Tom Gilmartin | Cheat Codes for Creatives

Speaker A: This is oversharing with Mikhail Alphonse.

Speaker B: Tom Gilmartin. We're finally doing it. We're finally doing the podcast. We're finally doing this. And I, I feel like every time I talk to you, I kind of want to like hit record anyway just because there's always some sort of gold that comes out of it. But you know, I've had the opportunity to get to know you really, I, I would say really well over the last year. Um, but for the person that doesn't know you yet, can you just share a little bit about yourself?

Speaker A: Oh, wow. Well, thank you for inviting me in. I feel the same way about you too. We met at usc, I don't even know, about a year and a half ago at a, at a, uh, at a, um, career panel. And congratulations on everything you've launched with Blue Light and the acquisition, everything. So thank you, kudos to you. But also thank you for the invite. But a little bit about me. Uh, let's see. I am someone who spent a career in advertising, um, and then another chapter of a career in Silicon Valley. So spent my youth as someone who grew up in a house where most of the folks in there were like, either in like finance or medical research. And I was just the kid that was always drawing in the corner, you know, and I, uh, would much rather be in the corner with a pen and pencil and a pad of paper than maybe anything else and then learn how to play guitar. So, um, I was that kid in the family tree that was everything and all about creative, where most of the family just didn't know how to connect necessarily with that as early on. Um, but I'm just somebody that I think very, very fortunately was able to parlay that into a career. And it's been the most rewarding career I think I could have ever asked for. Sometimes the most rewarding and sometimes most painful meaning. Uh, as a creative, creative, you know, your heart can get squashed sometimes. But I think very, um, very fortunate have landed in, in that space and learned a lot. Um, and most recently, as you know, um, the latest focus has been really taking a lot of those hard earned lessons and scars and, and translating that into helping a lot of this next generation as they find their footing or find ways to unlock their own paths, uh, and careers in the uh, advertising or creative space.

Speaker B: Yeah. So something that I just learned about you is that you used to play in bands, which is amazing. And did you say that it was an ex girlfriend that came up to you or a friend that was a girl that was playing in another band said, hey, I'm working at this advertising agency, you should check it out. Like I'd really love to learn about that because just even from my own background, I never thought that I'd be in marketing and advertising. And here I am, you know what I mean? So I'd love to hear that from you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean the first band I was in, Shout out to the Hormones with Feet, that was our, our band in uh, high school, ninth grade, uh, m. And at that time it's interesting, I mean, you know, you're sitting there, you're like 14 or 15 years old and you're trying to write a song and the drummer wants to do like 14 second fills and you got a bass player that wants to, you know, have a lead and then you got a singer and then maybe someone else is a singer. Like so early on it you learn how to be an affection or um, on a, a ah, cross functional partner. You know, we say the word cross functional partner right now. Let me rephrase that. It's like, to me, like it's interesting some of the things you learn young as a teenager that you have absolutely no idea that it's going to help you in your career. So sitting in a garage, working with a garage band of a bunch of kids and you're trying to figure out how to make a song and the bass player has a different vision than a drummer and the drummer has a different player vision, uh, than the rhythm guitarist or the lyricist. Um, but you figure it out and it maybe it sounds horrible, but if you're proud of it and you're excited about it, um, so some of those things for me I had no idea were going to be helpful to me as a crib director or even I was singing a bit in that band. Being able to get over your stage fright and go up and sing in from a crowd whether they're into it or not, right? Then you go pitch a client and if that client's like stone faced, you're like, I've been here before, I know how to get through this. And you figure out a way to work the crowd, right? But I love hearing how people land in their careers because it's never like how you'd expect to read it in a career book. There's always some random uh, surprise moment or synchronicity or something that was totally unexpected. And for me, you know, I came up in a household, um, where you know, the track was like going to business or going to medicine or something. And I Was at uh, university. And I was in business school. And I didn't know that I have dyscalcula, which is basically dyslexia for numbers. So here I am in a stats class, uh, in a final, realizing that I knew three questions out of 100, and I'm like, I'm going to get kicked out of this school. So I drew me being crushed by numbers in this blue exam booklet and it was like, I'm going to make it 3D. And I had like perspective. It was a fisheye perspective. And the letters went. Or the numbers went up like four stories above me being crushed like by the weight of it. And I turned it in expecting to get, you know, basically kicked out of the school. School. And I'll never forget the next time I went into class, the professor was like, hey, Gil Martin. And I'm, you know, I'm in a big class, you know, come up here. I'm like, well, this is it. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be walked off campus. And he said, meet me in my office after, um, class today. So I walk over and he said, great, ah, work. You got an F on the exam. Um, but I'm gonna walk you over to a, ah, totally different department because you're just in the wrong school. Um, so I wish I remember the name of that professor, wherever he is. You know, a huge shout out and a thank you because very easily he could have just kicked. Kind of been the uh, the uh, the shoe that kicked me out of the school. But instead he opened my eyes and I end up going into marketing and um, you know, had a follow up conversation with my grandfather who was that business person that said, you do music, you do art, you know, have you ever thought about the career of advertising? And it stuck in there. But I hadn't really thought too much about it. And then the night that you had asked about, I was playing a gig at a bar in Boston. Maybe it was like the Rat or something.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, a girl in another band, um, was saying, you know, have you ever, you know, considered advertising? I was like, I just had a conversation about that. She said, I have an internship at an agency called Hill Holiday. You should come down and, and you know, uh, apply, which I did. And I was able to get in. But never in a million years would I have ever put that together unless some random conversation in a, you know, dark, dingy bar in Boston happened.

Speaker B: That's so incredible because, you know, my experience in, in at least high school, I didn't end up going to college was like, if you did, if you weren't doing well, there was no guidance as you could potentially do well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It was just, you know, it was kind of this checklist of things that you had to do. Um, and being able to have somebody to identify that and then care enough to like, take the extra effort and put you somewhere else. Um, I think it just speaks volumes to, for one, his character. Maybe one day we'll remember and, you know, we'll try and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you think that, that moment. Because, like, what I know about you is that you like, sharing, um, offering resources and helping other people seems to be like part of your nature. Were you always like that and did that one moment with that professor kind of change how you think about, you know, how you interact with people and the value you give to others?

Speaker A: I think so. I, you know, again, I always, I probably have some form of dyslexia, so I know I have dyscalculia. So I always felt like I had to work three times as hard. So, like, another story, um, from the, the uh, trials and tribulations of high school was I was in calculus. And again, being someone, uh, whose numbers like, float all over the place, I didn't know how I was going to get through calculus. So I went to an all boys Catholic school. And the deacon that was our, our teacher, uh, knew I could draw. And he said, hey, Gil Martin, you don't have to do homework. If you do, uh, you know, a funny drawing and make us laugh, then I'll throw it up on the acetate. Which is like, how long ago I went to school. Um, so I would just do like a far side type funny thing, you know, whatever was happening in school or in the city of San Diego. And I didn't have to do homework, which I thought was like, oh man, this is the best thing ever. Right? Until you go to school and college and they're like, hey, you know, like we're going to use all the stuff you learned pre calculus. I'm like, can I draw? No. Um, but I think have being someone where the way my brain learned or the way that I absorb information didn't necessarily fit the mold. I think I, I knew that I had to find my own ways or work potentially a little harder or smarter than, you know, people who were just more efficient in like absorbing information. So I think that lens has always, like, given me a sense of empathy when I see someone that maybe struggling a little bit or like, you know, has the tenacity and the, uh, and the talent and the wherewithal. But maybe they just don't have the bridges or they don't have the tools or they don't have that. To me, that's paramount because there have been so countless people through the course of my career that have, like, extended their hand or their help, and it's been transformational. Like, I can't even remember them all.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, man, it's. That's such a stark contrast to sometimes, maybe not necessarily what I've seen, because that would discredit so many people like you and. And other people, uh, have helped me along the way. But I've also seen the other side, where people are so unwilling to help people, and they think that the value. That their value is in gatekeeping information that can help a whole organization sometimes. And that's really heartbreaking for me. You don't give any of that vibe. And I'm curious as to, like, you know, that first internship that you got, that sort of thing. Like, what were some of those big moments where you're like, oh, man, now looking back, where now you're teaching other people. What were some of those moments that were like, yeah, this is going. This is. That shaped how I interact with people, you know, starting in their career.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I have to say, a lot of it started with my family. I had a grandfather who was friendly with every person, didn't matter where they were. He just became their friend. And at his funeral, it was like the entire town came. Uh, everyone from the people from the diner to the people that worked with. And I think I learned how that approach, um, and my father is very similar as well. But, you know, you're never a stranger if you surround yourself with friends, meaning you care enough about the people that you interact with in life to at least be friendly and learn something about them. So that always has been a. A lens that I try to apply no matter what. What it is, if it's career or not. But I have to say, when I. My first creative job, meaningful, um, one was that shy day. Um, and, you know, that place, uh, I learned so much in four years there, but I also didn't sleep much in those four years. Right. So they called it shy day and night because the expectation was you'd show up every day and every night. And I remember, if I remember correctly, in the welcome packet, it was like, you know, if you don't bother, or if you don't show up on Saturday, don't bother showing up on Sunday. It was kind of the approach Right. Uh, and they're welcome, they're welcome back. But you know, you go there with, all right, I'm going to go and I'm going to grind and I'm going to learn more. In the time there, it's going to be like 10x where I might be somewhere else. And I, when I, when I think about that decision, it was the right decision. At that time I was single. I wanted to get my career off the ground right now. Like the way I value time and balance, like, I, you know, I have a family. I, I, um, wouldn't, I wouldn't make that decision the same type of way. There would be different factors. Right. But when you're asking about some of the influences early on, you know, I had some incredible mentors in that hallway, you know, Incredible. I was a kid fresh out of advertising school. My partner and I had a writing partner, uh, shout out to Neil Levy and uh, I had a creative director shout out to John Soto and Chuck McBride and Todd Grant and Jeff Lebe and Scott Wilde. Some incredible, incredible industry like giants who. They very easily could have dismissed us as a junior team. They could have just said, you don't know what you're doing. And um, oh, yeah, and Eric King too. But to their credit, if we could show up with the ideas and we were willing to put the work in, they treated us like anybody else. And we had swings on some PlayStation spots and Levi's bots and, and things like that where they very easily could have just picked those and said, those are ours. But I think, uh, again, I, I learned a lot from, uh, some really, really strong creative leaders, um, about how to be gracious and to let the best idea or the right idea for that moment win versus, um, using clout or seniority to just kind of push people out of the way.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I don't want to spend too much time on it. But I'm curious as to if you also got the opposite experience from people that were there and how did you break through that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think, you know, in some hallways it is literally a shark tank. So we would have instances where you'd be excited about getting a brief. You're so excited about it, and then you realize that that, uh, you know, brief was meant for your, for your, this one team. And then other people had photocopied the brief and weren't necessarily an assignment, but they were going to gun for the idea too. So, you know, or even a, um, a brief landing on your desk and then it's not there. When you get there, because someone else is like, I will take that. Right. I didn't see it that much. It does exist. But, I mean, look, I feel like one of the blessings and best parts about being in a creative endeavor. I think for the most part, people who chase that dream or build into that body of work, like, appreciate creativity and being around other creative people. And I hope when someone shines because of an idea, they appreciate that, like, versus maybe some other. And again, I haven't been in other businesses where maybe it's just about the bottom line or maybe it's just about, like, the number you're delivering, and maybe that's a little bit more challenging. Um, but, you know, I, I would say that I learned as much from the great human first creative leaders as I did from the folks that maybe didn't fall into that category. So when I started leading teams, I always kept in mind not only the lessons I learned from the great creative directors or the great leaders that treated us with empathy and kindness, but I also always on the other side was like, oh, man, I will never do what that, you know, energy did to me or our team. Uh, I never want to do that. So I, I, you know, you have those two perspectives typically when you're making decisions on a daily basis, especially when you're leading a team.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, before we move on in the conversation, I want to give a big shout out to Jonathan Hansen over here. Um, I should start calling you Jonathan Hansom, because I like this. I don't know, that just came out of nowhere. But, uh, to the listener, if you heard these slack messages going off, so I have these, I have everything on silent, and I forgot that slack makes it through. And I'm like. And you know, he's over here crawling under the camera, making sure that it's off. Like, thank you. The best in Orange County. Anybody that needs any videography is fantastic.

Speaker A: He's looking for an SG to. Looking for an. Anybody has a. Well, uh, loved SG for sale.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Reach out.

Speaker B: Um, so you mentioned that, like, you were really excited to get a brief and you'd have a shot at the idea. And so my vision of this as you're talking about it is very like Mad Men, I guess, like, you'd have, you know, you'd have that big pitch and it's, it could be over a dinner table, and it's just an idea of an angle sort of thing. Today, I would venture. I, I haven't been in the room where that, that type of pitch and that type of Idea is, is like such a big moment, I think, because there's so much content out there now. How have you seen like the formation or the formation of an idea or the creative process change from when you started? And that's a huge question. Yeah, from you started to like today.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, that could be a two hour.

Speaker B: I'll sit back and grab my coffee real quick.

Speaker A: Well, look, I feel so lucky, Truly, to enter, uh, to have entered the industry when I did. So I'm a dinosaur. I got in like, you know, late 90s. And um, at that time we, we truly believe, and I think you still can do this, but we believe that everything we were putting out had the potential to shift culture at a massive level. And there are all these agencies like Wieden and, and um, um, you know, a lot of, a lot of shy too, but they would do a campaign and really from like the bottom of their heart and spirit, it was like, we are going to shift things, we're gonna move things. Um, but I think part of that was because, you know, they were like a handful of channels that if you had a media buy that owned those channels, you pretty much were like on the main stage, um, out of home, you know, radio. Like, we only had, and you know, experiential. We only had a handful of things that we had to dive into. When I started working in a space where we were truly leading like360 or, or like full fledged campaigns. I mean, like, I remember we would be sitting in a conference room. Um, you know, when I worked on Lexus, we, we had like two weeks for the first round of a print campaign. That was the only thing we were working on was like, uh, Lexus brand print.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: So I just remember, partner, where do you want to go today? We'll go and get some, you know, we'll get some breakfast and maybe we'll kick around some ideas and I'll go to Hennessy and Ingalls and go do some visual reference and then, oh man, you know, God, we got a check in next week. We better start cranking. You know, I'm, I'm definitely over exaggerating. I'm sure we had a bunch of other stuff going to, but the uh, the clock gave us time to sit with ideas. And I think at that time the pressure was. I remember we did a campaign for Lexus Hybrid that we were launching, uh, that brand and as an art director, we were doing type treatments. And I think I had like 250 printouts of variations of like one or two typefaces and just looking at them for like three or four days and trying to fine tune and make sure the type was right, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And where you could argue that, you know, does it need to be that in depth and you know, is the kerning gonna really catch the eye of the consumer or whatnot? Um, should we speed through it? But I think probably somewhere in the middle makes sense. Meaning I what I hope doesn't happen with the speed that creatives are forced to work right now. And I also think with like AI and the things that are incredible tools, I'm so excited to see people leveraging them. But I think there is an art to this storytelling technique. There is an art to the artfulness of communication. Um, and some of that does take time and does take extreme focus. And then also it takes like another human saying that's not good because M AI has a tendency. I was just listening to a panel yesterday. Awe and one of the panelists was uh, saying um, you know, I miss working with humans on concepts because if you trust that partner, they'd be like, ah, yeah, I think we can do better.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's cool.

Speaker A: But like, I don't think that's right. Where a lot of times when, when you're working with AI it's going to be like, you're great. This is great. Here's another build. You're great. You know. So I think it's interesting if we start having some of these really powerful tools that can help our ideas get better. Some of the best ways our ideas get better is someone saying that's a bad idea. So uh, how do we make sure we don't lose. Lose that and sometimes having time for those conversations where you don't feel rushed. God. We got brief this morning. We have to show ideas by two. It might be like, well, let's just get through it. Versus are ah, we got a little time. Like is this good enough? Yeah.

Speaker B: That's funny. You talk about a two week turnaround, uh, time like wow, that seems like an eternity. I can't remember the last time we were asked for like an asset in like two weeks. And we have to. They're like different time. M. What do you mean you can't do it in like 45 minutes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What about AI? That's funny that you talk that you mentioned that with. You kind of alluded to the confirmation bias of AI.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And just the other day I, you know, I was asking like um, chat GPT if I should do something in a certain way and they're like, yeah, here's the pros. So it's a net positive win is how it does it. And then I asked it something really ridiculous, like the equivalent of like, sorry, mom, should I send a nude to my co worker? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, um, it went through pros and cons of the situation. I was like, okay, but what would you do? And they said, like, no. I was like, okay. And I said, I told it, like, that was just a test to see if you're just gonna say yes to everything I do because, like, you know, that kind of thing. Um, I feel like a lot of AI will gas you up when you shouldn't.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, or maybe when you need, like, you mentioned another human on the other side. Um, I. I'd love to just, like, give a quick shout out to some of the partners that were like, that you've worked alongside with the people that told you no and brought something extra special out of you.

Speaker A: Wow. I mean, one of them was the panelists I just mentioned, Bob Yarkey, who I worked with at, ah, Facebook and Instagram, who now, I mean, I would check out his stuff on LinkedIn is incredible. Also another person, Kaz, Marisa Leary. Um, folks uh, that I truly trust. Um, and, you know, when you throw an idea out there, you know, I think there's an art to killing an idea with kindness. Um, and they've been master of. But like some of my partners in the past, Neil Levy, uh, Steve o', Brien, um, uh, you know, God, so many, uh, of them over the course of my career, Kim Nguyen, um, but I think, you know, I think it's really important as a creative person. And I think, you know, any creative pursuit, whether you're doing music or you're doing advertising, you're doing, you know, shared, um, creative development. I think the key is surrounding yourself with people that you trust so much with your idea. Because truly, you're. You're putting your heart on the table. Right. If you're doing your job well enough, you're stretching yourself, you know, emotionally, spiritually, ideal, uh, wise to, like, you're gonna feel pretty raw when you put it on there. Yeah. If it's really generic, it's like, hey, here's an idea. But when you really put yourself out there and you're really stretching and you've worked really hard on it, you know, you're putting it in the hands of other people. Now the easiest thing for someone else to do is, but, oh, that's great. Good job. Right. I remember someone that, um, was A, um, leader in an organization I was in said probably the, the cruelest thing you could do for someone you respect and care about is tell them their idea is great when you know it's not. Yeah, yeah, that is, uh, probably one of the cruelest things you can do. And that was Mark Darcy. So shout out to Mark. Um, but I think in what I'm. What he meant by that and the, what I took from that was, you know, it's hard to be a good partner sometimes because you can see the love in someone's eyes and like, oh, this is it. We're, we got it. It's hard to be like, oh, uh, man, no, uh, that, that could offend people or that was done. Or it's off brief, it's off strategy. But you know, there's always a thoughtful way to say, man, there's something in that. But maybe we should flip it on its head and try something over here. Or let's take a look at the brief again. Uh, right. But the last thing you want to do if you care about that person is, uh, see them go up and present that idea internally or especially from the client and have them feel the backlash of the room because of something that you knew inside your head was wrong with that idea, but you're being too polite or kind to say something because ultimately I think it hurts that person tenfold because you could do it in an intimate conversation and find a way to dance around it and make it a little bit better. But how horrifying if that person's in front of an internal check in with all the people they're they care about impressing or, you know, or God forbid, they're in a client meeting and the client is like that. It's totally off strategy. So that was a lesson I definitely learned and try to hold true to it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I recently heard this quote and it's very simple and it's so true that clarity is kindness.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And um, I really taken that to heart because I realized that, you know, sometimes as you mentioned, you see somebody, the love in their eyes, or you just love that person, you don't want to hurt them. And telling them that their idea is bad or they're on the wrong track or something like that, you feel like that would hurt them. But what I noticed is that when you are candid but kind with it and nice with it, you know, they typically appreciate that more. I remember with my, um, my, uh, first co founder at Blue Light Media, we were going through some of the assets that we were creating. And I noticed there was just, like, some inconsistencies that were, um, you know, that we couldn't have as the agency, in my opinion. And I was so nervous to share this with it. I sat on it, and it was like this pit in my stomach. And I was like, dude, for one, I'm not a photographer or graphic designer. And so who am I to even talk to this person about it? And then for two, he was just somebody that I respected and loved, and I did not want to, you know, I didn't want to hurt him. And so, you know, I created this deck. I was like, hey, here's one here. The work that you do, that's, like, fantastic. Here's some of the outputs that have not been so. And here are the specific reasons why. But the thing that I did, because you mentioned in an intimate conversation, and I hope that the listener can maybe take this, is I pulled him out of the office. Cause I wasn't gonna do it in. I, uh, definitely wasn't gonna do it in, like, my office and make it seem like, you know, I'm his boss. And I also didn't want the chance of somebody else hearing it that we worked with, and then, you know, his respect being lost or something of that nature. So we went to coffee, we did it over coffee type of thing. And at the end of it, he's like, bro, I appreciate this so much. Like, thank you. And I, like, for one, I just was so relieved. But for two, just kind of speaks to what you were saying is, like, you know, clarity is kindness, for one. And then for two, like, finding that intimate moment where you can be, you know, um, a little bit more candid with somebody, and then also finding somebody that you trust. And I would. I would say that, you know, he trusted me, uh, he trusted me enough to go in business with me. So there's that. Uh, but he also, you know, but I also trusted him in a moment to, like, not lash out. I was scared, but I trusted that he wouldn't do that. So, yeah, that's a really interesting moment.

Speaker A: Um, I would. Look, I'd love to just add something to that. Yeah, I think that type of thought in a moment, that could be a very, very hard moment. It's a hard conversation, right? I've had hard conversations where someone was giving me information that was hard to hear. And when the thought went into, how am I going to deliver this? Where am I going to deliver this? Meant a lot. So when I've had to have hard conversations, like, I'll fly to another city to do it face to face. You know, I'll sit with someone, we'll go to, um, an outdoor table or, uh, we'll take a walk or something. Right. So I love hearing that because that is something that I've felt the power when it's been the hard conversation being had with me. And I also, when I knew I had to have a hard conversation, it was something that I thought, how can I build up that person with some way that this news or this conversation, it needs to happen, but it doesn't need to happen without some thought. And it doesn't need to happen in a way that we can't build a cushion around that conversation to be respectful or kind. Um, but I, I, I, I always admire leaders that, uh, you know, do that because, you know, being the person that delivers that hard conversation, especially as a leader, like in an organization, like I've been on the other side, I've been laid off, you know, and then I've also had to lay people off.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And sometimes being the person to deliver that news is harder than the person receiving it. Not in every case. Right. So I have empathy for some of those folks too, but I, I, when they have to deliver that news. But, uh, it's a big moment where, where you can either earn someone's respect or lose their respect. If, if you take the time to think about the human that's going to be receiving that feedback or that information, and are you doing enough to think about building some support or at least a moment around that person to, to think about it as just not like, you know, hard info. It's like a human conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so you've worked on some amazing campaigns that I'm a huge fan of. Obviously there's Star wars, and I feel like I've, I've beaten that to death. But the Marvel Mural wars is the one that I'm also really interested in as well, because, correct me if I'm wrong. Were you at Instagram when you did that one?

Speaker A: Well, I was working at Facebook, but we were leaning, uh, it was both Facebook and Instagram, so we were, um, like constantly immersed in, in all of it.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: So, so that was Instagram specific, that campaign.

Speaker B: My initial maybe reaction when I hear somebody's working at Instagram or Facebook, obviously this is going to be like digital and social. Like, how does the idea come about to do like, Mural Wars? This is like out, you know, out of home, I guess you could say. And then, um, and it's not necessarily on the Feed. How do you tie all of those things together for one, and then pitch that to the client and then, you know, get buy in from that? That's, that's a big question as well. But.

Speaker A: Well that's, it's great. I mean the, the thing about it was I, I was recruited to come into Facebook like a long time ago when they were just starting to have a video product, if you can believe that. So for a long period of time, most of the brand communication was just still imagery. M. Um, so they wanted to bring in some creative directors. Um, and there was a handful of us. I think at the time. The creative team that I was a part of was like 18 people, maybe globally. Um, but they needed to start figuring out how to tell some of these stories for our partners that would leverage our platform in a unique way. Um, as opposed to just like taking a TV spot or in theater trailer and popping it on the feed. Um, how could we leverage what we were seeing being super effective on Instagram and then tie the brand story or studio story to it? So the Marvel story was that um, they really wanted to connect um, with at the time, Latinx audience. And um, which, you know, I mentioned earlier, my mother is Mexican American, so spent a lot of time shout out to Chula Vista down in the San uh, Diego area. A lot of time. And uh, the uh, area where my mother grew up, but also just culturally, you know, half my footing in that space. And one of the things that I found beautiful is many times walls tell stories, I think in many cultures, but specifically in that one. Um, and one thing that we noticed was that um, on Instagram at that time, Stop Motion was performing like incredibly well.

Speaker B: So is that an insight that you have from Instagram, getting the information? Got it, got it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that was part of our role. I was on a team called the Creative Shop and we would look at the analytics, we'd look at what was working, we'd work with the product team, but we also were a bunch of ex creatives and strategists and producers. So our role was kind of like have one foot with the agency partners, but one foot in the product teams and one foot with the analytics. So understanding like what was working on the platforms, how was the product uh, being built and then how do we tie it into the stories that are happening in marketing hallways and creative hallways. Um, but to get to that point was a lot of work. Uh, shout out to Kerry Lakin and some of the folks that were there early on because for instance, you know, Disney who is the partner, you know, that we worked with on Marvel. Um, it took a lot of time to get them to understand. And this is early on that the golden trailer, you know, like the 90 second, three minute trailer that works beautifully in a theater is not going to work on a phone.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And you know, right now we all are very used to fragmented content or fast paced content, you know, six to 15 seconds. But a number of years ago that was like, well, how are we going to tell our story? We want to tell our, you know, Captain America story. We uh, want to start with the character narrative and this and, and to the, um, studio partners, uh, credit. It was a lot of meetings figuring out, look, this is how people are absorbing content. Now if we want to bring people into your story, we got to figure out how to get them to actually stop their thumb and pay enough attention to what you're putting out there to bring them into the longer form. So, uh, that Marvel project, um, for Captain America was obviously about Iron man and Captain America going head to head. Right? Um, and the root of that idea and a shout out to the, the team I was working with at that time, the entertainment crew. Um, but I was like, hey, what if we worked with, um, muralists or graffiti artists? Uh, we had, uh, worked with a incredible artist named Haste and his crew and we had, uh, we found a location downtown la, and one side of the building was going to be Cap's side and the other side was going to be Iron Man's side. And working with this group, uh, um, Jebin Berg and, and an entire group that really know that art form, we, over the course of two days did a mural that came to life. You'd paint one motion arm or this, this, this, this, this. Paint over paint over paint over paint paint over paint over paint. We had these, you know, uh, giant cranes that were going up and down, up and down and we had locked off shots. This allowed us to, over the course of two days, tell a stop motion story of these two walls going to battle with each other, you know, and we had to battle like rain. That was happening stuff. But what I was going to say is that the purpose was that when it ultimately landed in feed for Instagram, people were like, oh, wow, that looks cool. That looks like other stuff that I love here. And you know, it was here being Instagram, Instagram and you know, Captain America and this, all the characters coming to life, doing stuff in as graffiti art on a wall, going to war with each other, um, told the story that was not on film. Meaning it didn't look anything like what the, the actual, you know, Marvel piece was going to look like, but it got people talking and it got people interested. And for us, it was a beautiful use of the platform because it was very in line with what was resonating with the stories being told on the platform at that time. But we inserted the Marvel story and it was fingers crossed. We hope it works because we truly believe in this. And thankfully it worked really, really well. We measured, um, intent, like to see the film and all this stuff, and it was, it was very, very strong. But that was one of the first ones where we really proved like, let's break the mold of the golden trailer and let's figure out a way to tell these stories in ways that, stories that are really resonating on Instagram. Um, you know, we can, we can learn from it and, and apply that.

Speaker B: Yeah. And Civil War was one of the best. Cap was the best Captain America movie and up there in my top five Marvel.

Speaker A: And getting to meet the Russo brothers and work with that group was amazing. And they, they were so, uh, generous with us to, um, we didn't work with the talent, uh, specifically, but we offered some suggestions on how they could have the two sets of celebrity, uh, talent battle each other for like, push up contests and all this stuff. So, um, but they, to the Marvel team and the Disney team, they were incredible partners, always were, and really, really kind of helped us break some new ground as far as the way entertainment stories were being told on those platforms.

Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. So now you're spending a lot of time, you know, kind of helping the next generation of creatives and marketers find their footing in their careers. And I'd love to learn about like, kind of from a high level. What does that cohort look like? Um, and what are some of the things that people can take away from that?

Speaker A: Um, well, you know, I, we met at usc, right. We met on a career panel there. And you know, you know, I've been fortunate to work with like LMU and um, taught at Emerson, um, used to teach at unc, now having conversations with nyu, like, incredible places, right? And incredible talent. The people that are coming out of these schools are incredible. And, um, I, I see a level of anxiety right now for a lot of these soon to be grads or recent grads, where, you know, they're struggling to figure out, like, how do I gain some traction or some footing or unlock a door into the industry. And for me, when I graduated from school, like, it really the, the anxiety was less. Am I going to get a job? It was like, am I going to really love the job that I get right versus like no, will I get a job? And one stat that I just recently uh, read was that 40% of college graduates right now, like early college graduates are working in a job that doesn't need a college degree where if you combine that with the average cost of a four year university right now is $240,000. So a lot of these uh, graduates are going to be saddled with debt and um, trying to figure out how to um, how to build themselves out of them. So for me my, my passion right now is helping a lot of this generation figure out how to find their footing, how to find that traction in. Because a lot of times they put an incredible amount of work, you know, and they're the body of work that they have creative, they want to get into creative, I mean their portfolios or their sites or if they want to get into marketing, the projects they've done. Matt. Incredible. But having been a hiring manager for decades and having hired probably hundreds of, of people over the course of my career, it's interesting how quickly you can be dismissed if you haven't put enough time in. Thinking about, we were talking about a little bit earlier personal branding, how you position yourself, how do you choose to uh, showcase your experience, how much are you putting yourself out there? Um, what are the things that you care about? Like I walk through a lot of times with these students or early graduates, a value based exercise. Like, what do you value truly? Where are you going to place your time? Um, what are your non negotiables? Um, work a lot on inner tech. Like how are we wired? You know, you pick up, did you coin that? I don't know where I picked it up. It's just what's your inner tech? Yeah, yeah. Um, but the thought, like if you go to Best Buy and you look at iPhones, like all the iPhones are probably going to be pretty similar. Right. But if you look at 100 candidates, like everyone's gonna be slightly different. But I think it's up to that candidate or that person and mentors or people that partner with them, um, to figure out what are your superpowers, what are the things that make you unique, what makes you stand out so that we can put that at the forefront. So as a hiring manager you get, you're looking at stuff like this fast and very quickly. I think about all the magical people I probably missed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because their stuff wasn't Put together in a way where I saw it like window dressing in a store. Like, you know, like if, if what's in the window isn't going to grab your eye, then you're not going to enter into the store to see what's inside. And I feel for a lot of these students who've spent so much time learning case studies and learning from brands and learning about all these industries and icons, uh, in the industry but they haven't spent any time really looking at and learning about themselves. So a lot of the work that um we do at the um at UM right now is working with that, that group to self explore, understand how their inner tech is wired and then plug that into like the gap or the opportunities in the industry.

Speaker B: Yeah, that personal branding piece is huge. I'm such a huge advocate for that. I honestly credit personal branding to a lot of the six opportunities that I was afforded in my time at Blue Light and you know, the successes to my team for sure. But like the opportunities were there because I was shameless enough to put myself out there type of thing. And so I love that you're sharing that with uh, with you know, your cohort and the people that, that are uh, you know, make the great decision of learning from you.

Speaker A: Yeah, a piece of the, the. I mean look, anybody. I'm always open to have a conversation, doesn't even have to plug into the system or anything. Just like the site is Gilmartin coaching dot com. Uh, there's a way to book uh, some time. I'm always like anybody if you're out there, it doesn't matter what level too. I talk to folks that are in college or early grads or people that have been in the business for a long period of time. Always happy to have a conversation to just share what I can and if there are connections to be had, share those as I, as I can as well. But um, you know, it's not necessarily the easiest business to break into, especially right now. I think I just saw a stat from Glassdoor that said for every entry level position right now within I think it was 24 to 48 hours, there's an average of 500 to a thousand applications to every entry level position at a place that you know, is somewhat well regarded or elite. Right. Um, but I was talking to someone who was a hiring manager at one of those places and he was throwing his arms up because he said 50% of these applications aren't even real humans. Oh yeah. And uh, or real valid candidates. Um, or they are, you know, so manipulated in the way that they've used AI to flesh out their resume to sound just like the job description, that when they actually have the conversation. Conversation. There isn't necessarily a true connection. Yeah. So you have all these folks that truly are probably qualified who could be the right candidate, but they're completely lost in the swirl of this AI, uh, job application process. And one stat that struck me from Forbes was, I think it was something like 78% of jobs being filled right now are being filled because of a human connection.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Somebody knows somebody or someone reached out on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I see that you're connected to so and so. Would you mind. I'm, you know, in the kindness, as we were talking before. Before, the kindness, uh, of someone saying, sure. Like, I'll take 28 seconds out of my day or a minute and a half and just say, hey, this person's looking to connect with someone at this place. Would you mind having a conversation? That's it. You know, the. Like, literally less than two minutes could change the course of somebody's life. But you also have to be, if you're in that mode, willing to put yourself into that motion. And a lot of people are just terrified. Yeah. But, you know, if you put out 100 messages, reach out 100 people, I'm guessing, like, 80 will either say, I'm sorry, I'm too busy, or, like, reach out maybe a little bit later. Or. Sure. Maybe 20% may, um, not get back to you. Or maybe we're like, uh, you know, I have a curt response. But that's very rare.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Very rare. If anything, maybe you don't get an answer back. And I hate. Sometimes my heart drops on LinkedIn because I'll see a message that someone messaged me in, like, 2015.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker A: And I'm like, I didn't mean to not get back to you. I was just busy. Something was probably exploding at work or something was happening. I always reach out and say, hey, this is like a decade late, but I just wanted to say I'm sorry I left you unresponded. Uh, and the hope all's well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But you know what? What that is a signal of is sometimes if you're not getting a message back, it's not because they think less of you or, you know, you're not talented enough. It's just someone's dealing with their own stuff in the hallways. Yeah.

Speaker B: So, man, I know you to be as incredible, incredibly helpful person. Like, and sometimes you deliver so much value where I'm Just like, how do I, uh, repay this? So I'm excited to at least buy you a sandwich in a little bit here.

Speaker A: I'm looking forward to that sandwich. But even just, I mean, what I appreciate is the invite today, one to just learn a little bit more about you too, and get to see Blue Light, which is amazing. Um, we can share some Star wars nerd Dom too. Um, but, you know, I think I appreciate you giving me an opportunity to talk about this passion that I have to help this next generation of creative and marketing students. And also, truth be told, one of the things that's like, really been, uh, inspiring to me is having conversations with the parents. And I know. Congratulations on the second. Oh, thank you. Yeah, Um, I have three now who are, you know, got two of them that are taller than me now, and we're starting to have some of these conversations about what, what is their future path and where do they go? And I'm so proud of all of them in so many different ways and seeing them flourish in different ways too. But as a parent trying to figure out how do they, what do you do to help them find their way and what's the best opportunity for them? And you know, a lot of these parents, as I was talking about before with students who they have seen grow up and maybe they've even invested in like, you know, elementary school and then middle school and then high school and then college, and many times that quarter million dollars is from their pocket or even a third of parents right now are pulling from 401k or from savings to put their kids in school. But what I was going to say is that, uh, what has been eye, uh, opening too, is the anxiety. Not just on the students level, um, but also on the parents who care so deeply about their kid, of course, and their future. And it's really important to me too, to figure out ways to provide that partnership because again, there's, you know, I think many times those family units are partnership and the parents really want that candidate, uh, or kid to succeed too. And, and you know what? I, if I hadn't been in the creative industry for the last 30 years, uh, you know, the advice, and especially I would say, especially in the last five or six, the advice that I'd be giving my own kid might be totally outdated. Yeah. And not right. So inadvertently I might be giving them advice on how to land a job that was going to make them stick out and actually not land the job.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So that's been really important to me. And a big part of it so I've loved it and uh, appreciate you allowing me to one, talk about the story of getting here, but also um, talk about the passion of helping other people find their own paths and their own stories.

Speaker B: Of course, um, you did mention the site, if you wouldn't mind plugging again. So if somebody wanted to connect with you, where else can they find you?

Speaker A: Well, great. Well, I think the site itself is gilmartincoaching, uh.com and that you can go in and just see everything. We do cohorts, uh, we also do one on one coaching, uh, some incredible students right now or recent grads that I'm working with as well. And then also, you know, if you're a university or organization, um, doing a lot of sessions where we go on campus and we work with a large group and, and give them kind of a five step method of not only self exploration, working on the usp, but then really applying that branding throughout all the materials, whether that's the uh, LinkedIn or the sites, and then tons and tons of interview prep. But I'm really also incredibly driven to not only have people arrive in the industry but then thrive in the industry. So some of the lessons that I learned early on are you might have a creative director that's incredible at building stories and like and um, building brand metrics and all this stuff. But as a people manager, absolutely atrocious. Right. And no fault of their own. It's just not how they're wired or maybe not where they're prior. It is. So I think helping this generation learn how to have their hands on the steering wheel of their own career a little bit. How do they formulate and guide the one on ones where they kind of take control of the one on one? Yeah. What are the goals that they're aligning with their manager? What are the four goals I should work on in the next six months so that I drive the right impact for you and the team. Uh, like how are we being calibrated? Is there a rubric for every level of the organization? What level am I and what or what things do I need to know that I have to deliver to not only meet all, but exceed or greatly exceed or you know, redefine those uh, ratings? Um, too often I think people, especially in this younger generation, just show up being appreciative of having a role. But you have to understand this generation of, you know, recent, uh, grads, I don't know, 21 to 25. Right. Like as someone who's been in the industry for a while, they have the superpower, the secret sauce. Because that's typically the audience every brand wants to talk to. So, uh, giving them the confidence to understand that there's a reason why they're in their hallway and they should have the voice to speak up. Because someone who has been in the industry for a long period of time, who might have the stature because of a name on the door or title, but they may not have the insight. And I think that's what this generation has to realize is they should have the confidence to speak up and showcase that insight. They should be dabbling with all the AI tools. They don't have to be super proficient, but just play with this. Because a lot of the folks that are in that, in those positions that have been in there for a long period of time, they've been too busy just doing the career like balancing the org or budgets or strategy or whatever it is. Q4 numbers they got to hit. And that this new generation can come in and fill a gap that's there. But at the same time, the last situation you want to be in as, and this happened to me, where you work really, really hard for six months and you're having one on ones with your manager and the manager is like, super nice, like, hey, you know, how was the week? It was great. What'd you do? It was great. Cool. The summer's awesome. Yeah, this is great. Okay, we'll see you next week. And you're like, all right. And then you have like 20 of those meetings and then your review comes out. They're like, well, you know, unfortunately, you know, really weren't able to work on anything that really stuck out in the uh. And like, wait, I did. I was working on these 15 things and I didn't know like, where I should be applying it. Where if I had learned early on of like, no, like be in control of that one on one, sit with that person and say, hey, let's outline four goals. And then every week, hey, this is where I'm at at this goal. And this is why. And always have an open document on your, on your desktop with, okay, I've increased engagement by 15%. I noted that. Oh, I just helped unlock a totally new client that's going to bring in another, ah, million dollars in revenue for our group. Oh, that's great. So that you can help that manager. Because again, maybe it's not their strong suit, but you give them a cheat sheet for when there is that review and they have to work with other managers to figure out who gets the best rating. You're giving them a play card. Ah. Oh, wow. This person hit 13% increased engagement. They brought in three new clients. They raised their hand for this very important initiative that we know as a leadership is, is paramount to our success. But without the foresight, you may be totally ghosted. You literally, all that work might just be ghosted and you could be left behind. So I'm really passionate, not only helping people get in, but what's their once they're in thrive in, um, and I think, um, having some of the insight, I mean, I call it the cheat code, you know, like career cheat code or, uh, an unfair insight advantage. It's just because some of us, you know, who have been in it for so many years and so many rounds, like what just comes natural to us is avoid that minefield or avoid that pothole, you know, may not be something that's on someone's radar. And hopefully with the work to be done, we can help people either, you know, lose years on their career or, or maybe, um, you know, some painful moments. Um, so, yeah, that's, that's what gets me up in the morning, gets me excited.

Speaker B: So I love that. Tom, thank you so much for your time and, um, to the listener, thank you so much for your time and attention and the viewer. Uh, if you love the episode, we would dig a five star review. If you didn't like it that much, feel free to stick it to us. But subscribe anyway because we're going to have a ton of incredible people just like Tom Gilmartin back on the show.

Speaker A: Well, thank you again. Much appreciate it.

Speaker B: That was tight. Good. Keep that. That was tight.

Speaker A: This is Oversharing with Mikhail Alon. Uh, Sam.