Alen Sultanic On The Future Of Marketing And How To Stay Ahead | EP280

Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Perfectly Mentored. I'm your host, Jason Portnoy and on this episode I got Alan Sultanik. Look, if you're a marketer, you probably know who he is and if you don't, you're probably in his Facebook group without really knowing who he is. He is a legend in the space. He's been around for years and years and has been behind some of the top marketers on the planet. And quite frankly, a mysterious man in this space because he does not do a lot of these sit down interviews. So I'm lucky to have him, lucky to call him a friend, got to dig deep around in his brain and normally the only people who get to do that are his high paying clients. So you're not going to want to miss this episode. Check it out.

Speaker B: Alan.

Speaker A: Uh, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me. So again, no one knows.

Speaker A: No one knows. We're starting. We're going fresh here. We're going fresh here. Welcome back to the people who really know. But just it's only the two of us that know that.

Speaker B: I think we should talk about the backstory. So I, uh, I did this podcast already with, with Jason. My, I, you know, I didn't get good sleep so brain was like half working. It was really, really good. The content was amazing, but the presentation wasn't good.

Speaker A: So I asked Jason never will never be released.

Speaker B: Do uh, you mind if you do

Speaker A: it again up and sell it for like 2:97 one time on front end offer, but that's about it.

Speaker B: Well, you know what's crazy, right? Like I do these calls like, you know, for Fast4nvidia and all these things and it's like sometimes, you know, not all the time. I come like, literally like no sleep, you know, it's like terrible sleep. And I show up and, and some uh, those are some of the best calls because the brain is just kind of like turned off. It can't like, you know, it can't censor it, can't like filter it. Just all the good stuff comes out. So sometimes those calls are really good. But you know, it's like one of those like dive bars, you know, it has amazing food but the presentation isn't there.

Speaker A: So I, I find coaching calls do that to you. Like I could be in a, uh, in like a, I don't know, tired mode. But when I get on it, because it's not one of the things you could prepare for. You don't know the question. Then every question is a different problem that Requires your brain to think in a different way or part or use part of a brain that you have been using that week. So I, I think coaching calls are like one of the most energizing. I'm spent after it but, but I feel like from an energy standpoint, I, but it's great.

Speaker B: How long are your calls? How long do you go for?

Speaker A: Um, anywhere from like, I mean two to three hours in there.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're marathon runners. Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean I try to ask brain smoking Afterwards, two people show up to the call, then it's gonna be a quick call and I'm okay with that. But yeah, yeah, let's jump in. Look, I, I talked about your bio a little bit, but let's um, uh, let's. How'd you become like I, first of all, I want to say the face of a, of a online marketing community, but I think most people have no clue who you are. You're like the wizard, like the wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtains, yet the most talked about person. If you go on Facebook and you're part of marketing communities, you're one of the most talked about people. Uh, off. Was that intentional for you to become like a little bit faceless and not be like so front facing with videos and Alex Hermosi style front facing videos. Um, um, and just your tweets, your, your, your, your really well thought out tweets and, and like just a, a voice behind a faceless brand, I guess. And then how'd you build, how'd you become that guy who, who like I, I guess, I mean last time I saw a community like this, and I'm not gonna say your community is like this at all, cause I don't wanna offend you, but it was like the clickfunnels community, active m marketers and people always talking and always trying to share advice and always trying to do it. Like how'd that all happen? A lot of questions.

Speaker B: Um, was it intentional? Um, partly, partly not. I mean I, I, I'm very intuitive, um, with what I do and that comes from like just, you know, that unconscious confidence type of stuff and so in which I like, you know, like all my posts, everything I do, I mean honestly, that's like you know, in the morning with coffee. Right? Um, so it's like I wake up, I have a routine, have a cup of coffee, just like bang one out, you know, whatever's in the mind. I don't really prepare much but, but how did I become that? I guess I understand how the game works on a Deeper level than anybody else. And, um, with that, it's like, it's hard, you know, it's hard to kind of compete with me because I can move around anybody or anything. And I will talk about that today. Cause, you know, one of the things I do value is sharing what I know and, you know, what works. But I think it all comes down to just, you know, the market will test you, right? So if you put out stuff, you know, you'll have people who go, who, who do it, you know, they'll put money behind what you say, and, you know, it works. And then they get more money back. And so, like last year I did that. Like, I, I created a double promo technique for Black Friday. And, uh, you know, that thing made like a shit ton of money, man. Like, I honestly, I haven't tracked it, but I want to say in the hundreds of millions based on, like, what people are reporting, right? So that did really well. Um, did one this year too, for the book of call funnels. And then, of course, people reuse that double promo technique and just like, break records and so stuff like that. As far as being the face of marketing, whatever. I don't really like attention. So, like, I have people ask me to be on podcasts. I mean, you, you know, no offense, but you. You've been asking me for like four or five months now, right? So. And partly I'm very busy, but also partly I don't like attention, um, because I'm not a extrovert. I'm more of a. Like, I, I get my fill of people real quick, you know, and then I'm like, I gotta go recharge, be in my head. Um, um. But I think it comes from just authentic love of marketing. And, and, and it's, it's special, you know, it's magic. It's like, man, where else can you just, like, you know, put some words together, make a video, a little presentation or a webpage, you know, throw it out in the Internet and have strangers just give you money? You know, it's. It's. It's amazing, right? It's amazing. And it's funny because, like, I got into this long time ago, and when I found it, it was like, man, it's like I knew, like this, this was my. This was my game. Like, I knew, right? And it was our secret for a long time. And then now, um, the whole world wants to do it, you know, So I guess that's.

Speaker A: I think what's, what's different also is you talked about the love of sharing um, love of sharing what works. I think we're inundated with so many people sharing what used to work and packing that up as an offer for people. And I think there's refreshing, there's a refreshing take on. I'm actually trying this right now. This is actually working. I just gave this advice to somebody on a call and they just implemented it and did it and not. This is the trick we used seven months ago and now I'm packaging a whole course around it. I'm going to sell it to you for, you know, 2997. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, there is a lot of that happening for sure. I mean we can, we'll talk like in the last podcast we did that didn't, didn't go published. We talk about, you know, the, the current status of um, where the market is, how it works and all these things.

Speaker A: So let's, let's talk about it. I mean we're, we're filming this right now. It's December 2024 is about to end. Talk to me what, what the advertising and marketing world looks like in 2025.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, so, um, there's these things. There are like much deeper concepts, you know, that I operate by, um, that let me like navigate the world and marketing or whatnot and uh, you know, win. And you have to understand how it works and what's going on and who's playing the game and you know, who the players are or whatnot. And so you know, when it comes to offers, um, a lot of people are like ah, you know, in the well Dynamics, you know, profile for those that don't know, there's a personality ah, test you can take called well, dynamics.com and I personally found it very useful and everybody else I shared it with found it very useful.

Speaker A: What are you?

Speaker B: I'm a creator, mechanic, star.

Speaker A: I think I'm a star. I don't know what my other secondary.

Speaker B: Well, that's why you're doing a podcast. You're the star. Makes sense.

Speaker A: So then people are gonna think, I don't know anything, I just like to

Speaker B: be in front of a camera. But yeah, so, but you know, in, in the sense like you know, copywriters or whatnot, they tend to become uh, their more creative side. You know, it's, it's an expression thing. And then mechanics are obviously like people who publish offers and stuff like that. They're more mechanical and think uh, of it as like creative is like, you know, blank piece of paper you're creating that's your canvas and you're Creating something from nothing. Mechanics tend to be more of an assemblers, like, you know, putting pieces together or whatnot. And so the thing is, in the game, mechanics like, tend to kind of like wobble early on, but they find their footing and then take off. Because ultimately, like, when you start to, you know, make a certain amount of money, you're just repeating the process. It's, you know, it's process efficiencies, right? And so they tend to do, they tend to do well. And um, the thing is though, about mechanics, um, like the lower profile is like the extreme version of the mechanic. So those guys love to delegate, you know. So with, with the mechanics, they tend to, um, produce a lot. So they find what works and just do it over and over and over and over and over again, right? They just, they just kind of maximize it. And so creatives, they get really bored with just doing the same thing, but mechanics don't. They just kind of like get up and know, do the same thing and they get on with their day. And so when it comes to business, a lot of, uh, stuff is, you know, process efficiencies. And so you have to, um, get really good at doing the same thing every day and you have to be okay with it, right? So if you're a creative, mastering that element helps a lot. And so what happens is when mechanics find they can make money, they're very pragmatic about it, right? So they just do the same thing over and over and over again. Their solution to every problem is one of mathematical nature, you know, and what I mean by mathematical nature is that it's like, you know, if, if something works, do more of it, and then if that works, do more of it, and if that works, do more of it. And if it doesn't work, uh, then do more of it, and if it stops working, do more of it, and if it works less, just do more of it, that same thing over and over again, right? So, you know, back in the day when we were doing a lot of clickbank launches around in 2010, before that, the, uh, marketplace was a lot of creatives. And then mechanics came in and uh, you know, they're like mechanics like to basically discover something and drive it once the creatives have, um, established it. So for example, like, if you look at like artsy areas, you know, of every city, like the creatives and artists, you know, make it beautiful and then the mechanics build apartments and stuff around and drive it, right? And then of course they drive the costs up. So, same analogy. And so what happens with These mechanical types is. Is on clickbank days, it was like, you know, we used to do a launch. Two. One or two launches. You make a few million bucks and you're fine. And then they were like, they would do it too. And they were like, well, what if we did like, twice the launches? And it was like, okay. So instead of doing, like, launch every six months, you know, twice a year, they would do one every three months. And then it was like, other mechanics were, like, gonna go do that too. Then it was like every two months, then every month. And. And now, like, you know, that scene is pretty much gone, but it still lives on in, like, uh, you know, Warrior plus or JVZoo. And so if you go into those ecosystems, you'll see, like, launches happening literally every day. Like three to five launches every day, right? And so the same thing happens with a lot of these guys out there. You know, for example, they find content works, right? So they just put out, like, shit, shit ton of content, right? So, you know, like, videos, like, so they're like, okay, you know, shorts, you know, on TikTok and YouTube work. Let me just go pump them out. And then they'll build these little teams around them, you know, to, like, you know, somebody will script them, somebody will, uh, you know, produce them, somebody will put the pretty pictures and, you know, on them or whatever. And then somebody will upload them and they create this, like, machine, and it just pumps, right? And so what. What's happening now in marketing in 2025 is that these mechanics are basically, uh, pushing forward, like, insane amounts of, uh, whatever they're doing in every type of category, right? So with the content mechanics, you notice how certain people will just come out and, like, create a million pieces of content that you can't. You know, you go on TikTok, they're there. You go on YouTube, they're there. You go on. On Twitter or X, they're there. You go, um, on Facebook, you know, they're there. They're just everywhere, right? This omnipresence. And what happens is, um, other mechanics see these guys doing it and they're like, oh, well, I guess that's what works because mechanics tend to copy each other, right? So we're gonna go do it too. And so then they go and do the same thing, and then do the same thing and do the same thing. And so this is, you know, everywhere. Like, you know, E. Com. Every single launch model in the industry has failed because of this. You know, historically speaking, because launch model is like, you know, you get people to Promote your product to their list. And then like, the list has only so many buyers and you just drain the list and it doesn't work. So these mechanics, push, push, push, push, push. And, and ultimately what happens is it's, it's a mathematical problem. And so the only solution, they think that it's, you know, one of more stuff. And then same thing. Like, you'll see these guys on, um. It's funny, right? TikTok and YouTube, like, they literally like, will fake that Joe Rogan said, you know, with a red, red drapes, you know, seen that. Like, they just look and they're talking to. They look like they're interviewed by Joe, but they're not.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So there's that and there's these guys just popping out. They're just kind of like, who is this person? Why is he like, just everywhere? I have no idea who this guy is. What he did. The. He just, he's here for, you know, he's just there, just shows up everywhere. And you know, one of the first people to, to really, um, drive this model is Gary. Gary Vaynerchuk, right? I mean, so he was like, you know, create a piece of content, slice it, you know, LinkedIn. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Everywhere, right?

Speaker A: You're your own media company, so you're not. Yeah, yeah, well, that's the model, right? That's model. Like every business should be a media company.

Speaker B: Yeah. So what happens is, uh, these guys that push the model, right? And so they have the mathematical thing. And so most people looking outside in, they want to compete with them. They're like, well, I gotta go do as much as they do. As much as they do. As much as they do. Right. But they don't realize that these guys are burning the audience, right? So one of the things you look for is like, you can look at the number, uh, of followers people have, and then you look at the engagement ratios, right? So the engagement ratio for some of these bigger guys is like 0.02%, right? So that means that like.02% of the people actually want to like, you know, lift a finger and click like, you know, or like move a.

Speaker A: They bought 90% of their followers.

Speaker B: Yeah, there is that too, for sure. But they, they still get good views, right? So the bots don't lie. The bots can't. I mean, you can't. You can, but it's, it's harder to fake views consistently than it's just to buy followers. So some of them get, get views, but the engagement is. The ratio is Very slow, right? And so what happens with these mechanics is that ultimately, you know, um, in marketing, differentiation is, is like, you know, the heart of the game. You always have to be different, do something different, do something different, do something different. And they just do more of the same. And then you kind of run out of things, uh, to say and you kind of become redundant. And then some of them go sideways, go like crazy mode, and then some of them go like, you know, go over here, which is like more hardcore. But they tend to kind of like end up being pretty extreme. They kind of have to constantly increase the intensity, um, of their content, you know, and so in that int. Increased intensity of the content, they become pretty extreme. And then most of the audience, um, doesn't want to respond to this intensity, um, of the content. And the way the intensity of the content is increased is through black and white thinking, you know, so it's like, um, either this or that, right? It's, it's this, it's this black and white thinking nature of things. Like you have to, for example, you know, work non stop to succeed. You have to do this, you have to do this, you know, you have to do this, you know, you have to go make a trillion dollars. You have to do this. Like, you know, if you don't have, you know, 17 supercars, then it's like, you know, you know, whatever, right? So this content extreme goes up, right? And what happens in this mechanical race, so to say about the mathematical problems? Um, few of them win, right? And so some of them do extremely well, right? And like, you know, you gotta, you know, I have opinions about different people, but I always respect the numbers, you know, their numbers, Numbers are impressive, right? But then the rest of them don't do well because what happens is the audience begins to tune stuff out and then that's when we have these market, um, awareness levels, right? So these guys drive this market awareness level. And then you have a, the next step, which is basically something like, you know, one of these like YouTube guys that have like these like, you know, things where they're like, you know, looking, you know, is this a scam, is this not a scam or whatever. And then they pop up on those channels and the more of those channels now coming up as well, like, um, some are factual, a lot of them are not factual. They're just, you know, saying stuff. And so that's what happens, right? And so in 2024, what happened is like few years ago, as you know, um, Tim Cook, you know, woke up one day and like you know, this privacy thing is kind of important. So he made a, you know, he made a meeting, you know, and he basically broke the algorithms of the Internet, which made it really difficult to, to match, um, to. To retain recency. Right. So when you can't retain recency, um, you know, if somebody's like a buyer now, right. Like getting them, um, they're not gonna the same mind state like a week or two later. Right. And so the recency got um, screwed up. And so obviously like um, marketing, the easy days are gone. Right. And so, so what happens is, um, with, with Tim changing the um, the algorithms, basically everything changed. And so this.

Speaker A: My question is, but did it really change? Here's my take, my, my take on it. I'm curious to hear what you think is. I think we had an easy button for a long time. Mhm. And I think um, any monkey, uh, was running ads, especially during COVID Let's talk about COVID time. Right. Any monkey could have run ads and got like a 5x return. Like it was, it wasn't hard. Mhm. You saw people selling masks like drop shipping masks and making millions of dollars. I think the people who understood I look, I have an agency and we do media buying. I never thought I was the most talented media buyer in terms of strategy manual bidding this and this. I think my edge was I always understood marketing as a whole. I think you gave. If you, if you showed the greats, the David Ogilvies, the Schwartz's, um, the Hopkins, you show them what's powerful today and then listen to what people are actually complaining about. About how like the problems of the platform. Oh, you can't retarget people who are on my, uh, you know who did. They would laugh.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: They would laugh and they would still be probably the richest people on the planet. Ah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. One can argue that there's. It's also a different time. Like it's. It's a different time. Like it was a different time.

Speaker A: But they understood how to. Marketing principles and psychology and, and, and how to sell. I think one of the things that made you so great at what you do is, is there's never a um. Oh, by the way, here's what you do. Go on Facebook, increase the bid by 400%. Uh, put a cost cap of this, this and this. That's none of your posts. No, sorry. You know how to talk to the people who are ready to uh, at the different. You want to talk about Schwartz's five levels, whatever it is, you want to talk to those People in those levels. Here's what you say, here's what you do. You're talking to men and women. You have to talk differently. Here's what you do.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That, that, that transcends algorithm changes.

Speaker B: Yes. So, but what happened? Um, let's get, let's get back on this thing because I want to finish this thought as well.

Speaker A: You're like, I don't really care about.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no, I, I do care. I do care. It, it, it ties in. No, it is important. Um, it, it is. I'll tie it in. Um, I do appreciate you saying that. So with the algorithm changes, it's like a lot of these things basically, um, made it more, you know, difficult for these guys to, um, you know, just run ads, whatever. So now they're pushing organic like crazy. Like they're trying to hit everything, right? Because that's what mechanics do. They just hit everything, right? So what happens with, with mechanics now that we have a mathematical problem, like another. More isn't the solution, right? Because ultimately what that is, it's a quantity play, right? It's a quantity play. And you know, to what you said, it's like going back to the COVID days, whatever, right? Of like, you know, that like so many people. And you know, I'm really grateful because the market grew, right? Which is fantastic. So everybody wins when the market grows, right? Yep. Uh, but, but ultimately, like, if you looked at companies that peaked in those times, it was like, let's just do more, let's do more, let's do more. Right? So, so it's a quant. And so you asked me, you know, what did I do to come out? And you know, just out of nowhere, it's like I knew I've been doing this, you know, for over 20 years, so I know how these cycles work and I've seen all. And this is just one cycle of, of many that takes place. And once you know them all, it's easy to just kind of figure out where you are, right? And so I just focused on quality. That's it. Right? And so that's one of the things. It's like, you know, when I do a podcast, it's deep. It's awesome, right? I'm not, you know, you don't see me doing a million shorts, you know, whatever. When I make a post, it's like, you know, like I, I, I did a post the other day, um, it was quite long, you know, about the guide to raising prices. You know, a lot of people using that now, so it's like, it's. It's about the quantity, right? Quantity. And so when it comes down to it, like, if you look at, um, anything that grows, right, Be it a human being, a tree, even like a car that moves, there's always an element of consumption in it. Like it has to be consumed, right? So, for example, like, you consume food in, or, you know, you have children, they consume food in order to grow your car. You know, you have an electric car, it consumes electricity. If you have gas, it consumes gas. Um, to move forward. So anything that needs to moves forward has to consume something, right? And so where in 2025, where we're going is basically it's going to be competing on consumption, meaning how do you get people to consume? It's no longer just like throwing a bunch of shit in front of everybody and just, you know, overloading the audience. And so with differentiation, you know, what I personally do is like, I don't put out much stuff. You know, I'm not really in the public. I don't care for it. Um, never did. And the only reason I actually even came out and, uh, started sharing what I know is because I tried, um, through partners and stuff for years. And it's just we made a bunch of money, but never really made an impact. And I was like, okay, you know, I want to make an impact. And I couldn't do it through other people. I had to do it. So it's all about the quality. And then ultimately then with the quality and people consume, and then the more they consume, then you can begin to change them. Because unless somebody consumes, whatever you put out, like, goes into the mind. And I call it rearranging furniture. Like, you know, like changing stuff in the mind, like how they feel, what they see. We can talk about that too. Then you have nothing, right? And so it's akin to, like, you know, I don't know if you ever, like, um, gone to like one of these, um, touristy towns, right, that has like a ton of billboards and stuff. It's like, you see them, but they're meaningless. And that's where Internet is right now. There's so much stuff, but it's meaning. So there's this. For most people who are unaware, they look at the game and go, holy shit. You know, for me to compete, I have to go put out this. I gotta put out 50, you know, thousand things. I gotta. No, no, no, you don't have to. Right? And so for me, it's like, we're in the, you know, I know what's happening now? So I'm like, okay, the math is eating itself. So the math, the solution to mathematical problem is never a mathematical answer. It's one, a psychology, psychological answer. And of course we can, you know, my philosophy is to compete on economics. And so it's a lot of this stuff to getting people to consume, deeply consume, um, and then changing what goes on in the mind. Right. And so if you look at, like you said, you know, if you, if you look at ads, you know, all these things, they're just vehicles for us to get. Like all an ad is really is just, you know, a vehicle to get in front of somebody so you can, so they can consume something and get in the mind. And then really the magic of the game comes in. Okay, how do you get people to consume stuff? And that's, that's what I'm the best in the world.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, so that's what I was just going to ask because the way you just described it seems like, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, it seems like this long tail approach. Right. Uh, but most entrepreneurs, right or wrong, live in this, in this direct response, need and answer. Now High Roast is tracking, uh, where's my, where's my conversion? Where's my sale?

Speaker B: Where, where's.

Speaker A: When it comes to changing the mind of a buyer and changing belief systems and, and kind of like infecting the mind, that's a long tail approach that a lot of maybe entrepreneurs don't have the stomach waited out the skills to wait it out, the money to wait it out.

Speaker B: I, I mean it's not, it depends on.

Speaker A: So how do you do it? Let's get tactical for a second. Like, like you're the best in the world at it. How, um, how, how, how do the people listening start implementing?

Speaker B: Sure. I mean, I can't get into all of it. Obviously. It'd be like a 40 day podcast. Um, so there's ways you can do it that are very fast. There are ways you can do it, they're very slow. But you can change beliefs instantly. Um, but you have to know what beliefs are in the first place in order to change them. Right. So when it comes to marketing, there's a lot of people out there, you know, that, that throw the B word around, you know, beliefs, beliefs, beliefs. But I haven't seen anybody ever, uh, really understand what they are, you know. And so when it comes to um, the human, human brain, there's really four motivating traits that we have. And this is, this is this is the, one of my cornerstones of what I teach and share in fast forward and HP plus um, never m shared this publicly. So. So it's good, it's good. Thank you for asking. And so the first trait is survival. Obviously all human beings want to survive, you know, because if we don't, then what's the point? The second trait is reproduction because, you know, we want to reproduce, right? So this is where a lot of the root desires come from. You know, so there's this pull we have, right, the reproductive nature. And so if we reproduce then, um, our genes survive. There's a fantastic book, um, everybody listening should read called the Selfish Gene. It's very good. Um, and then the next level is of safety and security. And then you have status. And so that's where the two genders, you know, diverge. And so women respond to safety and security, men respond to status. And so once you understand this, then from here we can layer everything else on top of them, right? And so the thing is, um, knowing this, that survival, reproduction, safety and security and status, all of this can be boiled down to keeping you safe. Obviously survival, you know, we know what that is. Uh, reproduction, self explanatory, safety and security, obviously self explanatory. And then status is, um, the more status we have, the safer we are, right? From other things. And also that allows humans to reproduce. So status is an indicator of reproductive desirability. Now when you look at this as a, ah, there's these four core motivating traits that humans have. Then we can say, okay, all belief systems revolve around these four. And so therefore a belief system is nothing more than a safety system, right? It's a safety system. It's there to keep you safe. So that's why all beliefs are good beliefs. It doesn't matter if they're perceived to be bad or whatnot, right? And so it's a safety system. And then when, you know, for example, when, uh, in, in NHP plus and Festival, I did like four or five calls on just selling to women, right? And uh, we've, we had one guy from Germany literally make more in a month than he did the entire year just off of those calls. But a lot of those calls are based on the safety security principle, you know, and like how to sell to women. And then when it comes to selling to men, it's a lot of status, you know, so if you look at Lamborghini ads, Ferrari ads, you know, watch, you know, luxury watch ads, Rolex, Patek, whatever, ap, there's a Lot of status there. You know, if you look at women, even their pricing, um, inflection points are based on safety and security. You know, the emotional weight of money changes. So therefore a belief is a safety system. So, for example, like, if you're running ads, right? And you want instant response if you have anything negative. Like. So I've tested this. I actually made a post in the NHP group about this. If you talk, if you look at it, basically you type in like, you. If you type in the word you. And anything negative, negative, that's like negative association with the identity, right? And so the safety system gets triggered. It's like, no, I don't want it. So I literally tested ads which was like, um, a negative personalization versus positive personalization and negative personal. It's always like way lower clicks, way lower engagement, huge bounce rates and stuff like that, right? So what I do is like, if you look at my Facebook wall where I post daily, um, there's a lot of externalizing the negative instead of personalizing. So I'll be like, most do negative, others do negative. I'll never say you negative.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And whenever I say you negative, engagement goes down. Right? So. So that's one of the ways you get.

Speaker A: Is that because no one wants to associate or believe that about themselves. It's the same way like in weight loss, if you're like, uh, you're fat. Like, no one wants to click on a post that makes them feel like they have to admit that they're fat, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, there's that thing called negative admittance, for sure. So one of the biggest things, like with weight loss offers, and I've discovered this because we were running a dating offer and getting, um, guys to admit they have a problem with dating basically goes back to that. Those four motivating traits, which goes back to, um, if. If a guy buys a dating offer, he is by default admitting that he doesn't have status or he's not. The reproduction elements now gets violated. So he has to admit.

Speaker A: I heard Evan Pagan talk about that when he was like, doing his, like, um, what was it like? The double your dating. That's why you came up with double your dating. Because it wasn't like, you could be at 0 and double and move to like 21 or whatever. But if you're like, how to get m. How to get more dates. You have to admit that you're not getting any dates. But if you talk about double, whether you had a hundred, now you want 200, whether you're at one and you won now you fit.

Speaker B: Mhm. Mhm. That's a very good point. Yeah, he's a phenomenal marketer. Amazing mind. Amazing mind in the game. Um, and, but yeah, like so the negative admittance, right? And so anytime you have anything negative associated, they tend to bounce out, right? So one of the instantaneous ways you can do it is look at this right now, when it comes to um, every single market, every single thing can backtrack over to this, right? This thing. And so for example, with Bizop, you know, safety and security is one of the big ones, right? So in Bizop, you know, uh, that most people are gonna play with biz op at one point or another, right? But most people have this thing in biz op where they think like, you know, the, the big hook, right? The big hook is like quit your job, right? That's the big one. It's like just quit your job. It's great. Just quit your job. We'll do this, right? Well, using this principle, what I found was you can't tell em to quit their job because that's scary, right? That violates safety and security. Um, and so for example, let's say, you know, you have a family, you have kids and you know, let's say let's pretend you have a job, you don't have a business, you know, it's a nice nine to five, you have good income and you see an ad and goes, hey Jason, you gotta quit your job to do this. Now people process information from an authority when it comes from an authority or an ad, like very much like linearly. It's not like they don't think much, they don't question it. So it's not like, well, do I have to quit my job? Whatever you say, right? So if you say quit your job, have freedom and travel, so now what happens is they're basically thinking that they have to quit their job in order to do this. Kills, kills response, kills response rates. So all you have to do is flip it around and say you can keep your job and do it on part time. And then when the income increases, exceeds, then you can replace your income. Replace your income. Then you can be free like that. The safety arc, right? And then because of safety and security element in these four motivating traits, then what happens is, you know, um, too much change is also uh, a blowout, right? So for example, if you have a diet or something, you know, and especially to women, they're very sensitive to too, too much change too fast. You can't just go like that. With some guys you can, but most of them you can't. Right. And so ultimately has to be always positioned as a doable transition into whatever you're doing.

Speaker A: Lose weight, but keep eating what you want. Like those.

Speaker B: Yeah, you can't, you can't up. Yeah. You can't upheaval their whole world. You can't be like, you know, you, you gotta, you know, you can't eat anything. You have to go work out, you know, seven days a week. You know, you have to go run three miles a day. You have to, you know, be in bed by nine. You can't have a beer ever. You know, you can't do too much change. Right? Because ultimately safety and security is too much change. So there's these principles where like, you know, again, this is just one of ton of them. But it's like in these cycles, right? And so when it comes to for example, going back that mathematical, um, things. So when you combine that and then you go to the consumption, right, the consumption side, because it's all about consumption. How do you get people to consume? Well, the reason people consume is because of these four elements. They're deep in the psyche that are needed. And so everything that I teach and do is built around this, this thing. It revolves around this thing. And we just extrapolate into, into many, many different areas, you know. And so for example, um, with the uh, you know, with the survival, reproduction, safety and security status, um, you know, ultimately what would increase all those is always gaining something. And what would decrease it is giving something. And so everything is always positioned as a gain. So that, you know, the energy balance in the mind is always like, you know, in the favor of the customer.

Speaker A: So let's talk about that messaging. Because um, you know, I, I think it's, it's a, I mean, easy for everyone listening to understand that m Messaging plays a huge role in any business or advertising success. So how do you strike that balance? I guess there because there is a balance between um, being persuasive and being authentic, uh, in your copy. Right. Like you can be persuasive, but there's also some. Or do you think authenticity is just a buzzword that gets used, that gets um, thrown around. But I think what makes you good is, is that I feel like there's specific techniques you have for connecting with audiences on emotional beliefs. I know you touched part of that, the safety and the, and the uh, and the different motivators. But how do you use that persuasiveness and that authenticity? So it doesn't Feel like manipulation, I guess.

Speaker B: Yeah. So the way I discern it, that between the two, it's a good question, is that the persuasion side, there's uh, a desired outcome. Like you want something from somebody, right? You want something from somebody. And in, in copy. When you're doing messaging in ads and emails, you can see this or a post, right? Starts off good. It's great. You're like reading. You're like, man, this is awesome. And you get down to the end and it's like. And click here to buy something and you go, fuck, man, you just ruined a good thing, you know? So that's it, right? Um, um. Authenticity is just doing it and not wanting something back. It's like you're putting out to the world. So if you look at what I do is I, it's, it's never. None of my posts, I've never sold anything to my email list. There's never me ever asking anybody.

Speaker A: You sprinkle it in, right? Like when you talk about nh, NHB and fast forward, you're not talking about it like, uh, you're kind of like, like, let's be honest, right? You're a marketer and you talk about it. And what that does is when you're reading it and you're like, well, I just taught this person in HB and he just did it, made $40 million. Well, guess what? The next thing someone's going to do is they're going to go check out nhb. So.

Speaker B: Except you can't find it because it's like, again, there's no, like, I don't have any public. You know, you don't have a, you

Speaker A: don't have a link. You also have a. That will, that will, that will throw out anything you, you have. Uh, if someone asks, how do I get NHB, there's 70 people that are over.

Speaker B: I never do. Well, yes, but that's, that's the thing though. It's like I'm not writing anything with the intent of like.

Speaker A: And I'm not. And I'm not trying to, to uh, big on you. But like there, there obviously is an element of your selling when you, when you, when you talk about those things.

Speaker B: It's not direct selling. It's. I call it pull marketing. Right. There's a difference between push and pull marketing. Push marketing is, you know, they get down the thing, you know, you, you throw them in the mats, you're trying to wrest. Know what is it worth it? You know, that type of thing. I don't do that. I Did it for years. And what I find is, like, if you have to, you know, wrestle with them in. If you have to wrestle with them in the end, then it's like, um, you know, it's like, it's. It's like you haven't done a good job up front. You have, you know, you don't know why. What they want, why they want and stuff like that, you know. So, um, for me, I switched to pull marketing, and it works a lot better, you know, and ultimately also, because the way people buy and we can talk about that is very different. You know, some people buy instantly, some people need a little more or whatever, and they feel good when it comes to buying. You know, the big thing, a lot of what we do in sell, though, is, um, we sell an abstract. We sell something that's intangible, something they can't touch, taste, feel. Most of the time, they can only see it in their imagination. And so, you know, all those elements really help stimulate the imagination and the feeling, you know, and so we have to give them time and space. And so when you're, you know, you get them, you're wrestling with them. And the thing is, most people think, like, you know, you'll see these guys, you know, that have email lists or followers, and they're putting stuff out and they're, you know, asking them to give them, um, money all the time, and they're wrestling, I call it wrestling with them to give them money. Well, what happens is, like, they only want to wrestle so many times. They get, they, they. They know that, like, anything you post, there's a certain level of, um, you know, deceptive intent, like you want something from them. The only reason you're. You're putting stuff out is this, to get something back.

Speaker A: So do you. You disagree with, like, Dan Kennedy, who thinks, like, his rules for, for marketing is that every. Everything should have an offer.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, I respect Dan a lot. You know, he. He's one of the OGs of the game. Um, and I respect what he did. The thing, though, is, like, we're operating in environments that are very different than a lot of that stuff was created, you know, and, and so, you know, in his time, you had to do a lot of direct mail, which all had a cost, you know, and so you had to always get something back. Right? Get something back. But now we have, you know, we have so many outlets and channels where it's relatively very cheap to do that. And so it's like, you don't really need to. Right. Because ultimately the Way people buy, you know, there's uh, three ways people buy, right? There's the, the people that buy instantly, you know, and so typically about 5 to 10% of the population meets that criteria, right? This is one of those other things. How do you know to answer you, how do you, how do you do the psychology now? So they give you money now versus later, right? This is so about 5, 10, only 5 to 10% of the people buy now. They're instant buyers, right? And um, you know, this is why a typical BSL will convert it like, you know, 1 and 3% because of instant buyers. You know, they just, you know, if you look at the automatic clients model, you know, you'll get like 8 to 15%. You can push it, but then that's also like, you know, algorithm targeting or whatever. So about 10, 5 to 10% of instant buyers, right? And then you got people who are, repeat, right? They need to see it multiple, multiple times. Um, and then you got people who just need to be with you for a while. They, it takes them, you know, three months, six months, 12 months. And we're all like that in different categories, right? So for example, um, some people, when it comes to, you know, cars, they're like, I need to, for me, like, so, you know, when I buy a car, I gotta test drive it three times. Has to feel, right. Some like my buddy, he, he, he sits in the thing, done one, one, he didn't have to see it, you know. And so, but what happens in direct response? We treat everybody as if they're instant buyer, you know. And so if somebody needs, you know, multiple times, like say, for example, he needs to see something three to 10 times. They need different perspectives. They don't really quite see it, they can't experience it. And so they need that experience. And so what happens, most of these guys, you know, they're like, well, let's just wrestle with them and beat them up in the email or whatever. Because they should be buying instantly, right? And that turns them off real quickly because you're not giving them, you're not respecting their psyche. And what it needs, what their minds need goes back to the four things you're violating. They don't feel safe making quick decisions, right? So you're violating that, um, the thought. And then the people, they need duration. The duration people are mostly trust people, right? So that's. They need you to, they need to trust you. And so how do you build trust? It's like over time, right? Over time. And they're looking not for, if you're trustworthy. The way they measure trustworthiness is that are you going to change? And so for example, we all have seen people that come, you know, next, you know this, now they're doing low ticket, now they're doing webinars, they're high ticket, they're doing this, they're doing, they jump around. Right.

Speaker A: Or they're selling, now they're selling ChatGPT Pro.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So people go well how can I trust this person? Right. And so those people are very cautious. They're the time buyers. And so for example with like NHB plus and Pro and fast, uh forward, whatever, we have like three levels now. It's like when people come in, we have people literally like we had a guy join, uh, fast forward today. It was like boom, boom, sign up quick. And then we have people that you know, been, been around for like a year and they finally pull the trigger. Then we have people then, you know, been around for a certain amount of time. So. But it's interesting too. Like it's like in email marketing, this is kind of the essence of email marketing then being if you, if you have to um, market to somebody beyond day 30, they don't really know what's important to them. Right. That's a whole different thing. But yeah, that's, that's really important how people buy. So like retargeting ultimately is like the repeat people, um, and then the duration people.

Speaker A: You know, let's talk about. I mean I think um, one of the things that I like about how you think and how you do things is you're, you're very big with mental models and simplicity.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So for, for the entrepreneurs listening, I think, I think they, they try to over complicate things and make things a little bit too difficult. So how can entrepreneurs, I guess my question to you is how can entrepreneurs make um, simplify their business without losing effectiveness and better utilize mental models?

Speaker B: What do you mean simplify how? Simplify what ways?

Speaker A: I mean I think uh, a lot of people when they put an offer out, they overcomplicate it, they fancy it up, they dress it up and they don't know how to just simplify certain aspects of their messaging of their business. And I think one of the ways you do it really well, uh, is using that mental model approach and kind of building those mental models out.

Speaker B: Yeah, anything where you have to use a lot of force, you have to question why are you using force in the first place? And the only reason you're using force in the first place is because Something, um, is pushing back against it, you know. And so my mental model is there's two tools, schools of thought when it comes to marketing, right? Like one school of thought is like somebody comes in a sales page or a BSL or webinar or whatever, right? Ad, ah, doesn't matter. And the assumption is they don't want it. And so what we have to do is we have to like, you know, force them to want it. Right? That's the typical thing. And so in that mental model, what ends up happening is people tend to, um, overload the page with stuff. And it's like, you know, you've, you've seen some of these pages, like a lot of stuff, you know, like they just keep adding stuff to it. Adding stuff. They adds it more. It's gonna, you know, better. Um, I'm one of my, my view is opposite. So to me it's like somebody doesn't show up somewhere if they don't want it, so they want it a hundred percent. And then my question becomes, what is taking away those points from them not moving forward? You know, what's taken away from the, from the points? Like what's causing friction, like what's not there that's causing them to. So for example, like earlier example in biz op, uh, quit your job. That's one thing that causes them not to move forward. Let's take that out. Increase the conversion rate. And so we keep taking away. And of course, typically the last thing will be the price, right? Because, you know, trade offs and so there's price justifications and all that fun stuff. Right? But that's how, that's, that's the way to look at it. So it's like, what's in the way? That's, that's m. Because remember, beliefs are safety systems. So what's the threat to this safety system?

Speaker A: Great. And I love that you made that point. So what's the heuristics? I guess if someone's listening to this because they're too close, right? They obviously wrote the page. They're very close to it. What's the heuristics you have when going through something being like, okay, uh, here could be an objection. This could be an objection. This could be an objection. Because when you're writing it, you obviously think you're handling everything and you want to handle every objection possible so that they go ahead and buy. But. And when you look at a page, you're like, oh, I think I wrote this really well. How do you go through it from an objective lens? And be like, all right, I could remove this. This should impact conversion. Oh, this would be a reason why they don't.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. So all objections, um, in any sales process have causes, right? Something is generating it. They're just not there for any reason. And so we have to figure out what's, what's causing it. Um, and to ask what's causing it, we have to ask ourselves, where are they coming from? But also when are they coming from? Um, and so, you know, um, I have a number of mental models. Um, one of the bigger ones is the thought of competing on economics. And so, um, you know, if you look at the copywriting nature of direct response, which is wonderful, there's a lot of great copywriters. They're, they all focus on conversions, right? Like, can we increase conversions? Can we increase conversions? Well, the conversion has to be attached to a number. And so for example, you know, if you have a, if you have an offer that converts at $1, sorry, 1% at $100, you know, is the same thing as 10% at $10, right? So it's like, it's kind of like really not, not that useful because you can increase conversions just adjusting the price. And so you can also increase conversions with psychology and stuff like that. But then it's like, where does that psychology come from? So we, we talked in the beginning of the podcast where the game in 2025 is like people, um, using mathematical solutions for mathematical problems. And you can't use the same thing. It's not gonna, it just makes it worse, right? So we have to use psychology. Um, and like a lot of the psychology that I use comes from competing economics, which is basically nothing more than a fancy way of saying, looking at how people make trade offs, right? And the reason people have to make trade offs is because they are limited in resources. So it's economics. The definition of economics is the study of allocation of resources. Limited resources, right? And so all resources are limited. Um, so for example, time is limited, money is limited, energy is limited. Um, I'll give you an example. So back in, uh, 2010 or something, like we were doing a lot of biz op offers and like I was, I was crushing it with VSLs, you know, and so I had this epiphany one day. I, I was driving, I saw this, you know, this guy cutting the grass, whatever, and I was like, I was like, it's interesting, right? Like this guy works nine to five, whatever, you know, has to be with his family after work and run errands and then on Weekends he has to cut the grass. You know, when is he going to have the time to learn this and do this, right? And so everything that we started doing with VSLs was, um, economizing the element of limited time, right? And you only need 20 minutes. They only need this, you can do it in the evening, you can do it this, and you could do it in lunchtime. That moved the needle a lot, right? So, so to look at the objections, we have to look at what are they asked to trade off? So when you look at the VSL webinar, um, TSL doesn't matter any market. What are they asked to trade off, right? So are they, what, how much time do they have to trade off? How much money do they have to trade off? What identity do they have to trade? How will their, um. And we can talk about this. Like, how will their identity be different if they go start biz op, right? So, for example, like, I know a lot of the biz op has a bit of a. You have to legitimize it, right, in order for them to. Because they have to tell their family a story. So, like, if you have one of these things, like make money with Amazon, make money with Etsy, whatever, they're superstructure. So obviously that helps. But also what helps is like, their comfort, um, in being able to tell their friends and family the story of their doing. So they're like, hey, you know, I am gonna sell stuff on Amazon, I'm gonna sell stuff on Etsy. And the friends of him go, oh, that's cool. You know, we shop on Amazon, Etsy. That's great. Versus, you know, you go, I'm gonna go promote this, you know, affiliate email drops. And that sounds like a scam, you know, are you a scammer now? And it's like, so that fights it, right? So goes back to the four, you know, the four core drivers, right? Which is like safety and security. Because now you're in reproduction. Because if your social tribe, you know, looks at you badly, your ability to reproduce and survive goes down. And so that affects you negatively. So, um, yeah, looking, looking at what they have to trade off is, is really important, right? So we got the money, time, energy, identity. What do they have to not believe anymore, right? There are some beliefs that are like, structural, such as, like religion and God and stuff like that that you can't really touch. There's also like, you know, certain, certain things like identity, like, you shouldn't really mess with, like, unless you know how to change it.

Speaker A: No, no, no, Give up God and make millions of dollars. Right. None of those offers.

Speaker B: Now, I will say, whoever is listening, like, if you're religiously inclined, uh, the Christian market is one of the. The best markets you can be in and very underserved. So I always tell people that they should go into that market. It's a very, very good market. Yeah, so we had some offers in that market, huh? I can talk about that if you guys want.

Speaker A: But many people pump out coaching for Christian businesses.

Speaker B: Well, one of the best offers you can do is, like, I'll tell you, um, what we did. And you remember that Gary Halbert Club Arms letter. Remember that sounds familiar. So, you know, I have so much respect for Gary, Dan Kennedy, Jay Abraham, you know, all these guys, like, you know, they're like, I always like my mission, right, With NHB and everything we're doing with the platform, everything is to make sure that they're never forgotten. Right? So one of the things I want to do when we do big events is like, I want to have in the honor of, like, I want to have events like in the honor of, you know, Gary Halbert in the honor of, like, just really pay respect to these guys. So Gary, um, you know, I don't know if you guys know the story, but it's like, Gary, you know, he had to go to the Library of Congress, like, because, you know, direct response got forgotten. Like, and I don't know if you know the history of direct response. Um, if you want, I can go into it, but, you know, Johnny Kennedy came down and basically went to this huge agency and said, you know, these guys have been, like, trying to figure out what advertising is.

Speaker A: Oh, that's the one where this is the. In the lobby, right? He did all.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The letter. Yeah. He basically said salesmanship in print. Yeah. So he went there, and then, like, that took off. And then, like, whatever, you know, they. They crushed it. They did amazingly well and all these things. And then, um, a guy named Rossa Reeves, by the way, like, if you guys, um, there's a book called Reality and Advertising by Rossa Reeves. He was the guy that, uh, made TV ads work. So it's like he was the. In the 50s. Um, he was the YouTube guy, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. So Ross Reeves, you know, he has a book called Reality and Advertising. And, like, he was the switch over for tv. And then after they switched to TV and radio, like, people really forgot, you know, what Direct Response is. So Gary had to go to the Library of Congress, you know, get these old books, you know, like, the, the Robert Collier letter book, you know, Claude Hopkins, all these things to, to bring back the magic. And so, you know, he tried for many years to make it work. And in some cases, you know, that it was like, you know, either you're going to send this mail or the electricity going to be off, right? So he sent the mail. He did this coat, uh, of arms letter, and it was basically like a family crest letter. And like, it just blew up, right? It did. Well, and I, I believe, could be wrong, by the way. You can, you can, you can, you can double check this. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Um, I think that's where Dan Kennedy got it started. He worked for the Halberd Company or something like that in Ohio, won that letter. Right? So, um, so anyway, like, Gary did this letter and he blew up. And like, I always ask myself, you know, like, the, the, the biggest thing when it comes to making money online is like, how big is a universe? Like, like, how many people can give me money, right? Because the more people can give me money, the more mistakes you can make and then the more scale you have, right? So, you know, you look at, you know, Gary Halbert, what he did, and he did it by last name. So for example, if your last name was Smith, it's like there, you know, I made a Smith coat of arms letter or whatever, right? And everybody has a last name. So what's, uh, what else does everybody have? Well, they have a religion. They have a religion, right? People religion. So some years ago what we did was, uh, we started running this offer called a free Pocket Bible offer, right? Where we, and you know, you can go literally on Dollar Tree and get a pocket Bible for a dollar or whatever, right? You can, you can give these things, you know, forever. And so you go, um, you get a pocket Bible and then you give them for free. They pay, shipping and handling. And it's like, I think the pocket bop was like a dollar and like you charge like 3, 4 bucks for shipping and handling. So it's essentially like free plus shipping offer. So it, it works. Huge convergence. And then you put them into the backend. And uh. And so I'm not really religious, by the way. So we built a fantastic offer without like, it was me, um, and uh, two other guys. And like, uh, I built the offer, ran it, and yeah, we, uh, one of the guys had a huge survival business. So he, he was trying to like, bringing a lot of, you know, a lot of the trinkets and stuff like that. But like, really what was missing from that offer when we did it was, um. You need somebody of faith, like somebody that. That's really, like, you know, charismatic, that. That has, like. That likes to get on and talk, whatever. And so what you can do is you can just do this, uh, free pocket Bible offers and, um, put them out there. And then you can, you know, you can put them into some type of a, uh, program, whatever, you know, et cetera, and go from there. And what's interesting is that you can do like, a free pocket Bible for, you know, Christian entrepreneurs. You can do freak pocket Bible for Christian moms, and then you can segment based on that level of intent. Right? Yeah. And it's a fantastic market. Untapped market, great market. And then, um, some years ago too, we. Me and a guy had an office down in Atlanta. The. The printer we had was, um. Right. Like a street down. Like, we went down to the printer for all the stuff, and we walked in and there was like, books, like, floor to ceiling, like, like. Like. And court, like, what is this stuff? And he's like, oh, yeah, that's all the Christian authors. It's a huge market. Huge market. Yeah.

Speaker A: Anyway, one of our clients sells Christian, uh, Christian clothing.

Speaker B: And it's fantastic. It's a beautiful market. I love it. I think. I think more people should do it. Like, I'm not religious, but I. I'm very supportive of religion because I think, uh. I think it does a lot of good in the world. Right.

Speaker A: Y.

Speaker B: And so. Yeah, so. So that offer converts really well. The. The. I will put the nuance is you really have to be. And I've shared this offer with others and, uh. But they weren't particularly like, you really have to be in it for the cause, not just the money, by the way, for it to work. If you're just in it for the money, it's. It's not gonna work. You have to. You have to be in it for the cause, right? So converts insanely well. Um, you can get a free. Free pocket. And there's like a site called Bibles by the case that used to, like, cases of Bible. So anyway, um. But, yeah, so back on track here. Um, and so, um, objections, right? Objections come from these, like, you know, managements of these scarce resources. And so what are you managing? What identity are you messing with? Um, and then, of course, you look at gender and age, right? And so the way women buy very different than the way men buy. And the way women process resources, um, is a lot more delicate than men. And then older folks, um, Also selling to them is, is, is very different than selling to younger folks and like how the, the way the, the brain encodes the speed of encoding and processing and everything changes as you get older. Right? Um, um, so that's one. And then, um, there was. Oh yeah. And then the pricing models too, of course. That, that's really, that, that's a, that's a big one. Because if you look at like, um, you know, you got the minimum pricing models and the minimum pricing model is basically like 1% of their monthly income. And the way you can compute that if you Google, if you go to Google and you type in average, um, Social Security payment and then 1% of that will always mirror uh, Netflix price, Spotify price, Amazon prime price or whatnot. So I call those infinite recurring models. So if you look at the programs that have um, the most subscribers in the world, like Spotify, Netflix, whatever, right. Amazon prime, they all have one thing in common which is a tremendous value, of course. But you look at the value, but then you look at the price and the price is always 1%, the average Social Security payment. And that basically lets them cover the entire population, you see. And so the people stay forever in those programs. And so when you look at objections, price being objection. Then that's how you do it. So they use that model to remove the objection of price across the board. That's uh, pretty interesting.

Speaker A: That's pretty cool. Never thought of it. Um, tactical and we'll start wrapping up. But when you're writing an offer that resonates and you're looking at all these things and putting it together, um, uh, I guess what's the process for kind of identifying and going through the core desires that people have? Like do you have any tools that you use or any frameworks that you use to kind of uncover the hidden wants or, or the, or the real wants of people?

Speaker B: I do. Um, but I can't talk about it here, so, but I'll tease. So in direct response. It's often said that you can't create desire, you actually can. Uh, and so I can create desire in a person through, through language and it's very powerful. But I, I, it's something I've shared in NHB plus and Fast Forwards. Like I gotta keep those guys. Give the, keep those guys the advantage.

Speaker A: See, so this goes back to like the email, give the value. But I'm not selling.

Speaker B: No, but that's true. No, that's true though.

Speaker A: But if you want access to those, that thing.

Speaker B: Yes, I mean it's true though. Like I could, you know, it's like, you know, even this, like the Ford core driver, that's like part of the, a lot of the stuff, you know, I got to keep those guys, you know, like, you know, they gotta have an advantage, right? That's what they're in there for. So I can't just be like, hey, here's the whole thing. But when it comes to, you know, I think really understanding people is, is key. Like, you know who they are. And ultimately it's like if you look, if you really start focusing on the concept of competing economics, you can see what people really, what they have to trade off and what prevents them. You know. But as far as desire goes, you know, all desires can go back get. You know, there's layers, of course, but they can backtrack, um, to those four elements, the survival, reproduction, safety, security, and status. You know, you're always moving one of those needles.

Speaker A: Then I'll ask you this because you have, you have a popular free group. You have a group where people pay and they stay. Um, you build communities like NHB and Fast Forward, um, that kind of thrive and retain members. Even though you don't actively sell. You just throw hidden little things. Like if you're watching and you're a marketer, you get it and that's why it's funny. But if you're not a marketer, you're like, yeah, he's really not selling anything. Um, uh, what are the secrets, I guess to building a community where people feel connected and want to stay engaged long term?

Speaker B: Damn, man. I have it. I have a whole thing. I'm actually going to do a call for a Fast Forward soon and a for. I can't share that one. So that's another one. I actually have a whole like pile now.

Speaker A: We're not even selling NHP now we're selling the higher level one.

Speaker B: We're not selling it. But I, I, I do, I do have it. I do have it. Like there is actually like a very specific process of like deep.

Speaker A: Want to tease it Here, let me

Speaker B: see, Let me see if I can, let me see my notes. If I can actually pull anything out that doesn't. Because even those guys didn't get that yet. So like, that's, that's not a to do list. Let me, uh.

Speaker A: So you can clearly see I'm asking good questions. Cause I'm pulling.

Speaker B: You are. You're asking very good questions. Tough ones.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But good ones. Um, let's see. Um, yeah, there's like a quadrant, um, you know And I, I can give you half, half the quadrant, the other half I can't, if that works. But, um, you know, I have this whole process, right? Like once you understand the process, it becomes very easy. So for example, like, I, um, I, uh, you know, this week I spent, um, you know, we're launching an industry platform. Obviously, you know, everybody knows that. So it's like, for those that don't know, it's like we basically built a, a social network and like YouTube, Twitter, all in one for entrepreneurs. And it's free, right? So it's, it's like a home for marketers who. We spent a, uh, good two years building it. It's done. And then this, this, this week, you know, we have to go get the page done. And there was a certain structure in the page of how, how we, we did it. And it follows this model and there's like four aspects, but the two aspects of the four are basically, you know, do people join for a resource or do people join for the experience? Right? And so when it comes to um, a resource and people come and they're basically like, what resources do you have? They can, you know, it goes back to that whole, um, so the reason people come in is because they look at the world through that whole, you know, everybody's doing math, whatever, and intuitively they know that how do you get people to consume content? And not just content, like copy and everything, right? So it goes into, um, what resources do you have for me to move forward, right? Because I can't move forward. And so then you look at those resources and then you layer it over with the trade offs, right? So it's like, what don't I have? What do I have to trade off to, to, to move forward, right? Time, et cetera. So for example, I'm, um, low on time. What do I need? What resources do you have for me to move forward faster, right? And so in, in some examples, people will be like AI tools, right? Or whatever that lets them move forward, right? So that's a resource. And then for the experience is like, how is it gonna feel to be part of this? Right? And the, and the whole, how it feels to be part of it. It's like, who else is there, what's going on, you know, et cetera. So there's a quadrant, um, and like those are the bottom two, the top two I can't go into because I would get, you know, let the whole cat out the back. But it's the experience. So like one of the things like resource and experience, uh, Model. And so people look at each like the reason you have that uh, is because people view each other as resource or experience. Right? So if you look at the way humans connect, um, ultimately you have a community and people connect. Right? People connect and they, whatever in every type of thing. Uh, it's, it's ultimately there's only two, two ways people connect. Okay. And the only two ways that people connect is um, either for a resource or for an experience. Right? And so if you look at um, when two people are dating, if you have one person look at the other person as a resource and then the other person looks at them as an experience, you have a mismatch. If you look at, if they both look at each other as a resource, then you have persuasion, um, manipulation, that thing we talked about earlier to take place. Because I, uh, want, I want this resource. I want it becomes very transactional, right? And then when the people, the way they relate is through an experience is like through doing activities together, growing together, going to the same place together, et cetera, that helps. So like if you, you know, the way I look at m, you know how people relate and connect. There's other two, of course, but these two are basically like, do people look at each other as resources or do people look at each other's as an experience? And so it'll always lean on one or the other more. So what happens though is like if you have, if you just become a resource, then um, the relationship is very transactional. Like I give you this, you give me that. There's this math that's being kept in the mind when it's a experience. Uh, it's a lot more an emotional flow. Right? And so typically what'll happen is you get them in with the resource and then you, you switch over to the experience, right? Because, because experience requires a little more uh, customer intimacy. You can't just go up right over, you know, et cetera. And so if you look at a lot of the ads running in our space, it's a lot of resource based ads, not experience, very few. Experience based like challenge funnels.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That's an experience, right? That's an experience. A lot of template offers, that's a resource. So webinars experience, um, most low ticket offers resource you see. And so that's one of the ways you slice through it.

Speaker A: All right, let's end with this one. Um, we kind of talked about what 2025 looks like. But what are the trends or shifts that you see happening that will have the biggest impact on businesses in the

Speaker B: next few weeks, next five years.

Speaker A: And then I guess, how could we prepare for it as well?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Actually share this. I'm not selling again, by the way. I did share this. I'm sharing again. I did a call earlier, Energy plus, um, some months ago. Um, I called that the next five years because I really, you know, I give those guys, like, a lot of everything. Pretty much like, it's called nothing, all bags, like, so I want them to win. So if you look at evolution of, um, systems, countries, cities, um, Internet thoughts, everything, right? It all begins pretty much in chaos, right? So if you look at, um, you know, if you look at, uh, if you go back to the wild, wild west, right? Of America, right? You watch cowboy movies, right? What is it? It's just kind of like, you know, free for all, no law, no order, right? It's just like, you know, you can do whatever you want. Um, you know, people shoot each other, people rob each other, no consequences whatever, right? And, um, then what happens is, like, people start working. People realize they have to cooperate and work to collaborate. They have to work together. And if they don't work together, the safety, security, survival and status gets, you know, especially as the survival and reproduction goes. If people don't work together, um, survival and, um, reproduction and safety and security goes down a lot. So in Wildfire, they started working together and they basically formed little towns. And then, you know, you have people come in, rob banks, and, you know, the sheriffs would get them or whatnot. And then you, you know, we grew into cities and countries and states and everything is wonderful, right? Good life. Same thing happens on the Internet. And so if you look at crypto, for example, when it first came out, it's, you know, pure wild, wild West. Everybody's screwing everybody, scamming, stealing, cheating, right? Okay. And then you have the exchanges rules. And then, you know, some exchanges obviously went rogue, et cetera. So with marketing, the same thing happens. It's like it used to be, uh, wild, wild west. And then whenever there's a new thing emerging, there's this. It emerges out of. Into just this explosion of chaos. So, AI, for example, when it came out years ago, whatever, first, like year ago. So, like, chaos, um, right. And now it's a lot more orderly. You get people building tools or whatever. And so this market basically evolves, the evolution of the marketplace in the next five years, Basically, it's going from chaos to order and structure. And so, you know, a lot of people in this game are freelancers, right? And so the nature of a freelancer is one to kind um, of be free, right? To do whatever they want, however they want, et cetera. Not, not to be part of any system, but basically be to work with systems. Now what I told the guys in HP plus is like what I'm seeing is that if you look at an engine, right, like engine, if you look at a uh, old Ford, you know, the old Fords from like a hundred years ago, they're in a huge engine, like 80 horsepower. If you look at a Porsche 911 Turbo and just a small engine, like 800 horsepower. And so why. It's because it's organized efficiency. So companies and people and teams, they can organize all in the same vision, task, whatever. That's why it's called organization will be able to extract more energy and resources out of the, out of the market, which means they'll have more money to compete on economics to overcome, you know, through paid ads and everything. And so if you are a freelancer, I would either align yourself with companies that are well organized, you know, in structure and pay attention to like the pockets of the market where there's chaos, organization because everything become. And so if you can create something that's, or that's organized, focused, et cetera, you'll always make a lot more money. And so where that space is going, um, is typically this organization. And then at the end point of the organization you always have one or two massive uh, companies that tend to acquire everybody else. So for example with the car industry, um, you ended up with GM and um, Ford. You know, in Germany you had BMW and Mercedes, um, you have Samsung, ah and Apple. You know, you had Google and Yahoo. You um, have Facebook now in X, um, and you have Instagram and Twitter. And Now I mean TikTok. You have Instagram and TikTok. Yeah. And so these are. That, that, that, that's the evolution of all business, right? It's all organization or whatnot. So um, it's not really, I don't look at it from a perspective like, you know, oh, it's, you know, webinars are going to work better. These are all tools of communication because unless you can communicate, you can't convert. And so using that stuff I shared before, we can get pretty good at communication, right? We can master that. But it's more like the structural. I uh, look at the structure of the market. What's the structure changing? Because the structure really affects us. And for example, if you don't know this as a freelancer, you might like and I'm going to go with Freelancer for the next five years. And everybody's organized into these little teams and pockets and focusing and stuff like that. And next thing you know, you're like, left behind. And so the freelancers like that I mentor and you know, the guys, the CMOs, CROs, copywriters, and all those people, um, the ones that do really well can work with companies that are well organized. They can just be part of a team, They're a team player, they can work with others. The ones that can't, they just want to do their own thing, kind of come in randomly, do a project, make money. Those are the people that are always like, looking for clients, right? Because. Because most of the people who can work and be part of organized structures, um, they have a. They don't have a client problem. They have a I have too many people to work problem. And so the reason is because those organized things can extract more energy out of the market. And therefore what they can do is they can pay more and have more people give people what they want, which is stability, which goes back to safety and security from the beginning of the call. So everything I do and think, it all connects into this, like, model, these models and they all work once you understand them. And so again, not selling. But that's what I teach the guys in S plus and Fast Forward. And like, it's funny because people will come in, they'll watch like a bunch of stuff and they're like, I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it. And then, then everybody has the same epiphany, goes, holy shit, it clicked. I see the matrix, I see how it all works. And then afterwards they're just like crushing it. And like all sorts of markets.

Speaker A: That wasn't selling either.

Speaker B: That wasn't selling, but it's pretty good. You got it, by the way.

Speaker A: That's what a good. Hey, hey. This is the best selling. Because that is incredibly.

Speaker B: Can I share, Can I share something with you?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: I have a. I have a guy in fast forward, um, can't mention his name because I don't want to get him in trouble. But he's in sales, right? He's in sales. So he gets invited to go to speak at this huge event and they can't pitch. They can't pitch, right? And so he's like, how do I pitch these guys? I want to make some money, right? So I come up with this whole pitch for him, right? And so I'm like, you go on stage and the first thing you say, all right, guys. Now, out of respect for these guys, you know, I can't sell you. I can't. I can't. I'm not going to sell you. I can't tell you. I'm not going to tell you about my programs. Or what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna tell you what. I work with people who pay me. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like, I had this whole structure. He said it. Like, I. I did the whole thing. It was like. It's like the invisible pitch, right? I came up with the whole thing. So he goes to this event, he does the opening intro. Like, I. I gave him. I have it somewhere saved. I can send it to you. And, uh, yeah, so he does his thing. Dude, he's in the back. They're all coming to him. Pay him a bunch of money. I'm like. He's like, that's what it's like. And it's like. It's funny because it's like, it's. It's like you can't defend it, right? It's like, what do you say? Like I said, I'm not gonna sell whatever, you know? So it's like, it's indefensible. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I love it.

Speaker B: Alan.

Speaker A: Uh, dude, I feel like we could. We could talk for another, like, six hours.

Speaker B: I know it's a lot. It's a lot not be here in this.

Speaker A: We could probably piece together both podcasts and make it an irresistible offer. You write the copy, though. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, no, thank you.

Speaker A: You can release it. Really appreciate your time. Thank you so, so much. Uh, for the listeners who don't want to buy, uh, and for the ones who want to buy, how can they get in touch with you?

Speaker B: That's hard to find, man. So, like, just honestly, like, again, join the NHB group, uh, the Facebook group. Just find the Nothing Helpback Group. Or go to nothingheldback.com, get on our waiting list for the platform. We're almost done. And, um, look at my name.

Speaker A: Nothing says I don't. Nothing says I'm not selling you. Then, hey, go figure it out.

Speaker B: No, no.

Speaker A: You want to buy it? You'll figure out if you want money. You'll figure out how to get me the money. How about that?

Speaker B: Well, go. Go in the group, search my name. Like, honestly, the best thing to do. Just search my name. Look at the post I've shared for two to three years. And then let the content, Let the. Let the thoughts, let. Let the knowledge itself prove itself to You. And if you like it, then you can find her. You know, you can ask where. How to join. You know, join a party over. And like, so that's what people do. But it's special. It's magical because it's like, uh, it's so funny though, because it's like I have this, um, by the way, the Google Doc that's, That's, you know, the way, like, so we have this, like, shitty Google Doc like, I created. And it's like, uh, I haven't updated in, like, two years. Honestly, it's just been this, like, thing. It's like we have, like, so many, like, wins, uh, and success stories. I'm like, ah, uh, maybe we should put the new ones in. I'm like, ah, fuck it. So it's like, um, yeah, it's all there. Just go look, explore. Thank, um, you for having me. I really appreciate it. Dude. Um, yeah, we can do another one of these if you like. I enjoy. I enjoy with you.

Speaker A: Yeah. In seven months.

Speaker B: All right.

Speaker A: Thanks, buddy.

Speaker B: It's hard to get started, but once it's going, it's easy, you know, it's the. It's inertia. Getting over the inertia, you know?

Speaker A: Hey, hey, hey. Ah, I'm. I'm persistent, I'll tell you that much. And then you made the mistake, your cell phone number, and then that was just even more of a disaster for you.

Speaker B: Now you're a great guy, man. You're Canadian. All Canadians by default. Like good people. It's like, can't, can't. You cannot dislike Canadians. It's like, impossible. You're universally loved. Huh? Huh?

Speaker A: I said I appreciate it. Thank you, Alan.

Speaker B: Cool. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Hey, everyone, thank you so much for paying attention and tuning into that episode. If you enjoyed it, please do me a favor. Go leave a five star review. Leave a review, leave some comments, share it with some friends. Spread the love. It would mean the world to me. Uh, thank you so much for your attention and for tuning in, and I will see you on the next episode.