI and clerical and administrative tasks often fall 457 - > into this category. 458 - > Many of those are gender biased to women. 459 - > And when you look at the labour mobility of women in those 460 - > particular areas, they end up moving into occupations that are 461 - > also susceptible to impact from AI. 462 - > So when we think about these impacts on the labour market, 463 - > we've got to be careful of gender implications as well as 464 - > implications on First Nations and equity groups. 465 - > But for women, it's quite an interesting challenge that we 466 - > now have to provide an opportunity for people who are 467 - > going to be dislocated in some way by AI and to make sure they 468 - > have an opportunity to move into areas where they can upskill 469 - > and reskill and have confidence in their future. 470 - > So that labour mobility piece, I think, is really important 471 - > about the workforce of the future. 472 - > One of the other areas that gets mentioned a great deal in 473 - > terms of disruption is entry-level jobs. 474 - > And people worried that, in a way, agentic AI will be the 475 - > entry-level graduate intern of the future. 476 - > So what happens to entry-level jobs? 477 - > So that's a very important point. 478 - > We haven't seen that in Australia yet. 479 - > We look very carefully at what happens with entry-level jobs. 480 - > We're not seeing any particular impact in the Australian labour 481 - > market, but there will be some. 482 - > It's interesting in other places the US is seeing some 483 - > impact on entry-level roles. 484 - > When I talk to business leaders in various industry sectors 485 - > about their AI journey, because many of them are not 486 - > particularly AI competent or AI literate, but they understand it 487 - > is a game changer potentially for their industry sector. 488 - > And they're thinking about recruiting, you know, digital 489 - > natives, those who are AI fluent, young people coming in 490 - > entry-level, because they need the knowledge base those people 491 - > bring to influence the way they will capture the benefits of an 492 - > AI-infused future. 493 - > So they see them as part of the upskilling of their own 494 - > workforce and the introduction of new ideas and opportunities. 495 - > So, in a way, that's enhancing the entry-level pathway for 496 - > people who are who are AI literate. 497 - > I've had some great examples of that in different industry 498 - > sectors. 499 - > So I think the AI dimension is a really important one that we 500 - > all have to watch carefully. 501 - > The government's released its national AI strategy, which is 502 - > an important part of shaping the national narrative around 503 - > artificial intelligence. 504 - > The onus now is on a whole range of participants in our 505 - > labour market and in our skills system and more broadly in the 506 - > community to respond to that. 507 - > And we need JSA to some extent and others to monitor the impact 508 - > over time. 509 - > Our report was a point-in-time analysis, but now we need to 510 - > find out well how much of that is going to come to fruition and 511 - > how quickly. 512 - > And where we were a bit different in our analysis to 513 - > some commentators and the media and tech gurus and others is we 514 - > were predicting much more augmentation than automation. 515 - > Yes. 516 - > So our analysis said, well, yes, almost every job to some 517 - > degree or other is going to be augmented by AI, but the job 518 - > will still be there with a very important human dimension to it, 519 - > but supplemented, complemented, and enhanced by AI. 520 - > There'll be hybrid jobs that emerge because AI will allow you 521 - > to create new ways of combining existing work 522 - > together. 523 - > And then, of course, you have an opportunity for new jobs to 524 - > emerge. 525 - > And we've we put out a report last year where we saw just on 526 - > the horizon some emerging spikes of jobs in new areas. 527 - > Again, great asset for young people thinking about 528 - > interesting jobs in the future. 529 - > And want to be a quantum computing technician. 530 - > Not many of them. 531 - > There'll be lots of them in the future. 532 - > Um so there needs to be that you know, very, very careful 533 - > analysis of augmentation versus automation. 534 - > The big job losses we've seen in the tech and the finance 535 - > industry are not surprising. 536 - > In some cases, that that wasn't so much an AI reset as a really 537 - > a reset from companies that have over-recruited in recent 538 - > years. 539 - > So that I think is a reset. 540 - > Some of it's AI driven. 541 - > So we'll see how that plays out in the next few years. 542 - > But I have a very positive view of the reimagined workforce of 543 - > the future because I do think we'll not just equilibrate to 544 - > the benefits of artificial intelligence, but will also 545 - > accommodate the human dimension to work in the future and the 546 - > quality of work. 547 - > It'll take away drudgery from some roles where some 548 - > transactional, repetitive transactional work can disappear 549 - > and people can then refocus on other interesting parts and 550 - > particularly client and customer-centered aspects of the 551 - > role. 552 - > Interestingly, one of the challenges that people talk a 553 - > bit about with AI is work intensity. 554 - > Because if you think about the normal working day, you know, 555 - > you have ebbs and flows, sometimes intensely busy, 556 - > sometimes less so. 557 - > If you take out the parts where you're not very busy, because 558 - > AI will do that part of your work, and you move everything 559 - > into the more intensive zone of activity, that will take its 560 - > toll on people. 561 - > So we need to accommodate changing ways in which people 562 - > will work. 563 - > And um one thing that we emphasized in our study was the 564 - > importance of inclusive implementation of technology in 565 - > the workplace. 566 - > I think if we look at what works successfully, it is when 567 - > workers and management are working together to design the 568 - > implementation of a technology transformation. 569 - > AI is just one example of it. 570 - > So I think in in imagining the future, I'm reassured by many of 571 - > the companies I'm talking to that they're very inclusive. 572 - > And quite often it's because workers are already using AI and 573 - > not telling you that's exactly right. 574 - > Kath Hume: They're the ones doing it. 575 - > So best that we ask them. 576 - > And I think it's that in work intensity is really important as 577 - > well, because I think what I'm seeing is a lot of people 578 - > talking about or hoping for productivity gains from AI, but 579 - > not a lot of conversation around so what do we do with that time 580 - > saved? 581 - > And I think that's a really important thing that we should 582 - > be discussing, and as you said, have a that human-centered 583 - > design approach to be asking the people who are doing it, and 584 - > you you also touched on a few things um aspirations. 585 - > So, what would people like to be doing rather than what do 586 - > organizations just want people to be doing? 587 - > The skill adjacencies that you talked about, you know, 588 - > declining professions, where might they be able to utilize 589 - > those skills elsewhere? 590 - > So I think all of the reports that you're talking about just 591 - > give visibility to people. 592 - > So is there's not that lack of hope or optimism that the world 593 - > is changing around me and I'm helpless to do anything about 594 - > it. 595 - > I think it's a real enabler that you're giving them all of 596 - > this information. 597 - > Um, one of the things that you also mentioned around human 598 - > skills, so I my background is learning and development and HR 599 - > and economics, and I've sort of combined all of those, but 600 - > learning and development, I really think that that learn of 601 - > mobility is going to come about when people are have the 602 - > capability to learn and we need to really build that skill of 603 - > learning independently because we can't always rely on 604 - > organisations to educate us, especially if we're looking at 605 - > upskilling to move outside of an organization. 606 - > But one of the things I'm really interested, and I'm not 607 - > sure if you've how much thought you've put into this. 608 - > So, my role as a strategic workforce planner is to go into 609 - > an organization and and just for listeners, in case they're not 610 - > aware, is to really look at what are the trends happening in the 611 - > environment around the organization that we're thinking 612 - > about over a say probably five to ten year period. 613 - > So we can't predict, we've but we want to anticipate, so we've 614 - > got some capability of adapting to that environment if and when 615 - > it happens, but then putting plans in place to say, okay, 616 - > there's multiple levers that we can move to prepare for this, 617 - > and we can do it in a sustained fashion, and time is that we can 618 - > do it incrementally. 619 - > Um, what do you see for the role of the strategic workforce 620 - > planner in ensuring that your data and reports and 621 - > intelligence is utilized as it's intended to really complement 622 - > the organization, but also the individuals and then the people 623 - > we serve in those organizations? 624 - > Professor Glover: I look, I think it's a fascinating time 625 - > for strategic planning. 626 - > It's it's probably never been quite so challenging in a way. 627 - > Um primarily because um if you look at aspects of the digital 628 - > revolution of the last 30 years or so, the ability to begin to 629 - > scenario plan and and strategic plan what the future might look 630 - > like, as much as you can determine it and then work back 631 - > and start preparing for digital transformation. 632 - > I suspect now with generative and and particularly with 633 - > agentic AI, that's going to be even more challenging to predict 634 - > in a way. 635 - > So strategic planning is going to take on another edge of 636 - > perhaps the time frames are being contracted a little bit. 637 - > Kath Hume: That's correct. 638 - > Professor Glover: And I think that's that's um probably a good 639 - > thing because in Australia, if we want to be competitive, we 640 - > want our businesses and industry to be competitive, and 641 - > particularly if they want to be globally competitive, and the 642 - > time frames are going to contract. 643 - > They're going to need to be thinking not in the five-year 644 - > horizon, but in a two to three-year horizon as they think 645 - > about repositioning themselves for a in a different context. 646 - > So the strategic planning aspects are really important 647 - > part of it. 648 - > I hope that our data is going to be of value. 649 - > I'm sure people will appreciate the way it's been been put 650 - > together. 651 - > And of course, a lot of it is point-of-time data. 652 - > So, apart from our big employment projections over the 653 - > next five and ten years, which are looking out beyond the 654 - > horizon, the rest of the data is really what's the trend been 655 - > like, where are we at, what's emerging, and how do we provide 656 - > some analysis and interpretation around that. 657 - > Interestingly, though, we did recast our five and ten year 658 - > employment projections as part of the generative AI study 659 - > because we wanted to impose upon our model, our equilibrium 660 - > model on the labour market, we wanted to impose upon it some 661 - > additional assumptions around the depth and the breadth of AI 662 - > uptake as a way of saying, well, what does that do to 663 - > employment? 664 - > Because we had all the work we'd done on augmentation and 665 - > automation, and we could make assumptions about how slow or 666 - > how rapidly industry would pick up AI and implement it and so 667 - > on. 668 - > So we did some longer-term forecasting on that. 669 - > And that's, I think, something strategic planners should look 670 - > at because it begins to show not so much an overall decline in 671 - > employment levels, but it shows a different pattern of growth 672 - > over time, particularly initially some flattening out 673 - > and then some increase. 674 - > So we see a different structure to the labour market growth in 675 - > the five-year horizon to the 10-year horizon, but still we 676 - > see growth. 677 - > Now that's driven by some assumptions about augmentation 678 - > and automation, so that needs to be reworked on a fairly regular 679 - > basis, and governments will do that, and and I'm sure the 680 - > Australian government will be doing it. 681 - > But it does, I think, add another dimension to the 682 - > planning horizon work about you know what do we need to be 683 - > saying to businesses about what's likely to happen and how 684 - > to prepare for it and and how to future-proof yourself to a 685 - > certain extent. 686 - > One of the things I often say to young people when they ask 687 - > the question about what I should do to future-proof myself, I 688 - > said, well, be AI literate, because that will help you 689 - > enormously, and have an open mind to the opportunities, 690 - > because there are many opportunities out there. 691 - > But you walk walk into a job interview and that you're 692 - > confident around AI and you understand hallucinations and 693 - > you understand that managing an agentic AI system is to 694 - > interpret and ensure that you have the capacity to ensure the 695 - > outcomes and the output from that are actually fit for 696 - > purpose. 697 - > So there's a lot to be said for someone walking in 698 - > future-proofing themselves, just as businesses need to take 699 - > advantage of that data that we have, point in time, and some of 700 - > the longer-term trend stuff to help in longer-term planning. 701 - > Kath Hume: Oh, there's so much richness in all of you have to 702 - > say and all of those reports. 703 - > I will send links to all of those and I'll include those in 704 - > the show notes. 705 - > You have touched on this already, but I do ask every 706 - > guest, what does your reimagined workforce look like? 707 - > Professor Glover: As I said, I'm really positive about the 708 - > future, despite some of the almost dystopian views you hear 709 - > from people about robotics and AI and the future. 710 - > I'm much more confident about the future than that. 711 - > And so my reimagined workforce actually comes back to something 712 - > Kathy, you said a little earlier, which was around 713 - > productivity gain. 714 - > When I talk to colleagues in the public service about AI, I 715 - > refer them to a particularly telling graph that's in our AI 716 - > study. 717 - > And it shows hours worked mapped against salary increases 718 - > in the professional areas of the economy over the last 20 years. 719 - > And what it shows is hours worked going up steeply, salary 720 - > increases nowhere near a steep. 721 - > So one of the first things we need to capture with AI is 722 - > around recapturing our life and our work-life balance. 723 - > Because it is a great tool to help us to better manage our 724 - > work when it's used appropriately. 725 - > And I think the big copilot trial that was done by the 726 - > Australian Public Service showed that yes, people could see how 727 - > it could benefit them, whether they're policy makers in the 728 - > general policy sense or whether they're more specialists, they 729 - > could see how it can take away some of the challenges they face 730 - > if they've got the capacity to manage it well and could be of 731 - > huge benefit. 732 - > So my first comment is let's get ourselves back equilibrated 733 - > in life. 734 - > I think when I reimagine the workforce of the future, I see a 735 - > workforce where people have got that balance in their life. 736 - > And I see a workforce which is much more inclusive. 737 - > One of the things that we spend a lot of time looking at at 738 - > JSA, and I shout at every opportunity, is the benefit of a 739 - > diverse workforce. 740 - > So we've done studies to look at the relationship between 741 - > occupational shortages and gender segregation. 742 - > So if you're in a gender segregated occupation, so 743 - > male-dominated or female dominated, much more likely to 744 - > be in shortage. 745 - > If you have a balance of men and women in your workforce, 746 - > you're less likely to have shortages. 747 - > The same applies to an aged workforce. 748 - > If you have a reasonable proportion of older workers, 749 - > you're less likely to be in shortage. 750 - > And that's 45 and above. 751 - > And in fact, if you have a multi-generational workforce, 752 - > you're less likely to be in shortage. 753 - > The benefits of older workers working with younger workers is 754 - > hugely important. 755 - > If you have more First Nations employees, if you have more 756 - > people with disability working in your organization, you're 757 - > less likely to have shortages. 758 - > The other important thing that we note is that occupational 759 - > shortages, high levels of shortages, equate to low levels 760 - > of productivity. 761 - > So if we want to uplift productivity, let's make our 762 - > workplaces more inclusive. 763 - > So my reimagined workforce of the future is one where the 764 - > balance is there in people's lives. 765 - > And importantly, we have a very diverse and inclusive labour 766 - > market. 767 - > And by virtue of that, we are managing occupational shortages 768 - > and we're driving up productivity in the national 769 - > benefit. 770 - > And of course, there's the dimension that that should bring 771 - > around the quality of work and that people are paid 772 - > appropriately for the quality in quality jobs because we want 773 - > people, and this is something, again, AI can help us with in 774 - > many, many ways. 775 - > So I have a very positive view of a reimagined workforce. 776 - > I also think people will engage with that labour market in very 777 - > different ways. 778 - > Absolutely. 779 - > That's exciting. 780 - > Sometimes they'll be a contractor, sometimes they'll be 781 - > a part-time employee, sometimes they will be a full-time 782 - > employee, and sometimes they'll be on a short-term contract and 783 - > whatever. 784 - > This is the nature of a dynamic workforce. 785 - > We do need to see higher levels of labour mobility in 786 - > Australia. 787 - > We've seen that decline in recent years. 788 - > People are not leaving one job and moving to another to 789 - > advance their opportunities, to increase their salaries that we 790 - > saw historically. 791 - > We need to see more labour mobility because that's good for 792 - > the economy. 793 - > It brings more people into the economy and it's a wonderful 794 - > opportunity. 795 - > And I'd like to think the reimagined workforce is one 796 - > where the barriers to participation are lowered 797 - > considerably so people have an opportunity from a disadvantaged 798 - > background to participate to their full potential and to see 799 - > that much more prominently than we we see at the moment. 800 - > And I think that's an aspiration everyone should 801 - > share. 802 - > But I see it in a very positive way, Kath. 803 - > Kath Hume: And it's so great that you're in the position you 804 - > are because I think that optimistic future that you're 805 - > painting that picture of is so appealing to me, and I'm sure it 806 - > would be to others. 807 - > But I think we need someone with that optimism to be leading 808 - > this work because you can see that's at the foundations of 809 - > everything that's being provided, it's all about how do 810 - > we make the future better. 811 - > So, on that note, thank you so, so much for setting aside the 812 - > time. 813 - > I know you're a very busy person and got very big 814 - > responsibilities. 815 - > So really appreciate that. 816 - > Could I ask if people wanted to contact you, is there a way 817 - > that you would be happy for them to do so? 818 - > Professor Glover: Yes, Jobs and Skills Australia has a very 819 - > straightforward public communications arrangement 820 - > through our website so people can always get in touch. 821 - > It's not hard to get in touch with me, it's barney.glover@ 822 - > jobsandskills.gov.au. 823 - > So very happy for people who have an interest in the labour 824 - > market. 825 - > We're about to go to public consultation on our next work 826 - > plan. 827 - > So if people have ideas about what they think we should 828 - > prioritize under our act, um we've just been reviewed, and 829 - > our act has just been reviewed in a very positive way for JSA. 830 - > But our act requires us to go to public consultation on many, 831 - > many things. 832 - > So if people are interested, they should have a look at our 833 - > website. 834 - > It'll tell them how they can participate in our public 835 - > consultation. 836 - > And it's always valuable to have people from diverse parts 837 - > of society tell us a little bit about their lived experience, 838 - > the labour market and the skill system and their ideas for where 839 - > we might focus our work in the future. 840 - > Kath Hume: What an incredible opportunity for all of us to 841 - > actually shape the work plan. 842 - > That's amazing. 843 - > That's perfect timing, too. 844 - > And I will include information about all of that in the show 845 - > notes. 846 - > So thank you so much, Professor Glover. 847 - > It's been a pleasure. 848 - >

Speaker 1: Thank you, Kathryn. 849 - > Great talking to you, and good luck with number 51 after this. 850 - > Kath Hume: Thank you very much. 851 - > Thanks for listening to the Reimagined Workforce Podcast. 852 - > If you found the episode valuable, I'd encourage you to 853 - > share it with your network and subscribe so you don't miss any 854 - > further conversations. 855 - > You can also find show notes and resources at www.workforce 856 - > transformations.com.au slash podcast. 857 - > If you're looking to take a more structured and practical 858 - > approach to strategic workforce planning or capability 859 - > development, you can connect with me on LinkedIn or Via the 860 - > Workforce Transformations website. 861 - > But for now, let's just enjoy reimagining the workforce 862 - > together.