Creating Hits w/ Mark Shekter

Speaker A: Hello, ladies and gentlemen. I am o' brien mcmahon and this is people business. In this episode, I am joined by Mark Schechter. With a rich background as a Hollywood writer, producer and composer, and having worked with Steve Martin, Jim Carrey, Elton John, and countless other really high profile creators and performers, Mark has pioneered an entirely new system of creative thinking, Think eight, that empowers leaders to reshape their corporate cultures for unlimited innovation and growth. Anyone who's listened to this show for any amount of time knows that I am a sucker for creativity and creation. I love that as a concept. And I think in Mark's book, Think eight, eight steps to ignite your creative genius in business, career and life, he has laid out a really strong framework. It is a super simple framework, but if followed in order, it can be really powerful for anyone trying to create anything. And that could be creating a life for yourself. It could be setting direction for where you're going. It could be building a business. It could be creating a work of art, a painting, a, uh, podcast. It could be anything. Anyone who is trying to create something, to bring something into life, to build something, can benefit from this conversation. We go really deep in the beginning on how to set the foundation, and then we don't get as much into the execution, although the execution is covered in the book and I recommend that people buy it. It's short, super easy to get through, and there's a lot of really good examples kind of across business, culture and art on how people have used this even just to solve basic problems. Like how do I get more out of my financial advisor than I've been getting in the past? So really applicable framework. Really excited to share with you. As you'll see, we had a lot of fun talking about this conversation. Here is Mark Schechter. Mark, welcome to the show. I'm excited you've hit on two things with your book Think eight that I enjoy and sort of nerd out about. One is creativity and one is a, uh, good framework. So I'm a, I'm a sucker for a good framework, especially if it's a framework around how to be more creative. So you, you had me at frameworks and creativity.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: Um, I'm excited for this. I want to just kind of dive right in. We had a little audio glitch, so we'll just cut right to it and let's start out. What in your mind or what is your definition for creativity?

Speaker B: Well, you know, working in the creative industries, obviously with the Hollywood background, and then, you know, moving into you know, advising and consulting to, uh, careers and companies and so on. Creatively, ideas abound. It was never a question of. And people have amazing ideas. I've been in cabs in Vegas and people were pitching me operas. It's like everybody's got something and it's not even a cliche, it's amazing. But where I drew the line was creativity. The way I define it is the ability to actually execute an idea, get it done. That's genius to me. So somebody wants to bake a cake and they do a cake and I go, extraordinary. So it really was the done. And so when I talk about it or teach it and so on, you see these looks on these writers and they're going, but I have a great script. And I go get it made. Now I can appreciate and certainly in myself and others, the ability to create a script or a, a business or whatever, but the execution of it is the, is the make break.

Speaker A: Interesting. So your definition is not simply being a, uh, font of ideas. It is, it's the execution of ideas. Make somebody a creative person.

Speaker B: Well, they're creative. But the way the bar that I put there is. Got it, uh, that really is that extra, really niche that really differentiates it and so on. But I don't discount the great ideas. Don't get me wrong. It's just I really put the bar high and I do that in my work for myself and for others. Yeah, it does work well.

Speaker A: And I want to talk about both of those because I think the Think eight method that you've laid out is a combination of those two things. Right. There's a structure to it, uh, to help people take action. But then there's also steps along the way to inspire pure creativity and variety of thought. Is that fair to say?

Speaker B: Absolutely. The origin of the idea in terms of the think a process is no less important. But the process itself that I developed is about formulating a strategy, a tactical way to how to get it done. So it's one thing to get excited and motivated, inspired. Now you need a blueprint. How do you move it from the idea to the actual thing itself? The realization, the actualization. So my attention was on both parts. One, to enable that creative thrust and then to be able to actually put it through to a completion. Yeah.

Speaker A: So before we lose anybody to like, uh, yeah, I'm a business minded, no BS person, I, you know, I don't have time for creativity podcast. Give me your pitch for the value of creativity in the workplace.

Speaker B: Well, I'll start with statistics.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Not in my opinion, the most valued capacity for any executive leader manager these days is their ability to think it differently, their creativity. Companies need that spark and creativity and innovation. And. And again, by statistics and other experts talk about innovation being a continuum. So how do you keep a business or a career moving? So to the executives, and I don't run into the question, it's interesting you ask people, sort of skeptical about it, they go, if I could be smarter, oh, please make me smarter. All right, so unlike, um, companies or systems that start with what somebody is making or how they're doing it, or even why they're doing it, we start with the individual's capacity, the who. And that's the beginning. And that was sort of a turning point in the research that I realized is you can put ideas out there, but it's one's capacity for invention. And how do you stimulate that and how do you take that through? So creativity to me is a universal baseline. Frankly, anything viewing everybody as creative, everybody. And in the book, and my book that you read and so on, I talk about kids. And I mean people, we look at kids and their imagination knocks us out. They just think they're designing and playing parts and everything. When they get older, sometimes they lose that spark. Or they. Or somebody classic. They're playing the piano. Somebody says, you're not that good. They stopped playing the piano. I had one client who stopped playing 25 years ago. We did some work. Now they're playing the piano now on, uh, concert stage. Why did they. Yeah, why did they stop? Somebody said they couldn't, they shouldn't, whatever. But I think, you know, we're getting down to where the philosophically that you can't do anything but create. And I look at create as like, okay, I, uh, go into a restaurant. What they do and how they prepare their food. No different than any business. I had an uncle who was a taxi driver. He created this is before Uber and everything like that. He created. He created this incredible environment. Like people wanted his taxi because of the conversations that he had. So it was an experience being in his cab. He was creating that environment. So I really looked at creativity early on in Hollywood, and I really got passionate about how do you turn the juice on and how do people make it and others don't make it and what's the differential and so on. That got me inspired to think about this subject quite seriously.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I guess that's a good intro into the method itself. Like, how did you're doing that work? You're looking at this like how did the method that you created start falling into place?

Speaker B: Well, I was fortunate enough, uh, at a very early age, early 20s, to be called Hollywood. I was writing in Canada and I was doing quite well and uh, somebody heard about me and agents were flying up and all that kind of wonderful stuff you read about. But it's true occasionally. And I got called down and uh, started writing network tv and I was feeling really good about it and I went to my agent at William Morris at the time and I said, Elliot, I want to keep this street going. I mean, tell me, you know, guru agent of the stars. I mean, you know, how do I keep the. He said, it was very simple, uh, as a writer, Mark. He said, just write me a hit. And I said, elliot, that is the dumbest. I mean, let me write it. He said, that's your job, man. That's why you're there. Right? Me a hit. So I thought about it and then I thought, well, what makes a hit? So I went and did some research and I started to look at what makes a successful album and movie and all of the show business related items. And I isolated eight things that seem common that for some reason or other kind of just came. It was deductive. You know, they had this and they had that and so on, and they had structure and they had some good character development. Da, da da. And I found there was eight points and I said, well, I'm going to test it out. So I did and my stats went up. My sales rate was like 70 or 80%, which is really high. Yeah, it's like way over the. And so writers and producers and people were going, who's the kid? Because I was still a kid. They're going, so they come over to my house and I give them a breakfast and we. And I'd say, well, here's what I'm doing and you know, lots of luck, bye bye. And they would go out and they'd say, I just sold a book and I just got a series. And I got, I went, cool, right, well, these eight points. Then realizing that there was something common to it, I started being approached by PR companies and creative related type companies and said, could you come and advise? You got the chops, you're highly credited. So give me some think in our business. And I do a little instruct. And they would say, well, what did you do there? And I said, well, da, da, uh, da. So it migrated just from show business to business where executives and people started to go, how do I solve things if I have a problem? You Know, where do I turn to? There's so many books out there and so many lectures and systems and just, you know, all these consulting agencies of huge companies that do this. And I said, well, I have eight, you know, steps here and you might want to try it because there's a thing about them in a certain sequence which we can get into, I guess. And they went, hey, you know, we just raised our numbers and this and that. So it grew organically that I'd come across something that seemed to work for show business and scripts, which is what it was intended originally, but it moved into another area entirely and it just sustained and it became a thing I'm very grateful for. But it, it was always based on how do I, in the early days, help, uh, somebody do better? That was my impulse. I had friends who were so talented and they couldn't turn it over successfully. I was always very interested. So it really applied. I went back to my friends, they became, I would say, proteges and stuff. And they went on and did incredible upselling albums and everything else. And I went, that's really cool. I'm the motivation. But it really was a deductive process of eight. Why eight? Could have been nine, could have been three, but eight. And that's lasted and continued to really expand over the years to other sort of derivatives of those eight.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, as I was reading was clear that, like, this is a process for putting things together. If you're trying to put something together. I'm trying to put a song together, I'm trying to put a book together, I'm trying to put a story together or a pitch together or a business together. Like, if you have an idea that you're trying to create, I think the process holds. And so what are the eight steps of the process? We'll just, uh, hit them high level and then we'll kind of get a bunch of questions.

Speaker B: No, indeed. So, well, um, there are eight points. And what is important is that it's a scale because I eventually called it the eight step scale. It's actually a trademark thing now because it's become a thing, you know, it's, I guess, patented in the way they do the. Yeah, but it starts. And we can go into more detail, but just to outline, it starts with one's intention, one's purpose for doing something. When I use the word purpose, I don't mean I want to write a good script. It's really, what is it about writing or what is it about as an executive? What is it about any business that Moves you to even want to make a car or be a chef or deeply personal, very aligned with your own core thing. And people say, I want to find my purpose. We actually have a way of helping someone do that. But it, what it does, and with the breakthrough of the, uh, research for me, was when you find that it turns things on, like for a writer to understand, not just to write a great script, but what is it that is motivating them to be a writer, to bring that story to life. They get more ideas. So there was a relationship with hitting the purpose, your core purpose for the activity you're doing that is very resonant. And what turns on the story starts to write itself. That's true for executives as well, when we deal with those people. I'll come back to that. Next was what do you stand for? What are your basic principles? How do you. Your message? What are you trying to say with your work? What are you trying to say with your podcast core? What are you trying to say? When a person develops a beautiful recipe and shares it with the world, There is a thought behind that. Next would be, how do you want people? It's called tone. Third point. What is it that you, how do you want people to feel emotionally? What's the resonance when they talk to you, when they read about you, when you relate in a relationship? The next point below toes you got purpose and message and tone. At least by the way, I found if you don't address the ones earlier, the ones below it aren't aligned and it's less effective. The next point is character. What's your worldview? I know you have a purpose and I know you know, blah, blah, you want to, you, you were bringing something to the world and you want people to feel a certain way about you and how you present. But when you round it out by looking at your worldview, your values, your, your principles, your belief systems, or, and these top four are you. And that's where executives and writers maybe go, what have I got to do with it? And I go, you know, exactly. We're going to start with you, because that's you, Ben. And then the next four have to do with the thing itself, content, what it is you're making, structure, how you're doing it, delivering it, designing it, et cetera, uh, style, how do you represent it, brand it, call it, present it, pitch it, whatever it be. And the last thing is, what does it all add up to? The last point is impact. What is it that you intend to as a result? Not just financial, but influence and reputation and societal impact and so on. When you have these things discussed in that sequence and work through knowing where you're starting and looking at the end result of all of that creation in whatever field and name it and go for it, it's profound and it's stable because it anchors the project and it gives it form. And we call the sum of all of that a dynamic blueprint. It is the way forward. It's not only motivational and inspirational for you and others that resonate, but you know how to do it. So that's where the tone comes in.

Speaker A: All right, so we've got purpose, message, tone, character, content, structure, style and impact.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Let's go back to purpose, because I have asked this question on here before, and I've. It's something that I continue to wrestle with in my own work, and I work with a coach, and we go through this too, but find your purpose is such a daunting thing to say to somebody. And to think that everybody only has one purpose in their life and that they can distill their life down into one sentence or purpose is like, um, some people can, and I have a bunch of respect for those people, and I am sort of in awe by them. But a lot of us can't. A lot of us have a lot of things we want to accomplish. We have several purposes. We want to sort of live out at the same time. So help me wrestle purpose to the ground.

Speaker B: Well, you know, you're touching on sort of the. The nerve center of life, maybe, because, uh. And it's true, people go, I don't think I have one, you know. Well, they do. But you see, what happens is that people often equate. Not often, almost always. And, uh, I'll say it. They. They look at purposes, the thing they're making, like their output. They're going, oh, I'm a doctor. I heal. I'm going to make people well. Correct. Or I'm a inventor, and my purpose is to, you know, the thing. I'm focused on the thing. But we go earlier than that and go, what is it about invention? What is it about writing? What is it about being a chef? What is it about the medical profession? People often say, I want to help people. So the way our system works, the way the Think eight approach is, is one. We do believe that everybody has a fundamental purpose. Not because we just believe it. Well, there's a lot of philosophy about it, but there's something about it at its core, to an individual, that is beyond what they're making and when you find that core, it's like an umbrella over a business. Like you can have a business core like General Foods, but beyond it, you have many different product food products, but you're about. Or the Johnson family, the family business, family products. So there's something that holds it, uh, an envelope. And so when you say people have many purposes, yes, they can be derivative of something that is really prime. And so the work we do and we use often stickies, you know, and whatever, and we have a way of processing it, which is our kind of proprietary way of working and looking at patterns. But what it comes down to, and without exception, people that come and go, I've been at it, I have a co. We commonly everybody has coaches and God knows and psychologists and even deeper. And they're trying to fight because they know the power of it. But the beauty of it, it's sitting there, it's resonant and it's profound. It isn't like, I want to help, I want to educate, I want to. We go as an example. This isn't the process, but it's an example. What is it about education? What is it about? We just go more primary. And the conversation is not a normal conversation they have where people go, oh, you want to help? How wonderful. How do you want to help? An example, the senior director of MIT who was dealing with, you know, they select, uh, company from all over the world to be in their incubation. They've been doing it for many years. He came to one of my workshops. And the workshop was about the personal purpose versus the product purpose. When people say, start with why, it's often the product. Why are you making EV car? Oh, because it'll save gas and so on. Where we go is, why would you even be interested in EV technology? And when this gentleman who'd been there 30 years as their senior guy, saying, because I distinguished it and I had a process to look at a purpose, why, for example, I said, okay, give me an invention or something in a, uh, let's say it was, um, um, a robot kitchen, right. And so the product y would be, oh, it facilitates, um, you know, home preparation of food and it's efficient and people can come and go and whatever. And when you got into the personal, why a person would create that. And we actually did this in a university testing on this. And what came out from this was it's a way for the family to be together without having all the prep. They could actually sit down together. And it was a family cohesion reason for building A robot kitchen. Not efficiency, but failure. And you. Yeah. Wow. And he said that when this one workshop for him is an example of purpose, personal purpose versus a product purpose, he said it unstuck something that he'd been trying to teach not only himself, but for 30 years. Because he said, I don't know why people would start a startup and not stay with it. And of course, their reason for starting it, very commonly they come out of Harvard Business Schools or whatever was they see a gap in the market and they want to fill that gap. They see a problem to solve. This is common in business schools because we teach MBA students around the world. So we, we're familiar with this. And one for one, they go, oh, purpose of business. Find a hole, fill it, fill it. Find opportunity, fill it. And then I asked them, and I always do, and they come from all over the world and I go, why are you interested in home products? Um, because I see that, you know, it could be better and Tupperware and this and that. And I go, but what is it about home products? And you pull it back, it's a whole different answer. And they light up and they go, oh, my goodness. And what happens? And was even written up in Wired magazine. And so on a guy who had been at it for years on the filling the gap pain point theory, as opposed you know, fill that up, solve it. He said, I realized after some success, but mostly failures, when I realized what I want to do with my life, what is it that motivates me? He then made his fortune and he went, because I stayed with it. And, uh, the biggest reason for people not staying with it was not money, because people say, oh, they run out of capital. He said, they're not so motivated that they don't stay with it. So a guy like Dyson does a thousands of prototypes on his vacuum cleaner. Yeah, come on. Right? Thousand.

Speaker A: Yeah. Somebody else is doing three. And then giving up.

Speaker B: Very personal thing. But the power of lights up. It does so many other things. Like it brings all the inventory of your experience to bear because suddenly all the dots join. Steve Jobs gave his very Stanford address for. He talked about joining dots and so on. It was a wonderful addressed a graduating class. And what he was trying to say, what I realized later and what finding your purpose does is it brings all of your experiences. They're all moving somewhere, they're all accessible to you. And when you find that channel and it is quite singular, it can have derivatives, but in my experience it is quite singular and it's stable. But there can be so many offshoots. You can wanna heal people and you can set up a clinic. You can do this, you can do that, you. But it's still coming from a core.

Speaker A: So let me, let me ask you then, because this is a good segue into this question which I was going to ask you, okay, what you've done this work, what is your purpose? If you're willing to share, and I would be curious, not just like, what is your purpose, but you've been a writer, you've been a composer, a producer, you're now a coach and you run business seminars like you have a widely varied background. So I would love to hear for you. How do you figure out what your purpose is? And then how does that tie into all the things you do? Like, how have you used it to make sure that all these varied things are still authentic to you? I think that would be a really interesting example.

Speaker B: Great question. Pretty magical question. I think one was, obviously I realized early on I was very creative and I was exploring all of this and doing it, and it was very successful. I was grateful for that. You know, it was never took that for granted. I thought I'm very blessed to be able to do the writing. And I was sort of a triple threat, I guess, comedy, music, drama kind of thing. But the core of it was creativity. And I was having success. I was doing children's shows, I was doing adult shows, I was writing comedy and I was making people laugh. And even in my music early on, which I started music, that's where it all began. I noticed that it affected people. I could write a song, they would feel good. I could write a song, they would be touched by something. This is the folk singing or rock and roll. Didn't matter. I always had a band, you know, who didn't, I guess out there, rock starish thing. And I realized that, um, you know, I could affect people in various ways because entertainment, laughing, joy, lightning of things. At the same time, while I was doing that, I was also mentoring people in writing and so on. Uh, and I found that I. Because I could help execute. I was really interested in their growth. I was all star athlete and I would coach on the side and all of that. It was always this core of just like. Or somebody would sit down and go, I have a problem, Mark. And I, I'd suddenly be the confidant. And I go, well, let's talk about that. I mean, this was just friend to friend, whatever. What I realized was that I really loved deeply helping people. Just tell people you do the same Here, look what you're doing. Right. You just feel that you don't have to be doing, but you are. And you do it very well. And I went, there's something about it. So where it became and where I landed was it really is in the purpose of Think eight. And it's beyond coaching. We consult and train. I, um, hand coach. But it's really a deeper thing than that. It was to enable those who enable others. It was about enabling, working with people in the arts first, a, uh, performer who'd be high end perform saying they could do something else. You could expand your. You never sang. I could make you sing. You were doing stand up. I could get you in the sitcom, you know. So it was starting there where I went. Had you thought of. I mean it was almost as instant as like there's a story about Ray Charles in the book and stuff where, you know, I wanted people to know he could see, you know, I mean, crazy, right? Yeah. But then it went into business where you deal with executives with a good intention or companies doing well. And that is my baseline and enabling them to do it. So the thinking system was my way of bringing my experience there to help them do whatever they wanted to do, do it better.

Speaker A: How does that translate back to the writing and creating piece? Because I get the. I get how that aligns with the work you've done lately. How does that align back to the creative work and the output and the things you like to do in that sense?

Speaker B: Well, on a very practical baseline level, I can help them form their communication strategies and brand them. So in other. Once they get it, I know how to help them message it.

Speaker A: Uh, and is that similar to like when you were working with a Ray Charles or you were working with Elton John or Jim Carrey or somebody like that? Like, is it like you've kind of always been in a service capacity, even as a creator? Is it fair to read into that that what lit you up was creating something that made somebody else shine?

Speaker B: Always. It was just my default and it wasn't constructed that way. And I would listen. First of all, I have to say, and I think it's kind of baseline for me and I feel it from you. That's why we have these wonderful talks. There is that I'm in awe of people and they're. I, uh, really and genuinely am I a person in business, an artist? I go, wow. So there's no ego about it. Yeah. But what I. Where the creativity comes in is that my thinking process when I'm guiding people through an eight step system. My. It isn't a passive experience. It isn't like here's the thing. And whatever my creativity is baseline, helps them see something. They're presenting a ah, template or a, a structure of something. And I'll go bing. Because my, my mind is like, you know, it'd be really amazing, you know. And then um, so I've always had that capacity. So at core my engine is creativity.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: However applied, it doesn't stop at the writing or the composing though I can sit down and write. I've done musicals, grand scale, symphonic stuff. I mean I can do that. And when necessary, for example people have said can you write, um, we're doing a thing and can you write the score for a movie? Yes. Or I have a company and I need to get a proper M. You know, design, whatever. We can work with designers and so it's always there as a facility or something in addition. But what I'm interested in is them recognizing their genius, their capacity to go beyond what they thought they could do, which was really the pattern. If you look at the thread, it's like, did you know you had you ever thought of. In so many words.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So creative capacity. I don't think people are limited. A, uh, creative writer doesn't mean he or she can't create in any area.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You've created the podcast. So the crossover is very fluid for me and the desire. My wife and I, when we built this company, Nancy tried Spotkin is her name and she's also a very successful author as well and an Emmy winning writer. And really we, you know, we have that commonality. We really realize that what we do is really working with people who have the capacity to do great things and they can be financially rewarded to the extreme. I mean we've been very fortunate ourselves and we've been fortunate to have people make a hell of a lot of money and. But doing the good things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: All upfront, all clean in show business franchise that have made mega dollars. We worked on Avatar helping them in terms of franchise while they were moving before the second movie came out, trying to move it into media and video games and things like that. Called the Sweden to do that. So we work at that level. We can also work with a Fortune 500 company into the billions and stuff. And then we can work with startups and have launched hundreds of those. Um, and the commonality, while I feel blessed that I can do this, is what do you want to do? Hey. And it's this kind of like, yeah,

Speaker A: it still comes down to an individual's totally.

Speaker B: It's the who. That's the engine. And those where we start. And the beautiful part about it, by feedback was that what we do enables somebody to own what they do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's not like, here's the. We've done an analysis. Here's the program. We'll monitor it, which is not uncommon. What we hear from people who've come to our workshops and been. They say, you know, unlike all the big top five and whatever, you actually get us to own it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: To solve it. And then. Then it works.

Speaker A: It's the Huckleberry Finn method where you get the other kids to paint the fence. You get it, do the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: So I got an idea.

Speaker B: You paint the fence. Yeah.

Speaker A: And then. Well, and then they all wanted to do it and they paid. They paid him to paint the fence. One last question on purpose. And I know we're spending maybe too much time on purpose. Yeah. And. And I think people struggle with it. I know I do. I heard Gary Vaynerchuk, if you know that name, say one time that what gets in a lot of people's way is they feel like they have to be number one, when in reality, so many people who feel that way would be so much more successful and happier if they acknowledged that what they really want is to be a strong number two. And I hear you saying, like, I love supporting other people. And you've worked with a who's who of celebrity talent. You worked on a what's what of franchises. You just name dropped avatar. Like, what I hear you saying, though, because you talk about checking ego is you don't have to be the person in none of those situations are you getting the credit or the kudos. And I'm curious for people who are struggling with that. Uh, like, yeah, but. But I want to be the guy or I want to be the woman. I want to be. Uh, I want some recognition here. Isn't this what we're all. Aren't we supposed to aspire to be the CEO? Aren't we supposed to aspire to be the lead singer in the rock band? Like, I don't want to be the one who just, like, writes the music and goes off. Like, how do you help people through that ego check of, like, what do you actually want to be? And it's okay to be what you actually want to be.

Speaker B: It's a really insightful question. So let me try to be insightful back. I think, um, I've never been asked that one. So who are feeling. Because that's a marvelous question.

Speaker A: Score one for me.

Speaker B: But I think about it, since you ventured it, it does come to mind. And my wife is, I would say, and others, beautiful woman. And she was a model at one time. I mean, she could have been star. I mean, she had that. And she had no interest. She wanted to be behind the scenes. She wanted to do what I love to do. And I thought about it, because watching those people do what you're doing, you'd go, God, look at the talent of the Elton John. They can sit there and play and so on and so forth. Yes, it's. It's sexy and it's appealing and so on. But when you hit, I can only say from my experience, when you kind of land with yourself, that's enough. And suddenly you see all of these things, like being number one and being the best. Great expression. Great, um, is the enemy of good. With that kind of stuff, it just becomes less important. It's a false goal. It sounds really attractive. And you see, there's all their perks to it, but it doesn't guarantee happiness. And happiness seems to be very high in people's mind. They want to be happy in life, but it's not a guarantee of happiness. And I don't think it's a cliche to say that. I think it's true. I found it to be true. We've met with very wealthy people, no guarantee of happiness. And I felt we people that are fringe actors doing theater, living in an attic, and they're thrilled. True stories. I mean, yeah, I believe that. And writers, uh, are just buskers and people. And we stop when we talk to them and they're just like doing music that's magical. Where mine goes is, boy, could I ever launch them. I mean, there's the impulse. Right. But sometimes they're happy just doing what they're doing. Right. Yeah. So I think when you find it inside, things calm down. And then what's important is a true purpose, is an intention to help, to offer. Because I have a, ah, saying. And it's, it's also trademarked now because people tend to, uh, want to trademark these things for me, they go, your true worth valued. An individual who knows his or her worth deeply and has other people certainly themselves, but others also recognize it is my definition of life and business and relationship. Because when you understand what you can offer and then do it and work to make that possible. And I don't mean to be airy fairy about it, I mean, this is a tangible experience. Yeah. You come away with the riches of riches, and it also can generate a livelihood.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's not like you. It's. I don't know, the envy, though, like, wish I could, uh, for myself. Yeah, I was. You know, it's kind of like Next to Fame, that wonderful documentary, 20ft from Stardom. You ever see that thing?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Singers?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Oh, it's brilliant. It's brilliant.

Speaker A: 20ft from stardom. I'll have to check that out.

Speaker B: I think it's 20ft from start. It's like all these backup singers were backed up, all these celebrity number ones, and they were brilliant singers, but they were not forerunner. But some were thrilled, others wish they. So your question is really powerful because being number one, but the CEOs they work with, who are exceptional, the performers who are exceptional, did not start off to try to be number one. I wrote for Leonard Cohen. Leonard Cohen, very inspiring gentleman. And he had just come back from Greece and he wanted to launch himself in the US he'd been away on a bit of a sabbatical. And he said, you know, I have my music, but I think it's time to kind of come back. And he was looking for somebody who understood his work and his music and new television and interviewed a bunch of people. We met at the Delhi Classic, right over a smoked meat sandwich Classic. And I said to him, leonard, you wanted to be a coet. I. I mean, uh, why would you choose to be a, uh, poet? There's no money in it. And he went, I had no choice.

Speaker A: Meaning, this is who I am.

Speaker B: I was cold. And one of the indicators when people hit their purpose, and I felt it when I was early on writing and creating and composing and things, I couldn't do anything else. Even though I went to law school, you know, I had to do this. It wasn't like, am I going to make it? Am I going to be number one? You know? No. Am I going to make a living? No. I left law school to go and write 100 bucks a week. Not exactly a fortune. Yeah. My parents went, oh, boy. You know, uh. But you're called to it. It's really interesting. There's an expression. Um. What is it? And, um. Oh, something like inspiration, uh, or something pushes you. Motivation and purpose holds you.

Speaker A: Holds you. Yeah.

Speaker B: Because you feel that, you know, this is something you need to do and it's amazing. Then you're unstoppable. Yeah. Because no matter the ups and down, so the number one doesn't isn't the ticket. And when people are pushing to Be. We've worked with stars, and people want to be who I'm going to be on series. I want to hit this and I want to hit that. And then they realize why, you know, like, you know, what is that about? Is that a guarantee of anything? And then they find something and they go, you know, I really love this so much more. I'm. Anyway, it's a really interesting question.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Not that they're incompatible. You could be number one and love it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, let's. All right, so we unpack that thoroughly. And I know there's always more you can go. But back to your earlier point of, like, your bar for creativity is actually putting this into action. So once we get this, we actually have to activate it. We have to do something about it.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: How do we take that and figure out what message we want to share? How do we turn that into a message for others or that's going to

Speaker B: go out into the world when you know your purpose. Right. And it's knowable, by the way. It's normal and various people, whatever. And I know it seems to be a thing and it's very common and stuff. Uh, we've been doing this for years and years and years because it just made sense. And I had. In the book, it explains where I realized that people can sit around forever and ever and ever and never solve a problem because they even don't know why they're sitting there to solve. What are they trying to solve. It's really practical stuff. But the message, when you understand it, you do stand for something. Everybody has a core operating belief or principle. If you're a doctor, good example. And I don't know if I mentioned the book, but there's two doctors. One's a surgeon and one's an osteopath or a naturopath, whatever. Both professionals. And one says, you say, well, what's your purpose? And the person says, health is abstraction. I take out the disease part. He'll tell you this. We've had these conversations. I've researched this, right. You talk to the osteopath, naturopath, and you go, what it is? He says, it's preventive. Health is preventive. So you don't have to have things pulled out so what they stand for. The surgeon says, I take out the disease things, and I'm motivated to do that. And people are ill, I have to extract. I'm a surgeon. I'm. The other guy goes, you don't even need to go there if you live. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the message is, the, uh, the purpose can be held.

Speaker B: They both, they believe their core fundamental thing. You have one, you might have several, but you have a certain operating truth. You've talked to a stockbroker and I have. I did a series on, um, thing called Traders, quite a successful series on launch that thing on the stockbroker world. And one literally would say to make money, to help people make money. And the other person's. His message was, we're the engine that fuels society capital. He says every day through these offices, uh, of billions of dollars transact. And he was up, we were up in a skyscraper and he's looking down at the street and he goes, we're the engine that fuels. We're the heart of the system. Pretty high level, huh? Yeah. So purpose, the purpose is there. And the message is that thing that you stand for, it's your baseline and people can find it and when they do it, they're going to. That's my truth. It could be faith, it could be life happens. I mean it could be abstract, but it's solid. And business has it too. You know, like Google said, first do no harm. Right.

Speaker A: Doctors.

Speaker B: Right. You know, in the IP K oath. So you talk about what is your core. You have those things. A business that knows its baseline, like no GMOs, or only honest products or, you know, health through cleanliness, or there it is. And then you can use it to brand and to message and whatever. But. And how that's translated, it's up to pros, but you live by a certain code.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, it's your tagline, whether your personal tagline or your business tagline or the tagline for the message and your creative piece. Yeah. It's got to be based on the purpose.

Speaker B: That's where the sequence starts coming in. Because the purpose is clear. You can follow and go, well, what is. Where do I stand? Like, okay, I love to do.

Speaker A: But yeah, well. And that's where you see taglines fall apart, is they're creating taglines for taglines. Okay. What's the tagline that's going to get customers? Well, it's going to be hollow if it's not built on a foundation and the foundation is a authentic purpose.

Speaker B: Let me ask you, since you're asking me the questions, if I may ask you, what is your message? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to say with this? Kind of.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I have a lot of journaling ahead of me with this book. Um, I have not gotten into it yet, but as I'm thinking about it like one of my core purposes, because I have a document, the coach I work with is all about build your worldview. So what are your beliefs? Build your identities, Build your principles, Build your purposes. And so I've got a document, it's like 20 pages long with all that stuff. So I have done some of this work, and one of the purposes I keep coming back to is I'm a rising tide that lifts all boats. Like, I want individual success, but I also want everyone around me to be successful at the same time. And I think the message that that would translate into is, I believe you can do well by doing good.

Speaker B: Beautiful.

Speaker A: Like, I just. I think you can be a good person and also kick ass.

Speaker B: I totally subscribe to that. Yeah. I, uh. Absolutely. And I've used those expressions. It's funny because I would say do well by doing good. We just m. Two weeks ago, we were talking about something like that. That's as clean and simple and magical as that is, is actually the real ticket.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because they're not incompatible. Right. People go, oh, that's nice. But this guy's a trillionaire. So, yeah, okay, great. But what's his day to day? Dig in. But they don't even dig in. Like, okay, great. Can you have Being you and the Rising. Um, I love that. I think that's a beautiful expression. I think you can even go deeper with that. Because I would ask you other questions, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Don't get me wrong. That's. That is fabulous. So right there, that sets in motion, from our scale viewpoint, all the other things that would then follow. Hence this kind of thing. Books you might do. Movies or documentaries, you might want to go. But with that core, you can see how. Because you're starting with you, obviously. And then how do you now extend that? If that be the case? How is it manifest?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the content, everything is a manifestation of all of that stuff.

Speaker A: So, uh, let's flip over to tone then. And I know we spent a lot of time early, so we're going to rush these last ones, but, uh, tone, to me seems like the start of maybe experimentation. So I think there's a lot of reflection that goes into purpose and message and probably a lot of journaling and rinsing and all that. Tone, to me, is where maybe experimentation starts to kick in. Like, can. And you can take one song and you can put different tone to it, and the message is entirely different. Like, the whole. It resonates in a totally different way. So as we're Thinking about, like, building businesses or building ourselves. How do we find the right tone?

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting. That tone was the last piece that I put in because I had set.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And I went, there's something missing here. So here's the thing about tone. Purpose and message are very internal. Tone is the first outward expression of that. Yeah. So if you've got that straight, you don't have to make up tone. Where tone gets experimental is when you haven't figured out those top two, and you turn it over to prose and go, go brand me, Go create it, because I need to communicate who I am. And so the advertising agencies and, um, we've worked with these because they need to do better. They want to do better. And what they find is that the company, when they say, go do it, the company hasn't figured out, really, at core, who they are. So they're left trying to figure out who they are. And you get conversations like, why did you do the letters in blue? We feel green might be more us, and blue, they burn through all of the money that they get from the company. So what happened is we've been put at the head of some of these PR companies, high NPR companies, as the first step, which we. They would say, this is your first step because we need the brief. So we go in and do the blueprint, the scale that you've read about, and we get the company to understand who they are and what they can be. And within that brief is the tonality that is authentic to who they are now. And they've all signed off because the A step also is a consensus builder. That's one of his strengths. So now it goes over to the PR company and they go, I get it. Imagine politicians are classic, right? And I can say to you, I can have maybe a whole. Let's put it this way. I, uh, have a solution to solve the economy. And I come out and I say, hi, um, things are not looking really good, but I can make it better. Okay, There's a tone. It belied what was going on. Another guy comes out and goes, things are thick. But, hey, we can solve it together. We can. And it can be the same words, but it lifts. Yeah. Conversely, you can have no substance on the purpose of it and pitch it and go. You know, it's like, I wonder if

Speaker A: you went back and listened to Obama's speeches without the words, just the, uh. Like, if you could somehow muddle the words, but just hear the tone of it, I would bet it would still be powerful. Like, it would still resonate. He was a master of tone.

Speaker B: Well, one of the things I would recommend for anybody listening, other than if they wish to get the book, it's their option. But I think there's Nine Inch Nails at a song called Hurt. You know the song? Yeah. And you had Johnny Cash sing it. And of course the original sing it. Right. And the way they interpret. Same song. One was drugs and I turn people away and I'm, um, toxic and whatever. And Cash was of a career on Descent.

Speaker A: Yeah. Regret.

Speaker B: Uh, one was pain and one was regret. Same words. If you listen to those two versions, you get the power of tone. It's not the words.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's the way they're doing. So you can be an interviewer and, um, be stern or interested or as you are, open, whatever. Because if you want to lift people, you've got to be real. You're interested in them, not in you and your analytics. Then it's a real conversation. And reading about you, people were remarking that you can have a real conversation. It's not. Sound bites was one of the quotes I got from someone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it was like, actually, you actually have a talk. And I went, oh, how refreshing. Right. A real talk. So. But it, it's. It's that step beyond where you're talking and expressing through words, through language, through written, what you're thinking. And that connection is through the tone. Something you need to own because if you assign it to another person to interpret you, you're going to get. And we see a lot of false or cool, inappropriate, perhaps things for you because it wouldn't reflect. Barbat might be really catchy, but it's not you.

Speaker A: Yeah, well. And you can see, you know, think about Uber and Lyft, right? Like they are doing the same thing. It's almost exactly the same business, but you can feel a slightly different tone between those two organizations. And, and so, like, yeah, I think even in business. I, uh, I want to give one other example because I thought. I think this is another great music example. I think music is the best because maybe like an Uber and Lyft, where they're doing the exact same thing in music, you can take the exact same song. Do you know the song Everybody Wants to Rule the World?

Speaker B: Uh, sing it.

Speaker A: Everybody wants to rule the world. Yeah. So sorry, audience for that one. Um, um, so, so go listen to that song by Tears for Fears, which is the original from the 80s or 90s. And then Lord did another one and I didn't realize for the longest time that it was the same song. It's hard and like, it. It's dark. And like the, The. The earlier one is kind of a light. Like, yeah, everybody wants to rule the way. Everybody wants to be on top. And the Lord one is like, I want to dominate. Like, I want to be the ruler of the world. And then it also was, uh, the ending song for Despicable Me 4, which I have two young kids. So we were watching that, and if you listen, and my kids love the cast version, and it's a. And it's two villains who want to rule the world, but have reconciled singing together on stage at the end of the movie. And it's sort of this collaborative, like, yeah, you know, I guess we did want to rule the world, but, like, look at us now. And it's kind of like a fun thing. And so it's just like those three. It's, uh, the exact same song. And you get a totally different message each time you look at. You get totally different emotions if you hear those three. So anyway, I thought that was a fun example.

Speaker B: No, it's a great example. And tone is so critically important because this is how people respond. This is how companies in their tonality. Um, when you think of a company, you get a feeling, and that feeling is the tonality. And if it's authentic, you feel good about the company. And if it's not quite genuine, you just instinctively feel that they're not really in your best interests. So it's really important. And it went there because as I said, it was the last thing. And I said something about communication. You talk about creativity. The creativity part went and said, yeah, you got this lofty thing. Lofty. This beautiful purpose, and it's message, it's impactful and everything. And then you're going to character. Now wait a minute. There's a bridge. And the bridge is I got these thoughts. I am this person now. I'm going to share how I feel about it. How do you feel about how, uh, I feel about it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if we make the link, we've done it, but I don't assign it to anybody to do for me. And this is the part of the eight step thing that really struck me where I thought it was so workable for me, and then it became so for others was you do own it because it's yours and you haven't assigned responsibility to figure yourself out. And I mean, you can work with somebody to do this, obviously, but you really do it. And why you can execute it is because it's true. Yeah. And you, if it's daunting, the task, you're still up for it because it's you.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I, I, uh, we're almost out of time and I, I want to hit character last and we're not going to get to the, the back four of these, but I think that's okay because I think people over how all

Speaker B: of this manifests through the, how you strategize and tackle well, and I think

Speaker A: that's the part people focus on anyway, which is like, how do we create the content, how do we put structure to it, how do we. How do we figure out what our business is actually going to do, how we're going to structure the work in our teams and, you know, the methods that, the style or methods that we're going to bring to market and then what's the impact we're trying to have like that. That's where most business planning sits. And the first part, I think, is the skipped part where it builds so much power and foundation and authenticity. So let's hit character for just like two minutes, if you wouldn't mind. How should we think about character? How do we think about character when it comes to building a, uh, business or a brand for ourselves?

Speaker B: Well, people tend to think character has to do with the character of the company. The first four are the people running that company. The who? It's them. Those first four are the ones that are never, if rarely attacked. They jump right into what they make. And how do they make it? Could they make it better? How do they digitize it? How do they systematize it? All of that stuff. The first four are all about them. And so character isn't about, oh, it's a nice company. So, uh, it's who these people are. Who's running the show. What do they care about? What are their worldviews? How do they feel about kids? How do they feel about the economy? How do they feel about cultural exchange? How do they feel about workplace, how they. It's their core beliefs. And it rounds out and it authenticates all the steps previous. The three steps previous by example. I had a gentleman from the Belgian Congo Republic, Congo, who came traitor in New York. He came. His father was an ambassador and so on, quite famous. And we looked at his purpose and he said, oh, it is to build orphanages in my home country. Okay. He gets pretty noble, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We get down to character. He gets. He's blushed, his head dips. And I go, what's, um up? And he goes, I don't like kids. I Said, that's a problem. I m said, so where did the purpose come from? And he said, well, my mother on her deathbed said, it's the children. It's the children. What he ended up with when he went back, because there's a classic, uh, it's a checks and balances thing. It went really, you've got this purpose, people. I'm going to save the world. And so. And so. And you get down to character going, you've got to be isolationist. You've got to live by yourself. It really. It's a stop. And it was put there deliberately to say really in so many words, interesting. Back redid that top thing because it was beautiful. And he realized that with his money he could build infrastructure in that country. And the children were deeply part of the infrastructure. So orphanages and caring for those in need was primary because without them and their education in their future there would be no SO infrastructure. It found its place and then it lit up and whatever. So character is the individual or individuals who are sharing values. Now, when you're dealing with a group, as we do with the C suites and things like that, or co founders and whatever, they share their character points because the eight step scale can be done solo, it can be done as a group consensus and build it as you've read. And they realize they share commonality. And the odd time when we've done that step and it's really telling, you find one outlier, but not in the positive sense, somebody who is against the value. So it just sticks out. It suddenly becomes so apparent and those people have been let go, fired. It's sort of inadvertently HR pruning because they see the misalignment in the C suite is pretty powerful. They've seen it many times. And um, when it happens, you go, oh my God. Because all the eyes literally go, what? You don't buy into. Bingo, there it is. That's what the stock was. So it has that ability. But the character is the you. It isn't the company abstract. It's the people inherently there and how they feel and what they want to do. Like if you, for example, to you, when you talk about. We said, well, what about your character? You're doing these steps with your coach or never. How do you feel about people? How do you feel about other talent? How do you feel threatened? You feel anxious, envious? Do you feel. How do you feel about family? How do you feel about your kid?

Speaker A: You know, well, and I. That's interesting because I have. That has been a. You talk about it being a stop, that has been a stop for me. Because if I go too far down the well I want to achieve for myself route, I go like, well, yeah, but that's sort of unfulfilling. But then if I go to, uh, too much down the altruistic I want to help people route, it's like. But I kind of want to get mine too. And so where I find is that's where that rising tide, like I want to be part of that rising tide, like I want to rise too. I want to do well by doing good. So it, that's where that bridge came from for me. So I like that as a stop. That's a good way to think about that.

Speaker B: It is really, it really is sobering. In that case, it was classic sobering. I mean, I remember him saying, I don't like kids. And I just went, yeah, wow. You know, talk about proof of concept. I think something I realized too, it's at the end of the day, and you've said it beautifully as well, what are we doing? You know, what are we doing? And you clearly are knowing what you do. And then we clearly, my wife and I and the team that we have, which is, are amazing. And you know, we work in multinationally and so we're very, very, uh, you know, grateful for all that and wonderful people, commonality wise. We've done it. Everybody in our team have been through the eight step for themselves, been trained in. I mean, so they get what we're trying to do. But at the end of the day, what are we about? You ask, what's my purpose? Our purpose really to enable those who enable. So it is addressing people who have the capacity to do good. If we can help them do better or do good, then they will do good and be good and make good, however. Right? And so the bottom line, when people come and say, why do we work with you? What are you about? You know, when you're saying, give us a pitch, we don't do the pitch, we just go, what do you want? You know, where are you going with it and what comes out and where it ultimately resonates with us to say, okay, we can do the work is they have something wanna fix, they have a dream they wanna make, or they're flatline on their company or whatever. And behind that are people who are trying to figure something out and all those people responsible underneath whose responsibility they have for those people below. You know, there's middle management and below it there's a consequence. So we're very sensitive to it isn't just a question of they feel good. It's like they're bearing a responsibility and they want to continue its livelihood. It's families. It's whatever. And it's nothing wrong with the dream. Whether it's show business or, you know, whatever. Um, you know, an app that they create or an AI, um, you know, facilitation or something. What is it? It's people trying to survive, people trying to thrive. If they get some help and can do it better, whether it's in the thousands or the mega millions, it's still relative company size. But the commonality is they want to do better, but if they also are better, they will do better. And it's like one of those moments when they realize when they're working with us, they go, uh, oh, it's about us. We're the engine. Come on. You are going to think it, uh, differently. The company will benefit. Let's not look at the company, let's look at you. That's what the first four are there for. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, Mark appreciates this conversation. We only got through half of my questions. Um, but, uh, you did good. No, we did great. And this is powerful for me, too, so I can't wait to get to journaling on this stuff this weekend. But thank you. We will link your company. We will link the book. Look, I recommend people buy it. I went out and bought five copies and have been sending it out. It's very short, easy to get through, and it has a lot of great examples in it. So plug for that, and we'll link everything that we talked about. We'll link some of these songs and stuff so people can click in and see. But, Mark, thank you so much again for coming on the show.

Speaker B: My pleasure. And continue to your, uh, Rising Tide elevation. I love that. That metaphor. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. Uh, appreciate your time as well. Thank you.

Speaker A: And good luck to everybody out there working through the process and figuring yourself out, and I hope it clicks for you.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker A: Hey, folks, one last thing before you go. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to hit subscribe so you can stay up to date with future guests. That's it. Thanks for coming. Go make the most of your business and the people in it.