Your Launch Docs Suck Because You Followed the Template to the T w/Talya Heller

Talya: This is Zoe, and you're listening to Product Marketing for your.

Host: Welcome back to another episode of, uh, Product Marketing for you. So, fair warning, this one's a little bit different. My friend Talia showed up on her birthday, and honestly, we just talked. No registructure, no heavy prep. Just two people who know each other ripping into why we all blindly follow templates and pretend they're gospel. Now, if you've ever met Talia, you know she's a vibe. She's got this way of making you feel like you're not crazy for thinking something's off, even if you can't quite articulate why yet. And she's funny as hell about it. She runs down to a T, helps enterprise teams build positioning that actually moves deals, and has spent her entire career watching PMMs ship docs that feel half baked because they followed a framework instead of doing the work their business needed. But mostly this episode is just what happens when two people decide to have a real conversation with about the stuff we are all too polite to say out loud. If you've ever shipped something and wondered if it was actually good or if you were just supposed to think it was good because the template told you it was, this episode is for you. Okay, let's take a quick break, and then we'll jump right into my conversation with Talia. This season's partner is PMM Camp, the number one resource for product marketing leaders with access to newsletters, leadership frameworks, and a vetted peer community. It's where smart senior PMMs like you go to become indispensable. And most of this season's guests are actually campers themselves. So consider this your sneak peek into what life is like as a camper. Go to pmmcamp.com and join me and 9000PMMs and counting on our journey to become the next wave of product marketing leaders. Product marketing for you.

Talya: Product marketing for you.

Host: What we're here talking about is probably the only episode that I feel comfortable not doing full on, like, notes and questions because, A, I feel like you and I vibe pretty good already. B, we both share the very much real pain point of, uh, if you are a product marketer using templates, um, to either do positioning, messaging, anything in between, especially in support of launches, and, uh, you're following that to a T. See what I did there? Product placement. You're, um, missing out. You're already messed up. Yeah, yeah, I'm not getting affiliate money. Just to be clear. Uh, and honestly, what was once okay with, uh, the product marketing alliances of the World, their templates, uh, what feels like from like 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, maybe 20 decades ago. It feels like sometimes is not the actual Bible and it shouldn't be. There's nuance between here, point A and point B, where your team needs to be and you're hired to do a specific job. But I digress because you are the expert. I just have a lot of scar tissue around this issue.

Talya: I feel like that's how we're all experts. Right? Like, we're just bonded by trauma. Uh, we were all in the position one time when we found a cool template or framework and we were like, this is it. This is gonna make me famous in my company and everyone's gonna love me. And then we followed that and we saw it was crap. So we've all been there.

Host: Well, in fact, if, like, I, uh, remember the specific feedback. Do you expect anyone to read this 20 page template?

Talya: No.

Host: Yeah, kind of. But then AI came along, fixed it with custom, like Claude skills and custom GPTs and.

Talya: Well, and now no one reads anything because now people just let their Claud thing read their everything, all their stuff and think for them. So this is even worse. That was impossible.

Host: I did it for five hours today. Granted, I was pretty interactive with it. Just call me buddy by the end of the day. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. Uh, but you have experience helping guiding companies PMMs. You've lived this experience. From a psychological standpoint, is it just a safe spot to start with a template? Also, I'm lazy when it comes to I don't want to build this out in a Google Doc. So that's my thing. Um, I'm bringing that in and then we could chop skew. But from your point of view, why do we even start at this point?

Talya: So I don't think that there's anything wrong with wanting to see something that even in theory worked for other people. Right. Like, I don't think we need to, like, reinvent the wheel every time and all of that. Like, there's nothing wrong with it. Um, I think where it gets murky is that. And again, like I said before, and I, and I do think that, like, we've all kind of been there, especially when you're more junior and you're not super confident, like, you haven't done the thing a thousand times times. Uh, and you really hope that. Well, like, I found this really good template and I looked for a bunch and I picked this one because this one seems the best. So I kind of did the Pre work and I used my brain, um, and then we try to use it and then yeah, it's like either no one cares or we get called out for yes, like this is fine, but like what does that thing get us? And I don't know about you, but like I've been there a few times. Um, and yeah, and it sucks. And I think that there's this again, it's this balance of not necessarily wanting to, you know, start kind of like rethinking things that are kind of working. Um, but then again there's this balance of. Well, you know, we also need to kind of have that um, self awareness that not everything that we find on the Internet or LinkedIn, um, is going to. Is like a magic silver bullet. Unfortunately, that's not the way I wish it was.

Host: I'd be so much richer.

Talya: I wish to.

Host: Uh, and this is a great point here, um, and you were just telling me a story that I'm going to make you retell specifically around make it punchy. The book itself, which I've read front to cover probably three or four times now, it is phenomenal. But also it lacks my specific context. Your specific context and for whoever's listening, your specific context, um, where you can probably apply a good chunk of it but you're going to miss some nuance. What to you does that you had a specific point where you're like, oh yeah, what did that look like for you?

Talya: Yeah, right before we started recording, I was sharing uh, that story. So I remember I was working on a project kind of, um, pretty soon after I finished reading the book. So and I was like, while I was working on the project, when it came down to like the messaging part, uh, of that engagement, like I went back to my notes and to like my CDS and you know, like all the cliff notes I had in the book. Um, and I was like so excited to apply some of the stuff there. Uh, but then in reality, you know, there's. And again I think like it works for like in some of the cases and sometimes again there's like for that company specifically, um, some of these things were not, you know, like directionally was fine but like at the end of the day we still needed to. When I say we, I mean I still needed to like rework and kind of tweak so much and like there was a lot of good feedback. And again like the feedback was good. Uh, but like it's not. Again, it's not a silver bullet. And I have, you know, like that's just one example Um, I have examples from earlier in my career. I remember, like, you know, finding this, like, narrative framework, uh, somewhere, like on a PMA website. And I was so excited. And not to mention Idle Card, which are kind of like my nemesis. Uh, so many templates for battle cards, uh, and, you know, so many ways to do them, but there are very, very few that are actually good. Um, and sellers still won't use them. So again, like, you follow a framework, but it's like, it doesn't guarantee success.

Host: It's like, just, do our sellers. Do the people who are enabling really need to know when a company was. Was actually created in their competitor cards? Maybe.

Talya: I mean, maybe exactly. Like, they may or may not. Like, if you have a. Like, if you're going somewhere with it, then sure. Um, but yeah, I agree. Like, like automatically. Probably not. Or,

Host: well, even. I was telling you a perfect example today. Uh, I was building through a positioning document. Ah. Where I was using the, uh, PMM's Lord and Savior, April Dunford's book. Uh, obviously. Awesome. Which, uh, thank you. April, if you're listening to this, I love you, but there was a lot of things in context for what, uh, my current role and job and team need that wasn't necessarily covered. It's okay. I, um, think April understands that I had to alter it a little bit, but it also came with internal feedback of, like, hey, this is what we need. Here's context. Like, we're missing X, Y and Z. Cool. I'd rather do that in week three than in year three. It saves me a lot of heartache. Um, for you then, if you're thinking about, okay, especially if I'm new in my PMM role and I want to make sure I don't fall into this. What are you thinking about from your perspective in terms of how do you find the weak spots of like, oh, this framework's great for getting started, but I'm seeing holes or gaps here, here, and here. Does that come naturally over time? Do you have a way to pressure test that? Like, what does that look like for you?

Talya: Yeah. So first of all, I'll start by saying that my relationship with frameworks improve, and I started kind of reframing them to myself. So instead of, you know, calling them a framework and thinking like, oh, this is like, this is how you're supposed to do it. Like, this is how the best companies in the world are doing this. So. And like, you know, they must be right. They must be onto something. They've done it. Like, you know, the people who develop These frameworks have done it more time than I did. Um, I started calling them in my brain thought processes. So, you know, so instead of a framework, just, you know, it's a thought process. So it's, you know, it will and should be, you know, adjusted and changed and kind of flexible. And you, you, like, it's not a rigid thing. It's more like a clay thing. Like, you kind of mold it to what you need it to be. Um, and then I think to your question, something again. And I think even PMMs that are kind of new at what they do, especially if they're coming from other areas of the business, we all have patterns that we've seen, right? Like, and it doesn't matter if you're coming from marketing or sales or customer success or product or like, you know, doesn't really matter. Like, we're in their organization. Like, you've seen things, you have work experience, and maybe it's not even in tech. And that's also fine because humans are humans and a customer is customer everywhere. And you can, you know, you can learn from, from every experience. Um, but yeah, I think kind of even if you decide to follow a framework and work through the thought process and the steps, even before you share that with more people, just ask yourself, is there anything here that this doesn't cover in this business that I'm working on right now? Is there anything that I, um, don't know will come up as I show this to five or seven people? Like, what would that person in sales is going to ask me when I show them that? What is that person like from each team? So this is kind of like a good exercise to like internalize what you've done and kind of stress test even before you're sharing it more broadly. Like, does it even cover, uh, kind of like the business, like the constraints? Like, does it make sense? Um, like things like that. And again, you can really rely on your past experience when you do that. Because if you know, well, if product does this, engineering always says this, you can use that because you can kind of anticipate some of, uh, the questions or the concerns or kind of like the gaps that might be there.

Host: Yeah, it's a good call out. I'm much more inclined to also throw whatever template. And sure, Product Marketing alliance is a great example of just, we'll call it a treasure trove of templates. Uh, but grabbing those and throwing into Claude, into ChatGPT, um, and saying, uh, as you're working through it, like, hey, this is my context. You, I'M talking on the gp. I'm talking to AI. Now you are a senior PMM in X industry. Your job is to be ultra. Um, we'll say, oh, you know what? The word uh is escaping me. Dang it. Um, basically your job is to rip apart this, this framework and expose where and what is not being covered that's pertinent to my business. That's actually been really, really helpful in providing additional context. Um, helps me to think clear and also alternate paths to thinking that normally I wouldn't. Um, and also, I'm really just covering my basis in case AI does overtake the world at some point in the near future. They know I'm a friend, I'm an ally. So that's been really helpful. In addition to the iterative feedback, like you mentioned, kind of covering both bases pretty quickly. And like, man, I wish I would have had AI in this capacity five, six years ago, um, to help me think through things better, more clearly instead of. I remember the first positioning doc I wrote was ridiculously long. Thank you for, uh, a template. And it's just like 26 pages of just like, stuff that was never used. To your point. You're like, no one actually is going to use 96.

Talya: No one's going to read it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and this is also, I think it's this, like, example is a really good use of AI. Um, but I think, like, you know, before that. So before that was a thing back in the day, I remember we, we

Host: walked to the office. We use pens and paper.

Talya: So I. And like, I do rem. Remember, you know, looking for templates. And again, kind of like, okay, before I even put my thoughts of what I think this should look like, I want to see what good looks like at other companies. And you're looking for examples and everyone, like, we all have these, like, swipe files of, like, inspiration. Um, and then when PMA became a thing, then great, like, you have another, like, resource that has so many examples. But I feel, I feel like even then there was that exercise of, like, you're opening these templates. Um, and like, not necessarily at pma, right? Like, at, you know, there were like, there were other types of repositories that offered that. And you kind of open the templates and you're like, is this even good? Like, like, really, is that what good looks like? Because that doesn't look so great to me. Like, I can think of, you know, like, I don't know why I need this. And I can think of like, 10 things that aren't here. And I think again, kind of like going back to, well, like, if this is the first time you're doing the thing, then. Or if you're very junior, then this may be, you know, call it imposter syndrome. M. Or, you know, like, or something. But maybe you're thinking, well, even though my BS meter is kind of going off right now, like, what do I know? Um, but actually I do, you know, and like, this is kind of like a. Ah, it's like a. It's like a life advice, right? It's like, well, if. If you have a. At least like, voice it to someone, like, ask for a second opinion. Kind of like, how does that look like to you? Because I am thinking this is kind of a five. Um, and you know, like, maybe, maybe, um, you know, get some advice from a few other people. If you're not super confident that you got this right, and maybe you're like, well, like, what do I know? Uh, it's my first time building that thing. Um, but yeah, I do think that there's a little bit of that. And I think that's kind of like the cautionary tale, like almost now, like these days with AI that we're just like, what? Like, great, I'm just gonna have AI be like the critic, like the black hat, and they're gonna turn this down. Um, and when my Claude says it's good, then it's probably good, then, you know, I would say again, it's kind of like it's a fine line, right? So, you know, always check the work. Either it was produced or critiqued by AI before, or it's a template that you found by an amazing person like April and kind of stress tested to your, um, circumstances. Um, and if, and if you kind of got a, you like a hunch about that, you know, follow through and. Because I think again, like, the odds are if your BS meter goes off, then someone else's will too.

Host: Let's hope so.

Talya: At least sometimes.

Host: Yeah, sometimes we learn to live in that kind of weird crux as a pmm. Um, I think the other thing too, too that's really cool about the, uh, year of our PMM 2026 is that there's really great communities, um, which if you haven't checked out PMM Camp, they're the sponsor of this season's episodes of product marketing for you. Uh, both you and I are part of that. Consequently, um, and there's communities like that. I like to poke a prod at pma, but they're also a Great resource, uh, too if you're looking for people or accountability buddies who need to help check down some iteration of something you're creating. Like, it's never been a more open and inviting product marketing community, I would argue as it is right now, which is phenomenal. Um, and never been a lack more, probably never been more resources than there is today. I would argue with books specifically coming out that are huge. Right. Um, from that perspective, what are your go to resources for? We'll say inspiration. I don't want to say templates anymore, but for ways to go and approach different problems or to solve from your point of view. Like what are your go tos?

Talya: Hmm, great. M. Question. So I think communities as you mentioned, is one that's for sure been, you know, very useful. Um, and I would even say not necessarily product marketing communities, but just like more kind of like, you know, like zoom out a little bit. Right? Like if you want more perspectives, like if, if you only want to appease to product marketing, then yeah, just go and talk to other PMMs. Uh, but if you want to be easy to work with, if you want to have a sense of what the hell is going on in other functions of the marketing department, uh, talk to other marketers who are not PMMs. Uh, same if you want to, you know, if you want to know what's uh, up, um, in other departments, kind of like find those avenues as well. I think for those things specifically I found, especially in the last, I don't know, like four to five years, LinkedIn was a great source to just learn about these other functions because, um, you know, maybe you're lucky and you work at a really good company and it's pretty collaborative and you can get time with your CSMs and your sales engineers and all that and you can actually get their perspectives from inside the organization. But that's still kind of like an echo chamber, right? So like they are from other functions, but from the same company as you. But you know, past colleagues that you have maybe you got in touch with and if not, LinkedIn is. I just, I discovered LinkedIn as like a source of knowledge way before I started to post there. Um, and I loved it as that. But again it was, you know, a few years ago, so it definitely looked different than it does now and then I think other, like honestly other companies even and kind of just like get those, like go to inspirations, like what companies are doing stuff that you think are cool, that are working, um, that people talk about that seem interesting to you and they don't have to be B2B or SaaS or even in tech. They can be, it can be, you know, anything. Right? Like, inspiration does not necessarily only come from uh, you know, like our immediate, like our like the same industry or any. Or anything like that. Um, I think it's kind of like it's, it's. It's almost like the opposite. I sometimes find it's easier to find really good ideas uh, when you kind of go, I would say side the very familiar, you know, grounds. Um, which is kind of why. Which is a different conversation entirely. But like you and I talked about this a little bit too. This is why, uh, in my newsletter, like I don't necessarily write on product marketing stuff specifically. I just write of like, oh, this company did something that's kind of interesting. And you know, I've wrote before on like about Lego and DJs making hit tracks from TikTok Labubus. The inspiration for stuff that gets people to react and move, uh, is truly

Host: everywhere I think to that point though, uh, which if you're not subscribed Talia's newsletter you should uh, because the email she's referencing is uh, from a couple weekends ago that actually uh, ended up with us talking here. Um, and it was so intriguing because it was the workings of positioning in a competitive and ultra competitive environment, um, that I had no idea was going on. And it was all tied around to positioning and the process of that and how two companies took two totally different trails. Uh, and we'll leave it at that. Uh, but from that perspective, it's like I started even looking at if we go out to eat, like m. I'm always curious. I'm thinking of like how. How are restaurants trying to get me to buy more stuff? Ultimately as marketers, which we are, um, our, our job is to convince people that what we have is what they want and what they need with words, pictures, video, social media. However that is um. And so like from that perspective, I agree, like most of of the inspiration for this pod did not come from other marketers. It came from way outside sources, which is fun. But um, um, but it keeps things fresh. And also I will argue that B2C marketers are way, way more cooler than us B2B marketers. So I constantly am looking.

Talya: The bar is low.

Host: We get really excited when we use. We don't use the word synergy. So that tells you where we're at as a collective.

Talya: You, uh, know what, it's funny because I generally I really agree with you but I remember like when I was in grad school and kind of just got into marketing. Like, the idea of working at a CPG company seemed so horrible to me. Uh, but I do agree that, you know, there's. There's actually like, I. I think in B2B, we think as B2C marketing as like, oh, they get to be so creative and do these fun things and all of that, but they're actually so analytical. Um, but yeah, it's just like, uh, you know, you're either wired to be super excited to write and tell stories about, like, APIs, or you are about chips and soda.

Host: I don't know.

Talya: It's just like, we're just different animals.

Host: There's no in between. It's either APIs or chips. Depends on the salsa. I, uh, will say that. And the chips, because there's a big difference. Um, I a, it's your birthday today.

Talya: It is.

Host: I'm not going to sing to you because I don't have auto tune turned on, but I don't want to keep you any longer. Um, but you have been incredibly generous to swing by on your birthday to talk through some of these things. I think the TLDR is don't be dumb, because templates are there as a jumping off point, but really, it's your job to be analytical, to understand, get feedback, uh, to figure out and plug the holes that are very specific to your company and your story to tell.

Talya: And trust yourself. If you haven't seen this thing work at any company that you've been at, then, yeah, trust yourself.

Host: You know, it'll be time. Yeah. Go find yourself a friend in PMM camp. The sponsor of this? No, I was just joking. Two ad reads in one episode. Get out of here. Uh, Talia, happy birthday. Thank you for stopping by. And who knows, maybe we should do this more permanently at some point.

Talya: Maybe.

Host: All right, if you're still listening to this episode, this has been another episode of the product marketing for you podcast. I cannot legally tell you to give me a five star rating on Spotify because of.

Talya: I can tell him, right? Give it 5 stars Rate, subscribe, do your thing at all the platform. He's only on Spotify right now.

Host: I know. I need to fix that. Maybe I'll do it. It'll probably spike up my viewing by like, two. There you go. All right, y', all, thank you for listening and we'll catch you on the next.