TRANSFORMATION IS NO LONGER OPTIONAL || Katie Stephen || Process Pioneers

Speaker A: Those that eventually falling into the fail bucket and it's tick, tick, tick. We've done everything that we needed to do. We can close the project and then off we go. Um, and that's where it falls over.

Speaker B: Welcome to Process Pioneers, the show that takes a deep dive into the minds of decision makers, key influencers and process experts who are pioneering the world of everything process. Welcome to the next episode of Process Pioneers. My name is Daniel Rayner. I'm the host of Process Pioneers and in each of these episodes I have the absolute privilege of sitting down with uh, industry experts and specialists uh on all areas when it comes to business process management and every other complementary topic as well. It's a very uh broadcast podcast we've got going here and uh, if you are joining us for the first time a warm welcome to you. Uh, we are into the hundreds of episodes episodes around about 180 episodes we've released so far. So if you, you enjoyed this uh, episode which I know you will uh, then there are plenty more episodes for you to go and glean from. And if you've been following us for some time, a uh, warm welcome back to you and if you could give us a rating or a review on whatever uh, platform you're listening to this right now that would be much appreciated. We've received tons of great feedback uh, from our audience uh, as to the value that they're getting from these episod and the more ratings and reviews we get the more that that's going to continue to spread this podcast podcast out to those that uh, need and want to hear it. Uh, so in today's episode I have the absolute privilege of sitting, sitting down with Katie Steven. Now Katie is the head of transformation at uh Batcore and has, has been heavily involved in transformation work over the past 15 years, uh working with many global organizations uh throughout the world, many different countries. Very excited for this conversation. Katie, thanks for join.

Speaker A: Thank you Daniel. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. This episode is brought to you by GBTech. Steer your company to success with the intuitive BIC platform. You raise the performance of your processes to a whole new level. Higher productivity, speed and quality. Head over to GBTech.com and start scaling your digital future today.

Speaker B: So Katie, when we were talking just before we got started, you mentioned something to me. You said 70% of transformation programs, programs fail. Uh, statistic from McKinsey and I think that's uh, that really stood out to me. Uh, and I think something that I wanted to kick start this uh, our conversation off with, uh, because I think that's an alarming uh, stat and I think, I'm not sure how many people would be aware of that. I'm sure people out, ah, listening to this right now would be nodding their head being like, yep, and I'm going through one of those at the moment or I've just been through one of those. So why do you think it's such a, why do you think that that percentage is so high? 70%. That's quite alarming, I would say.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's hugely alarming and thank you for bringing that back up. Um, I actually recently talked in Sydney, as you know, and also in Toronto at the OPEX weeks, um, and they say that you should start your presentation with a jaw dropping kind of statistic. So that was, that was up there, the number, um, on the slide and it got people's attention straight away. Right, so how do we not fall into that 70%? Um, it was even from about 2017 I believe it was either, you know, it's not a new statistic. Um, so I can only imagine that that number has increased. Um, and I actually did a bit of Googling a couple of months back to see how much money we were spending on transformation. Um, and digital transformation alone in 2023 it's estimated that we're spending 2.3 billion across the world. So it's a lot of dollars. 70%. Um, so yeah, it's definitely worth paying attention to. Um, and for me one of the main reasons why, why we have such a huge number there is because we don't truly understand as organizations what it means to make the transformation program that we're delivering stick. Right. So, um, I don't know the statistics on this, but I would bet that a, ah, huge proportion of those that eventually falling into the fail bucket, um, you know, whether consultants are involved or not, they kind of, you know, they run as projects or programs and they reach their end point and it's tick, tick, tick. We've done everything that we needed to do. We can close the project and then off we go. Um, and that's where it falls over. And I always say, you know, I talk a lot about the difference between change versus transformation. Um, I've heard a million different definitions out there. I think that, that, you know, there are many that are right. The, the one that resonates most with me is change fixes the past and transformation creates a brand new future. So fixes versus creates, if you think from a psychology perspective, it's, it's a very different mindset for an individual and an organization to play. Um, and change is very, very necessary. But transformation is the more kind of sexy version. Um, and I'd always say that actually a true transformation program should never have an endpoint. Um, so which makes it complicated when, when you have external people involved and they want to kind of sign off something and then they can, they can exit. But for me, a true transformation is, is self sustaining. And that's part of the, the closure of the transformation is that it becomes self sustaining within BAU M. That's great.

Speaker B: And I think that there are um, many examples of organizations that aren't continuously transforming. And in one generation they're, you know, one of the world's largest organizations. And then the next generation, they're non existent. Um, and they're quite a few examples out there. Um, what you obviously mentioned there. Transformation needs to be continuous and needs to be ongoing. And that makes total sense. What can you break us that down a little bit more for us? Um, what are the key ingredients that are required for a successful. I guess it's called a culture of transformation because as you say, it needs to be embodied by the organization, by the people, by the hands and feet that are part of it. And that's going to keep it sustainable. What are these key ingredients that we need to be aware of?

Speaker A: Yeah, so love that question. Um, so for me it's, you know, I love what you touched on around the nature of the world that we live in. Right. Two generations ago, even one generation ago, at the beginning of my career, um, I read a great analogy in a book called Tomorrow Mind, which is written by Dr. Martin Seligman, who's the godfather of positive psychology. Um, and he talks about the skills that are needed in the future for thriving at work. Um, and he uses this great analogy and he says that in our parents generation, um, people started their careers and typically they worked at one organization, certainly within one industry typically, and they could see where they were going. They were on this slow and steady journey from the start of their careers right until the very end. It was almost like they were in this steamship. Occasionally there were, you know, slight veers off course you might change role or department or get a promotion, but by and large you're on a steamship, you know where you're going. And then I guess, you know, 20, 30 years ago when we really started to use technology not in the way that we, that we know it today, but when we started to get computers and send emails and things, um, that that changed and people started Traveling more and the world was more accessible. And instead of steamships, it became more like sailboats. Okay, so you'd kind of start here and you'd have one destination and maybe 10 or 15 years later, and then you'd reach that. And then, and then you'd go to another place and so on and so on. And then, you know, fast forward to where we are today since 2007, since we all got these things called iPhones in our pockets. Um, since the convergence of technology, you know, new technologies are converging. That's what's really happening today in the last few years in particular, which is creating the, this exponential, um, change. We're no longer on steamboats, we're no longer on, um, on, you know, um, sailboats. We're whitewater rafting. And that's the reality of how we need to view our careers today. Um, but yet we're working in a workplace where we have such a broad mix of generations. We have people that are in their 60s, 70s, that started their career in a steamboat, and they're thinking, what's happening? I want stability. I don't really like change. This transformation word is freak. Um, and I want to know exactly where we're going. Whereas you've got, you know, young people coming in and they like change, they like excitement, they want to be challenged, they want fast moving, they want fast paced, they want different technologies, different channels. And for the first time ever, we're having to cope with the workplace. You know, one of the factors that's super important is recognizing that, that variation that we have all in, in one melting pot called the organization that we're working in. So for me, it's first and foremost taking a step back and recognizing why is it so necessary today? A, because we have this mix of people, B, because it's so new. C, because of this exponential, um, increase in technology. Not just individual technology advancements, but the convergence of them. Now, nobody in, um, the hotel industry thought of Airbnb, Nobody in the music industry thought of Spotify. Um, nobody in the banking industry thought of PayPal. These are examples of truly transformative, brand new future, new way of thinking, convergence of technologies that just overnight. You know, there was once this company called Blockbuster. You know, they had no idea what, what was happening when Netflix came along. Um, and so really just being able to understand, um, that we need to create these mindsets of transformation in order to make sure that we're here not only in 10 years time, but in the next kind of five years is key. So back to Your question about what are the components? Um, I think it's really, really critical. For me, it's a human thing. Right. The end point is for an organization to create a culture of transformation. And I'm sure we're going to dive into that in a bit more detail. Um, but it's important to point out that a culture is. That needs to be cultivated, needs to be grown. It cannot be given to you by an external consultant. Um, I think external consultants are great. They absolutely have their value, but it's important to recognize what they can and can't do. M. They can certainly help you to plant seeds for developing this culture. Um, but essentially these cultures, these ways of being, take time to develop. Um, so for me, I talk to organizations about planting the seeds, the right seeds now for the future that we want to grow. Um, and mindsets, behaviors, you know, things like resilience. Super important. And there are some great organizations out there, um, that actually break down the components of these different kind of mindsets and behaviors that you want to create on top of your usual kind of project management skills and change management skills. And, you know, no longer organizations that I'm working with, no longer is it, um, the right thing that we have a project management department or a change management department, and only those people do change in project management. It's now very much the case where everybody needs to have these skills to develop and to plant the right seeds.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And as you're saying, like, you've got, in the one organization, you've got people from all different ages, all different generations, um, even all different sort of cultural backgrounds, I guess, especially when you're working with. On a global perspective, in a global organization that have different areas, how are we creating the future as a global entity in unison, um, working with one another so we're not just little siloed area pockets all around the world. But that seems like such a huge challenge.

Speaker A: Huge challenge. And honestly, Daniel, the positive psychology part of me is actually saying, huge opportunity, hugely missed opportunity. Um, there's a great author called Rasmus Ankrisson who talks about the, um. He was a professional footballer but got injured. And he studies the anthropology of, um, talent. He's written a great book called the Goldman Effect. And he asked himself, he said, why is it that most of the world's top marathon runners come from this small village in Kenya? Why is it that most of the world's top sprinters come from Kingston in Jamaica? Um, you know, tennis players in huge number in Russia, um, women golfers in South Korea he noticed these patterns and he went off and he explored why. Um, and he says that talent exists everywhere. Um, and it's actually the job of the coach. A good coach will recognize talent, a great coach will recognize potential talent, and an exceptional coach will create the right environment in which potential talent can flourish. So today, you know, thinking about the skills that we need in the future as leaders, it's no longer our job to know everything. We do not need to be coding experts or, you know, or subject matter experts. That is not the skill that leaders of Tomorrow requires. Yes, it helps and it's very complementary. Um, but really for me, the leaders of tomorrow are going to excel because they know how to create the environments, to unleash, unleash the power of their team. And you know, and the reality is when you've got that multi, generational, multi, you know, diverse, multi skilled, you know, everyone has, it's no longer the standard, oh, I've got an English degree or I've got a maths degree. Like people have come from such beautifully colorful backgrounds and, and for us, you know, the skill is being able to untap that. And I love to say to people when I start working with them, how much untapped potential do you think, you know, you have in your team? Love to invite people to reflect on that because, you know, not only in yourself, how much untouched potential is in myself, but in my team. And if you aggregate that all up, you know, that's huge.

Speaker B: And I think that with, you know, as you're saying, you know, being able to, having an English degree or a maths degree or, or being qualified in those areas or uh, or you know, whatever it might be, obviously becomes less and less as technology continues to evolve, uh, and transform and adapt and supplement our, you know, the work that we're doing. And especially in this era of artificial intelligence, everything, everything's got artificial intelligence in it now, or will, will, will have that. Um, those skills are supported and supplemented by technology. So I guess the M1 area, uh, that we need to be, what I'm hearing, the area that we need to be drilling into and diving into further is um, understanding people, working with people. Like the whole psychology element of transformation. How important is that to transformation?

Speaker A: I think it's huge. To your point, we can now Google anything that we want to. Some schools in some countries more than others, have a long way to catch up on recognizing that. I think that, that um, and this is a whole other topic, but it's a, it's uh, amazing how um, behind the the curve. A lot of, um, school examination systems still are on this aspect, but, yeah, when we have these mini computers in our pockets and we can Google anything, it's no longer what we know. It's, um, how we apply what we know and the questions that we ask. It's not about having the answers because we can get the answers. It's about asking the right questions. And if you just kind of pivot your mindset to actually, you know, my. My focus today is going to be on asking the right questions rather than. My focus today is to show up and. And I'm expected to know everything. You know, being curious, that is, for me, one of the. The greatest, um, superpowers of the future is this voracious sense of curiosity. Um, and I love the word V. I don't. Have you heard of it before, Daniel?

Speaker B: I have not, no.

Speaker A: So, um, deja vu is when something, uh, unfamiliar feels familiar. Vuja day is inviting you to bring this sense of, um, unfamiliarity to something that is very, very familiar. So you might turn up every week to the same meeting or speak to the same team every day, but can you do it with this new sense of curiosity, rather than your neural networks becoming so ingrained in what you're doing and just being on autopilot, which is what they're trained to. And it's very great that we have that efficiency. Um, can we bring this sense of newness, of curiosity to work that we do every day?

Speaker B: Um, that's fantastic. That's great. How do you lead people to have that curiosity? I would imagine, uh, to the point that we were discussing before, the different generations, the younger generation, they're more open to change and excitement and being challenged and things like that. How do you bring people on this journey of curiosity, especially those that are maybe a bit resistant towards it or, or it's just. It's just, um, uh, unusual for them, or not unusual is probably not the right word, but a. Foreign to them.

Speaker A: Foreign. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And. And look, there's. There's no magic answer to this. It's. It's a. It's a constant challenge. And I think, you know, first of all, we have to recognize that we're dealing with lots of different types of people. Um, the reality is some people don't want to develop curiosity if they've never been a curious person their whole life. They just might not want to. They might just want to turn up at work, do their job, and go home, and that's fine. And we're kind of getting into the realm I can feel growth versus fixed mindsets. Um, we're teasing at the edge of that. And quite often people um, automatically assume, oh, we only want people with growth mindsets in our organization. We want to get rid of all the fixed mindsets people. And actually people with fixed mindsets can add tremendous value. For me the key is being able to recognize as a team leader as, as a, as a member of C suite, recognizing who are the people in my team. You know, you can still get an enormous, enormous value from, from people, um, even if they're not curious, but just understanding who you've got reflecting. You know, I say that um, a good therapist never tells individual, uh, patients, clients anything that they didn't really know before. They just get them to see the world in a different way, get them to see themselves in a. I think that's our job as, as leaders in the transformation space and as leaders of organizations is to almost be like a therapist for businesses. Like you're not, you're not telling them anything that they don't know about what they do because you know, they're the SMEs. But it's just getting them to see what they do in a different way by asking the right questions, those kind of things. So first of all I would say, you know, it's not a deal breaker if everybody is not curious, if everybody doesn't have curiosity, um, becoming aware of who does and who doesn't. Becoming aware of, um, the people in your team who have the big, biggest impact, the people in your organization, your team who have the biggest impact, um, the people who are the most negative and shining a light on those people, um, not in a, in a, in a horrible way, but actually inviting them in. You know, 10 years ago when I started out and um, I had my first role leading a global transformation program for global fmcg. Um, and they have ah, product development supply chain teams based in Australia, China, Czech, UK and usa. Um, and they'd grown very quickly through M and A, as most organizations that are here today have. Um, and the reality is the people in these different teams used to see each other as competitors because they worked for different organizations and their minds hadn't changed. They still saw each other as competitors. And my job, the kind of, the problem statement was we've got product development teams all over the world. They're not talking in the same, um, way, um, and not just language, English versus Chinese, but you know, different roles, different what's a priority project versus a strategic project. Um, and they're not Using the same systems, the same processes, the same tooling, the same methodology. And I said, look, I know nothing about product development. I didn't at the time. I do know a lot more now. Um, and I don't know anything specifically about the industry that you're in, but I can help you to change and I can facilitate that change. And, um, I learned through failure. I always say you learn far more through failure than you do through success. And that's suddenly been the case for my career. Um, I learned through trial and error that, you know, my immediate instinct was, um, at the beginning of my career to shy away from the people that would. That would be negative. Katie, you seem really nice, but, you know, we've had 10 of you in before, and the reality is you're just not. We're not going to change. You know, people have tried this a million times. We've had consultants, we've had firms, we've tried X, Y and Z. You seem lovely, but it's not going to happen them again. You know, now, today, what I do with. I used to run away from those people. Oh, please don't, don't. Let, Let me have to speak to Tim. Um, now, I, I invite those people in, you know, I, I shine a light on them. I, I really lean into that, um, and say, you know, that's fascinating. Please tell me more. Tell me, tell me why you think this won't work. Tell me what you think are the biggest blockers. And if I can, if, if you're in the situation to do, I would strongly recommend that you then actually invite those people to be part of the project team, whether in a, um, you know, whatever capacity it is as a champion or as an actual kind of, um, owner of a work stream or what have you. However your project is structured, but inviting them to be part of it, and inviting is key, rather than mandating. You don't want to. The last thing you want to do is phone up their boss and say, I need this person on my team. Because these people typically don't like being told what to do, but they do love to be invited to be part of things, you know, so, so actually really listening to those people because, because they have the knowledge, um, that can unlock all the reasons why you're going to fail.

Speaker B: Yeah. And huge amount of, um, opportunity there to leverage what they do know. So I think being able to create a culture or an environment where people do feel like they're important, their opinion is valued, um, where they're free to share instead of a culture where people aren't, aren't bringing stuff to the surface out of fear that, you know, they're not hitting certain measures or metrics or, you know, something isn't working how it should have been working or whatever it might be. Um, that could really squash that sort of culture of transformation and innovation, I'd imagine. Whereas being able to leverage these people, invite them in, bring them on that journey and then, then as changes do take place, I would imagine that, uh, the, the ownership there, you're so much further ahead when you've involved them in the journey than, than otherwise.

Speaker A: Yeah. So much more impactful and, and also to your point, even just giving people, you know, nine times out of ten these people just, um, their fear is that they won't be listened to, that they won't be heard. They just want to be listened to, you know, and, and sometimes we can't solve the problems. And sometimes, you know, it's like, actually do you know, you're right, that is a problem and that is a reason why, you know, we're going to come into some challenges and we're going not. But. And we're going to, to continue anyway and, and you know, and we can do X, Y and Z. You know, we can do these risk premortems and all of these things. But quite often I find suddenly if you, if you give people the opportunity to voice, tell me all the reasons why this won't work, you know, because change is scary. Um, and until we make it the norm to talk, you know, again, kind of, um, thinking about what this culture looks like, a truly kind of transformative culture, um, failure isn't something to be scared of. Failure is something that's embraced and it's celebrated and we learn from it. And it's about, you know, you try, you fail, you learn, you adapt. You try, you fail, you learn and you adapt. Most organizations are tripping over themselves at the starting block. They're not even trying to trying because they're scared of getting it wrong. Right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And so not only do we want to make it safe for people to try, fail, learn, adapt, we want to really expedite the speed at which that process happens. Because that's where transformation comes alive is, is the pace at which you as a team, not just individuals, but you and as a team. And to do that you need to, you need to form networks over hierarchies. So I'd say that's another kind of key attribute of a culture is that you have, you know, underneath your culture, you have high performing Teams or high impact teams where talking about failure is safe and celebrated and welcome. Um, and um, teams where. And underneath those teams you have individuals um, that have these personal behavioral attributes. M. And I'd say within those teams as well, not only is talking about failure something that they um, kind of uh, learn from and embrace, um, it's much more about creating networks rather than hierarchies. You know, kind of yesterday hierarchies was yesterday you being the single bottleneck at the top of an organizational structure. Yes, we still need organizational structures and I don't imagine they're going to go, go anywhere. Um, and nor should they. But it's really about creating teams that are networks over hierarchies. Um, and connecting those dots and, and um, I don't remember the name. There's a great sports psychologist called Jamil Qureshi and he always says that success is joining previously unjoined dots. That's the new definition of success is joining the dots. And that doesn't always have to be in one direction. It can be across the way, horizontal, vertical, in every which direction. But it's joining two previously unjoined dots.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are many examples out there of, of innovations that have come from these sorts of teams that you're describing here. Um, where it has come more from I guess more of a bottom up sort of approach in, in a sense in the way that this you know these um, organizations have created environments and cultures for people and individuals and teams to come up with various ideas and innovations. And, and I'm sure um, I only know of a handful of examples off the top of my head but I'm sure there's many ex examples like I think Google Maps is one where these huge mega global organizations with a wide range of products and some of the most popular products that we use on a day to day basis. Um, what start like came from a, an incubator team, individual within an organization that was given the freedom to innovate and to create. And that product then, then you know was, was prioritized and given, given the hands and feet required to make it flourish into what it is today. Um, and, and that's ah, you know some of these world sort of um, renowned products that we all use that they didn't come from the, the founder or the CEO, they came from the, the network of people within.

Speaker A: Totally. I think it was actually um. I didn't know it was Google Maps, but I knew that it was Google. Google itself won the race to being the world's uh, biggest search engine, um, back, you know, it must have been, and I'm going to get the date wrong. But whenever that was, um, you know, they weren't always the top of the race. We forget that there were other competitors out there. Um, and my understanding is, I read the story that Google, um, cracked the nut, um, because somebody senior had written up the problem that they were facing. The reason that they couldn't, um, unlock the search engine capability fully, they'd written down the problem statement and stuck it on the office, um, kitchen, kind of the canteen, one of the cupboard walls. Um, and just some kind of, um, very junior, um, I think it was a code developer, um, came into the kitchen, um, and saw that problem and just thought, okay, I'm going to have a crack at this. And then over the weekend managed to solve that problem. And that then led to a chain of events which enabled Google to be where it is today. So, yeah, exactly to your point. Creating that space where we, you know, we're not afraid to say, hey, guys, I've got a problem, I need help. You know?

Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker A: I so rarely see that. And especially the more senior you go. Because, you know, the more senior you go, the more people have this very, um, toxic, um, um, mindset that I have to know everything I cannot be seen to not know in front of my team and in front of my peers. You know, my job is to know everything. And it's toxic for the reason that it just, it's simply stops that individual, that team, that organization moving forward and unleashing their full potential. If we could just be a bit more vulnerable and have the safe space to do that and say, I need help, that would be great.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. And, um, one, one. Another example that comes to mind is, um, of creating an environment for sort of ideation, um, type work. And I love this one. And I think it can be applied across many different areas. But it's the whole Airbnb, um, story. And the founders, you know, they sat down with their team one day and I don't know how big the organization was, but they said to their team, guys, like, we need to, we need to make. We need to set ourselves apart from all of the other accommodation options out there, or what's, I guess, the traditional way that people would search and find accommodation. And so they went on this bit of an exercise where they, they started with, well, what's a five star experience? Let's talk for a moment about what we feel like. A five star Airbnb experience would Be like. And then. So everyone shared their ideas and they were jotting down all of the great ideas that coming to the table. And then once that was done, they said, let's talk about a six star experience. What would a six star experience be? So even though they feel like they exhausted all of the five star, they challenged, challenged the, the people in the room to let's take it up a notch. And they kept doing that until they got to like a 10 star experience where, and, and at this point it's, you know, it's, you know, getting to the levels of sort of unrealistic. I think, I think at 10 star experience, the story goes that you would land at an airport in your private jet and you would hop off and there'd be an elephant there for you to jump onto the back of and there'd be a parade through the main street leading you all the way to

Speaker A: your, I love it.

Speaker B: Leading your way all the way way to your accommodation. And Elon, Elon Musk is there to uh, with it with a rocket to take you to them. Like you know, just crazy. But, but I think what that exercise does is forces people to think outside the box. Because when you think, when you, when you start with the five star experience, you, you're probably, your thinking is still probably somewhat limited because you're thinking in the realms of what's realistic and what's

Speaker A: the reality of today day. Yeah, that's right, today. Yeah. And going back to what we said at the beginning around the change versus transformation, when you're stuck in that box, you're only ever going to do incremental changes because you cannot see anything else. You have to, to create that space, that safety, that psychological safety that, that team network to where you can actually sit down and dream big. You know, I always say to people, our jobs here is to imagine imagination, another very underrated skill in the workplace. We think imagination and play is just for kids. There are so many studies coming out on the value of imagination in your workforce. Um, and it's only when you can take yourself out of that, that box of change that you can lift your head up and get into that transformation space. I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know that about Airbnb.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, it's fascinating. And there's a full sort of 60 minute YouTube of that where he sort of breaks it down and walks, walks the uh, you know, the listeners through, which is quite fascinating. But Katie, I just want to thank you for sitting down, uh, with us today with myself today. Um, I'm sure that our ah, audience has gleaned a lot from this conversation. I certainly have. And uh, it's a very exciting topic or I find it very exciting at least. And I think it's something that a lot of organizations need to hear more about. And Obviously in a 30 minute conversation, we're not solving all of the world's problems in this episode. But if this uh, conversation can just spark the interest of at least one person out there, um, which I'm sure it will, um, to be able to um, explore this, this further and to ask more questions internally and if they're in a leadership position of some description, creating that, that open sort of transparent culture and environment to encourage ideas and people to sort of come to the table, then I think, um, we've done, uh, it's a good, it's a job well done. Um, but I just want to thank you for sitting down with me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Pleasure.

Speaker A: Thank you, Daniel. Pleasure's mine as well. Thank you.