Cannes is CES with Rosé

Speaker A: Are you in an airplane? What is that?

Speaker B: This is the real can. This is. This is it. Uh, my Airbnb in Antibes, and there's no closet. Not closet. There's no closet.

Speaker A: So your plans to come out of the closet or have been dashed.

Speaker B: Cute. Should we get started?

Speaker A: I don't know what we're starting, but yeah, I got thoughts.

Speaker B: Welcome to People vs Algorithms. I'm Brian Morrissey. I'm joined by Troy Young. Alex Schleifer's either on route back from Japan or, I don't know, he's just not here. That's the long and the short of it. I'm exhausted. I know nobody likes to hear about can. The original can. Um, I don't even know if people who are in Cannes want to hear about Cannes. It's a very tiring week. All this, like, socializing and talking for an awkward socializer like me. Troy, you called me. You know, it's. It's hard work, but I'm still here. I just got off a, ah, podcast that I did with Neil Vogel. Machine Gun Vogel, I guess, as you call him, and Sarah Fisher.

Speaker A: Do you think that through all of this, this kind of monetization, transformation that you've gone through since, you know, leaving the editorial world, has it changed you? Do you think. Do you think you've become less awkward?

Speaker B: I. I think so. Because, like, you have to. You have to be out there selling, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. You made the point in your newsletter that that's why politicians shake hands all the time. You gotta always be engaging the. The audience. Selling, selling, selling.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, you gotta always be selling. I think that's why Matt Bellamy took a. Took a potshot at K. He said it was. It was basically a soulless corporate boondoggle and it was tacky. Uh, business conference for selling advertising, God forbid, and announcing brand partnerships.

Speaker A: That's.

Speaker B: That's actually true. Populated mostly by paunchy middle managers and YouTubers. It's rough stuff. It's very on brand for Puck. It's a snooty brand. I don't know. I don't know about that. But, you know, he said it's nothing. It's nothing like the. The film festival.

Speaker A: This is.

Speaker B: This is apparently lower rent. Guess what? There's also more money that is in this than in the film festival. So that's how the world works, Matt. And also, if you didn't have Liz Golf out there selling ads, no wonder he hasn't hung his own shingle. Because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to be involved in the street fight. That is being. Being feral, being.

Speaker A: Well, not everybody has to do both, Brian. I think it's fine to, to separate the roles.

Speaker B: Yeah, but that's fine.

Speaker A: But only that it's. It's. There's nothing new. That there's a, uh, sort of L. A, you know, Hollywood arrogance to the. You know, to the. The other can.

Speaker B: I didn't say it was new.

Speaker A: I mean, can is, you know, is fancy ces. That's all it is. It's CES in the south of France. It's possible, you know, with a better brand. It's an ad tech festival.

Speaker B: It isn't an ad tech festival only.

Speaker A: Well, it's a creator slash ad tech slash ad sales festival.

Speaker B: There's definitely a lot of selling going on here. I like it. There's a. There. You know, actually, ad tech, I think, is becoming a little bit less overwhelming here. It's sort of. It's. It's enmeshed in the fabric now. It brings together all sides. It's harmless. I don't know why people get all excited about can or like. I, I mean excited by, like, why. Why expend negative energy on a harmless. A harmless corporate boondoggle. It was once described to me many years ago as spring break with business cards. But it's become a much more tame affair, I think. I don't go to the gutter bar. I retired from that.

Speaker A: Yeah, you old man. Uh, you old. Listen, I. I had lots of good times there. I've thrown good parties there. I've. I was. I remember my first observation that media is a business of. Of marginal revenue whereby you can justify, you know, crazy, exorbitant expenditures in the pursuit of a large insertion order. And it makes perfect sense to spend $50,000 on an outing. 50, um, on an outing. On an outing. When you're gonna get 5. 5 million back or 500 back. So that's the game of media. You know, your, Your revenue doesn't.

Speaker B: The last time you were in Cannes, $50,000 is not going to get you very far. You remember the Carl.

Speaker A: Well, it's going to get you a boat to central pay with a little private event for a cmo. It's going to work. That's fun.

Speaker B: So this, this, uh, publisher, this CEO of a publisher told me, best way guaranteed to get a response from a CMO if you put yacht in the subject line. Even if they can't come. He said they. They all responded. It was like. It was like an 85% response. Rate just by putting yacht in the subject line. So CMOs are. Are suckers for yachts. Which is weird because one of my cardinal rules of can is to never get on a boat that leaves a dock. You don't want to be hostage to that. You don't want to do that. You've been requested several times here, Troy.

Speaker A: That's nice. It's nice to be wanted.

Speaker B: A lot of people can't, you know, came up to me and said, where's Troy? Where's Troy? Paul Cassar is wondering where you are, by the way.

Speaker A: Well, Paul, Paul is an old friend, but the, the. Why would I go though? What could possibly come of it? I don't care.

Speaker B: What about a PVA activation?

Speaker A: I don't care.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: I like the south of France. I was there three weeks ago. I think it's a fun place to hang out. I love a lot of the people, but, you know, I would end up, like, I have no purpose there. So I would end up feeling lost and a little sad and, like, not really knowing what to do myself. What am I doing? So I would sit and I would, you know, you know, freeload and drink a bunch of other people's and feel sad. Uh, yeah, I feel sad inside. And people would say to me, what are you doing now? And I would say something like, I'm, I'm semi, semi retired. And they would say, oh, that's interesting. You know, why and how do you make money and all that? Like, it's just, it's. It's a kind of emotional load that I, that I don't want to carry.

Speaker B: Well, anyway, the people.

Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, it just doesn't feel fun to you.

Speaker B: And Apple podcasting executive complained about your lack of mic discipline. Your mic is always, like, cutting in and out.

Speaker A: If I'm going to go to a conference, I want to feel good. I want to be stimulated. I want to know that there's a reason why I'm going other than I always went in the past. And so I'd rather go to, like, the Atlantic's Conversations at Sea than I would go to camp.

Speaker B: That's fair. That's fair. Did you catch my thing about the Apple podcasting executive who complained about your lack of mic discipline?

Speaker A: No, but I'm, um, I'm. I'm open to hearing how to improve. What. What is the problem? Do I move in and out of the mic because it's annoying when people do that? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So he's, he said it drives him nuts. He's Gonna. He's gonna help us figure that out. Alex, I got. How do I pronounce Christian? Beth Basler. Is it Basler? Yeah, he came to my mixer. He's the interim CEO, uh, of, uh, Business Insider. I think they're going to take the interim part off. This is not from anything Christian said. This is my.

Speaker A: It almost always happens that way. Interim is always a path. And plus, the Germans trust the German.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's gonna happen. I like Christian. He asked me, he said, what is. He's German. He said, what is. What's Alex's nationality? And I said, I don't know.

Speaker A: I think his father's Austrian and his mother is French.

Speaker B: Right. He said, he doesn't seem French. I don't know if he meant that as a compliment or not.

Speaker A: Oh, no, he's French. That's the bitchy side of him.

Speaker B: Well, I look forward to him being back. So what have I missed? I can give you everything that is being discussed here, but what, Like, I've basically been on a different planet. I've been activating all week. I think I've spoken publicly for a good 14 hours on yachts, in villas, at the Bloomberg Studios. Well, I don't know.

Speaker A: Where do you want to start? The.

Speaker B: About. About Albertsons and Procter and Gamble and their, their new mini sitcom that they've launched.

Speaker A: Mhm. You know, that's the funny thing. We thought that retail media was this sort of clinical practice where one would take the data set from all of your, you know, customer transactions and build sort of search like, or, you know, you know, surgical advertising products. And now they don't have places to put. They don't have kind of surface area for their, for their ads. So they have to now make media to get places to put the ads that are targeted with their retail data. So they're creating, you know, production studios and doing micro dramas and things like

Speaker B: that, but they're using shopper data to do it. See? Data and creativity. Do you know the company? Do you know, you know, Cargo? You know Harry Cargo?

Speaker A: Yeah, Harry's a hustler, Cargo. He's got, he's got the pure handshaking spirit that you. That you admire.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've only, I've only met him a few times, but I look at

Speaker A: that company and I just want to punch myself in the face, honestly, because

Speaker B: this isn't going to help get a sponsorship. So people are like, why don't you monetize people?

Speaker A: Well, this is, uh, the, you know, it's one of my classic Backhanded compliments. It's uh, so that single ad unit on which that company is based and they've done an admirable job taking basically hijacking the mobile web page with a little adhesive banner on the bottom of um, you know, with like a Big Mac coming out.

Speaker B: Coming out, yeah.

Speaker A: From good brands. Super annoying if you're a customer. I created that ad originally. You know this, I created it at Videoegg.

Speaker B: I.

Speaker A: It was, it had never been seen. I did it, I put it at the bottom. I forget what we called it. And we built a very profitable ad network effectively around that, that specific ad offering, that unit, that format. And then we kind of got bored with it and said we don't want to own an ad network. Let's buy six apart and create a kind of modern Conde Ness. And that was the biggest mistake we ever made. This is Matt, Matt. Matt Sanchez and I talk about this all the time. It's like we started buying media properties, we started hiring editors and editorial teams. Our business just got worse and worse. This is when it became same media. The purest form of the business was an engagement based mobile ad network with sticky banners. And it was extremely effective. And Harry has just done that to perfection over, uh, at Cargo and to the point now that he's made personally, you know, hundreds, probably hundreds of millions of dollars and can also do drone shows at Cannes. It's great. Love it.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, so every night Cargo, I think it was every night. I only saw it one night, but people told me it was every night. Cargo is like these swarms of drones that are. It's pretty remarkable when you see what these drones can do. And, and one of the publishers I was standing next to and their drone show has gone on, he's like, I'm going to have to talk to them about our deal. He's like, this looks expensive, but good for. For cargo. They have a good, they got a good hustle going on here. Uh, one of the other noteworthy things here, the Carlton Terrace, if you remember, that was always the locus of the action here. They're in full financialization mode. You would appreciate this. It's €100 per person, per hour for a table anytime. 10am 10am you want a table for five, that's €500 an hour.

Speaker A: M. Wow. Uh, you would have think. You would have thought they made enough off the drinks, right? That's crazy.

Speaker B: Gerald Booms or whatever, uh, of rose and champagne.

Speaker A: No, does. Is it the same Does Michael Carson and the other sort of leaders of the ad world still own the Carlton.

Speaker B: I don't know.

Speaker A: That's where Ren and Maurice and all those guys would hold court. And it was really Cassin's place.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, can's find what has gone on outside of the can world. Has, Has AI taken over anything yet or are they not taking over anything?

Speaker A: Well, it's hot in Paris. We could start there.

Speaker B: Hot can. I'm sick of hearing people like talk about, about the heat.

Speaker A: People are swimming in public waters.

Speaker B: You can swim in the sand now.

Speaker A: You can in certain areas. Yeah. People are finding shopping carts and old bicycles at the bottom. You know, they're disregarding the fact that it's a kind of commercial waterway filled with toxic sludge. And I think they're coming around air conditioning. They're, they're. It's like not a bad idea. It's 100 degrees, man. People live, you know, in Phoenix for six months of the year where it's more than 100 degrees. They just have air conditioning. It's fine. People go to Las Vegas, there's air conditioning.

Speaker B: The French are under pressure on this. I mean, supposedly they kill more people like with their lack of air conditioning than we do with guns. I find that hard to believe. I also think it's very wonky what they chalk up to a heat gun. They have a cultural aversion to air conditioning spectrum.

Speaker A: I. Yeah, uh, I mean people thought it was unnatural and it was anti environment and no, it's full of grip sleep.

Speaker B: They're worried about getting sick. That's why they wear the little like neckerchiefs.

Speaker A: My, my meta observation. I, you know, I don't, I haven't read a lot of canon news. I've looked at what you've written and you know, just read not a news in the trades, not a news. But, but here's, here's the thing that I find amazing and it's, it's interesting to try to kind of shape what's going on with a model. Maybe that's best. The best analogy would be kind of Hollywood, probably. And it's that I, and I, I think I've said this on the podcast before. I remember distinctly say a decade ago, I ran Hearst globally. So I had an office in China and the, the two offices, actually, they, they were very, very concerned at the time about the rise of influencers on platforms and how this was eroding the, the, the, the position of, of media brands in China. And I was not at the time unsure. I was unsure as to what to kind of say as to, you know, what our strategy would be, should be there. And, you know, the answer was probably pretty simple. It was like, well, let's compete on, you know, the sort of quality of our content and let's try to bring, you know, more of those creative, you know, creator influencer people into, into our tent. You know, and, and I, and I thought to myself at the time, I'm glad I don't have to worry about this here in America. And since then, the creator economy has completely hijacked media. And I think that if you were to say anything about Cannes this year, it would be that it was, you know, as much as it is a sort of, you know, industry gathering, ad tech conference, whatever you want to say. It's a creator gathering. And it's interesting to reflect on how. I guess if I was just to sum it up, you can check me on this. But like the platform kind of ecosystem or platform economy has, you know, fragmented media in a way that the future is just, you know, talent media brands that kind of come and go, not unlike a TV show brand, that hold talent, you know, other franchises that are longer lasting, particularly in news and, you know, studios effectively that try to put a little bit of structure around creators to help them manage the operational and marketing complexities of, of a, uh, media life. And to me, like, can was very, you know, like that, that phenomenon was, was a big part of, of, of the stuff on the ground in Cannes this year. You went to some creator events, right?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, 100%. I actually swung by.

Speaker A: I mean, you're, you're one yourself, right? So you've got some authority here.

Speaker B: Uh, you're saying that with your smart, your trademark smirk for those who are.

Speaker A: No, no, no, B2B. You're a B2B creator.

Speaker B: You know, normally I would push back, but I think there's actually leverage in the market. I think there's a window for like B2B creators. I would have never thought it. And honestly, I'm, I'm fine with it. So anyone out there, you can call me a B2B creator. I'm fine with it.

Speaker A: Both you and your wife, uh, are B2B creators. Breaking news here.

Speaker B: This one I know, it's a creator household. I swung by, know Yahoo had a dinner on Monday night. Like they, I don't know if it hosted it. It was Emily Sundberg. It was like, it was very strange just to see. It was like feed me like hosted a dinner at ah, like Yahoo. And it was all. It was filled with all these creators I didn't go to.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think Jim got sort of smitten with Emily, as many people do, and he thought, how can I. How can I set this thing next to my brand to give me some, you know, cachet? That's what happened.

Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I mean, I'm not quite

Speaker A: sure, and I'm sure it worked. I mean, it's a good way to do it.

Speaker B: I saw Rachel. Rachel Carton was there. You know, Oren James. He's the Internet's creative director. He's great. It's Oren meets World on Instagram. This guy's high octane, high agency. And he has a really great. He's a really good creator. And he even organized this creator house out a little bit outside of Cannes. And it was in this sprawling villa. And I stopped by and there was just like a bunch of creators less than half my age, like, eating dinner together. They just had like 500 people come through. They were bringing marketers through. They were creating content and whatnot. And that's, you know, that's the future. I remember coming to Cannes. You know, it's supposedly a festival of creativity where it was the creative directors, like, you know, at Ogilvy or at Droga and whatnot, who were like the stars of it, but really this kind of festival. And if there is a festival, if it were to be about creativity and not a carnival of capitalism, you know, it would be about people like that. Because I don't know if a creative person goes into advertising, like, when you just make your own stuff, like before, it was always like, you go into. You go into to advertising while you do what you're passionate about on the side or whatever. Everyone's a DJ or whatever, and you do that to pay the bills. And you get like, yeah, you can get a house, maybe not in shelter, but, you know, you could get one, you know, upstate, maybe in the Poconos.

Speaker A: Well, I noticed this week that Forbes launched a new creator offering. You know, Forbes is, you know, build the kind of tent for. For outsiders to publish under their brand. They did that with the Contributor Network, which was Forbes, you know, rooted in.

Speaker B: They say yes to everything. I mean, the strategy is just. Yes, yes.

Speaker A: Promiscuous. They're promiscuous for sure. But, you know, as the creator market shifted to video, now everybody's an MCN, right? Like, the, you know, McNs kind of came and went. But really, the idea of aggregating up a bunch of creators and turning it into an, uh, ad product Is. Is very much in vogue again. By the way, how many podcasts did you do this week? You are speaking of promiscuous.

Speaker B: I did, like. I did, like, 15. I did a 15 podcast. Well, it depends if you count them. I did. I did a video series here. I did, like, six different, like, mini video podcasts. They were great. I had a studio. I had a studio at Zuma before. Before our. Our media leaders dinner, which you insulted, but that's fine.

Speaker A: Listen, I'm not doing a party at some cafe on the Croisset. We're not. That's not a thing.

Speaker B: It's not. First of all, Zuma is not a cafe. Zuma is a clubstarrant.

Speaker A: They have.

Speaker B: They have. They have one in Dubai, let's put it that way.

Speaker A: But I mean, let's. Let's just let people into your, like, your kind of emotional life a little bit, because you're a little punchy today and you're. You seem tired. You look tired. Are you.

Speaker C: Ha.

Speaker A: Are you happy? Is this. Are you happy with your new life?

Speaker B: Oh, God, you can't ask that. Uh, at the end of can. Yeah, of course I'm happy. It's very nice, honestly. It's very nice to know we're happy.

Speaker A: Ah. Because the hustle feels exhausting. Do you feel relevant? Is that what it is? Is that what's making you happy?

Speaker B: Relevant? No, I have relevance. Doesn't. That doesn't matter to me. I mean, like, I think I. I think I am, but, like, uh, that's not what. I don't know. That's not what drives me. No, I think it's. It's. It's nice to be able to, you know, even just putting on, like, dinners and putting on the mixer. We had, like, 95 people come through Troy, you know, yacht parties, villa. A bunch of people were just at a villa, you know, for. That's nice. It's fun. And, you know, honestly, it's like something.

Speaker A: What's your go to sort of, you know, conversation starter these days? Like. Like, I can. What do you. Why do you kick something off? What's your chit chat inventory?

Speaker B: Nobody wants to hear this. I don't know. It depends. It depends on the person. I don't know. You comment on their clothing or something. Okay, I. I falsely accused Ryan Pauly of wearing Crocs today. He. He said they were fear of God. He got. He got a little. Got a little talk about punchy. He got a little punchy when I called them Crocs.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Or Crocs.

Speaker A: Bet I love them personally. I have many pairs. I think they're terrific. The, the one other comment I'll make and then we can move on is the. I thought you did an amazing job on the, on the Peter Kafka podcast.

Speaker B: Oh, did that come out great?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You were funny and self effacing and authoritative. Great. Perfect. Loved it.

Speaker B: Okay, good. I gotta listen. I gotta listen to myself. Yeah, I have done a lot of podcasts. It's been a cr. It's been a crazy week. That's why when people say, oh, what, what are your big takeaway? It's very funny for me because I run into a lot of people who I've known for many years and like when I feel like when people know you at certain stage of your life, you always stay there, you know, and they, they think I'm like running around like, you know, reporting at the Palais on like, or like going to a panel or something. I'm like, no, I'm like hustling out here. Hustling. Um, what other topics?

Speaker A: Last question. Did you smoke?

Speaker B: No, I didn't smoke. I don't drink anymore. If you don't. If you don't drink, why do you. Why would anyone. Why would you smoke?

Speaker A: Oh, I like smoking in the morning better.

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker A: That's a coffee. You know, I love, love a cigarette in the morning. I don't do it, but I mean like Obama likes a cigarette in the morning.

Speaker B: Okay. I will say not drinking during can. Is very. It can be disorienting a little bit. But I think what the interesting thing is you start to realize when people are really drunk. Like I don't think, I think when you're also drinking, you don't recognize like when people are completely bombed and more people are bombed than you think. Actually I would be like talking with people and I always, just now I just think that they're sober. But then like after a few, I'm like, wait, this person's not sober at all. But it's the. Again, there's less of that. At least that I saw in. It used to be a real like intense party scene. I'm sure that still exists. The gutter bar, which is the famous bar that's terrible that spills out into the street, that has fencing around it. It's all being corralled. So it's not as fun as it used to be. Wow.

Speaker A: Well, the other things that happened when you were gone and maybe this is just when you were leaving, is that this sort of the glasses war is heating up. Oh, yes. Yeah. Evan from Snapchat came out with those ones that made his ears bend. They were a little bit heavy. He's here.

Speaker B: He's here. By the way, he loves games.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, he doesn't wear them. He wears aviators instead of wearing those when he's being, you know, doing like a interview, which I think is wise. Maybe it's a v1 problem. Anyway, shortly thereafter, Meta came out with, I think a much more successful launch, a collab with Kylie. I noticed Emily Sundberg was wearing the glasses around can. They're much more stylish, they're lighter on the face. They look like normal sunglasses.

Speaker B: She get paid to do that?

Speaker A: I'm not her manager.

Speaker B: I bet she got paid. I met her manager. I met him at the dinner. He was like, you gotta take a photo with these. This is what I'm saying. There's like an opening for these for creators. I mean, Emily's got a little bit of like.

Speaker A: Anyway, I can attest to those glasses being kind of useful, you know, like what Alex wants. He's right. Just give me the, take the camera off the, uh, glasses, give me, you know, smart glasses that are just audio driven. Allow me to kind of make a phone call, extend the battery life, allow me to listen to a podcast and we'll. They'll be all voice operated and that's a nice product. I think you'll see that soon. But these glasses look good. They look good. And they're $299, not $2,200. So that, that happened.

Speaker B: No screen. There's no like screen like on it.

Speaker A: No, that's where they get heavy and expensive. No, there's nothing like that. But the glasses war is heating up because everybody wants to, to, to, you know, somehow get around the, the, the phone as, as a, as a platform play. So they're not going to give. No one's given up on it. Meta's not given up on it. Snapchat's not given up on it. Google's going to come at it. Apple's going to come at it. It's classes are going to be everywhere. So there was.

Speaker B: That is OpenAI. Do we know what their device is with? Jony? I've.

Speaker A: It's a new phone. I think it's a phone competitor. Yeah. The other thing I can't figure out on the new product front is there's a lot of videos going around of uh, the Apple, the Apple folding phone, like high quality, like seemingly real videos, like product, product in walkthroughs and they're fake. They gotta be fake. Apple doesn't do that. They don't.

Speaker B: Yeah, Apple, they, like, don't. They famously have, like, before everything was biometric that you had to, like, scan your. Scan your retinas to get into the TWA unit. Whatever they call Mall Media Arts Lab. That was like. It's a secretive bunker or something that. That where they made ads.

Speaker A: I put a video of an unboxing for this new phone on field notes. And, um. It looks real, man. It's like, I want to get this phone, by the way, but I will get this phone immediately when it comes out. But the. I don't know how it happened. It's just like the AI renderings of future products are so sophisticated now that they're, you know, indistinguishable from real. Real product launches. It's kind of funny.

Speaker B: That's gonna be a problem. By the way, I was in a BYD for the first time here.

Speaker A: Okay, how was that?

Speaker B: Nice cars. I mean, they're nice, but, like, as. As a guy who was driving it was. Was saying to me, they feel like plastic. Like, the whole car feels plastic. They're very antiseptic. Like, I think that the problem with the BYD cars is they're not very. I guess they lack a little bit of taste. They lack a little refinement. That's it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Hey, listen, there's a video about Tesla's aspiration to make a car every five seconds. And when you see this and how they've innovated the production process and how they're applying that to the new Robotaxi line, and you just grok the idea that 5. A car pops off the line every five seconds. It's like robot army stuff. It's kind of crazy. Every five seconds, boom, boom, uh, boom, boom. Uh, car, car, car, car. And so the whole innovation that they're chasing is, like, the driverless stuff and all that, but it's like, extremely low cost, efficiently produced cars made in factories with robots and. No. You know, at a. At a level of efficiency that nobody can match. And their most productive factory is in China, and it's popping out a car right now every, like, 27 seconds. Crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Europe. Europe shouldn't do technology. I'm, uh, sorry to all our European friends out there. You guys should. I think. I think they're just kind of mailing it in on this. They've got these biometric scanners at the. At the airports, and they don't work. It was like one of those things where they have to like scan your face, then it keeps moving and when you move like, it moves. It was a total shit show in Luxembourg Airport. They're doing this just to get revenge on Brits and on Americans who are vacationing here. It is completely pointless. The other thing is Alex, I know he's pro buttons, pro knobs. The French have these. I've been, I've been commuting by train. I'm a train commuter, right. So I, I go to the Antibes train station and I'm trying to just buy a ticket, like a three euro ticket. And I have to hit. They have this little circular knob that you use for navigation and it takes at least like 30 steps to, to buy tickets. That's my, that's my Europe technology report. What else do we have on the docket, Troy?

Speaker A: Well, we have AI as the most important lever in the modern empire race.

Speaker B: Hasn't that been the case for a long time now? I'm doing well.

Speaker A: I think that people are realizing when they shut Anthropic down that that's a, that's, you know, the practical application of empire power now. Like, that's the most disruptive thing that you can do. And imagine a future where America and its, you know, frontier companies races ahead such that they have, you know, a little bit of a, you know, pole position on, on intelligence and you end up having unimaginable power in the world. So AI is the, is the new, you know, kind of leverage point for empires. I think that's, yeah, that sense, I don't think that's news. But it's okay.

Speaker B: It's okay. No, here, like everyone was, everyone was bullshitting about their agentic capabilities. I mean, ad tech can be truly shameless, I gotta say. Like, none of it's real. I mean, like, is it real? Like agents aren't going out and like doing decisioning and actually, you know, buying transact on the advertising and making decisions. Like it's just, it's not happening. But everyone has to have an AI story to tell. And you know, AI and agents should be a major threat to a lot of the middlemen that exist, but instead they're just building AI wrappers on their technology and calling it a day. So guess what that means? More fees. More fees are coming.

Speaker A: Well, you know, I, I feel like we're finally, you know, coming to terms with the, the nihilistic kind of side of AI progress. There's an article that one of our friends, your friends, shared on PVA notes from Asterix magazine. I Don't know what it is, but it. It has a bunch of interviews with, you know, AI researchers on the probability of it being end. End of times. And, you know, the sentiment has. Has changed a little bit from like, oh, my God, we should fear this to it's inevitable, and let's just party like it's 1999, and if the end of the world comes on account of AI, you know, so be it. There's nothing we can do about it. So let's. Let's have a good time.

Speaker B: That sounds like a good strategy. Did you say that A24 is like raising a bunch of money? I think A24 is a fascinating kind of like a modern. A modern studio. Like they put hands in all kinds of different things.

Speaker A: I, uh, uh, went to a play at their new rehabilitated playhouse in the West Village. Yeah. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And the restaurant is tucked in behind. Yeah, it's, uh. What an amazing thing for a company to do. Great. Smart. Well, how do they work? What's the secret? What's going on in there?

Speaker B: I don't know. We have to. We have to get Anna on to talk about a 24 and about.

Speaker A: Maybe she could, if she's up for patch her in.

Speaker B: Do you want to talk about a 24?

Speaker C: Okay, so a 24 is fascinating because they're a tastemaker. They're not the production studio, they're not a distribution studio. They're not a movie studio. They're a tastemaker, which means they're applying their taste. Everyone knows what an A24 movie is. If you look at the numbers, about 60% went to see back rooms before because of a director. 30% went to see it because it's a 24 movie.

Speaker A: You know what the closest precedent to that was was Searchlight. Oh, she can't hear you. Put it on the speaker. Boss.

Speaker B: Don't. Attitude. Troy thinks the, uh.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. What is this, a European soccer interview? Oh, my God. This is comical. This is going to be good entertainment. I love this. Thank you. Anna. Nice to see you. I always marveled the closest to that. In the old days, Anna, was Fox Studio Searchlight, where you would go to Searchlight movies because you knew they were all good.

Speaker C: Yes, because that was a stamp of approval. And I think I agree. Wasn't it Focus Features for a second? I don't know.

Speaker A: Miramax had it a bit too. For a time before Harvey went away.

Speaker C: They did. And I was. When I was sort of reverse engineering at 24, I was thinking, are, ah, There branded house. Are there a house of brands? Are there endorsement model and they're probably the closest to endorsement model when the brand uh puts endorsement on the separate sub brands. So there is a restaurant while Cherry they bought the oldest off Broadway theater company, Cherry Lane Theater where I'm m having event tasteful on October 15th. Uh then they have a clothing line.

Speaker B: Everyone's selling in Cannes.

Speaker C: They have their merch but you know what actually their merch is their weakest point, their weakest link because they have done that so many times in the same format that sort of everyone else started doing it. I don't like what they've done with the backgrounds with the, with the wallpaper. The bigger point really is that you really don't have a company that can be also a music uh production studio. They have their recording arm and then they have their books arm, they have book publishing arm. So you basically have a culture producer. The one problem is they started making hundred million dollar movies.

Speaker A: What's the, who's the leader of the company and what is that person doing to make this happen? Like what did, did you get a sense of the culture of the company and the leadership, very startup culture?

Speaker C: I did. I met with them last year where we were talking about they believe it or not have a brand challenge. They don't know how to define their brand. They don't know how to define the brand identity. So they are working, I don't know with some agency now on that. And they were also figuring out where to go next in terms of merch collaborations and so on. And I strongly believe they can build a strong retail presence because if you think about the brutal is the movie, 50% of people who did not see the movie knew about the sweaters in the movie. So imagine building complete fashion line around the sweaters in the movie.

Speaker A: So do you just, do you think it's just, it's just modern, it's just this is how all studios will be structured in the future or do you think it's unique?

Speaker C: I think it's in between and I'll tell you why. Because 824 very easily can become a uh, Hollywood movie studio if they continue making hundred million dollar movies. Backrooms was less than 10 million. So that's kind of back to the roots. And I do think that they need to kind of reassess and they need to define their brand and they need to define their growth strategy for sure because they as a startup, as a challenger had a very clear identity. They know exactly who they are as A, uh, as a dominant, I don't think they do.

Speaker A: How are you doing? You sound a little hoarse.

Speaker C: I'm trying to figure this. I'm trying to figure out how to open this.

Speaker A: Did you have a good time at Cannes, Anna?

Speaker C: I had a productive time. Very productive time, as you can say, tell from my voice.

Speaker A: Productive. Meaning you found some new opportunities?

Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: It's pretty cool. You guys are the Partridge Family, right? You're like a creator family.

Speaker C: I don't know. But, like, I'm gonna leave you with this thought. If a 24 doesn't figure out its modern identity, it will not stay the cool kid on the block.

Speaker A: Beautiful.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Thank you, Anna.

Speaker B: I caught most of what happened. That was for those of you listening at home. That was Ana Angelic. Thank you, Anna, for the cameo appearance. It was just like 2D on facts of Life.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker B: Okay, do we have other things? What are we.

Speaker A: What do we.

Speaker B: What else do we have on the docket to discuss? I don't have. I. Again, I have. Honestly, I have. I have no idea what is going on in the outside world. Oh, one thing that came up here that I'm just going to say a very large newspaper company. I was very surprised. I was doing a video interview with the CEO. Uh, and usually these things are pretty benign. People don't say interesting things in Cat, you know, and I was like, I'm going to ask him about the AI negotiations and whatnot. And he's like, oh, we're going to. We're going to. We're going to take ourselves off Google. We're going to cut off their crawler. I was like, yeah, I was like, but you can't. You know, their. Their AI crawler is the same as their search crawlers. Like, yeah, we're just going to cut them all off because our search traffic is declining to such a degree that. Screw them, you're gonna take it off. That's kind of an interesting. I. I have not heard that from a publisher, you know, Machine Gun Vogel, because, you know, he's. He's. He's knocking Google around a lot.

Speaker A: So what does that. What does that do for the publisher? Like, Google? I don't think Google cares. Or. I mean, unless this is a, you know, scaled publisher of breaking news that's highly relevant. I mean, maybe it. It. Does the publisher have local news that might be a problem?

Speaker B: I think the biggest thing it does, and I think all of this is about creating pressure in Washington on Google. There's. There's pressure in, for instance, in. In The UK is that cma. I forget. One of their, one of their acronym regulators is like, uh, you can't do this thing where you keep the, the search crawler the same as the AI crawler because you know it's a. What is that a Hobson's choice? Like you can't, you. Basically, they can't cut off the search traffic even if it's declining and they don't want it to suck up their, their content.

Speaker A: Google's publicly saying there's ways around this, by the way, so I think we need more authority on the topic. But I, I understand that the logic that you can't go would never.

Speaker B: I'll tell you this, every single publisher complains about this. So either they're all making it up or something else is afoot. I mean, I know Google has a don't be evil mantra and everything, but that was also a long time ago.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what's your take? Your take is the publishing world will slowly figure out a way to exercise collective power against Google, starving them of a critical data source and they will unlock new deals with publishers. Or how does it play out? We know the biggest use case for the LLMs is coding. It's not going to change that in any way. What's it going to do to these guys? Is it going to force them to come to the table with bags of money for publishers?

Speaker B: I mean, I don't think they're going to come to the table with bags of money. It's always going to be less than publishers think. But there is a compelling case to be made that as these LLMs are increasingly commoditized, access to fresh, accurate content is going to be a differentiator. If you, if you're the only LLM with the New York Times, the same as exclusives like you then, um, and anyone who uses these notes, they're really bad about up to date content. Like, try to use it to know like what happened in the World cup, you know, it's not, they're not really good at that. And so yeah, I mean, ideally they're going to set up an economic system where not just the biggest publishers, but all content creators have an incentive to actually continue to create content. Like, I agree, people will still be making Reddit posts and all the rest of that, but a new economic bargain needs to be made. I was talking with a guy like, I like the idea of a micropayments regime. I know micropayments never work right, but all these agents are going to need access to all this Content and Sam Altman has even mentioned this, although his numbers were really wacky. The agents will pay like a fraction of a cent or a cent or whatever for access to content. So you're going to have a business of selling to agents. I love that.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, it's interesting to think more broadly how it plays out. I think that there's a handful of scaled media companies that get in the position of being relevant enough having a unique enough data set, having the scale that they get, they start to you know, get material payments from the platforms and distributors, not unlike how cable companies operated. I think that you're even seeing this in Europe now. Pressure on YouTube to create space for publishers like the BBC to you know, basically get priority position inside of YouTube which is, you know like being carried on any kind of, you know, as the, the base channel on any system which is going to be really, really good for a handful of, of of of of media companies. And, and, and I think what, what ends up happening is you see this market where actually the, the business for the bigger guys like you know, Wall Street Journal, BBC scaled news companies, people, you know, they, they, they start to find a little more slack in their m, in their model and, and, and uh, little bit of kind of diversified revenue position and then the rest of the market is creators and then that's kind of the long term structure that emerges. So it's a little bit like, I suppose it's a little like Hollywood.

Speaker B: That sounds right. I mean it's the mid market that's getting crushed and always gets crushed. And look, it's in the interest of the platforms to have millions of creators, not to have a bunch of you know, publishers who are constantly whining, you know they, they love, they love the, the creator economy because they can, they can push them around just the same way that they did with publishers. But like creators have even less leverage. I mean creators don't have, can't like uh, put political pressure on them. I mean a lot of these news companies are able to put political pressure on these companies. I mean they're not coming to the table. You know it's interesting that Anthropic and I think this is the advantage of their B2B positioning. You know, Anthropic isn't doing any of these deals with publishers but they don't have the existing search business, you know, that Google has and so they're not paying at all. And Claude's being used by a lot of people. But you don't hear publishers taking shots at anthropic now, OpenAI was here in Cannes and they were. They're pushing their. Their ads product because all roads always lead to advertising. Sorry, Matt Bellamy. That's just the way it works. Sam Altman joins a long line of tech, uh, CEOs who shit on advertising and then adopt it.

Speaker A: What space space did they have?

Speaker B: I, um, don't actually know, to be honest with you. They didn't have, like, a massive space.

Speaker A: Did you go. You didn't go in investment?

Speaker B: No, they didn't invite me to anything. Sadly. I don't. I don't need that kind of stuff. Fear.

Speaker A: I'll try.

Speaker B: You know, Jeff Bezos was not here as far as I know, but his yacht was seen, you know, off the coast. You know, they have, like, a $70 billion plus ad business now. He's a guy who said that advertising is the tax you pay for having an unremarkable product. Change this tune.

Speaker A: It's not advertising. It's slotting thieves. Ah.

Speaker B: The IAB used to have, like, a category called slotting fees.

Speaker A: One last question on the can thing, because we seem to be unable to escape this. Who are the cool kids this year?

Speaker B: I've been all week. What do you expect from me? Who are the cool kids?

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, who are the cool kids now in Cannes? Like, it feels to me like companies like Hurst and people are so uncool. Who's cool? What parties are cool?

Speaker B: I don't know, to be honest with you. I mean, I think creators are. Are kind of, I guess, the cool kids. But they're up against all the celebrities that are here.

Speaker A: But there's like. There's the off the kind of radar parties. Like, my billionaire friend had all the basketball players come to his villa.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they did.

Speaker B: I don't know. I'm not in. I'm not in those circles. Those are your. That's why you should be here, because you can. Like, I'm with. I'm with the hoi polloi Troy.

Speaker A: I know. Did you go to the Hotel du Cap party?

Speaker B: You know, I've never been to the Hotel du Cap. That's what I'm telling you. Man of the people. I'm out on the street. I'm out on the Croisset kissing babies. Yeah, yeah. Shaking hands, kissing babies, petting dogs.

Speaker A: We should do a party at Hotel de Cap. That would be fun.

Speaker B: No, where we should do a party is La Bastide Saint Antoine. I did a dinner there for a couple years. It's a stunning place. It's in Grasse it's in the perfume cafe capital of the world. Smells amazing.

Speaker A: How far is that? Would people object to the distance?

Speaker B: So here's the trick that you do. You tell everyone that it's 15 minutes away. It's at least a half hour.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's an old one.

Speaker B: But nobody, Nobody can hold it against you. And can. I'm like, this is the best part about can is no one can hold, like, over monetizing against you, and nobody can hold it against you. Telling a little, Little fib. Because it's can everybody. And everybody's selling. Do you have a good product?

Speaker A: I do, yeah. Uh, I think it's real. It might disappoint a bit. I'm on a kick right now that I find very satisfying. And it's. I'm drinking a lot of chocolate milk.

Speaker B: Oh, I like chocolate milk.

Speaker A: Like, premium chocolate milk in the big glass container, and you just grab it out of the fridge and drink it right from the bottle.

Speaker B: You mean quick?

Speaker A: No, no, not quick. We don't. We don't do quick. We get the stuff from the. From the market. I really like chocolate milk, and I think it's good for you.

Speaker B: So a couple things on that. When I was like a psychotic runner, I was addicted to chocolate milk. It was like an amazing. It's a perfect recovery drink. It's got protein, it's got carbohydrates.

Speaker A: I use it to watch World Cup. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't use it for recovery.

Speaker B: Well, either way, it is. It's. I. I agree. Chocolate milk is a great drink.

Speaker A: You know, you asked a couple episodes back about, you know, all this, you know, consternation about ticket prices for the World cup and what was going to happen. And I. I think I suggested at the time that once the tournament started, this would all evaporate. And that is, in fact, what's happened. And I think it's really a beautiful thing, the World Cup. I love it so much. It's a big game today. Turkey and usa.

Speaker B: Well, the US it doesn't matter. Right. The USA is already through.

Speaker A: They're going to get through. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So, uh, one of the issues with this.

Speaker B: Do you call it Turkey A. Do you call it Turkey?

Speaker A: I know, I noticed everybody. I call it Turkey, but everybody's been calling it Turkey. What happened? Was there a press release?

Speaker B: They changed their name because they didn't like to be associated with the bird.

Speaker A: They thought it was that the reason

Speaker B: it was a brand problem. Yeah, I think. I mean, there might be There might be some other factors.

Speaker A: Turkeys are super annoying. There's a lot of them on Shelter island, and I. It's the only thing I could hit with my car and not regret it. They get into the yard, they bring bugs with them. They're not. They're not clean.

Speaker B: So I have a good restaurant suggestion for you because I know you're. Are, uh, you a gourmet or a gourmand?

Speaker A: I just like eating out at restaurants.

Speaker B: Gourmand.

Speaker A: It's my big personal line item. Expense line item.

Speaker B: Fat badger. It's in Notting Hill in London.

Speaker C: They.

Speaker B: They drop off this. This little handwritten note with the dishes that you did that you had there.

Speaker A: At the end of the meal.

Speaker B: Yeah, at the end of the meal, you know, it's like whatever. One set price.

Speaker A: And is it like elevated pub food?

Speaker B: I feel like everything is elevated pub food there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don't know. I mean, they had. They're cooking stuff over an open flame. Yeah. Like sort of modern updates to. To pub classics, I guess. Soda bread.

Speaker A: It's a world of herd over there in England. Huh. They can't. They can't keep. They can't keep anybody in. In the seat. What's going on?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, the Prime Minister.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, there's no growth and people are pissed off, and now they're blaming it all on Brexit, and it just feels.

Speaker B: There's a lot of. I'm telling you, when I was in the line of those malfunctioning biometric machines, there was a lot of Brits who were cursing Brexit around there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The Europeans were flying through into Luxembourg Airport, but not the Brits. I don't know. But then when you visit there, it's. I mean, the Brits like to. What do they call it? Winchester. They like to winch.

Speaker A: Uh, you're visiting 10 square miles in London. Okay. I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of what's going on in the country. You should go have surgery.

Speaker B: I don't want to go surgery there. I get my medical care in Serbia. Maybe I'll start to get it in the uk.

Speaker A: Are you getting. What do you get in Serbia? Like, hair loss treatments? Ed, what are you getting?

Speaker B: Hair loss. I. I don't have a hair loss problem, and I'm not socially awkward. Two lies about me. I'm not going to talk about my m. Medical care. I've gone.

Speaker C: I've got.

Speaker B: I've gone to the ear doctor there. I've gone to the dentist. You Know, some. Basically I've gotten like, you know, EKG and whatnot. It's like, you know, private hospital. It doesn't cost much money. They got advanced medical care. It's fine. I recommend medical tourism.

Speaker A: Well, for the folks that found this episode a little all over the place and chaotic. You can blame it on can. It'll get better next week. We will have a more orderly agenda. Uh, and we appreciate, we appreciate you.

Speaker B: I'm going to Los Angeles next week. Do you have any recommendations? I haven't been to Los Angeles in 10 years.

Speaker A: Are you going to Sofi Stadium?

Speaker B: No, I'm not.

Speaker A: Are you going to eat, like, Iranian or Lebanese food? What are you going for? Why are you going there?

Speaker B: I have a, I have a work engagement.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker B: I'll just leave it at that. I don't want to share more, but it's a working punishment.

Speaker A: Perfect.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Well, hopefully next week we're gonna have Alex back. And in the meantime, higher energy.

Speaker B: I will be higher energy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: This stuff takes a lot out of me. You know, my social battery runs low. And, you know, there's a certain stress too. I'm not, I'm not good at remembering names, which is a fatal flaw for me and my development as a salesperson.

Speaker A: Do you think it's age or just it's genetic?

Speaker B: No, I've never been good at it. I think, I think you're either good. I think you're either good at it or not good at it.

Speaker A: And so what's your strategies? Because sometimes I just don't introduce people. And that's even more awkward because I can't remember their names. I do it all the time. Terrible. What was your. And you can't say what was your name again? Someone who you've met a hundred times. It's so rude.

Speaker B: Well, I don't know.

Speaker A: It's the line, remind me your name or I'm really bad with names. What do you say? I don't know.

Speaker B: I dance, I dance around it. I don't know. But, uh, I think, I don't like when people do the nice to see you. It's a total cop out. It's a coward. Just say, nice to meet you. Because they're like, oh, uh, I'm not sure if I've ever met this person before. And usually I'm just like, hey, nice, nice to meet you. And they're like, oh, we met. Like, so I was like, oh, yeah, of course, man. How are you? You know, But I don't know. I mean, I, I, I, I meet like tons of tons and tons, tons of people. You're either good at that or not good at that. I don't think it's a. It's not a moral blemish. I've. I just don't think it is.

Speaker A: Well, the episode wouldn't be complete without a little tiny update on PVA notes.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, yeah.

Speaker A: Which, you know, which is something, Brian, that I, that I have done while you've been away. I've been working on it and I've made the texting interface much more conversational and helpful, I would say so that if you text something in and you don't know exactly what's happening, there's a, uh, there's a little helper that'll help you through it because it really is just. Someone called it the other day Tumblr with SMS content management, which I thought was kind of apartment I've, I've done a lot of work to manage the users, so built out the admin structure and in other news, someone wants to take it and create a second community. And so I'm trying to harden it a little bit so that we can, you know, turn it into a multi community solution.

Speaker B: Oh, really? Who's this person? Is it Calvin?

Speaker A: No, I can't talk about.

Speaker B: Is he going to make a headhunter community?

Speaker A: That'd be cool. It would even be cooler as it's a place where you could go get, get a job so we match. You know, you represent yourself as a seller of, you know, human resource.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, I want to use. I would like to white label it for the rebooting.

Speaker A: Well, I think that we should talk about that because there's a lot of overlap in the two communities and we have to figure out if there's like, you know, the sort of gnarly B2B ad, uh, tech side, which is different from the gnarly.

Speaker B: Oh, by the way, there was complain about you.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: It was, it was received.

Speaker A: I'm glad you, you brought it up.

Speaker B: It was received by email. I had it up on my screen. I'm sorry, I forgot to. I forgot to bring it up. I'm going to protect the names. The name.

Speaker A: No, no, share it with me. Share it with the audience.

Speaker B: I. Am I going to protect the name of this person? Big fan of the rebooting and pba, in that order. This person runs an independent magazine. I'll just say, uh, and said my only PVA complaint is when Troy is dismissive of PVA of indie magazines. I think he called them souvenir. Magazines in scare quotes on the show. Does Troy not realize how he and everyone at Hearst and Conde, et cetera, inspired the indie mag boom? He's not quite spitting on its offspring, but close.

Speaker A: So I'm sorry, they're out.

Speaker B: There's people out there pursuing Brian.

Speaker A: Brian, if you don't piss anybody off, you're not doing anything right? And I will say to this person, listen, I love them, um, indie mag. It's great. It's great. They're on, you know, they're on my coffee table, but I don't read them.

Speaker B: And it's not. That's.

Speaker A: And they're not a. A kind of advertising. Meaningful advertising kind of device for anybody. They're great for, you know, positional advertisers that want to say they're in the right environment, but, you know, so make your magazine, brother, sister, whatever you are, make your magazine. Do it. Make some money. It's perfect if people buy it for 19 bucks. Awesome, right? It's just people don't get their information that way anymore. And I don't think that's super controversial, but I love your magazine.

Speaker B: I was talking with someone last night who used to work for you. What's it like to work for Troy?

Speaker C: I'm, um.

Speaker B: Like, I don't even work for him. It's intense. That's what I said. And this person said, you know, what I really like about Troy is when he makes a decision to go in a direction, he goes really hard into it.

Speaker A: No, you know what they should, like, I'll tell you, because I'm, um.

Speaker B: Is that true? Is that an accurate. Sure.

Speaker A: I mean, I think mostly I'm. I'm very imperfect, as you know. But the. But here's the thing. When I do it, I power overs. But, yeah, I care. I care about it. I cared about Hearst. I cared about it being, you know, vital for, you know, another hundred years. Lots of people don't care. I care about the products. That's what I. That's what I like about it. Anyway, good to see you, Brian.

Speaker B: Good to see you. Bye.

Speaker A: That's it for this episode of People versus Algorithms, where each week we uncover pattern shaping and media culture and technology. Big thanks as always to our producer, Vanya Arsenov. She always makes us a little clearer and more understandable, and we appreciate her very, very much. If you're enjoying these conversations, we'd love for you to leave us a review. It helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. Remember, you can find People vs Algorithms on Apple Podcasts on Spotify and now on YouTube. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you again next week. I'll go.