A Grandfather of the PMP: Lee Lambert's Project Management Journey

Speaker A: A funny story. I tell people the first ever interview I did. Actually I've done, I did two interviews. One was with this co, uh, host that I use occasionally, Amanda. Uh, and then the other was my first actual interview and it was with Brooks Herman, you know, Brooks from the group. And we talked for 20 minutes and I never had the record button pressed.

Speaker B: Oh, God. Oh.

Speaker A: And I really, I looked down and, you know, it says start recording. And I'm like, starting.

Speaker B: Oh my God, I thought I already started. Oh, 20 minutes.

Speaker C: Welcome to the PM Mastery Podcast. This podcast is all about helping you master, uh, your project management skills by sharing tips, tricks, tools and training to get you to the next level while sharing the stories of other project managers on their journey in project management. And now here's your host, Walt Sparling.

Speaker A: So welcome everybody to the current edition of PM Mastery. And today I'm honored to have with me Lee Lambert. Welcome, Lee.

Speaker B: Hi. Uh, thank you. Glad to be here.

Speaker A: So I want to ask you a little bit about who you are and what you do. And some people are going to be like, well, it's Lee Lambert, we know who he is. Um, but to be honest, I was telling you earlier, I only, other than hearing your name, didn't really know a lot about you until about a year ago. And uh, I mean, I've been a pm, PMP for a while and I've been a PM for many years. So it's all about the circles you hang in.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's no doubt about that. I, I find people, uh, at the airports that don't know me unless they've been doing project management for a long time. Anything to do with the pmp. Uh, everybody knows me because I'm considered the grandfather of the PMP. I'm the only living founder left from 19, uh, 84. Uh, but otherwise I'm like you. I, I can be among strangers and they don't who see, I, I don't, you know, and people come up to me, want pictures and everybody else looking on, what the hell's that guy got going on? So special. He's getting pictures. So it's, uh, it's, it's fun. I like it. I enjoy it a lot.

Speaker A: So in 1984, that's when you got started with PMI in the PMP?

Speaker B: Uh, I've been in PMI since 78, so 40 some years. Uh, but in, uh, in 81, I moved here, uh, to Columbus, Ohio, uh, on a three year temporary assignment. That was 44 years ago, uh, and that was to start a new Division called the Project Management Division. So the fit was good because I'd been trained at General Electric. And so it was a good transition. So I came and I wasn't here more than a couple of months at bmi. Wrote a letter to the CEO and asked if they could have my time to help them set up this certification, uh, program. So that's how I ended up getting into. I mean, what's the Boston Sets. A Project Management division. Obviously, we want you to be involved. Uh, so in fact, uh, that's how it got started, uh, because I left that and started doing pmp, uh, both development and training once it went live, uh, training people on the PM M. So I, I haven't had, uh, an employee until just recently.

Speaker A: Very cool. And now. And we've interacted a few times on some interviews, uh, for a new, uh, credential that's out, which is the, uh, Pure Project Management. Pure Project Manager Credential through, uh, Pure Management Alliance. And you happen to be the ambassador for Pure so. And that's where I've gotten to know you more so than from in the past. So you want to tell us a little bit about the Pure Ambassador role?

Speaker B: Uh, I've told Joe, uh, uh, Phillips, uh, the creator of this program, uh, that I have the same level of excitement, enthusiasm as I did back when we were kicking off the pmp. Something new, something had never been done before. And so, um, a couple years ago, Joe asked me to join him in some teaching. And I passed on that because I'm kind of tired of teaching. Uh, but then this came up and it's. It. It just is. Is got me excited. Uh, his. His description of it's perfect. He, he says, you know, with the pmp, it's based on theory. You, you study books, you take classes, and you take a test. Joe's opinion was, and I shared it 100%, is that we really ought to be talking to people about how it really works. And when you're out there managing a project or. Or even managing a task within a project, how does all that stuff I learned the, uh, the jargon for how does that translate into better project management? So once he explained that to me, uh, and then the fact that he. I mean, he's doubled down on so many things. He, he said, you know, not, I don't want to have the same guy out there. I don't have the same face out there. So he divided this thing up and ends up with 29 virtual courses taught by a cadre of about 20 total instructors. I think, uh, but the chances that you're going to have one instructor more than twice is not there because there's just not that many instructors. And he covers every possible, uh, even he's even got a guy doing an environmental, uh, program on how to manage environmental projects. And so uh, we started out with that, looking at it and seeing, you know, how do we do this and do it effectively. So we've been spending the last three months, we rolled it out on February 3rd and uh, the last three months we've been doing what I call just uh, impression marketing. Just letting people know what it is, what the intention is. I haven't really been doing sales marketing per se, uh, and trying to get people to understand there's a real, there's a real good transition from pmp. I think it's a natural follow on. That's what Joe and I both agree that you know, what they should do is if they get their pmp, they immediately ought to get the pure uh, program as well. Because now it's going to transition all of that, uh, verbiage, if you will, into, into action. So it's going quite well. I've met all the instructors. Well, to tell you the truth, uh, I, I believe that to be able to market and represent it, I had to take it. So I took the 29 courses, uh, in about uh, three days. And, and so I've met, I've seen all the instructors. I haven't met them personally all of them, but I've seen all the instructors and uh, I gotta say they're darn good. They're really good. And all I told Joe is, I said it's a good test. But I can't think of one of the classes that I went through that I didn't pick something up that I didn't get, something that I didn't have before. So if I can say that with an honest uh, verbiage, uh, then people gotta believe me. I mean you look at this, a face you'd believe. What is it?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So uh, right now we're just, we're in the early stages, but I think once people uh, really see how valuable it is, uh, and what they do is take the 29 courses within a year's time frame. Uh, and uh, and then you have to take a test, 100 question exam, uh, and then you're given the, the pure uh, credential and uh, it's going to pick up strength. When we started the pmp, uh, it didn't, it didn't catch fire right away. The first year we had 39, uh, and at the end of 10 years we had 6,000. And then in 1996, IBM, AT&T, Motorola, all the big names in the US embraced the PMP as their certification methodology. And it's been hell since then. I mean, we now have 1.7 million. Yeah, so I, I can see, I can see, uh, if you can get the endorsement of major corporations like that, I can see that happening with fear as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, to your point, you have your pmp, you take the uh, pure credential and you get that real world. And it explains a lot of the theory that you've learned in how it is in practice. The courses to your point are very diverse. I mean, I've only been through a handful of them since, uh, since I was done. I actually taught one of them with Joe actually. But I've enjoyed thoroughly everyone that I've taken and I know a lot of the instructors I've actually had, I think out of the 20, I have had 12 of them on this podcast, some of them multiple times. So when I saw the group, when we all got together for the kickoff, I was like, oh, I know these people. Um, you know, there was a handful I didn't. And I've gotten to know some of them since. And it is, it's a solid group. Some pretty sharp people in there.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's some, I, I, I, uh, really enjoyed some of the classes that, that I learned a lot more than one thing. I learned a lot of things, uh, from people that been there, done that. I mean, I haven't, I haven't been on the platform since probably 1888, 1988, somewhere in there. So lots of stuff has happened since then. Uh, and uh, and even though we say PDUs help you keep up with the body knowledge evolution, most people, it's a numbers game. And so this is another thing that's a benefit for what Joe's doing is that he's given 60 PDUs, which is three years worth of uh, retaining your PMP, uh, as a, as a byproduct of taking the 29 courses. So it's a man, it's a really no lose situation. Yeah.

Speaker A: And the uh, between the cost, which is 399, which is very reasonable.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: You get 60 PDUs and you get the, you get the education that goes with it because you've taken 29 courses in a lot of it is going to be, uh, as we had mentioned, diverse. So you're Going to get into areas you may not ever encounter. And you may get into areas like. Well I was wondering what that was about and now, now I'm actually going through it. You may not have ever gone into some of those areas like uh, entrepreneurship and uh, uh, focus.

Speaker B: That was an interesting one too. That on startup. I, when I saw that what the hell is that going to do with startup? And, and, but she did a great job. She made, we made it a project management course.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I know some other people that are project managers and they specialize in that. So uh, it was interesting to see that being one of the courses, there's multiple on communication, there is risk couple that address risk, creativity. Love that one.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Hacking. Hacking, Hacking projects.

Speaker A: Yeah. Self care. Both of those are by Robert. Robert.

Speaker B: He, yeah, he's awesome. I love him. That's good. Well, you know, one of the other things I like about what uh, Joe's done is he's, he's allowed the uh, instructors to provide their contact information when they're done. So there's follow on opportunity. Mhm. So it's not like it's one and done. You got one and then if you got questions that pop up later, they, they come right out and say, well you know, you did one of the course. They come around and say if you, if you want to contact me, here's all my contact information. So I think that's good for the, for the instructors too. Keep them fresh.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great opportunity for community and networking.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker A: Now that you're doing the uh, the pure ambassador thing, I do notice you're still involved in PMI because you're, you're traveling quite a bit, going to different conferences.

Speaker B: Yeah, Let me, let me tell you a little bit about that. Just so you know, um, there was a time when I, I, I got paid money uh, to, to promote pmi, uh, which, I don't know why it happened but I took it. Uh, and then they realized uh, that I was getting paid and third level manager set it up and so they said we can't do that anymore. But you can still use our uh, website, you can still use uh, our uh, our signing up for classes. You can still, you can use everything but we just can't pay it. So I didn't matter to me. So I had been. About two and a half years ago I started, after my wife passed away, I started traveling and I was traveling 75 of the time, mostly international. And so I, I've continued to do that, uh, Joe and I talked about that. I said, you know, as long as I hold up my end, I've, uh, got commitments going out a year and a half that I'm gonna have to keep. And so I, I just, uh, People, I. When I present, people enjoy it for whatever reason. I, uh, put a humorous spin on almost everything I do. I got some great stories to tell. Uh, and so I'm. I'm getting calls all the time about doing it, and I'm not getting any revenue. Uh, and so this year, for the first time, I've been asking for a small honorarium, cover my travel and give me a small honorary, and I'll come anywhere in the world. I just got back from. From India. Uh, and, uh, and that's kind of the deal that we're doing. So I do it. I. Nobody believes this. I do it because I love what I do. Uh, I do it for free. In fact, I did it for two years free. Uh, and so I think it's something that, uh, to me, it's a. It's a way to stay young. I mean, I'm almost. Almost 80 years old, M. Uh, in August. Uh, and so I. To me, this is just like a therapy session every time I go to one of these.

Speaker A: Well, it's always. It's like you feel younger when you're doing something you enjoy.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So that makes me think of one other question that this, uh, has come up in conversation multiple times at other interviews is. Is about how you got into project management. And that most people, you know, when they're kids, they don't grow up and go, you know what? I want to be a project manager.

Speaker B: Right. That's for sure.

Speaker A: It's just they're in some other. They're in some industry or field, and somehow they get, you know, they're the SME. So they become a project manager, and boom, um, they're. They're created. And in some cases nowadays it is. It is more common to see formal education for project management.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, there definitely is. I was just talking to somebody on the phone today who's having trouble getting a job, even though he has a master's in project management from a major university. Yeah, did a little investigation. He watched his coming from India and nobody wants to sponsor his visa. Uh, so there, There's a lot of. There's even doctoral programs now for project management, which I don't relevance to that, but they're. They're. I, uh, mean, education is starting to grab it and PMI unfortunately dumped academia quite A few years ago. Uh, and. And I never could figure it out because to me, the academia is the pipeline to the future for project management. Uh, and now that. Now they've awakened with Pierre, they've awakened and they're getting. They're forming new alliances and new. So I think you're going to see more and more come out of that. But when I went to school, I'm from Utah, Provo, Utah. And I went to Utah Technical, which is now Utah Valley University. Uh, and I, I only stayed there one year, and I took it. It was called drafting. That was the name of the class. But there was a lot of math, a lot of geometry, a lot of that kind of stuff. I, I was terrible in high school. I mean, barely got out of high school, Got straight A's in college. And so, uh, after one year, um, I decided to get married. I married my. My high school sweetheart, uh, and took, uh, a job in Salt Lake City, uh, for Chicago Bridge and Iron. Uh, they were in Salt Lake. They didn't do bridges and never worked with iron. So I was kind of confused. In the beginning, uh, they made double wa. Storage tanks, double wall cryogenic storage. Okay, brain surgery. And so I did that for a year and I, I didn't like that. I was actually a drafting job. They call it an engineer design. It was a drafting job. And so I left that and went to the, uh, national laboratory in Livermore, uh, California. And, uh, and there I was put in as a, um, support system engineer for downhole testing of nuclear apparatus. So it was back when we were still doing testing. So, uh, so I did that for, uh, about a year and a half. And then I had children. And then I needed money, so I moved to ge to their test reactor where they did isotopes for the medical business. And I stayed with them for about two and a half years until I got fired. First time I ever got fired. Uh, for some reason, this guy thought that I shouldn't be doing community development work during hours. I don't remember why he was all confused about that. Uh, and so, so he asked me to leave. It wasn't really efficient. He just said, I think he should move on. So I moved down to Sunnyvale. Uh, and they had a big contract with the, with the, uh, breeder reactor, the Clinch river breeder reactor. Uh, and I, I didn't really want to continue to work on the board. So they had an opportunity come up where they needed someone to train 300 engineers how to use earned value. Uh, they had to have a certified validated earned value system in X amount of time. And they needed people to train. So I rose my hand, I volunteered, uh, and that's how I got my start in project management and, and training to be frank. Both of them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I did that for about 11 years for them. And then uh, I went to another research uh, laboratory up in Richmond, Washington. Um, Patel was running it for the doe and I caught my big break there. Uh, got department manager job. And then right behind that came uh, uh, you may remember this, uh, in the 80s, 70s and into the 80s, uh, we were trying to figure out where we're going to bury all this high level radioactive waste from nuclear reactors. Okay. So Battelle had that job. We had to test six geologic sites to determine which one's going to be best for long term storage of this waste. And uh, and I had the privilege of leading that. And it was uh, it was three or $400 million a year. Took us four years. Uh, we finally went through all the sites and we came up with uh, the basalt, uh, geology in Nevada. We figured politically it's going to be acceptable. I mean they've done that stuff out there forever. So we, we told doe, yes, here's all the proof. It's the basalt. So they went out on uh, on uh, ballot and it was turned down. And so that was in about 80. Well it was right after Jimmy Carter came in and he canceled the group reader. But then all this other stuff was going on in the 90s. Well we still don't have any place to store the radioactive waste and all the storage facilities are filled at the reactor. So they're actually having to shut down reactors now because they don't have a place to put the nuclear uh, waste. So that was my big break. Uh, I got to do things that you just don't get to do. Uh, as a young guy, I mean I was only in my 30s at the time and uh, and I got to talk to Indian tribes and I had to learn about fish that might die from. I mean it was unbelievable experience and it learned, I learned all the things that it takes to be an effective project manager by doing it. So I sort of had my own real world example. Uh, and uh, as far as I know they haven't found a solution yet. So they, I know they're, they're shutting reactors down. They're shutting. I've, I've read about three or four they shut down. Uh, and the price is going to go up on, on electricity, uh, power generation goes down. Nuclear is the Way to go. I mean eventually, someday we'll be there, but I, I'm not sure when I'll be alive for that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I wonder if they, if they actually can get these space, uh, flights safe or like, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, they're actually looking at that.

Speaker A: They can eject it and send it to the sun, you know, let it burn up.

Speaker B: They were afraid that uh, what they call casks that they put uh, these fuel rods in. They were afraid if it was in the ocean there'd be some deterioration and it would be escape the radioactivity. So they scrapped that and went to the different salt domes, basalt. Uh, nobody wanted it. That's a problem. Nobody wanted in their backyard. Oh yeah, we want nuclear reactors. Well, we'll put them here. No, not my yard.

Speaker A: That's like the power lines. We want power lines, but not, not in our yard.

Speaker B: Yeah, just anywhere but our yard. Yeah. So that, that's really uh, and the Patel, that largest contract research organization in the world. And so that got a lot of attention, a lot of. And I think that's why PMI asked me to participate in the pmp, is that I had a reputation and my field they gave, they kind of assigned fields to develop this thing. Mine was uh, consultancy and R D. So I had those two areas for, for developing the pmp. What are the things we got to make sure we cover, blah, blah. And uh, that, that's, that really started, that's in, in 1984 when I left Patel. Nobody knew who the hell I was. No, I mean, you know, might have been a few people, but uh, probably those that didn't like me anyway, uh, and so that gave me the opportunity. I, I owe my career to pmi, no doubt about that.

Speaker A: Well, that's an awesome story. And, and it is interesting how different ways people get into project.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, I, I agree. It's say. So somebody asked me that how do I, how do I, um, make sure that I, that's what I want to do. And I said well until you do it, you won't know.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: No matter what people tell you, till you do it, you won't know. And uh, I've tried to, I've tried to coach people in that way. I'm working with an Indian lady right now who has her PMP and still doesn't know what wants to be. So, so we're trying to get her straightened out. But I, I like the coaching part of it now. Uh, we had 350 people in India all, all PMPs and they came there for One reason have me hand them um, their certificate.

Speaker A: Oh wow.

Speaker B: That was it, that was the primary reason. Uh, and then, and then we, we literally caused LinkedIn to, to almost shut down. It, it was trending so heavily and it still is even today. I noticed there four or five more today. Uh, everybody that was in it, you know how it is with that LinkedIn, it's like a pyramid scheme.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It just keep multiplying as it goes down and so people just keep reposting uh, and reposting and reposting. So uh, that, that's how you get name recognition is, is uh, I, I post three or four times a day and I got 100,000 followers. So it's pretty easy to get a message out.

Speaker A: Yeah. With that kind of followers. I, I'm working on that myself. I know most of the people that are uh, you know, they're out doing social media posting. You know they're all, they all have a schedule and they get out. I, I post daily now on a quote of the day, something I just started recently.

Speaker B: That's good.

Speaker A: And then I post uh, but twice weekly on uh, actually pure stuff.

Speaker B: Oh, is that right? Yeah, I, I think that uh, I, I tell people, anybody you'll listen. If you're not on LinkedIn and actively using LinkedIn, then you've made a conscious decision. You don't want to have network of people that can plug you in if you need them.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's, it's an amazing thing that, that's another topic that ends up coming up a lot on interviews is uh, the networking aspect of LinkedIn, the people that you connect with. I mean I've learned so much from other project managers that I've met online. Some of them are, are just daily PMs, some of them are consultants, some of them are teachers. But there's always something out there you can learn.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's the beauty is you get through, through LinkedIn, you get a real cross section.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and uh, and I'm, I listen to what they say but I, I do uh, post some controversial stuff sometimes. But the, the where I get my most attention is like I'm on the bandwagon right now, uh, kind of criticizing uh, people in the profession that don't have their risk management sorted out. Uh, when you look at the pmp, the next V, the most valuable thing about the PMP in my view is risk management. And now we've got AI backing that up. It's a no brainer but yet look at the numbers. We got 100 we got 1.7 million PMPs. Next highest number is 70,000 CAPMs. So the baby, baby PMP. And then finally the agile stuff comes in. Uh, that no risk. I ever. Whenever I get somebody on that says risk, I congratulate them. I make a big deal out of it because I think we're missing the boat. Man, the more I learn about AI, the more I go like, man, if I, if I'd have had this back when I was doing this, uh, I'd be king of the hill by now. Because there's things you can do with that AI that will avoid risks beyond.

Speaker A: That's one of the things I've used it for is, uh, establishing potential, uh, risks. And I mean, you just have a brief conversation with it and then boom, comes up with a, with an entire list.

Speaker B: Like I tell people, all you have to do is take that prompt engineering class that, uh, PMI has. Because the key to that being a good tool is the right prompt. If you ask it the wrong question, you'll get the wrong answer.

Speaker A: Garbage in, garbage out.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a powerful thing.

Speaker A: That's another course that's in. The, uh, pure thing is, uh, AI.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Well, Lee, I greatly appreciate you coming on. This has been a fun conversation, and maybe we'll get together again. Or maybe I'll have you join one of our panels. Especially if we come up and start talking about risk.

Speaker B: Yeah, that'd be fun. I love panels. I hate them. At sessions, I tell people that organize, uh, symposium, don't do a bunch of panels. Nobody cares about them. You get a guy to Monopoly. We had a guy, uh, from, uh, one of the software companies in Riyadh last year, three people on the panel. Two of them finally just got him left. The guy wouldn't stop talking. Uh, and I think, I think panels get a bad rep. But if you got good panelists, it can be very entertaining.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I've done three LinkedIn live panel discussions, and they were all awesome. One was on communication, one was on entrepreneurship, uh, for PMs, you know, that are going out and doing their own thing with coaching.

Speaker B: Oh, that's good. That's a good one.

Speaker A: And, oh, now I can't think of what the third one was. But yeah, panels have been super popular because you get a lot of cool interaction in between.

Speaker B: That's right. We do, uh, we do a. Once a month John Signal, if you know that name, uh, from bank of America. We, uh, we do a, uh, a, a LinkedIn live with the top agilist I never can remember his name. And be, uh, for, uh, 30, 30 to 45 minutes every first Tuesday of the month. We've done three of them so far. They are getting really good response. And then we open up to questions the last 15 minutes or questions. Uh, and, uh, they've been outstanding. Really, really good. And this guy knows how to do LinkedIn live like you can't believe.

Speaker A: Yeah, those are cool.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thanks, Lee. And I'm sure we'll be interacting a lot more in. In the years to come.

Speaker B: Yeah, I look forward to it all. I really do. I mentioned to you before you. You got the same name as my dad.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. So I know I. I have a certain place in your heart.

Speaker B: You don't see that name much anymore. It's old, old school name.

Speaker A: Yeah, my dad's name was Walt, so.

Speaker B: Is that right?

Speaker A: Walter? My name is Walter officially, but I go by Walt.

Speaker B: All right, my friend, it's been fun talking to you. Looking forward to next time we get a chance to hang out.

Speaker A: All right, I appreciate it. Same here. And for everyone else, we'll see you in the next episode of PM Mastery.

Speaker C: Thanks for listening to the PM Mastery podcast at ah, www.pm-masterry.com. be sure to subscribe in your podcast until next time. Keep working on your craft.